1119: The Might of Mordor: Game Over

[Mariyta]

@Mariyta:

Waiting on that "Plum case" you are working on. You have avoided that topic for far too long. I certainly do not appreciate you hounding Plum, stating that you have your own reasons. It almost seems like you're hyping it up to be more than it is.

This comment isn't true. I haven't been avoiding it at all. I gave my case (quoted below). I just never quoted the

exact

posts I didn't like. I'll do them today at some point. I'm also going to do a complete re-read.

I don't think forgetting the heads of a hydra is scummy (though I'm not sure Plum really forgot). But I do think many of the things she's trying to draw attention to are weak and reaching, at the very best, or "fluff," as the cool kids would call it. Potentially an attempt to participate without drawing any attention to her buddies.

Can someone point out why we're imbuing quadz?

[gandalf5166]

Especially when Fate loses track of his target, I've found he ends up switching to a town lynch.

Can you explain that?

His first target D1 is usually scum. However, the person he lynches D1 is usually town, because he loses track of his original target because he sees something in someone else, and forgets that he only gets one lynch per day. Perfect example: Magician's Mafia, he was latched onto Razgriz-scum, and all of a sudden he switched to me cause of something little(I don't remember what it was). Incidentally, that's also the only time I've misread Fate.

[gandalf5166]

WHY THE FUCK ARE WE IMBUING QUADZ

We have enough support to lynch Plum. The rest of this day needs to be about who we're imbuing. IMO, it should be either SpyreX or Sevei. Preferably SpyreX, as Sevei is making me paranoid that she just came in and realized her partner was doomed, so she started bussing.

[MasterSpy]

Ok, this the MagnaofIllusion head of MasterSpy checking in. I will be reading the thread and getting together with Mina in our QT do discuss our reads.

A large, joined catch-up post from her should be coming in the next day or so.

Note – My posts will always be in italics for ease of knowing which head is which. Mina should be making the majority of posts so I am leaving her normal text to save all of you eyestrain.

[gandalf5166]

Sounds good. But we all know the real reason that Mina's doing most of the posting.

It's cause I have experience with Magna-scum.

[quadz08]

Especially when Fate loses track of his target, I've found he ends up switching to a town lynch.

Can you explain that?

His first target D1 is usually scum. However, the person he lynches D1 is usually town, because he loses track of his original target because he sees something in someone else, and forgets that he only gets one lynch per day. Perfect example: Magician's Mafia, he was latched onto Razgriz-scum, and all of a sudden he switched to me cause of something little(I don't remember what it was). Incidentally, that's also the only time I've misread Fate.

Interesting observation, and good to know as a Fate meta-thing. Is that accurate on other days, or just D1?

Sevei is making me paranoid that she just came in and realized her partner was doomed, so she started bussing.

This is an interesting point, but I don't read Sevei's post that way. Something to think about in the future, though.

AGM, your L-1 vote combined with imbuing somebody with no support whatsoever is BAD, as mentioned earlier by a couple of players. That in addition to the aforementioned lack of reading and general scummy feel I get from you means:

VOTE: AGM.

Also, I would support a Sevei or VV imbue-wagon. Spyrex has made solid posts, but I'm just not feeling the townieness behind it, for some reason. Mad gut feeling, nothing more.

[Mariyta]

Ok, wall post hoooooo! This is in no logical order, just notes as I was reading.

AGM:
-Initial "Don't nominate yourself for imbue unless your role sucks!"
-Seems to be very blase about imbuing, and I don't like it one bit. See post #70 and his recent posts re: L-1 w/ Plum.
-But #64 seems decent, despite Katy's disagreement on that point.

I think that the Ring should go to the towniest player

I like this. Much better than gandalf's "a good player is better than a townie player" comment. Quadz' play has been good.

SingerSigner's absolute confidence that quadz is town this early in the game worries me. Her comment about being engaged makes it worse. Can you really read him

that

well, on

page 2

no less? I highly doubt that. Hey, and then there's this, where she says "Plum must be scum. She can't tell if I'm obvtown or obvscum."

