Mini 1113 - Brotherhood of the Wolf Mafia

[Mariyta]

SC would be my top read at the moment, already told you why. Being passive, latching onto others, etc.

I didn't see this on my re-read. Can you provide post#s or examples, please?

[UncertainKitten]

Maybe when I have time, which I won't have today. I would guess there MIGHT be something in my ISO. Not sure.

[Untrod Tripod]

UT improved a lot but then disappeared, which is kinda lame. So, sure, let's put UT in second for now.

Since the AGM/Zang claim, all that's really happened, imo, is
-mudslinging
-LMP made a bullshit case on me
-Mariyta sheeped it

I'd rather not get involved in the mudslinging. Also, I kind of doubt I'm going to change LMP's mind, considering that the case is based on purposefully misreading/misrepresenting things I said.

oh, @mina

I agree that his sheepish unvote of UK was bad (and he ignored my question about what changed his read on UncertainKitten besides everyone completely laughing his vote off)

What happened was when I originally started my read I didn't read UK's ISO very carefully. When I went back and read her ISO more carefully I realized I was completely wrong in my read of her.

[Mariyta]

-Mariyta sheeped it

I like how you just write off my vote so you don't actually have to answer the points I made against you. Sheeping does not apply in this case. Sheeping is following blindly. I did not follow blindly. I agreed with him after I did my own read.

[Untrod Tripod]

-Mariyta sheeped it

I like how you just write off my vote so you don't actually have to answer the points I made against you. Sheeping does not apply in this case. Sheeping is following blindly. I did not follow blindly. I agreed with him after I did my own read.

Fine, let's look at your "read".

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UT: Don't like the "I don't want to discuss theory" deflection from ISO#4

I don't like theory discussions. In my experience I've never seen them benefit town. They can really easily end up as town vs. town getting into arguments about playstyle, and it's really easy for scum to take a playstyle argument and try to argue that it makes a town player scummy. The thing is, it wasn't deflection. I refuted a point that had been brought against me and said "but I really don't want to get into a theory discussion. I'll just pull out the quote.

Also, early bandwagoning is not the same thing as thinking it's still RVS. I'd rather not devolve into a theory discussion now though, that won't do us any good at all.

You see, it's not deflecting an argument, I disagreed with the assertion that early bandwagoning is the same as trying to RVS vote. I then said I would prefer for this to not get into a theory discussion. See above.

or the "angry playstyles make me clam up" excuse in ISO#5;

You're right. I don't know my own preferences. I can get caught up in internet flame wars really easily and I tend to just not say anything to avoid acting like an asshole. But thanks for calling that scummy. Really.

ISO#6 looks good on the outside, but once you delve deeper (which I never did when I first read it), you find some nasty little surprises. First, there's the "Reck's claim is very odd" comment. Well, duh. It's a miller claim

Sigh...let's pull out the Reck claim.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 23&t=15776

We caught scum. Page one.
We then lynched scum lovers from RVS wagon analysis. And caught the entire scumteam D1.

"We"? TRY RECK & PARAMA, BUT MOSTLY RECK, BECAUSE HE IS AWESOME.

Sorry guys, we didn't realize the game had started.

So how about this.

We are a miller

.

Don't forget, this was Reck's first post in the game. I don't like someone claiming miller in their FIRST POST. I don't know what to make of it. It's weird and I don't like it. I'm not sure if it makes them scum, but I find it weird to say "oh, Reck claimed miller in their first post in the game, and then ragequit. That has to be legit".

Then there's this:

For point 2, what the fuck? If I were scum, why would my scum buddies voice suspicion of me but not vote? That would look super bad if either of us got lynched.

Distancing is the obvious answer. Scum do it all the time. Like, ALL the time. WIFOM is a scum's best friend in many cases.

The assertion that people voicing suspicion of me early in Day 1 but not voting for me makes me scum is bad logic. Let's put it in the form of a syllogism

Many people have voiced suspicion of UT
Not all of those people are voting for UT
Therefore UT is scum

Yeah...not a real strong argument there. Look, I'm not saying that it's not something that would be important on say, Day 4, but early in Day 1 its a bullshit argument to make, especially when it was pretty much all you had.

The logical explanation for why a player would have suspicion on them but few votes is because the player isn't doing anything all that scummy.

If the player was doing nothing scummy, no one would accuse them of being scummy. It may just be that others are even scummier, so they got lucky w/ votes.

By the way, the entire quote is

The logical explanation for why a player would have suspicion on them but few votes is because the player isn't doing anything all that scummy. Trying to extrapolate connections between players with so little evidence is weird, paranoid and anti-town.

