Newbie 1030 - Game Over

[Nocmen]

Setup:

Roll for Setup: 3 = 2 Goons , 1 Doc, 6 Townies

Roles:
1 - Idle Thoughts is Mafia
6- Purple Orange is Mafia
3 - rj20876 (replaced by Hoppster) is Doctor

Town: Everyone else

Night choices:
Night 1: Scum Kills Ragnarokio, Doctor protects Nachomamma8
Night 2: Scum kills LordChronos, Doctor protects Nachomamma8
Night 3: Scum kills Nachomamma8, Doctor protects Purple Orange

[Newbie2010]

Thanks for modding Nocmen! Great game, everyone. I'd really like to play in another game with any of you. Had lots of fun! And awesome win, IT and PO

Make me proud.

[Purple Orange]

LOL, I think you guys totally DID make him proud, even if you didn't get me in the end. You made me freaking WORK for this win.

Wait did you talk with IT in the quicktopic? I really didn't see a PO - IT scumpair not talking in the QT at the start of D-1.

Yeah, we actually talked quite a lot (there's some posts I'd like deleted, if Nocmen decides to reveal it, because we discuss some strategies I like to use that we never used here, and because I talk a lot about my meta on other sites. :/)

But when I'm new to a site I don't normally tend to reveal my gender to anyone. I ended up listing it eventually because everyone here seems to do it...and because I thought it might make me look nicer and more sympathetic and not-mafia-ish to you all.

hardcore

I think the better word for me would be V/LA
Sorry for my what 5, 6, 7 V/LA's...

My main counter-trap for you was if when I questioned you you would shift the attention to Hoppster and show that you knew that I was town or something, but you never did that [/QUOTE]

You were BRUTAL, Newbie...your questions were always good, and I was convinced you were on to me. :/ Once you started after me, I really thought my only hope was to convince Hopp to vote for you. And my case on you was looking flimsier to me by the day, because your whole good-question-asking playstyle was so darn PRO-TOWN. I had to start dredging up things and asking questions back to people left and right, just to make it look like I cared about finding the mafia as much as you did. When I would have

much

preferred to coast through the day.

And I knew the more you guys picked through the thread, the more you'd be likely to stumble on some things that badly implicated me. Hopp was dead on with his "but why DIDN'T you switch back to Idle" question, and all I could hope for was that I could get away with an "I was confused," and that you guys wouldn't look any closer and ask me any harder questions about that.

Another post I was REALLY dreading you guys finding was where I asked Nacho, "Are your reads on Hopp and Newbie certain, or did one or more of your previous investigation subjects die?" (Note my failure to mention the possibility of a roleblocker...)

[Newbie2010]

And I knew the more you guys picked through the thread, the more you'd be likely to stumble on some things that badly implicated me. Hopp was dead on with his "but why DIDN'T you switch back to Idle" question, and all I could hope for was that I could get away with an "I was confused," and that you guys wouldn't look any closer and ask me any harder questions about that.

The one time I got to that was when I told you that you were talking more about Idle than muh, but really, most of it was a gambit that you played through perfectly and I didn't really give Hoppster much option other than to make a case on me or be called scum. My bad

Another post I was REALLY dreading you guys finding was where I asked Nacho, "Are your reads on Hopp and Newbie certain, or did one or more of your previous investigation subjects die?" (Note my failure to mention the possibility of a roleblocker...)

One of the main problems was that everything you were guilty on, I was even more so guilty on Everytime I tried to build a case on you (which wasn't often), I'd think "wait, didn't I do this as well?" I don't think I mentioned roleblocker for the entire game.

[Purple Orange]

And I knew the more you guys picked through the thread, the more you'd be likely to stumble on some things that badly implicated me. Hopp was dead on with his "but why DIDN'T you switch back to Idle" question, and all I could hope for was that I could get away with an "I was confused," and that you guys wouldn't look any closer and ask me any harder questions about that.

