Consulmaker II: the Pyrrhic War - Game over.

[Nathanael]

Does anyone else find it strange that nate claimed VT instead of Roman Senator?

omg.

Is my role in any way different from a VT? no. is there any point claiming anything other than VT? no. is there anything more stupid than asking "why did he claim VT instead roman senator"?. yes, but not many things.


I have about 8 hours more to live.
And everybody is either scum or has gone crazy.
We were quite lucky in the beginning, but we will lose this if some of you don't wake up.


Can we PLEASE lynch Parama? He is such obvious scum and everybody knows it, and still you execute me? wow!
@everybody: WHAT EXACTLY DID PARAMA DO TO MAKE YOU FEEL HIM TOWN? has he contributed ANYTHING at all?

[The Fonz]

The VT thing isn't anything. Just like it wasn't when ribwich made the same observation on day one.

Feysal's point about Nate getting people to state whether they are for or against a Kat lynch is a pretty good one. Though of course it only applies to the first veto and resubmission.

@Magua, assume I veto Nate and you get online before Sens. Who would you execute?

@Nate: Not a recent game I'm afraid (in fact, I went looking for it and couldn't find it, which means it was likely lost in the crash of 2008- very little from 2007 survives) which means it's even older than I'd remembered it being (I thought it was 2009 or something). It was something that really stuck in my memory though, kinda like Kublai Khan's miller gambit or the setup of Space Monkey Mafia. The way the first thing he said in the QT night one was 'OK guys, that should have pretty much guaranteed I get investigated.' I've seen lesser examples in a few games where I've had access to the scum QT (such as backup modding)- where scum take the position that they want the cop to investigate the GF, and indeed on certain occasions even leave him alive specifically so he investigates the godfather. And of course, you will remember how useful Vi getting investigated as Godfather was in our just-finished game.

I will make two points. One, I'm writing an MD article on gambits at the moment, so it was kind of fresh in my mind. Secondly, people who make 'Fonz knows too much' arguments on the basis of me pointing out the various reasons for disbelieving someone who's already a proven liar can burn in hell. Did you look at that Jack game he linked where he fakeclaimed as town? When Jack gambits as town, there's usually a very specific objective he has in mind. The supposed 'payoff' he announced from his gambit here was nebulous and wifomy.

[Feysal]

I'm not following this at all - because it would be exactly what you said. Instead of Nat getting the bullet you'd get the bullet.

Making Nathanael Tribune would have made him immune to execution. This would have forced SensFan out of tunneling and to look for another suspect. I voted Nathanael first, and SensFan threatened me in his next post. I could not and did not predict that.

Well, of course, Nat would veto that. So, all this would do in practicality is make sure neither you nor Nat could be lynched.

Not according to his latest posts. Nathanael apparently finds me scummy, perhaps because of the reasons Shanba posted, or he thinks I am looking for town credit for defending him. It should be obvious I am not. I was already accused of doing the same with Katsuki, and I know perfectly well I'm not making myself look any better by continuing this. I've said I consider defending someone to be a null tell, and I will not ask permission or apologize for defending my town reads. Someone might argue I'm trying to look better by saying this, like reckoner said to SensFan in #469. That's up to you. I am simply playing to the best of my ability.

Which does ??? for seeing if Sens is town. Because, I'd eat a hat on top of everything else if this was a bus.

I said nothing about seeing whether SensFan was town. I said making Nathanael Tribune would force SensFan out of tunnling on him, and it did. I did not know I would be his second option until he threatened me in his next post, and now I do.

@Feysal:

If we weren't going to execute Nathanael or Parama today, who would you want executed?

SpyreX. I have reason to believe nearly everyone else town, and I never got over the scummy feeling I got from him pushing the Katsuki execution. If I can manage the time before the execution, I'll try to put together something on SpyreX.

For the record, Shanba was another I had doubts about, but I'm feeling rather better about him recently.

