Mini 1096 - Seinfeld Mafia (Game Over)

[LimMePls]

Waiting for a flippy flip but I don't see how Katsuki's comment about Tally was a smoke screen? That's a new explanation I think. Does anyone else see it that way and can explain it?

Scum voting another wagon near deadline while having said "that other wagon is good" in reference to the mislynch is EXACTLY what the scum in that instance did.

Yes but in order to compare these two situations we need to know that you are also town. If Katsuki picked a scum wagon over the town wagon then it isn't really distancing from a mislynch as much as picking the right lynch.

You should avoid burden of proof arguments.

I KNOW I'M TOWN! I wasn't making a burden of proof argument, I was making an observation from my point of view. That post was from my reread, and it was an observation. YOU have asked what I meant from it, and so I explained what I meant. I never said you all had to believe my point, but I KNEW the situations where the same.

[Kdub]

Vote Count

charter (0) -
LynchMePls (6) - The Fonz, Katsuki, Jahudo, Talitha, Kmd4390, Untrod Tripod
Katsuki (5) - MagnaofIllusion, LynchMePls, charter, MacavityLock, Haschel Cedricson
The Fonz (0) -
MagnaofIllusion (0) -
Jahudo (0) -
Haschel Cedricson (0) -
Talitha (0) -
Untrod Tripod (0) -
Kmd4390 (0) -
MacavityLock (0) -
Not Voting (0) -

LynchMePls has been lynched! He was

Jacopo Peterman

(Vanilla Townie)

.

J. Peterman's toast

It is now Day 3.

Vote Count

charter (0) -
Katsuki (0) -
The Fonz (0) -
MagnaofIllusion (0) -
Jahudo (0) -
Haschel Cedricson (0) -
Talitha (0) -
Untrod Tripod (0) -
Kmd4390 (0) -
MacavityLock (0) -
Not Voting (10) - charter, Katsuki, The Fonz, MagnaofIllusion, Jahudo, Haschel Cedricson, Talitha, Untrod Tripod, Kmd4390, MacavityLock

10 votes available, 6 votes needed to lynch.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Can we just f'in lynch Obv-scum Kastsuki already?

I'll be back either tonight or in the morning to address comments made by Jahudo and Fonz.

VOTE: Katsuki

[MacavityLock]

And this makes twice now where I'm not really seeing a case on one of the two big wagons (raj D1, LMP D2), and the overlap is strong: Kats, bv/Jahudo, UT, and Tal. At least two scum here.

I think the most important thing here is that the chances of both wagons being town is almost 0%.

Yeah. VOTE: Kats

[Katsuki]

Wow... that UT hammer.
Oh hi there nice of you to pop up MOI.

Vote: MOI

Fine with either a MOI or UT lynch.

Will re-analyze game sometime.

Interesting to note that the scum most likely have no NK (unless they got prevented consecutive nights).

[Untrod Tripod]

As for D1, I still think MOI. Though in my mind, MOI and LMP were both pretty much even.

Wow... that UT hammer.
Oh hi there nice of you to pop up MOI.

Vote: MOI

Fine with either a MOI or UT lynch.

Will re-analyze game sometime.

Interesting to note that the scum most likely have no NK (unless they got prevented consecutive nights).

Easy to criticize a mislynch after the fact. Which is funny, because you were saying LMP was an equal scum candidate to MoI after your "reread"

vote Katsuki

dude is so scum

[Katsuki]

Yes, your point?

I'm criticizing the timing of your hammer. Town-flip supports my thought.

Actually,

Unvote, Vote: UT

MOI can come later.

[The Fonz]

Vote: Tally

Like people to at least take some notice of the fact that Katsuki is taking positions, scumhunting and making stands, even if his reasoning IS very noobish.

[Kdub]

Talitha has informed me that she will be V/LA for the next 6 days.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Wow... that UT hammer.
Oh hi there nice of you to pop up MOI.

The lulz here. You are accusing UT of being scum for hammering LMP when you could have hammered you instead? So he’s scummy for choosing Town LMP over you? Derp.