The rest of the quote is kind of important. My reasoning is this: You are asserting that because many people voiced some suspicion of me for lurking but did not vote, I must be scum. I assert that because many people voiced some suspicion of me for lurking but did not vote, that must be because I'm just not high enough on their scumlists to warrant a vote. Your explanation draws connections that simply aren't there. Which is what I said in the part of the quote you left out.

Then you get the sacrificial "Lynch me if you must" comment in ISO#7.

What? Oh, you mean this.

UT really needs to die though.

Why? Can you provide any reasoning for that beyond "he's scummy" and "more people aren't voting for him"? I mean, I think if we lynched me it would probably provide the town with some good info, but I'd prefer to help the town in other ways.

Because yeah, that's not at all what that means. The real point of that was "you're not providing an argument at all", not "plz lynch me!". My point was more that lynching me would make some players look bad for pushing it without having any real argument behind it.

Hey, look. Next we get a change of heart and a "My vote was bad" comment

. It was. I guess it'd be more pro-town to just push bad lynches and never own up to making mistakes. Right?

Explanation for Zang vote was meh. The last part was decent, but the first two sentences contradict each other. Then he moves his vote to SC (surprise surprise) for whom his case is just plain shite.

Ok, I'll give you this one, I wrote that extremely unclearly.

Not in love of Zang's posting style, but I promise that what bugs me isn't his style. His strategy of only posting quotes and responding to them with one-liners (often asking pointless questions) strikes me as fluffy.

Using a lot of quotes doesn't bother me and asking questions doesn't bother me. I don't love reading it, but what can you do. What I don't like is that his content is extremely poor. The questions he asks rarely seem proactive and he seems to hide behind quote walls and pads his post total by "asking questions". Also you seemed to like my case on Zang just fine earlier.

I'm gonna put my money where my mouth is.

UNVOTE: CD, VOTE: Zang

Reasons (so you don't miss them): Lack of any serious attempt at scum hunting; poses meaningless questions and fluffs his posts with quotes and useless drivel. I'll include UT's comments, as well, and I'll throw in an OMGUS for good measure.

P-edit: Because SC essentially said the same thing in different words, only you went overboard with an "OMGGUYZ, look at this! It's soooooo creepy!"

I don't see the problem with Kats' comment.

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Ok maybe sheeping was not the correct term to use, but I found it weird that you had expressed some suspicion of me earlier in the day, dropped your vote on me, followed me onto the Zang wagon stating that you agreed with my case on him, and then took a 180 on me following LMP posting a case on me and and made your own WHICH USED MY ARGUMENT AGAINST ZANG AS A POINT AGAINST ME and moved your vote back to me. It seemed like you said to yourself "oh, I can probably get back on this mislynch pretty easily without anyone noticing. I dunno if it's sheeping, exactly, but it definitely seemed like you were trying to ride on LMP's coattails in voting for me.

[CooLDoG]

Unvote
Vote: CooLDoG

OMG, OMFG! I can't believe the reasoning behind this post. It is so strong that I'm almost compelled to vote for the same person. Give me a break. Is this the best you can do? Honestly?

I don't feel comfortable on the SC wagon. Its just a strange feeling. In part due to UK. For some reason (don't ask me to explain) I get a funny vibe from her. I can't put my finger on it.

I find zang not posting after his neighbor claimed. I get scummy vibes from lurking after something as monumental as that.

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: Out of V/LA.

[AlmasterGM]

Mariyta: Untrod Tripod, Katsuki, havingfitz
UK: StrangerCoug, Untrod Tripod, ???
AGM: AKR, StrangerCoug, CooLDoG
Mina: ???
LMP: AKR, Untrod Tripod, CooLDoG

Looks like we are currently swinging UNTROD TRIPOD. Not gonna lie, I don't see it...but I'll roll along if necessary. I would absolutely dig StrangerCoug instead, though. And I think LMP could be convinced to move to StrangerCoug.

[AKnottedRope]

Still reading, sorry that it's taking so long.

[AKnottedRope]

In case anyone was wondering though, I still have a scumread on AGM, although it's a bit diminished after I"ve had a chance to cool down. I'll have to re-evaluate a few players after I finish.

[Untrod Tripod]

@AGM
Since only 5 votes are needed at deadline, you would probably be better served by pushing the lynch you agree with. 5 votes on SC would not be hard to come by.

[Mariyta]

Hey! Look who decides to come back and participate once he has a bit of pressure. I'll read it over later and flog him appropriately.

[AKnottedRope]

Another comment: can someone summarize the UT case so I can review it as I read?

