Mini 1113 - Brotherhood of the Wolf Mafia

[GhostWriter]

I actually have. I felt he was stretching to try to find a reason to vote the slot. I think I used the phrase "taking a large leap" while doing it.

[StrangerCoug]

I actually have. I felt he was stretching to try to find a reason to vote the slot. I think I used the phrase "taking a large leap" while doing it.

Oh. Must have been gunning AlmasterGM so hard I missed it.

[AlmasterGM]

Well, I can't help it if you all are letting scum lead you like damned sheep to a townie lynch. Have fun being wrong, AGM. (Well, actually, you're probably one of the scum involved. So go you, I guess?)

Oh, so I'm scum now just because I think CooLDoG is scum? What about everyone else voting cooldog?

[/quote]

And I told you why this answer doesn't work for me, pretty much point by point:
Nobody has claimed cop with a guilty on Reckamonic. Therefore, it makes no sense to bring into question whether it's a policy lynch to go after somebody on which a cop claimed a guilty.

*facepalm* That's not my point. I was merely trying to demonstrate how your use of the rhetoric "policy lynch" was absurd.

While it's implied that you think Reckamonic's miller claim is fake when you vote him, you never directly address it, which needlessly throws me for a loop.

I didn't imply anything. In fact, I didn't mention the miller claim at all because I don't care and it doesn't affect the read.

Metaing a good player doesn't work. You claim that something you usually see in his town play is absent, so he's scum. As most people try to play to their town meta regardless of alignment, I wanted you to supply a scum motivation for his actions.

And most scum are going to try and play to a "town motivation" too, aren't they? But it doesn't always work, because even if you are very good player, it's hard. The same applies to meta. Sure, you are going to TRY and fake townmeta, but sometimes emotions get the best of you slip up.

I can't believe we are actually having this argument. If you are not scum I am going to be very disappointed in you postgame.

----

Ok, now here comes the fun.

Overreactions like this would be two. Also I'm laughing at the utter hypocracy here.

Okay, so since you can only come up with posts from AFTER you said I was "increasing in scuminess," I'm going to assume that was your only reason (at the time, anyway - play with me for a second).

Now, here's why that read is bad.

1) I have demonstrated a reason for voting CooLDog in Post #8. I explained this again in a later post.
2) Right above where I say, "I would be down with a CooLDoG lynch, said cooldog had just finished posting a series of incompetent and dumb posts. My displeasure with these posts is obvious based on the fact that I say I want a CooLDog lynch right after he makes them.

Now, here's why that read is scummy.

1) You come in and say "AGM is scummier." You don't explain why at all.
2) I ask you why I am scummy. You say it is because I don't justify my CooLDoG vote.
3) Ironically, at the time, YOU HADN'T JUSTIFIED YOUR READ OF ME BEING "SCUMMIER" EITHER. So, you basically just called yourself scummy.

Undoubtably, had I called you out on this right off the bat, you would have gone back and found something else I had done to cover it up. That is why I asked you for ALL the reasons I was scummy - so you couldn't pull that stunt. You didn't offer anything older, so my logic is perfectly valid.

Any questions?

[Untrod Tripod]

I've changed my mind about UK.

Unvote UncertainKitten

. That was a stupid OMGUS-y vote. That'll teach me to read the entire game before responding to a case. In context of the rest of her posts, may be a terribad case, but it's a terribad case by a town player. Let us never speak of this again.

As promised, my reads on the rest of the players in the game:

Zang, scum

Not in love of Zang's posting style, but I promise that what bugs me isn't his style. His strategy of only posting quotes and responding to them with one-liners (often asking pointless questions) strikes me as fluffy. Also the last vote was for Reck and was based on flavor. Also his "suspicions" strike me as very go-with-the-flow and less as scumhunting. Rubs me the wrong way.

Mariyta, town

Mariyta's posting strikes me as town. I don't really have anything to say about her ISO.