No one has solid reads on everyone on page 7. I swear, if I hear this argument one more time "ZOMGFENCESITTING", I will tear out that fence and shove it wear the sun don't shine.

*Slap* Fate for an early soft claim. Same for Gandalf. THINK before you speak, gentlemen. I beg you. Gandalf's incessant flavor speculation is really annoying and distracting. Not to mention for awhile his play made me very suspicious of him, but now I just think he's... I don't want to call him dumb... um.. he's... well, let's just say I've seen better play from Shotty.

Now, if gandalf is correct that Fate is usually right about his

first

target, but gets easily distracted, I would like to direct you here. What say you to that little nugget? Especially paired with this. There's a first time for everything, even Fate being right. (Does that sentence make any sense?)

Eus:
-Reason for not joining my wagon was weak, reason for voting Katy was 1000x worse.
-See #101, especially the first half. Makes me go hmmm....
-Joy, then we get the "meek confession" and a sheeping vote on Plum. (Hi Kettle, I'm Pot. Nice to meet you.)
-Hey, and don't forget the sudden "I can't play with Fate!" freakout.

Next time I try to come out of retirement,

someone point me to this game

please don't give me scum right off the bat.

-Masterspy has yet to really post, so I can't comment on their play.

Plum:

What I disagree about - and with Gandalf also, it seems - is the idea that Town shouldn't be voting to Imbue anyone but themselves until we get our hands on on obv-Townie/only vote to Imbue someone you trust, and if you don't, don't vote to Imbue. We should be so lucky that people agree that well on such a thing, but I digress - Imbuing before we have concrete information is no worse than voting before we have concrete information.

Hey Gandalf, why vote to Imbue SpyreX?

-You say imbuing doesn't matter much, but you seem awful concerned about the reasons for imbuing. I also don't like that you seem almost as blase about imbuing as AGM.

VOTE: Mariyta for voting someone other than AMG while noting, with implicit disapproval (or if not, major ambiguity) that AMG was attempting to lead the Town.

As if that's necessarily a bad thing

.

-I initially didn't like the arguments against me for my comment to AGM, but now I see why she thought the way she did. I still really don't like the bolded part. You see Edge directing the town in your lynch right now. How do you feel about that?
-I actually don't mind Plum so much now. She's not totally obvtown, but she's not obvscum, either.

So, yeah, I got bored after pg 7 and skimmed the rest. Regardless, I'm going to

Unimbue: Spy, Imbue: quadz

. I think Spy has a tendency to follow Fate/Edge, much like gandalf, and I can't trust his towniness at this point.

VOTE: MasterSpy This was a really tough decision between SS and MS, and AGM came in right on their asses. I want them all dead.

[Plum]

-You say imbuing doesn't matter much, but you seem awful concerned about the reasons for imbuing. I also don't like that you seem almost as blase about imbuing as AGM.

I understand that we have a different view regarding the strength/seriousness of Imbue votes, and I don't think the reason for our difference of attitude is

necessarily

related to alignment per se. But in general, I was asking because I don't believe SpyreX had done anything besides a very vanilla confirm to that point, and Gandalf's followed Edge's Imbue vote on SpyreX. It was worth looking at in the same way a guy sheeping a Fate vote on page two onto a guy who hadn't done anything yet would be worth poking at.

[Katy]

I am willing to change my imbue vote to Sevei if that's how the wind blows, but I don't have a problem with it on Quadz either. Those would be my two picks out of the available choices for now.

I'm feeling reluctant to change my vote. The case on Plum rests on one thing that happened at the beginning of the game, and while I see it, I don't see anything else from her that bolsters that case. AGM on the other hand, has consistently done things I find suspect.

IN addition to the things I already said, add to it his stubborn insistence against the case on Plum, until it was spelled out more than one time, when it was actually not that hard to figure out if you actually were willing to read the thread and figure it out, and as others have noted his L-1 vote along with a self-imbue vote, which looks like an attempt to rush the day end before we get someone imbued.