The one time I got to that was when I told you that you were talking more about Idle than muh, but really, most of it was a gambit that you played through perfectly and I didn't really give Hoppster much option other than to make a case on me or be called scum. My bad

LOL. When I said that you'd caught me completely off guard, that I was confused, that I'd made a bad decision, and that I wasn't thinking straight, that was the honest-to-god truth. The self-hammer thing came completely out of the blue, and combined with me feeling really bad for Idle Thoughts that day, I did a

horribly

stupid thing. As scum, I should have totally switched my vote back over to Idle and murdered him. That was a complete total awful bit of play on my part, and I was sure I'd cost us the game.

But...um...once it happened, it happened, and I felt all I could do was admit how awful it was right off the bat, and try to make you look worse for it than me. (On the other hand, you couldn't die

too

soon, or else people

would

start using the same arguments I used against you on me).

One of the main problems was that everything you were guilty on, I was even more so guilty on Everytime I tried to build a case on you (which wasn't often), I'd think "wait, didn't I do this as well?" I don't think I mentioned roleblocker for the entire game.

Yep...I vaguely remember noting that you'd not mentioned one either, and figured it was going to be my hail Mary if push came to shove. Still, it would have been a nasty bit of work to talk myself out of, and I'm not sure I could have done it.

[Newbie2010]

Yep...I vaguely remember noting that you'd not mentioned one either, and figured it was going to be my hail Mary if push came to shove. Still, it would have been a nasty bit of work to talk myself out of, and I'm not sure I could have done it.

At one point in time in D3, I was like "Woah PO has never gotten a vote since RVS, and is thus less likely to scumslip", but ignored that logic under the fact that your cases were actually good.

Oh and by the way, did you NK Nacho to not get that case he was hinting at at the end of D-3? Or did you want to frame Hopp so that I would vote for him? Or was there something else I'm missing?

[Newbie2010]

And I still don't get how NK'ing Nacho would make 100% sense for Hopp, thought that it actually implicated me because of Nacho's backing down after your case on Song and me, and I honestly thought that he was trying a PO-case-push or something instead of a me-push because of him calling me town D3.

[Newbie2010]

or unless you're trying to get me over on Hopp as well as Hopp over on me before you made a move.

...I got both of you to FoS the other, just made the wrong decision

[Idle Thoughts]

I've learned a lot from this game...

...Namely, I'm not as 1337-haxz0rz as I thought I was, and that this game is a billion times deeper than I had first broken into.

I have studying to do... Next time I won't be a faceless n00b with little tactics. Sorry for being useless, Purple Orange. But it was fun while my meaningless little life lasted. Really good play on your part, and on everyone else's.

[Newbie2010]

IT: In my opinion, you did really well not letting the PO-IT pairing be known. You and PO had like 100 chances to slip during the D1 deadline, but both of you failed to hint at a link, which was one of the reasons for my final decision. This added to the fact that your interaction tells with Sevei were rather strong and didn't feel forced, made it a really good play as scum, even though you went down D2. I mean, you not getting lynched D1 was mostly my thing, but you convinced me that you were town

[Purple Orange]

On nightkills

* We killed Rag because we thought she was a power role. She was also the one person D1 who was in any way on to me.
* We killed LC because we thought Hanzo was being Hanzo, and bluffing/gambitting about not thinking there were any power roles.
* I wanted Nacho dead because I figured that if anyone was likely to catch on to me and get me lynched, it was him. He might start out with a case on someone else, but he was a darn good player, and I was sure I'd slipped up enough to give him a foothold somewhere, and that he'd get it out of me by the end of the day. He hadn't revealed his order of reads, so I didn't know exactly where I stood...he was a wild card in that respect. And people seemed to think he was quite town.

So...um...yeah, I killed him for pretty much all the reasons I listed in my post today about why I thought he died.