Feysal's posts make my head hurt. His main agenda is to get parama lynched, not save nate. My suspicion is growing of him after his last few posts. What he does tomorrow is going to be very key.

I am trying to do both at the same time, defending Nathanael while offering Parama as an alternative execution. I am using my defense of Nathanael as a means to attack Parama for his bad case on him, and offering an alternative execution would make my defense of Nathanael that much more likely to succeed.

That said, I really can't do better to defend Nathanael. Apparently everyone in power agrees with the execution. So, all I have left to do today is to compile my case on Parama as promised, and maybe SpyreX if I have enough time. I believe they are our final two scum.

[The Fonz]

What's giving me pause here is it really looks like Magua might be trying to lurk through today and let Sensfan take the heat for a town execution, which obviously gives me pause on Nate, but would also give me pause on SpyreX because I really don't think he was scum with Katsuki. I do not support a Parama execution under any circumstances today, so that would mean if I did veto Nate, I'd probably end up on you, and that brings us full circle because if I had a straight choice between you and Nate, I'd want Nate dead- with the VT claim at least partly factoring into that. I suppose Shanba would be a decent execution, but I don't know if either consul has any interest in that.

[Parama]

Does anyone else find it strange that nate claimed VT instead of Roman Senator?

There are no words to express how bad this is.
So instead, have some smilies.

[Feysal]

Here it comes, the grand case of why Parama is scum.

I know some of these things don't mean much by themselves, but there is such a massive number of them that they start to look indicative of scum. And there are some tells I consider pretty strong too.

For starters, some relational tells.

RELATIONAL TELLS

Another strategy thought: best picks in the future may very well be scummy-VI'ish type players (or at least one). People who are easy mislynch targets for scum and who might reveal info in their choices.

As a scummy-VI btw I want to be a consul :DDDD

Here it begins. Jack suggests making scummy-VI players into Consuls, and chesskid3 is there to ask for Consulship, claiming to be scummy-VI.

@mod:find a replacement for chesskid (or me)

Here we have Jack expressing his displeasure with chesskid3, during his fight with SensFan. Of course, he could simply be posing, since it would be townish to be angry about spamming the thread. But, threatening to replace out is rather extreme to be posing. Why would Jack be this upset with chesskid3 if he was town? Scum would thank their lucky stars for a townie making himself into a potential mislynch like chesskid3 was doing. They would maybe make a half-hearted rebuke, not demand for that player to be replaced with a threat of replacing out themselves. To me, this is a strong indicator that they were scum together, and Jack was upset with his teammate failing in his play.

Chesskid and Sens are town. That's not a good thing though

Again Sens, I understand your frustration at Chesskid3's incredible usefulness, but even though he's a twat he's still town. Bad, annoying, frustrating town, but he is. You're town too, do the right thing and off someone who has actual odds at being scum.

@Chess: Sorry pumpkin, but even though you claim to be unstable meta-wise, you're predictable. Stop experimenting and start playing.

Well, the bad thing is I can't read Parama AFAIK
The good thing is that Chess was so obvtown that I wont have to

Also, Parama is the most obv-town player in the game FFS.

Meta.
Chesskid was obv-town, he always, ALWAYS play like that as town.
Heck, a cop could investigate him and if he gets a guilty I'd call him most likely insane.

Five times. Five times dramonic calls chesskid3 or Parama town. Does this look like scum defending a partner to anyone else? To me it does. And as if that were not enough...

Whee, dramonic's reads in 224 are mostly mine backwards! He's probably town

This has got to be one of the silliest reasons I've ever seen for giving someone a town read. After this, when dramonic and reckoner have their distancing fight on page 21, Parama is in the middle of it, taking dramonic's side.

And then, the best part:

I don't understand why people think one of the consuls is scum. Jack is obvtown for claiming in the first place and ribwich is obvtown for ccing. Town CAN lie y'know.

What pro-scum reason would there be for lying about being consulmaker?

Consul picks are bad, both consulmakers are still town, etc.