I'm pretty happy to leave my vote where it is.

[AlmasterGM]

Mina + MagnaofIllusion? God, the walls will be UNBEARABLE.

@gandalf - why is SpyreX town? Why is quadz08 not town?

AGM, your L-1 vote combined with imbuing somebody with no support whatsoever is BAD, as mentioned earlier by a couple of players. That in addition to the aforementioned lack of reading and general scummy feel I get from you means:

Why?

[singersigner]

SingerSigner's absolute confidence that quadz is town this early in the game worries me. Her comment about being engaged makes it worse. Can you really read him

that

well, on

page 2

no less? I highly doubt that. Hey, and then there's this, where she says "Plum must be scum. She can't tell if I'm obvtown or obvscum."

No one has solid reads on everyone on page 7. I swear, if I hear this argument one more time "ZOMGFENCESITTING", I will tear out that fence and shove it wear the sun don't shine.

.........

So, yeah, I got bored after pg 7 and skimmed the rest. Regardless, I'm going to

Unimbue: Spy, Imbue: quadz

. I think Spy has a tendency to follow Fate/Edge, much like gandalf, and I can't trust his towniness at this point.

What was that about trusting my read on quadz?

And I find it very hypocritical that you jump down my throat for trusting quadz' reads so early, and yet there's all this sheeping bit with Fate going on, and Plum dictating that Edge is town in the beginning, etc. At least quadz did something

I

deemed to be a ridiculous town play for him, and has since then been very proactive and townie. And what the hell is wrong with being able to read my fiance like a book? You'd think you'd take that as an advantage, hmm? Ok, ok, I can understand if you don't trust I'm town yet ...but that only confirms townquadz to you anyway, right?

And I admit, that was a little hasty of me to call Plum out for fencesitting. But again, I explained that it wasn't her fencesitting that was the problem, it was how it was worded. She seems to be very good at playing a semantic game, so I wouldn't have expected that from her.

That's actually whats making me paranoid about her defense. I feel as though she can very easily talk her way out of something. I just didn't like how Edge dubbed what she did as absolute scumscumscum.

More in catch-up.

[Mariyta]

Roll your eyes all you want, darling. Page 2 is way too early to be calling obvtown on someone, even if you're married to them. The whole point of this game is to fool people when you're scum, even those you're closest to. And I don't condone Plum's calling Edge town or the Edge sheeping (yes, I said I sheeped him, but I had my own reasons for voting). Nothing you did made quadz seem town. He managed that all on his own.

That's actually whats making me paranoid about her defense. I feel as though she can very easily talk her way out of something.

I agree with this.

[SpyreX]

So, yeah, I got bored after pg 7 and skimmed the rest. Regardless, I'm going to Unimbue: Spy, Imbue: quadz. I think Spy has a tendency to follow Fate/Edge, much like gandalf, and I can't trust his towniness at this point.

The hell is this?

I 'follow' Edge when its fairly apparent that EDGE IS TOWN. Because, Edge is pretty tech when the dice come down.

However, this illustrates something that has been asked more than once and I haven't seen a good reason for:

What is the rationale for Imbuing quadz?

Especially considering this:

Plum (5): Edge, gandalf5166, MasterSpy, SpyreX, AlmasterGM, (Sevei)
quadz08 (6): quadz08, singersigner, VasudeVa, Katy, Plum, Maritya

Notice something here?

There is no overlap. None. It is NOT a coincidence that everyone imbuing quadz isn't on the Plum wagon and I'm calling megateaparty on a Plum-scum flip. Mega.

Hot damn, seriously.

And, again, Gan goes "9 NAZGUL = 9 TOWN POWER OF THE TIME CUBE" and when I flat out call that the garbage it is NOTHING.

[Mariyta]

So, yeah, I got bored after pg 7 and skimmed the rest. Regardless, I'm going to Unimbue: Spy, Imbue: quadz. I think Spy has a tendency to follow Fate/Edge, much like gandalf, and I can't trust his towniness at this point.