[StrangerCoug]

May I have a case from AlmasterGM that doesn't falsely accuse me of OMGUS since I 1.) attacked him first and 2.) shot legitimate cases back, both of which discount such accusations?

[UncertainKitten]

@AKR: Basically boils down to UT being useless, and when suddenly he produces something people call good, he thinks he's all clear to disappear again and continue to be useless. Which seems like someone more concerned about the town thinking he's town rather than doing townie things.

[Mariyta]

Let the flogging commence!

First point still feels like a deflection.

or the "angry playstyles make me clam up" excuse in ISO#5;

You're right. I don't know my own preferences. I can get caught up in internet flame wars really easily and I tend to just not say anything to avoid acting like an asshole. But thanks for calling that scummy. Really.

I like this explanation better. Your first explanation looked like a cop-out.

Don't forget, this was Reck's first post in the game. I don't like someone claiming miller in their FIRST POST. I don't know what to make of it. It's weird and I don't like it. I'm not sure if it makes them scum, but I find it weird to say "oh, Reck claimed miller in their first post in the game, and then ragequit. That has to be legit".

It is actually common practice for millers to claim right off the bat. It's going to cause WIFOM anyway, but the WIFOM is a gazillion times worse if they wait to claim until they are accused.

Distancing is the obvious answer. Scum do it all the time. Like, ALL the time. WIFOM is a scum's best friend in many cases.

The assertion that people voicing suspicion of me early in Day 1 but not voting for me makes me scum is bad logic.

This wasn't really an accusation. Of course I'm not saying you're scum because people aren't voting you. UK said that. I was just explaining

why

people might do it, because you said they wouldn't do it if they were were your buddy.

The logical explanation for why a player would have suspicion on them but few votes is because the player isn't doing anything all that scummy.

If the player was doing nothing scummy, no one would accuse them of being scummy. It may just be that others are even scummier, so they got lucky w/ votes.

By the way, the entire quote is

The logical explanation for why a player would have suspicion on them but few votes is because the player isn't doing anything all that scummy. Trying to extrapolate connections between players with so little evidence is weird, paranoid and anti-town.

The rest of the quote is kind of important. My reasoning is this: You are asserting that because many people voiced some suspicion of me for lurking but did not vote, I must be scum. I assert that because many people voiced some suspicion of me for lurking but did not vote, that must be because I'm just not high enough on their scumlists to warrant a vote. Your explanation draws connections that simply aren't there. Which is what I said in the part of the quote you left out.

My point was not to draw connections here. I am of the school that believes connections cannot be drawn until someone has flipped. My point is that people (namely town) wouldn't have called you scummy unless you appeared scummy in their eyes. So your argument that you were doing nothing scummy is invalid.

Also you seemed to like my case on Zang just fine earlier.

As I said, the second half was decent.

Ok maybe sheeping was not the correct term to use, but I found it weird that you had expressed some suspicion of me earlier in the day, dropped your vote on me, followed me onto the Zang wagon stating that you agreed with my case on him, and then took a 180 on me following LMP posting a case on me and and made your own WHICH USED MY ARGUMENT AGAINST ZANG AS A POINT AGAINST ME and moved your vote back to me. It seemed like you said to yourself "oh, I can probably get back on this mislynch pretty easily without anyone noticing. I dunno if it's sheeping, exactly, but it definitely seemed like you were trying to ride on LMP's coattails in voting for me.

My re-read convinced me that I let your quantity of posting overshadow the obvious lack of quality. Don't worry. I'm on to you now. I won't let it happen again.

[Mariyta]

@AKR: Basically boils down to UT being useless, and when suddenly he produces something people call good, he thinks he's all clear to disappear again and continue to be useless. Which seems like someone more concerned about the town thinking he's town rather than doing townie things.

UK summarized the case so much nicer than I just did.

[Mariyta]

Zang is Grégoire de Fronsac. I am Mani.

Oh, on this for anyone who cares (and didn't look it up on the Wiki), Fronsac is the main dude and Mani is his Native American buddy (played by the chairman from Iron Chef America).

[StrangerCoug]

A quick look at Untrod Tripod in ISO doesn't reveal too many incriminating things. Granted, I disagree with a few things he said here and there, and I do see where the lurking accusation is coming from looking at the timestamps, but I need more convincing to go after him right now.

[LimMePls]

@AGM: Didn't I just do this exercise? I'd swear I've already done this.

TOWN
AlmasterGM
UncertainKitten
Mina
Mariyta
GhostWriter
Zang
Katsuki
havingfitz
StrangerCoug
CoolDoG
Untrod Tripod
AKnottedRope
SCUM

So lets go: AKR, UT, CD.