A large part of my reasoning for risking a kill of him N3 was that I

was

still paranoid that he might be the cop. (If I'd bothered to read his meta in time, I would have realized that he wasn't...but, oh well). I know that claims in lylo are iffy...but a Nacho-cop claim, with a guilty on me or an innocent on you, would still be damn hard to argue against. And he would be 100% sure of himself, and he would

know

I was scum. Lylo would be him saying "PO is scum," and me having to convince the other person that Nacho was scum instead of me....scum who had made the decision to attack me in lylo, instead trying to go for the easier mark of the scummier player. I had zero confidence in my ability to pull that off.

I was actually willing to risk Hopp protecting Nacho (which I thought he would do if he was the doc), clearing both he and Nacho, and sending us into a Newbie vs. Purple Orange mylo, than go into lylo with a Nacho-cop that I'd have to argue for my life against.

Now that I look back at that...risking mylo to avoid a me vs. Nacho lylo may theoretically not have been the best decision. But that was my thought process at the time. I was terrified of Nacho, and was quite sure I would lose the game if I ended up locked into arguing for my life against him.

@ Nacho:

I'm super-curious. Who

would

you have found most suspect, if I'd killed Hopp instead of you? What WOULD your cases have looked like?

[Newbie2010]

I was actually willing to risk Hopp protecting Nacho (which I thought he would do if he was the doc), clearing both he and Nacho, and sending us into a Newbie vs. Purple Orange mylo, than go into lylo with a Nacho-cop that I'd have to argue for my life against.

You probably would have won Newbie vs. Purple Orange mylo, because of

One of the main problems was that everything you were guilty on, I was even more so guilty on Everytime I tried to build a case on you (which wasn't often), I'd think "wait, didn't I do this as well?"

Seriously, I had zero confidence in the case I presented against you in D4.

Did you consider Hoppster-cop at all? I actually almost considered that for a while, only because of the "hiding info" thing that Hoppster was doing while speculating. If Hoppster were cop you might have FoS'd me at first and then had Hoppster say that I was confirmed town.

[Purple Orange]

I've learned a lot from this game...

...Namely, I'm not as 1337-haxz0rz as I thought I was, and that this game is a billion times deeper than I had first broken into.

I have studying to do... Next time I won't be a faceless n00b with little tactics. Sorry for being useless, Purple Orange. But it was fun while my meaningless little life lasted. Really good play on your part, and on everyone else's.

Hey, man - we won! And Newbie's right -- there were many things that could have gone wrong at the deadline, and you avoided associating with me any more obviously than anyone else. (I came the closest to betraying it, with the replacement thing, I think).

And, LOL, you played way better as scum in this game than I just played in another game here where I was scum, where I screwed over my whole team big time. (Will link you to it when it finally finishes. It makes me wince, big time, and was quite a humbling experience. )

So, yeah - you not incriminating both of us is

big

deal, and a really good thing.

Sorry the case I hacked out for you on D2 didn't work out so good.

I was actually willing to risk Hopp protecting Nacho (which I thought he would do if he was the doc), clearing both he and Nacho, and sending us into a Newbie vs. Purple Orange mylo, than go into lylo with a Nacho-cop that I'd have to argue for my life against.

You probably would have won Newbie vs. Purple Orange mylo, because of

One of the main problems was that everything you were guilty on, I was even more so guilty on Everytime I tried to build a case on you (which wasn't often), I'd think "wait, didn't I do this as well?"

Seriously, I had zero confidence in the case I presented against you in D4.

Heh, you hid it well. You and Hopp both scared me to pieces.

But, yeah - I thought I at least had a

chance

in me vs. you mylo. Though I still think Nacho could have pegged me as scummier for the same reasons Hopp did. I think the similarities between us start to look LESS similar the closer they get examined. And I think I had more inconsistencies in what I posted than you had.

Did you consider Hoppster-cop at all? I actually almost considered that for a while, only because of the "hiding info" thing that Hoppster was doing while speculating. If Hoppster were cop you might have FoS'd me at first and then had Hoppster say that I was confirmed town.

There was something he said that made me about 100% certain he wasn't the cop, but I don't remember what it was.