AlmasterGM, leaning town

Almaster is doing a lot of scumhunting and pointing out the weaknesses in other players' games. Despite the angry playstyle, his posting feels town motivated to me. I don't agree with a lot of the things he's said (like the "only scum would ragequit" argument and calling me a n00b), but those things don't affect his alignment.

LynchMePls Reckamonic, null

I mentioned the miller claim a while back and never expounded on it. I find the miller claim really weird and cannot figure out a town-motivated reason for it. I find it a lot more likely that it'd be a scum gambit. However, the whole rage-quit thing makes me think that maybe the reasoning for the claim was completely illogical so I shouldn't base my LMP read on it too much. LMP's posting seemed good to me, but I also know that his mafia meta is really town.

Mina, leaning scum

At first I read through Mina's ISO and thought "hmm, this is decent posting. Her thing on me in her ISO post 2 was pretty bad and looked like fakehunting, but maybe she thinks shameless bandwagoning at the beginning of D1 is scumtell so it doesn't mean anything". The rest of it looked pretty good, she was asking all the right questions to all the right people, so I was going to write her off as town. Then I realized she hadn't cast a vote since the beginning of the game. At this point, being this hesitant to cast a vote (and thus make a strong statement about who is town or scum) is scummy. I don't think someone can not fall on one side of the fence on the case for one of CooLDoG, LMP/Reck or me. The lack of voting looks scummy to me.


Now that I'm caught up on reading and whatnot, maybe I can stop being such a failure lurker. Moving on...

_____________________________________________________


I could, of course, be horribly wrong about all this.


So my picks for scum after a reread and ISO-fest are Zang, Mina and SC.

I'll

vote Zang

[MagnaofIllusion]

Vote Count 1.9 - As of Post 304

Zang (0) -
Untrod Tripod (1) - UncertainKitten
Mariyta (0) -
AlmasterGM (1) - StrangerCoug
Katsuki (1) - Untrod Tripod
LynchMePls (3) - Zang, CooLDoG, havingfitz
StrangerCoug (0) -
AKnottedRope (1) - LynchMePls
CooLDoG (4) - AKnottedRope, AlmasterGM, GhostWriter, Mariyta
UncertainKitten (0) -
Mina (0) -
havingfitz (0) -
GhostWriter (2) - Mina, Katsuki

Not Voting (0) - No one

The Current deadline in Februrary 7th at 9:00am EST. The Countdown can be found

HERE

With 13 alive - 7 are required to lynch and 5 are required to lynch at deadline.

Activity Check - CooLDoG will be prodded if he does not post by 1pm EST today.

[Mina]

I fell asleep last night and didn't finish the massive post I was working on, but since this takes no effort to answer:

Then I realized she hadn't cast a vote since the beginning of the game. At this point, being this hesitant to cast a vote (and thus make a strong statement about who is town or scum) is scummy. I don't think someone can not fall on one side of the fence on the case for one of CooLDoG, LMP/Reck or me. The lack of voting looks scummy to me.

But my vote is on

GhostWriter

(although admittedly, I haven't moved it in a long time).

[UncertainKitten]

@AGM: You're completely ignoring the fact I was already calling you scum. So, no, don't try this shit.

@UT: That was a surprisingly (mostly) good post. Keep it up.

Unvote, Vote AGM

I've decided I dislike his cute misrepresentations of facts.

[UncertainKitten]

Ugh.

Mod, can you fix my tags?

Done

[UncertainKitten]

EBWOP: I'll note that my suspicion of UT has not been fully dispelled, it's just he's become second place (or lower) now. I think I'd even place him below SC at this point.

[AlmasterGM]

@AGM: You're completely ignoring the fact I was already calling you scum. So, no, don't try this shit.

@UT: That was a surprisingly (mostly) good post. Keep it up.

Unvote, Vote AGM

I've decided I dislike his cute misrepresentations of facts.

...in that post, you just say I'm scummy because I didn't vote UT.

So both of your reasons for saying I am scum are because I didn't agree with you that someone else is scum.

And you want to call me calling you out on that a "misrep?"

bullllllllllshit.