Jacktown claims consulmaker to cover for the real consulmaker and try to attract a kill as a VT.
Ribwichtown the idiot ccs because he is unable to process this simple thought process and ruins the entire point of Jack's claim.
That Nath doesn't even try and consider this option FROM HIS POSITION shows that he's aiming towards the dichotomy and is scum trying to set up two mislynches based on claims alone. Even a 3rd grader has enough of the brain to come up with the solution, "Oooh they could both be town right? right? Riiiight?"

Parama was defending Jack with his theory of both Consulmaker claimants being town, even after Jack had been caught lying. His explanation for why they would both be town is horrible. And what do you know?

Who out of {Jack, ribwich} do you think is the real consulmaker?

Ribwich, but Jack ain't scum sooooooooooo go figure.

I found this while doing a reread of chesskid3. Somehow, he thinks Jack is town, even though he believes ribwich is the true Consulmaker. This is very interesting. Two players from this slot have both said they thought Jack was town.

Finally, there is something I have no quote for, since the point is about something Parama has never done. Despite believing Jack was town he never tried to defend him again, and he has never acknowledged Jack flipping scum, or updated his reads in response to that.

So much for relational tells. Both chesskid3 and Parama have interacted with known scum in ways that make the slot look like scum with them. Both of them believing that both Consulmaker claimants were town looks particularly damning. Next up, scumhunting, or more accurately a profound lack of scumhunting.

SCUMHUNTING

Rabies is scum
Primate is town
Jack is town
ribwich is town
Lowell is town
Nathanael is scum
SensFan is town
Mert is town
chamber is scum

SpyreX is scum

dramonic is town

scotmany is scum

Powerrox is scotmany is scum
Reck is scum

This was the first and last time I've seen Parama produce reads. I've never seen him update any of his stances in response to flips. When dramonic flipped scum, he acknowledged it in one post, and continued to suspect scotmany12 and me, the only two players who had voiced suspicion of both dramonic and reckoner being scum. When Jack flipped scum, he never acknowledged it at all, and he continues to think Nathanael is scum. Now about his case on Nathanael, he had to be asked three times to explain it, and he refused at first and answered only the next day. I've already said what I think about that case in great detail in my post #1322, and I'm not going to repeat all that. Delaying in making his case was not in the least bit townish, and the case itself was so bad and hypocritical that I can only consider it scummy.

Parama gave reasons for most of his early reads of course, flimsy as first day reasons often are, and I find it all the more suspicious that he still sticks to those reads. One reason in particular was interesting, since it is an inconsistency. Nathanael was supposedly scum for wanting to execute one of the Consulmaker claimants. He was not the only one, scotmany12 and Lowell had said the same thing before, Lowell even worded it rather oddly as "We kill them, right? What's hard about this?" Nathanael and scotmany12 got scum reads from Parama, Lowell did not. Parama has never explained why he gave Lowell a town read, either in this or any other post.

Ribwich [5] (Nathanael, Lowell, Ribwich, Magua, Jack)

BTW at least 2 scum voting Rib here, Nath is one and Jack may be the other.

Well if I had to pick 2 from that wagon...
ribwich is confirmed town
Nathanael is scum
Magua (Katsuki) is not scum with Nathanael
Lowell is not scum with Nathanael

so it must be Jack.
And there are 2 scum on your tribune wagon btw.

Hmm now that I'm rethinking... there's probably 2 scum left, maaaaaybe 3 but it's less likely, so the scum probably aren't voting together on the tribune wagon.
So Jack probably isn't scum since Nathanael is.

This is the last bit of scumhunting Parama has done, some feeble wagon analysis. Somehow, the conclusions he reaches are exactly the same as his initial reads. And after this, Parama has never mentioned Jack again. He has never acknowledged him flipping scum, or updated his read of Nathanael in response.

If you look through his posts for scumhunting, you will find nothing else. He just sits there, taking jabs at his original scum suspects, over and over, never making arguments, never responding to arguments other than to call people scummy, never asking questions or doing anything else remotely useful.