The hell is this?

I 'follow' Edge when its fairly apparent that EDGE IS TOWN. Because, Edge is pretty tech when the dice come down.

My only experience with you is in games Fate/Edge has been in, so forgive me for being a bit hesitant about your play. Honestly, if you and Edge were scum together, I think you'd rule this town (or any town), and that worries me.

However, this illustrates something that has been asked more than once and I haven't seen a good reason for:

What is the rationale for Imbuing quadz?

I found him to be the most townish so far, so he's a safe vote.

Plum (5): Edge, gandalf5166, MasterSpy, SpyreX, AlmasterGM, (Sevei)
quadz08 (6): quadz08, singersigner, VasudeVa, Katy, Plum, Maritya

That's actually very insightful. Hmm... However, if Plum is scum, I would not doubt at least one scum buddy is on her wagon. And if she's not scum, well, the same holds true.

And, again, Gan goes "9 NAZGUL = 9 TOWN POWER OF THE TIME CUBE" and when I flat out call that the garbage it is NOTHING.

In plain English, please?

[Plum]

And I admit, that was a little hasty of me to call Plum out for fencesitting. But again, I explained that it wasn't her fencesitting that was the problem, it was how it was worded. She seems to be very good at playing a semantic game, so I wouldn't have expected that from her.

Hold on a sec, remind me which post rubs you the wrong way?

That's actually very insightful. Hmm... However, if Plum is scum, I would not doubt at least one scum buddy is on her wagon. And if she's not scum, well, the same holds true.

So, uh . . . that was a useful conclusion much?

Spy, if

you

don't want to take the shiny special Ring, and you don't want

Quadz

to have it, I wanna know who you

would

want to have it and possibly why your vote isn't there, because whoever it is it doesn't look like a quickImbuehammer would be possible so I dunno what you're waiting for and why you're whining about a wagon when you're not voting a counterwagon and I'm at like L-2.

[Mariyta]

That's actually very insightful. Hmm... However, if Plum is scum, I would not doubt at least one scum buddy is on her wagon. And if she's not scum, well, the same holds true.

So, uh . . . that was a useful conclusion much?

No, not really, but I found the information interesting, even though my conclusion from it was meh.

[SpyreX]

My only experience with you is in games Fate/Edge has been in, so forgive me for being a bit hesitant about your play. Honestly, if you and Edge were scum together, I think you'd rule this town (or any town), and that worries me.

As it should. (As an aside, a while ago I had a dream that Vi, Fate and I were town and the game went D1 Start - Scum Win. It was hilarious).

However, the stars refuse to align and that still hasn't happened.

And, further, for that to be a concern you'd have to believe Edge, even more than me, is scum.

Which lines up with this:

I found him to be the most townish so far, so he's a safe vote.

All quadz, really, has done is defend Plum.

Edge has been on the offensive there for GOOD REASON and no way in hell is that a bus.

So, really, you're saying Plum is town and quadz is town for defending town.

Hells no.

That's actually very insightful. Hmm... However, if Plum is scum, I would not doubt at least one scum buddy is on her wagon. And if she's not scum, well, the same holds true.

Thats not the part I'm really focused on. That kind of dispersal isn't an accident and with a few flips I want THIS RIGHT HERE WATCHED because guaranteed there be a code there that's gonna cause some major death.

In plain English, please?

In his trip down insanity lane one of the many awesome and amazing things Gan has done was directly say all the town are Nazguls because 9 = 9. This, of course was a rationale for there being no SK among other awesome things.

The kicker? I flat claimed not Nazgul and nothing. Not a peep.

From anywhere.

Spy, if you don't want to take the shiny special Ring, and you don't want Quadz to have it, I wanna know who you would want to have it and possibly why your vote isn't there, because whoever it is it doesn't look like a quickImbuehammer would be possible so I dunno what you're waiting for and why you're whining about a wagon when you're not voting a counterwagon and I'm at like L-2.