[AlmasterGM]

Actually I'm wrong, it's not even that, it's because I think one person is scummier than another person (e.g., CooLDoG is scummier than UT).

Which is even dumber.

[UncertainKitten]

[AlmasterGM]

[UncertainKitten]

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok, the occasional pic in the thread is funny / cute / whatever. I don't have issue with them.

Let's not make the thread recreate the GD "ITT we only post pictures" thread, ok?

Thank you.

[UncertainKitten]

But it's very important for our arguments, MoI! It is CRITICAL to our scumhunting prowess to throw stupid pictures at each other. H-how can you be against such a thing!? I bet you wouldn't even pet a kitten >=[!

I'm a cruel cruel man. Just ask my daughter. I only allow her two dogs, one cat and one large bowl of fish. I am a monster!

[Mariyta]

@UT: That was a surprisingly (mostly) good post. Keep it up.

Seconded. And I liked the comments on Zang. I'll be reading him in ISO when I get a chance later.

[GhostWriter]

I fell asleep last night and didn't finish the massive post I was working on, but since this takes no effort to answer:

Then I realized she hadn't cast a vote since the beginning of the game. At this point, being this hesitant to cast a vote (and thus make a strong statement about who is town or scum) is scummy. I don't think someone can not fall on one side of the fence on the case for one of CooLDoG, LMP/Reck or me. The lack of voting looks scummy to me.

But my vote is on

GhostWriter

(although admittedly, I haven't moved it in a long time).

You've made a grand totally of two posts that say anything about me. You talk on and on about other players, but never on all of what I'm doing. As a matter of fact, I think you've been nitpicking over the same 1 thing with me that you originally voted me for, with a disregard to anything else I've done. Congratulations, I think you'll make a fine D2 target.

[LimMePls]

@lmp, yeah comment on me.

Read my ISOs 1 and 6. I've already done this.

[Mina]

*cries* I've been staring at the thread in horror and paralyzed indecision all night, trying to decide what to chip away at first.

This game is hard to wrap my brain around, because every post is very dense and packed with quotes.

Also, my reads keep changing every five minutes. For one thing, I'm feeling better about StrangerCoug and GhostWriter, and worse about Katsuki and Mariyta. It's hard to tell who's scum and who's just wrong or lazy. My vote will most likely move from GhostWriter when I finish this, but I don't see the point of unvoting a null read in no danger of a lynch when I haven't decided on the best place to move it.

I'm going to respond to GW's recent post. But before I start walling away at people, here's just a general overview of where I'm standing. I'll pull a Tripod and just post half the players at a time. This is

roughly

in order, but the bottom:

Town

UncertainKitten: I disagree with some of what she's saying, but she's proactive and passionate and a leader and blindingly town.

AlmasterGM: Shocker, I know! But I'm actually fairly confident in this read. (And most of the reasons I'd written last night for trusting him are the same as Untrod Tripod, which improves my opinion of the latter.)

I don't agree with his reasoning for why Reckamonic's rage quit was scummy, but his explanation for his thought process was plausible. Something about his attitude reads very much like brash, in-your-face town to me. Part of it is how he dismissed my question about Mariyta/AKR as "irrelevant" because the game had moved on. Part of it is his comments about the postgame after someone flipped scum. His annoying wall-of-text war seems as though he's genuinely trying to catch StrangerCoug in a lie. I believe that

he

believes what he's saying.

So, yeah. Sorry, UK, but I think your case on him kind of sucks.

LynchMePls: Already explained my thoughts on the miller claim. Originally, his jump from UT to AKR bugged me, but upon a second glance, it's the kind of natural evolution in thought process that I see coming more from town than scum. Were he scum, he'd probably have stuck to his UT read (unless they're buddies), particularly when the UT wagon had momentum. My biggest problem is that his suspect list isn't very original; any replacement can read through the game and list a few quotes against the game's easy targets. But I like his contributions so far.

(On a side note, I predict a 2-1 split of scum between the pro- and anti-LMP camps if this is a 10-3.)