@Those saying CD is just VI: How do you know it is VI and not SI?

[LimMePls]

I don't like someone claiming miller in their FIRST POST. I don't know what to make of it.

Better get used to it, because its pretty commonly accepted correct miller play.

[Untrod Tripod]

It is actually common practice for millers to claim right off the bat. It's going to cause WIFOM anyway, but the WIFOM is a gazillion times worse if they wait to claim until they are accused.

Better get used to it, because its pretty commonly accepted correct miller play.

I haven't seen it before, but I believe you.

[Katsuki]

@Those saying CD is just VI: How do you know it is VI and not SI?

He is being far less scummy, idiotic, and in general bad compared to the other games as scum. In the sense that I can actually see town-motivated "scum-hunting" from CD this game. Whether he is actually good at it or not is irrelevant.

[GhostWriter]

Big post coming through. Bitch about it if you want, I don't really give a damn.
--------------------------

LMP's mega-post was what I'd been waiting for from him. Glad to see it.

Fitz is looking better and better after going though the iso. As scum. Last two post especially. Commenting on UK making an ad hom attack and then making one in the next post.

AHOY!
Unvote and VOTE: CooLDoG

Completely ignores the last point of the CD's reasoning for voting reckdra, focused on strawmanning the worser reasons.

What are you talking about?

@mary, so you admit to defending someone. If I correctly recall you should be scum hunting not defending other players. Also what is your motivation to defend him?

Are you really this stupid?

QFfuckingT. CD, you are nit-picking pointlessly. "Why are you defending someone you think to be town? You should be scum-hunting whilst we lynch someone you think is town instead of stopping us from lynching who you think is town so that we can focus on other people who you feel are more likely scum." That's what I just read from you. I noticed that you never really responded to this. Seems you figured out this wasn't going over well.

And for the record, my name is MarIYta. Pronounced Mah-REE-tah. If you must shorten it, please use Mari (Mah-Ree), not Mary. Mary is my aunt, not me.

Random insert, I know, but I did it because I wanted to tell you that when I have a daughter, I think I shall give her that middle name.

Found AGM claim. I had been confused since I did not see a Zang claim.
Will reevaluate AGM.

I won't have time to read through the thread until tomorrow, if I'm lucky.

my point exactly. We have yet to see a zang claim...

Also, AGM/Zang claim flavor as well.

You needed to see a Zang claim to help convince you, despite what AGM had already posted about 1:1 trade-off for scum? Flavor from one of them is understandable. But needing the claim from Zang to feel sure about it? If Zang were scum, AGM already explained why he wouldn't be denying it. He wouldn't do it even more-so now that AGM has made that post. Furthermore, if they were both scum, Zang would definitely not deny it, not even to gambit an AGM-scum flip in his favor, due to the fact that the illogicalness of that move would be staggering (AGM-scum goin that far to save Zang and Zang betraying him when it was obvious Zang would not be lynched anytime soon and didn't need to bus). No, no WIFOM arguments. Some things are just too fucking stupid. Especially D1. It'd, in fact, lead to Zang being lynched the very next day, with me leading, because it'd scream bussing scum. So, with no way Zang would deny it, why try to use this to cling to this wagon? At least SC has decent reasons to be wary of the claim; neighbors =/= masons. But to be wary of it because Zang didn't back it up yet? Hell, he probably figured he didn't need to.

Oh, and also, AlmasterGM is town, so please stop voting for him. From this point onward, I will treat suspecting AGM as a scumtell. For the record, if Zang flips scum

neighbour

at any point, that would confirm AGM as town, but he's also

I don't know if you simply forgot to end that or what, but whatever. I've done it before, but was just wondering. Anyway, AGM could be gambiting scum saving town-half of the neighbor connection in an attempt to gain their trust and protection. Is it likely? Not really. However, it does make treating those who suspect AGM as scummy for doing so not the best idea. And it gives you a way to give yourself ammunition against players over, essentially, nothing. It's not a scumtell. It may be bad play, but it's not a scumtell. I, in fact, see him as town. But I would not call that a scumtell. Not alone. Maybe in conjunction with other things, but if that's the case, you never needed to point it out on it's own like this.

I actually now trust CooLDoG more than LynchMePls. If he is evil, I will be very shocked. He's back to his blundering, pushy self he was early in the game. It really seems as though he's being protown by aggressively pushing LMP to post content, even if his approach is heavy-handed.