Because its not going to get quickhammered and if it does well even better.

I may make a push for it with things how they shake out (hint: If Plum IS scum then me having it is a good thing. Else, not as good).

I like Sevei but they're inactive. Edge doesn't want it. So, I'm dancing.

@Edge:

AGM rings hella town and may be a good alternative depending. HALP

[Mariyta]

I'm not quoting your entire post, but I don't see how quadztown=Plumtown. Please enlighten me. And if you wouldn't mind, can you comment on gandalf's claim that Edge's first target is usually scum, and why everyone (but me) is now ignoring his first target?

I flat claimed not Nazgul and nothing. Not a peep.

Edge did too, and as I already pointed out, there is no way the setup would be 9 Nazgul good guys. Then the town would just go to the Wiki, make everyone list their role, and call end game right there. Broken. Not gonna happen. There may be all 9 Nazgul in the game, but some of them will likely be safe claims.

Where on earth do you get townAGM from?

[gandalf5166]

Spy, I don't see how that means I must be scum. It just means I was wrong, and realized I was wrong when Mari showed me that the Nazgul actually were named.

Oh, and Mari, that was the random target he latched onto. There's a difference between Edge's first vote and his first TARGET.

[quadz08]

Why?

I will do my best to spell this out for you.

You put down the L-1 vote on Player A. This is bad for the following reasons:
Firstly, scum could quickhammer. This is unlikely, but possible, as scum could always claim to have not been reading/counted incorrectly, and word their voting post accordingly.
More likely, someone could genuinely miss a vote, or not read the mod's last votecount, or something else stupid. I've seen it happen twice in a couple of recent games; it happens, and we should always be wary of that fact.

Additionally, you put an imbue-vote on a player (yourself) who had NO ONE ELSE imbuing them. You knowingly brought us within a single vote of the end of the day without first ensuring (or even pretending to care) that someone was going to have the ring tonight.

Make sense?

Spyrex, the lack of overlap is really, really odd. I don't think I've ever seen a game polarize into camps quite like that before. However, I don't think that information helps us find scum in any way. If you think otherwise, explain how. Also, what does "megateaparty" mean?
And I have absolutely no idea what you're attempting to say in your last sentence.

MASSIVE P-EDIT:

I found him to be the most townish so far, so he's a safe vote.

Ummmm... terrible reasoning, there. Wanna be a biiiiiiit more specific?

Thats not the part I'm really focused on. That kind of dispersal isn't an accident and with a few flips I want THIS RIGHT HERE WATCHED because guaranteed there be a code there that's gonna cause some major death.

I'm not sure what you're asking for / saying here, either...

In his trip down insanity lane one of the many awesome and amazing things Gan has done was directly say all the town are Nazguls because 9 = 9. This, of course was a rationale for there being no SK among other awesome things.

The kicker? I flat claimed not Nazgul and nothing. Not a peep.

From anywhere.

I personally didn't find it terribly interesting / helpful. It does make you seem somewhat townier, what with being willing to admit that, but it says nothing about Gandalf's alignment, and really didn't do too terribly much for yours. I'm unsure why you think this point deserved discussion.

Because its not going to get quickhammered and if it does well even better.

NOT BETTER. quickhammer=bad. Nobody has the ring when hammer goes through = worse.

AGM rings hella town

Wanna run that by me again, with some explanation?

[VasudeVa]

There is no overlap. None. It is NOT a coincidence that everyone imbuing quadz isn't on the Plum wagon and I'm calling megateaparty on a Plum-scum flip. Mega.

You think all scum would lump their imbues on the same person? Why isn't it a coincidence? I'm treating the imbue vote like I treat the votes. Who are the scum on the quadz imbue-wagon?

FMPOV, the people on the quadz imbuewagon are a bit townier than the people on the Plum lynch wagon. (Not by much though.)

What is the rationale for Imbuing quadz?

Welp. Quadz posts strike me as genuine scumhunting as they are well thought out and reasoned. His defense of Plum is too straightforward and too brave for them to be scumbuddies. I see no reason for quadz-scum to defend Plum-Town.
So quadz-Town it is.