Townish Side of Center

StrangerCoug: I never got around to explaining my problems with him. For one thing, his stance on Katsuki made no sense. Like, no fucking sense whatsoever. Seriously. "Katsuki, why are you accusing Mariyta of leading a scum wagon on." "Never mind, I misunderstood that. UNVOTE." "Yeah, actually, come to think of it, I

will

revote Katsuki now that you're pressuring me, because babble babble something about my mouth and foot and red blue green pineapple 42." Can you explain your thought process behind your vote, unvote, and revote of Katsuki? I feel as though I'm missing something important.

And...seriously. The mountainous comment was pretty bad, particularly when he used UT, as "Yeah, that's a FANTASTIC point in Katsuki's defence! Because this might

not

be a 10-3 mountainous, and that means Mariyta would be MUCH more likely to bus...and Katsuki would know that, of course...." WTF?

Add to that his lame vote on Reckamonic (which he STILL hasn't acknowledged), and the hypocrisy surrounding his read on AGM.

That said...when I read him in ISO more closely, I see where he's coming from on quite a few issues. The questions he's asking to pry into possibly CD/AGM connections seem town motivated. I think the main point in his favour is that like I said about his nemesis, I believe that

he

believes AGM is scum. He's at least active and engaged with what's going on in the thread. Unlike the other Reckamonic voters, he seemed to put genuine thought into Reck's alignment.

That said, he STILL HASN'T ACKNOWLEDGED that Mariyta only outed the "Henri" part, not the "Henri Sardens" part of Reckamonic's role.

(On a side note, the SC vs. AGM battle is ridiculous. "You're scummy because MY reason for suspecting Reckamonic is sooooooo much superior to yours." Guys, why don't you settle your differences and realize that

both

of your reasons suck?

*cue LMP flipping scum, because this happens every time I arrogantly proclaim a town read*

)

On the Fence

Mariyta: Contrary to StrangerCoug, I've started feeling worse about her. I can usually see her POV, but after ISO-ing her, I'm disappointed with what's there. Aside from a lot of flavour speculation, her scumhunting consists mostly of quick, safe, obvious points and agreeing with other players. She's passive and tends to go after easy targets. Any mediocre scum player could play D1 the way she has so far.

Something also felt off about her jump from UT to CD--not that she didn't adequately

justify

it, but that her overall pattern of behaviour was just very much how I'd expect scum to react. "Oh, so UK is wagoning Untrod Tripod. Sure, I agree that he's scummy. Well, now CD is the popular wagon. Come to think of it, yeah, this easy target is scummy for these reasons. Why don't I jump from UT over there?" Yes, this sounds completely crazy when I try to articulate it, but it rubbed my gut the wrong way. But I need to see more from her before I can judge.

Scummy Side of Center

AKnottedRope: Before his terribad vote on AGM for voting

without reasons

(no, seriously. Even if AGM

hadn't

set up suspecting CD...you haven't played a single Mafia game before, have you?), I was almost going to move him into the "townish side of center" category. My biggest reservation about AKR!scum is that he's asking a few good questions, seems fairly spontaneous, and doesn't come across as though he'd be a brilliant scum player. But still, AKnottedRope never responded to this post, because he almost deserves to be lynched for "this is a valid point" alone. LMP also makes a good point about his overdefensive reaction to being voted. Wouldn't shock me if he was scum.

Hey, AKR, by the way, what do you think of havingfitz?

CoolDoG: I'll be brutally honest. Frankly, he's the kind of player I can't really bother to make an effort reading. His posts make my head hurt, and are padded with filler and buddying. His arguments are all over the place. His stance on Reckamonic is terrible. I'm not crazy about UK's defence of him; I'd like an in-depth post explaining where her read on him came from. Not familiar enough with his meta to know if he'd play all that differently from this as town or scum. Given the speed of his wagon, I'm a little wary of it, because Town!CD is probably candy for scum. And he at least seems to be making an effort to scumhunt (albeit badly). But if I don't have better leads, I could compromise on him. I enjoy heartlessly culling the weakest links on D1 if they don't give me town reads.