Yeah, bad distancing is bad.

You are attempting to call me out for lurking? Really? My last post was YESTERDAY.

--

@Untrod

– You missed many questions posed your way in post 398. Rectify that by answering in your next post.

Here are some more thoughts / questions for you –

I think a Katsuki flip makes tomorrow's move obvious. I'm going to lay off LMP for right now, but he's still on my scumdar. I don't think his lynch provides us with as much info as Katsuki's.

unvote LMP

I'm willing to hammer Katsuki. Want to hear his claim.

Why? You're putting me in the uncomfortable position of kinda wanting to hammer LMP more than Katsuki

So Katsuki was the play when you couldn’t hammer LMP since you were on the wagon. Yet, with no questions or inquiry from you suddenly you reverse 180 degrees and hammer LMP.

What happened to Katsuki making Day 3 more obvious?

Easy to criticize a mislynch after the fact. Which is funny, because you were saying LMP was an equal scum candidate to MoI after your "reread"

vote Katsuki dude is so scum

If so why did you hammer Town LMP instead of Katsuki? Again, bad distancing is bad.

--

I'm feeling conflicted about the Katsuki wagon because with 4 scum still in play in this game, how likely is it that both our two wagonees are scum? Not too likely, IMO. It was weird that after all your pushing Kats for so long, my vote seemed to really start the Kats wagon rolling - charter & Macavity's votes following mine VERY quickly. I'll hold off on interpreting this until someone flips.

Now that LMP has flipped Town I’d like you to elaborate on this.

--

@KMD

– I’d like you to explain how your thought process went from “I disagree with both Wagons” to “I’d hammer LMP to preserve my Town read Kats”. What specifically made your read on LMP more scummy than Katsuki?

--

LMP's accusation that Kat was not scumhunting is simply untrue. He made a scumbuddy case on MoI/LMP based on their actions in thread (both calling UT each other's buddies) and his opinion that MoI was ignoring meta evidence knowledge he had about Katsuki's play.

1. Where is the case you speak of having seen Katsuki make?
2. How is his opinion that I’m ignoring meta-evidence valid at all when the meta we share shows him being tagged as scum by me?

Like people to at least take some notice of the fact that Katsuki is taking positions, scumhunting and making stands, even if his reasoning IS very noobish.

Nice of you to attempt to play the newb card for Kats. He clearly isn’t new.

I’ll dispute your incorrect assertion that he is doing any scum-hunting at all.

--

104 needs to be talked about. MoI mentions a meta read on Katsuki here he has questionable reads but is also town? What are you two hiding about how much you know each other and trust you know? Or is this nothing, links would be good.

Interesting tactic to take on this. In 104 I make two specific comments about Kats

1. That he has never successfully read me as Town when he was Town.
2. That he is either scum or has horrible judgement for calling Peanut’s 85 Obv-town material.

These statements are based on our games history together. We have two completed games together on site. In both he called me scum and I was Town. The first was Prison Mafia (which was Mod abandoned) where he was Town himself. The second was LOTR Mafia where I was Town and he was Isenguard Scum. For the record I positively identified him as such in that game and that was the driving force for his faction killing me N1 (I played as the hydra Memoria Esponia in that game).

Question 1 to you Jahudo

– Why exactly do you state we are ‘hiding’ something about how well we know each other?

240 calls Kat out for missing the mod post. Eh, some people are like that. I’ve seen town do it. MoI also calls him out for not scumhunting. I skimmed a few of Kat’s games and don’t think he’s out of character at that point. Right now this looks null to me, because people scumhunt in different ways and I’m done trying to get someone to play the way I want them to (See: Objection mafia).

If Kats is indeed scum this post has all the hallmarks of soft defense. What games did you skim to determine that Katsuki’s play here was null? How exactly has he been scum-hunting?