There it is. More than enough reasons for me to believe Parama is scum. I have an additional reason for wanting him dead, and that is information. Both SensFan and Nathanael wanted him dead on the first day, and Parama flipping scum would go a long way to clear both of them. To name a selfish reason, it could also help me establish some credit for my own scumhunting.

As I said, my candidate for being Parama's last scum partner is SpyreX. I'll try to write a case on him next, hopefully before an execution happens. But first, I need to ask a question. Why would you not support Parama being executed, The Fonz? Or is it just that it is me and Nathanael, both of us your suspects, who are most strongly in favor of Parama being executed? Read through my case please, and tell me if there is any reason not to execute Parama based on his and chesskid3's play alone.

[Parama]

Scumbuddies never call each other obvtown if nobody else is calling either of them obvtown.
There goes half your case.
Also I've done plenty of scumhunting, like catching you.

[Feysal]

Scumbuddies never call each other obvtown if nobody else is calling either of them obvtown.
There goes half your case.

Yeah right. In my experience scum do it any time they think they can get away with it. And for the record, there were others calling chesskid3 town. Primate, SpyreX, inHimshallibe.

Also I've done plenty of scumhunting, like catching you.

All you've ever done regarding me is call my slot scum since before I even replaced in. You have never, ever explained why, you just want me executed.

I looked back, and saw SensFan posted his execution more than two days ago. I suppose that means the execution cannot be stopped now, and if I am to finish a case on SpyreX, I've got to hurry.

[The Fonz]

Here it begins. Jack suggests making scummy-VI players into Consuls, and chesskid3 is there to ask for Consulship, claiming to be scummy-VI.

I don't think this is an associational tell at all. Scum would want dumbass town consuls. The reason he suggests these players is 'to get a better read on them' - ie, so he can scapegoat them when they execute town.

@mod:find a replacement for chesskid (or me)

Here we have Jack expressing his displeasure with chesskid3, during his fight with SensFan. Of course, he could simply be posing, since it would be townish to be angry about spamming the thread. But, threatening to replace out is rather extreme to be posing.

Yeah, so it says Jack found chesskid unbearable irritating. Big so what?

Chesskid and Sens are town. That's not a good thing though

Again Sens, I understand your frustration at Chesskid3's incredible usefulness, but even though he's a twat he's still town. Bad, annoying, frustrating town, but he is. You're town too, do the right thing and off someone who has actual odds at being scum.

Because scum never, ever buddy up to bad town to get them onside. Dram saying Sens is town is actually more interesting there.

Heck, a cop could investigate him and if he gets a guilty I'd call him most likely insane.

Five times. Five times dramonic calls chesskid3 or Parama town. Does this look like scum defending a partner to anyone else? To me it does. And as if that were not enough...

No, it very much does not. Parama exagerrated with 'never' but it's pretty rare for scum to call their partners obvtown unless they look obvtown in general.

Whee, dramonic's reads in 224 are mostly mine backwards! He's probably town

This has got to be one of the silliest reasons I've ever seen for giving someone a town read. After this, when dramonic and reckoner have their distancing fight on page 21, Parama is in the middle of it, taking dramonic's side.

Right. Do you think taking one side or other in a distancing fight is a good thing for scum to do? The more people paying attention to it, the more chance of one of the distancers actually dying.

And then, the best part:

Ribwichtown the idiot ccs because he is unable to process this simple thought process and ruins the entire point of Jack's claim.

Yeah, and Nate's totally innocent in that regard.

That Nath doesn't even try and consider this option FROM HIS POSITION shows that he's aiming towards the dichotomy and is scum trying to set up two mislynches based on claims alone. Even a 3rd grader has enough of the brain to come up with the solution, "Oooh they could both be town right? right? Riiiight?"

Parama was defending Jack with his theory of both Consulmaker claimants being town, even after Jack had been caught lying. His explanation for why they would both be town is horrible. And what do you know?