If he was a power role, I had him pegged as the doc. You were obv-VT because of your willingness to get lynched on Day 2. Though I did consider the distant possibility that you were the doc or cop. If you were doc, I figured you'd protect me, and woo, Nacho would die! If you were cop...well, there wasn't much I could do there.

[Hoppster]

ARARWGHAWGHW. So close.

Did I mess up on the PO N3 protect?

Thanks for modding Nocmen! Great game, everyone. I'd really like to play in another game with any of you. Had lots of fun! And awesome win, IT and PO

Make me proud.

Damn right Newbie. It's all your ruddy fault.

[LordChronos]

Great job Purple Orange! You played a really good game.

[muh316]

Wow good game guys. Damn good job by Purple Orange.

[Nocmen]

Scum QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/45/H/ccvQ43ujSxwWV

[Idle Thoughts]

Thanks for the compliments and all, it makes me feel a bit better about that. You do realize I was following Purple Orange's instructions a good 90% of the time, though, right?

Anyway, it was fun for me. Oh, by the way, for the record: I wasn't lying about the emailing issues. That's most of what messed
me up. (Not that anyone accused me, just saying.)

I'm in another game with a few friends on another site at the moment, but it's just started. 3 prods D1... That's the kind of atmosphere we play in. :/ So I needed to adjust a lot for here.

Again, this was a lot of fun.

[Nachomamma8]

Good job, all. That was a pretty impressive performance from all of you. Newbie, I'm especially impressed with your interrogating skills. Hopp, you played the most blatantly protown game I've seen in a while, and you made it very easy for me to read you . Your doc protect wasn't really that much of a mistake; I definitely saw the reason for doing so. Just remember as a doctor you don't always have to protect the towniest of the town; just the person you think has the highest chance of catching scum with a high probability of being town. It's a difficult balance, though.

@Purple Orange: You know, I'm not quite sure that I would've lynched you in LyLo, but there were two things that I was planning on attacking you on.
First of all, the muh lynch. You and Newbie were responsible for that, and I couldn't help but notice that you were on the background of that. In particular, fencesitting until Newbie forced you to a side showed that you really didn't feel strongly for either lynch, and there was no reason for you to go for a wagon on anything other than the more pragmatic lynch if you didn't feel strongly.

Secondly, for rolefishing here:

Umm... that kind of assumes he's a cop? It really makes me uncomfortable how far we're delving into roles now. Although I guess you're experienced with this?

Or are you taking his statement as a subtle (not so much anymore now I've brought it into attention) cop claim? I do agree that we could potentially just be discussing really pointless things. I feel like I'm just going in a circle all the time.

Err...not really experienced. :/ But when we're down to five players, with two possibly confirmed innocents, I do know that it becomes more of a viable possibility to discuss roles than earlier in the game. I'm not

sure

which is the wisest course of action right now, and Nacho's the one with the most experience, and also the one under the gun over the claim, which is why I wanted to leave it up to him whether to push the cop matter or tell us to forget it.

Some of the language in his post is a bit ambiguous, but between the "at this time" and "process of elimination," I found it difficult to interpret it as anything other than a claim. If you didn't intend it to be, Nacho, my apologies, I misread what you were saying, and I'll back off; it could simply be you saying "I don't have a guilty investigation on Song, for whatever reason," and I'll work under that assumption from here on out if that's all you were saying.

You seemed way too worried about the possibility of me being cop.

[Purple Orange]

What precisely made Hopp's game so blatantly pro-town? I also thought he was yelling town town all thread, mostly because any surface-ly scummy stuff he did looked like a new townie player just missing something and making an oversight, and super-obviously so. But I don't have a very objective perspective on this, as I

knew

he was town anyway.

Also...my experience with lylo IS limited. But I have seriously never seen mafia do what Newbie did...it's how I've called at least two other lylos elsewhere correctly recently.

Would

I have been wrong to make a call like that (and go against a very strong gut townread of Hopp), if I'd been town?

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

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