398 (as in the post you made yesterday) looks like the first time he adds the tells about Kat’s hammer and reaction being scummy? I don’t see your explanation. The hammer business to me looks worse than it probably is. Town should not be afraid to hammer. This is a common mantra that even scum know. So I think Kat is either scum that didn’t know raj was at L-1 or he is town that didn’t know raj was at L-1.

First off you start this with a misrep. I clearly stated I thought Katsuki’s behavior around the Day 1 hammer was horrible. You further compound this by trying to say Town shouldn’t be afraid to hammer, which is 0% of my issue. I’ll explain exactly why it is scummy so we can be clear.

1. Kats hammers Raj.
2. Before the flip actually happens that shows Raj to be Town he immediately distances from the hammer ‘I already regret it’. Someone who doesn’t know Rajr’s alignment might have regrets after the flip, but not before. Especiallly in a non-deadline environment. We have all the time in the world to get lynches right.

Clear enough for you?

Also can you point out where in any way Kats could not know Raj was at L-1?

At 237 Untrod begs for him to hammer and at 238 Kat specifically states he is aware Raj is at L-1.

[charter]

The LMP has all the signs of crummy votes, same as yesterday. Fonz is the only one voting LMP who I think is justified in doing so.

Charter, if you still believe this then back it up with your reasoning. I’m about to do the same, but for the Katsuki wagon.

Well, kind of pointless now, but Fonz votes him first, he gives actual reasons. Tally's vote is because she thinks LMP is "throwing mud to see what sticks" but I don't see it. It's pretty weak justification for voting someone, especially since I don't think LMP was doing that and really just looks like OMGUS. Katsuki just votes LMP after he votes her. Jahudo votes LMP over that joking scumlist in the beginning, but later finds out his reason is wrong. Tripod hasn't given one reason for voting anyone this whole game.

There were a bunch of weak reasons in my opinion.

(3) charter – His only reason for voting was in 309, Katsuki voting for LMP looking like a self-preservation vote. I don’t follow your logic on this one. Katsuki had been calling LMP and MoI scum on day 1 and voted for them. So how does voting them on day 2 when a wagon was forming on him have anything to do with a wagon forming on him?

I don't like how he made a post before he voted LMP saying he didn't have time to post, but then when he did post, his post couldn't have taken longer than a minute to make, especially if he was reiterating what he thought day one. Also, if you look at his posts, he made like a dozen posts, mostly 15-30 minutes apart, that day, so it looks to me like he's lying as well.

Right now I'm thinking Katsuki, Tally/UT, Kmd as our scumteam (in that order)

And it's pretty obvious Katsuki is scum

Vote Katsuki

[The Fonz]

LMP's accusation that Kat was not scumhunting is simply untrue. He made a scumbuddy case on MoI/LMP based on their actions in thread (both calling UT each other's buddies) and his opinion that MoI was ignoring meta evidence knowledge he had about Katsuki's play.

1. Where is the case you speak of having seen Katsuki make?

Jahudo already pointed this out, so I'm not sure why I have to restate this:

A)

i)

I do not get all the shenanigans going about with UT's list. It basically consisted of the first four names that appeared in this game (MOI, myself, charter via MOI vote, and LMP via discussion).

Players who have attack said list and hung on: LMP

- Ooo look at rajr hop onto MOI wagon in #51. Bus more.
- Rajr #60 is weak.
- #69:

ii)

Cute, both MOI and LMP are calling UT each other's scumbuddy.
Continuation on this point, both are throwing a shitload of smokescreens at each other as of the most recent page.
- LMP is being unusually evasive thus far.
- LMP #81 shows how he is further analyzing what was a random list from UT. Both he and MOI are paying FAR too much attention to it.

iii)

- Talitha's entrance is VERY underwhelming. Takes rather weak stances, and ends with soft vote on rajr. HMM.

i)

Here Kat is saying UT's list is not scummy, and those attacking it are suspicious, esp. LMP

ii)

Points out a connection between you and LMP

iii)

Points out one of the scummy things about Tally

Katsuki trying to downplay UT's list is fascinating.

iv)

You know what else is fascinating? Both your votes being on UT, and both claiming that UT lynch will reveal info about the other.

iv)

Kat elaborates on his 'MOI and LMP are bussing' meme. Like I said, I drew a different conclusion from these interactions: that it looked more like LMP was really trying to get you lynched for basically nothing. But that doesn't mean Katsuki's argument is invalid.