Why don't you think that quadz is Town?
Why do you think Edge is Town?

WHY THE FUCK ARE WE IMBUING QUADZ

We have enough support to lynch Plum. The rest of this day needs to be about who we're imbuing. IMO, it should be either SpyreX or Sevei. Preferably SpyreX, as Sevei is making me paranoid that she just came in and realized her partner was doomed, so she started bussing.

Why are you opposed to the quadz imbue wagon?
Can you give me your reasons on why you want Plum dead? Not much in your ISO. Most of it is petty bickering.


---p.edit.
Heh. I was just making an explanation on quadzTown and here he comes to the rescue, proving my point.

I'm all up for an AGM wagon.

vote: AGM

[gandalf5166]

1. Because he is a null. He is like butter. He's not good until you combine him with someone else. Those kinds of townreads never work.
2. SHE LIED. TOWN DOESNT LIE. NO MORE NEEDS TO BE SAID.

[SpyreX]

I'm not quoting your entire post, but I don't see how quadztown=Plumtown. Please enlighten me. And if you wouldn't mind, can you comment on gandalf's claim that Edge's first target is usually scum, and why everyone (but me) is now ignoring his first target?

I sure dont either but thats the connection there based on your quadz love. Among others.

Edge did too, and as I already pointed out, there is no way the setup would be 9 Nazgul good guys. Then the town would just go to the Wiki, make everyone list their role, and call end game right there. Broken. Not gonna happen.

There may be all 9 Nazgul in the game, but some of them will likely be safe claims.

Ohh snap almost there.

Where on earth do you get townAGM from?

The back and forth with Edge before jumping is town. Bank on it.

Spy, I don't see how that means I must be scum. It just means I was wrong, and realized I was wrong when Mari showed me that the Nazgul actually were named.

I personally didn't find it terribly interesting / helpful. It does make you seem somewhat townier, what with being willing to admit that, but it says nothing about Gandalf's alignment, and really didn't do too terribly much for yours. I'm unsure why you think this point deserved discussion.

These go together because they're part of the same thing.

IF I HAVE TO POST THE RAW VOLUME OF BAD AND BIZARRE 'FLAVOR LOGIC' GAN HAS USED (ALMOST LIKE, MAYBE, HE HAS SOME REASON TO PUSH THIS) I WILL

BUT THAT CAN WAIT FOR AFTER A PLUM SCUM FLIP GOD IN HEAVEN YOU GUYS.

Seriously "I can't see why someone with a Nazgul 'claim' would run the IT MUST BE TOWN move" I swear to god.

NOT BETTER. quickhammer=bad. Nobody has the ring when hammer goes through = worse.

THIS IS WHO YOU WANT TO HAVE THE RING AGAIN.

There's been enough talk. Someone slipping a hammer in here is no accident. Unless your power is "Get a scum lynched tomorrow guaranteed" someone hammering without the Imbue at this point is about the best thing that could possibly happen in the multiverse.

GOD

Welp.

Quadz posts strike me as genuine scumhunting

as they are well thought out and reasoned.

His defense of Plum is too straightforward and too brave for them to be scumbuddies.

I see no reason for quadz-scum to defend Plum-Town.

Where.

I see a pinch of "gan can't be scum" and a bucket of "Plum isn't scum" and...

Nothing.

Add in the simple fact in PR land its probably worth trying to save a buddy (not for the least of reasons your underlined sthick) and getting the Imbue? FFFF

[Mariyta]

I found him to be the most townish so far, so he's a safe vote.

Ummmm... terrible reasoning, there. Wanna be a biiiiiiit more specific?

Nope. Not going back through all those posts that I already went through. My read on you was town, and that's enough for me at this point.

I really don't like playing with Spy and Edge together. They feed off each other and treat the rest of the town like we're morons. Pisses me the fuck off.

[gandalf5166]

Quadz is just not good at the game, not scum.