========================================================

Hmm, that leaves Zang, Katsuki, havingfitz, GhostWriter, and Untrod Tripod. There's certainly scum in this group (a Mariyta/AKR/CooLDoG team is very unlikely unless Mariyta is a chronic distancer).

Unfortunately, I'm a better townhunter than scumhunter, so my reads get murky when I get to the scummy half of the play list.

I may move Mariyta, AKR, and CD closer to the scummy end of the spectrum depending on what I find when I examine everyone's ISOs more closely.

[Mariyta]

On the Fence

Mariyta: Contrary to StrangerCoug, I've started feeling worse about her. I can usually see her POV, but after ISO-ing her, I'm disappointed with what's there. Aside from a lot of flavour speculation, her scumhunting consists mostly of quick, safe, obvious points and agreeing with other players. She's passive and tends to go after easy targets. Any mediocre scum player could play D1 the way she has so far.

Something also felt off about her jump from UT to CD--not that she didn't adequately

justify

it, but that her overall pattern of behaviour was just very much how I'd expect scum to react. "Oh, so UK is wagoning Untrod Tripod. Sure, I agree that he's scummy. Well, now CD is the popular wagon. Come to think of it, yeah, this easy target is scummy for these reasons. Why don't I jump from UT over there?" Yes, this sounds completely crazy when I try to articulate it, but it rubbed my gut the wrong way. But I need to see more from her before I can judge.

I can't really defend against this because that describes me very well. I'm a cautious player. I don't like to be wrong, so I tend to play it safe, as both town and scum. I wasn't following the "popular" wagons, though. Just the people I felt were/are scummiest at the time.

[Untrod Tripod]

@lmp, yeah comment on me.

Read my ISOs 1 and 6. I've already done this.

Probably not a good plan to tell us to read back through your ISO. In doing so, I notice there's very little in it. There's two posts that could be considered content. ISO #1 is mainly a quote wall with very little analysis and a whole lot of what I didn't like from Zang. ISO #6 has...some analysis, but it's extremely limited. It's mostly saying "read my earlier post". There are three other posts saying only "I said these things earlier" and a couple of other fluff posts. I realize that LMP came into a bad slot and his Zang-esque quote post may have looked like content at the time, but at this point it's stretching very little content very thin. Also this quote is bad news bears

Mary: Interactions between CD and UT. Specifically those discussed in 180.

Looks good on the surface, but CD and I haven't had any interactions. And you barely discussed me at all. This was, of course, in the post where you said a lot about other people and then voted me for no reason. I'm an easy target, and people probably wouldn't question you saying that a suspicious person is suspicious. It is however a bogus analysis and now that not is blindly jumping on the lurker maybe they'll listen to my analysis.

On the Fence

Mariyta: Contrary to StrangerCoug, I've started feeling worse about her. I can usually see her POV, but after ISO-ing her, I'm disappointed with what's there. Aside from a lot of flavour speculation, her scumhunting consists mostly of quick, safe, obvious points and agreeing with other players. She's passive and tends to go after easy targets. Any mediocre scum player could play D1 the way she has so far.

Something also felt off about her jump from UT to CD--not that she didn't adequately

justify

it, but that her overall pattern of behaviour was just very much how I'd expect scum to react. "Oh, so UK is wagoning Untrod Tripod. Sure, I agree that he's scummy. Well, now CD is the popular wagon. Come to think of it, yeah, this easy target is scummy for these reasons. Why don't I jump from UT over there?" Yes, this sounds completely crazy when I try to articulate it, but it rubbed my gut the wrong way. But I need to see more from her before I can judge.

I can't really defend against this because that describes me very well. I'm a cautious player. I don't like to be wrong, so I tend to play it safe, as both town and scum. I wasn't following the "popular" wagons, though. Just the people I felt were/are scummiest at the time.

Oh no, the "I'm a cautious player" defense. I've definitely used that as scum. The weird thing is, I wouldn't have described your playstyle as "cautious". I still think Mariyta is town, but there's finally a chink in the town armor.