Or CD could be scum using this as a way to stay away from posting content himself for a while. During his push for content, he only commented on other things when directly spoken to, save for one post by Kat, in which he implies he doesn't actually want to have to go through Kat's iso for a read. Ironically, he also uses that post to push for more content from LMP. Furthermore, CD's posting style whilst pushing implies he doesn't actually think LMP is scum. Yet he repeatedly mentions/implies his vote on LMP and that LMP is scum. Even acknowledges that LMP is, indeed, a miller. Says he is willing to lynch a "non-contributing miller." Not a miller-claim. Not a fake-claiming-miller scum. A miller. The same way he called the neighbor SC was/is voting (I forget which one) a neighbor, in a way the implies he believes the role claims. And he sets himself up to get off the wagon for a lynch long before it's required, most likely due to the LMP wagon not really going anywhere. By the way, I noticed that in this post, you talk about LMP's catch-up post. Guess who didn't?

It also seems like he's clinging too hard to his AKR scum read from early in the game.

Kind of like CD is sticking to his LMP vote? No, wait, not the same. CD is worse. Way worse. Why did this wagon disappear again?

Look, on a scale of 1 to 10, how sure are you that Zang is town? I don't want you to die and then everyone else to incorrectly clear Zang.

As far as my certainty on the read goes ... right now, I'm 90% on Zang being town. I will let you know if that number changes.

Unvote
Vote: CooLDoG

BZZZT. We are lynching StrangerCoug today.

Why? For voting Zang? For voting you? Because neighbors =/= masons and even you don't have a 100% certainty (nor can you) of your partner's alignment and vice versa, so SC doesn't see why he should be expected to? He finds one (or both, who knows?) of you scummy, and is acting accordingly. You don't really have anything on him, as Zang has obviously done things to warrant suspicion, or else you wouldn't have claimed to save him. We don't have your inside info, so you cannot expect us to blindly follow you. Even a sanity-secure cop will have someone question his guilty/innocent reports the first time he makes them, and they won't always be scum when they do. So stop A) expecting people to blindly follow you because you're "clear", B) OMGUS-ing SC (odd use of OMGUS, right? Since you're not attacking him for attacking you, but for attacking your partner. but I couldn't think of anything else to use...), and try C) focusing on people who have a higher chance of being scum.

Unvote

Just want to say, them being neighbors =/= confirmed town. Just that they're not the lynch for today.

Cooldog is also not the lynch for today. He is a giant VI, but I have a strong town-read on him this game.

LMP is underwhelming. But I think I've learned that town-LMP is underwhelming. We'll see.

Mari is as hard to read as ever. Last two times I had her read as scum and she was town, so.

Fitz worries me. I have no impression of him at all this game. Hell I wouldn't know he was in this game without looking at VC.

SC is being SC, and I have not had the time to read him.

I would be fine with a UK lynch at this time. She is not that town-presence I am used to in previous games. I get this odd aura around her.

Vote: UK

Essentially, you listed a bunch of people you can't read well, and then vote for someone you aren't reading well. What the fuck is this shit? Also, why is CD not the lynch for today? What makes him a VI instead of scum?

We have to lock down on something. The way to do this is by forging an alliance between logical people who will act rationally (AKA TEAM VI SLAYERS) and then forcing one or two VIs to work with us.

LMP, Mina, UK, and Mariyta - list your top 3 scumreads.

We will lynch the person who is most mutually agreeable to all of us.

Did I just get called a VI?

It is actually common practice for millers to claim right off the bat. It's going to cause WIFOM anyway, but the WIFOM is a gazillion times worse if they wait to claim until they are accused.

Better get used to it, because its pretty commonly accepted correct miller play.

I haven't seen it before, but I believe you.

Yeah, I've been seeing it done more too. And it makes sense to do it, to me. It's was part of the reason I didn't suspect Reck.

Preview Edit:

@Those saying CD is just VI: How do you know it is VI and not SI?

He is being far less scummy, idiotic, and in general bad compared to the other games as scum. In the sense that I can actually see town-motivated "scum-hunting" from CD this game. Whether he is actually good at it or not is irrelevant.

What is relevant, however, is if you have a town meta supporting him as town. I find using a scum meta the way you just did as absolutely pointless. Why would he not get slightly better? And whether it's good scum-hunting or not actually IS relevant. What, all of a sudden scum scum-hunt well?

[Untrod Tripod]

We have to lock down on something. The way to do this is by forging an alliance between logical people who will act rationally (AKA TEAM VI SLAYERS) and then forcing one or two VIs to work with us.

LMP, Mina, UK, and Mariyta - list your top 3 scumreads.

We will lynch the person who is most mutually agreeable to all of us.

Did I just get called a VI?

It's ok, I'm a "VI" too. Obviously we should form a "VI" alliance. There's more of us, after all.