Not exactly a shining example of rational town though, agreed. But it really feels like you're making out like defending Jack is scummy when it suits you, and not when it's not. Parama looks more sincere in his defence of Jack (thought the gambit itself was townish) than Nate (did a 180 when things started to look dicey for scum). You argue that it would have been 'more convenient' for scum to bus Jack on day three. This really feels like an argument built on a house of cards. You're using it to defend Nate, but don't apply the same standard to Parama- arguing that Nate isn't scum because scum would have bussed, but Parama is scum because he defended Jack.

All of this feels circumstantial, and the town explanation feels as likely or more than the scum motivation you posited. For someone who's claiming Sens decided Nate was scum then looks at every action through that prism, you seem to be doing a lot of it yourself here. And chesskid's actions still make much more sense from a town than a scum POV.

[Parama]

Hey Feysal! inHim and Primate both flipped town! There goes your argument... AGAIN!

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Nathanael, Roman Senator, has been executed by SensFan.

It is now Night 5. Deadline is Friday 16:40 GMT.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Tragedy has struck for

Feysal, Roman Senator

. The newly appointed Consul didn't get to enjoy having reached the pinnacle of Roman society very long.

On the upside, his reign did see the death of that devilish orator,

SpyreX, Cineas, 2-Shot Rolecop

.

Scotmany12 is your dictator in this hour of need.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Tribunal Deadline is next Friday 15:10 GMT.

To speed things along I have decided that if there's a majority vote for one candidate, he will be elected Tribune immediately.

[Parama]

...

vote: ribwich

[ribwich]

vote: ribwich

I wanted Feysal tribune so that we could finally get Parama killed, but it looks like scot will have to do it alone.

[Magua]

VOTE: Ribwich

Interested in Parama saying more than "..." at this juncture.

[The Fonz]

Vote: Ribwich

Sens' argument from yesterday makes some sense. Gonna re-read spyre for connections.

[SensFan]

And that's that, I guess. Fonz, were you aware you were hammering rib?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Ribwich has been elected your Tribune.

[ribwich]

Fonz, I thought you had a fairly strong town read on Parama. Why would you want someone that wants him dead to be tribune?

[The Fonz]

And that's that, I guess. Fonz, were you aware you were hammering rib?

No, actually. That said, I don't particularly regret it. We're down to few enough players that your argument from yesterday holds greater weight.

Fonz, I thought you had a fairly strong town read on Parama. Why would you want someone that wants him dead to be tribune?

1) I wasn't particularly aware of you hating on Parama? Nate and Feysal, sure. You?
2) Feysal/Nate flips obviously make me less sure on Parama, though I'm still leaning town.
3) See above: with only a pool of five lynchables, I don't think it's a good idea to completely rule anyone else out.

Incidentally, after yesterday I have a pretty strong town read on Sens. I'd like to see a Magua or Shanba lynch today.

[ribwich]

Really? I thought it was pretty clear that Parama has been on the top of my suspects list for a long time now. Two posts before you voted for me I even said that I wanted him dead.

[ribwich]

I don't think Sens' argument holds as much weight now though with Spy being dead. There's most likely only one of them left alive, so there's no worry about a scum tribune saving his buddy.

[Magua]

Scum tribune still means we're not executing scum that day. And, at this point, there's really not much use in having a tribune at all.

[The Fonz]

Rib, I think it's mostly been a case of that I've been ignoring you, since you can't be scum but you don't strike me as a brilliant scumhunter. I just kinda scanned the thread today, got in my vote, then went off to start reading. I think I'd probably vote you anyway though, since I believe in my ability to convince Scot.

Do answer me this though. Do you really expect a scum player to deliberately antagonise a town tribune the way chesskid did to Sens? I still think it makes more sense as a town player with a genuine scumread on sens and a trollish way of scumhunting. Obv at this point, we can pretty much bury the bus possibility.