I'm not in love with Mina's distancing from her own arguments here. Stand by your analysis or don't make them. Saying "I think these things are scummy, but gosh, seeing it written out makes it look kind of crazy!" is bad bad bad. Not making a definite stance of "I think these things and they are true in my opinion" is bad. I'd rather see the rest of your analysis before I start demanding you place a vote, but this analysis is continuing to look a lot like what I didn't like about your earlier wishy-washy, voteless posting.

[AKnottedRope]

AGM: I'm answering you backwards for effect.

1) You come in and say "AGM is scummier." You don't explain why at all.
2) I ask you why I am scummy. You say it is because I don't justify my CooLDoG vote.
3) Ironically, at the time, YOU HADN'T JUSTIFIED YOUR READ OF ME BEING "SCUMMIER" EITHER. So, you basically just called yourself scummy.

1) It was right after a post of yours that was particularly scummy and opportunistic.
2) A slight misrep of my case, but yes, that was the reason. This is bad why?
3) Mk, yet keep reading

1) I have demonstrated a reason for voting CooLDog in Post #8. I explained this again in a later post.

2) Right above where I say, "I would be down with a CooLDoG lynch, said cooldog had just finished posting a series of incompetent and dumb posts.

My displeasure with these posts is obvious based on the fact that I say I want a CooLDog lynch right after he makes them.

See the bolded. Apparently, you can use that excuse just fine, but attack me for the exact same thing in your next paragraph. Ok, whatever. Scum

And yes, that was a reason from post 8 (I'm assuming ISO). I don't have the patience to count, but I'm sure there were at least 100 posts between that one and the one where you opportunistically jumped back on the CooLDoG wagon just as it was gaining steam. You gave no reasons why you felt the CD wagon was better AT THAT POINT and why your vote needed to be switched.

Also, reason three why you're scummy: this sort of floundering. AGM is now a significantly better wagon than CD

UNVOTE:
VOTE: AlmasterGM

(Accusations of OMGUS will be met with violence)

[AKnottedRope]

Wow didn't see about five posts there.

AKnottedRope: Before his terribad vote on AGM for voting without reasons

Um, read the thread? I hadn't voted AGM until post 322. I called him scummy with a fairly good reason, and now those reasons have multiplied and have a vote to go along side them. I'll

assume

you just misread something here.

you haven't played a single Mafia game before, have you

... I really hope you're not insinuating that I've never played this game before.

But still, AKnottedRope never responded to this post, because he almost deserves to be lynched for "this is a valid point" alone.

I thought it was a valid point? I don't (and didn't) care that others were calling me a lurker or whatever. I missed that post on my first read of the game and agreed with it.

Also Jesus Christ, that's not cutting down on walls, mina.

Hey, AKR, by the way, what do you think of havingfitz?

Hm... now that you mention it he's been off my radar.

[AlmasterGM]

1) It was right after a post of yours that was particularly scummy and opportunistic.

Just like my post voting CooLDoG was right after a stupid and scummy post made by CooLDoG. BUT OH WAIT, YOU CALLED THAT SCUMMY, DIDN'T YOU?

See the bolded. Apparently, you can use that excuse just fine, but attack me for the exact same thing in your next paragraph. Ok, whatever. Scum

GOOD MOTHER OF GOD.

This ACTUALLY makes me mad. YES. YES. YES. THATS THE FUCKING POINT. YOU HAVE A DOUBLE STANDARD. YOU SAY IM SCUMMY FOR VOTING COOLDOG WITH NO REASON, BUT YOU DID THE EXACT SAME FUCKING THING WHEN YOU CALLED ME SUMMY.

And now I'm "floundering?" THE FUCK? I'M DESTROYING YOUR LOGIC ON EVERY LEVEL. IF ANYONE'S FLOUNDERING HERE, IT"S YOU.

SCUMLIST

COOLDOG
STRANGERCOUG
AKNOTTED ROPE