Now note at this point, I'm not saying Katsuki's case is

good.

There's obviously a ton of confirmation bias etc in there, but that doesn't make it 'not scumhunting.'

v)

and MOI, yes, I was most definately scum-avoiding this thread.
Did you honestly expect to get a meaningful answer out of that useless question (and fake pressuring)?

v)

Basically, he's saying: asking someone if they're deliberately avoiding the thread, which is pretty much something only scum would do, is not likely to produce any useful reactions, since the only possible answer from anyone is 'no.' Therefore, he's accusing you of fake scumhunting. Which is not entirely unreasonable.

vi)

This post told me all I needed to know about MOI alignment, and it also did not give me good vibes about my hammer.

Essentially, this is a post town-MOI would NEVER make. If my gut is 100% in finding non-town fate, I'm sure it's just as accurate with you.

vi)

Gut, sure, but gut is scumhunting.

2. How is his opinion that I’m ignoring meta-evidence valid at all when the meta we share shows him being tagged as scum by me?

I'd like a clarification from Kat on this. As far as I can make out, Kat is alleging that you are attacking him for types of behaviour you know full well are typical of him as town. I see later on that you are basically claiming that most of your meta on him is a scum game.

If this is true, it makes Kat's argument significantly weaker, though: is the behaviour you're attacking him for here also present in the mod-abandoned town game you mentioned? He also mentioned that you've modded a game he was in: I presume he was town there?

Like people to at least take some notice of the fact that Katsuki is taking positions, scumhunting and making stands, even if his reasoning IS very noobish.

Nice of you to attempt to play the newb card for Kats. He clearly isn’t new.

Nice strawman. 'His reasoning is noobish' is not 'he's a new player' it's 'his reasoning is on the kind of basic, shallow/omgussy/confirmation bias etc level associated with newer players.' This is the exact argument ABR used in Hell on Earth as scum, incidentally, when I attacked him correctly for attempting to push a wagon on a similar kind of player (had been playing for a while, sucked at mafia, but was trying so not a VI).

I hate the newbie card more than anyone on m'scum. But people need to learn the difference between justifying scummy behaviour on the grounds that the player is new, and pointing out that a newer/bad player is not, in fact, all that scummy.

I’ll dispute your incorrect assertion that he is doing any scum-hunting at all.

I'll dispute your utterly untrue assertion that he isn't.


Now let's talk hammer again. Can you explain precisely what scum has to gain there from that kind of statement? The simplest explanation to me seems to be that he hammered, then you made, in his view, a very scummy post, so he regretted the hammer because he felt that the post you made in twilight made you more likely scum than Raj.

Your interpretation seems to be that he was scum trying to distance himself from his own hammer, that somehow this showed that he knew Raj was town, and was unaware that sharing this would implicate him (now who's calling Kat noobish?) This is a much more convoluted explanation than the first one, and worst, you're acting like it's for sure the case that this is the true reason behind it.

[Katsuki]

2. How is his opinion that I’m ignoring meta-evidence valid at all when the meta we share shows him being tagged as scum by me?

I'd like a clarification from Kat on this. As far as I can make out, Kat is alleging that you are attacking him for types of behaviour you know full well are typical of him as town. I see later on that you are basically claiming that most of your meta on him is a scum game.

I was town in Magicians Mafia, although MOI died N0, he followed the game.

I normally hate to play the meta card, but skim my completed games if you guys want.
I don't get why MOI keeps pushing LOTR mafia, as I practically claimed scum in that game (and there was a whole discussion in dead QT about my terribad play). If he has reasons to connect my play here with there, I would love to hear it.

[Katsuki]

@MOD: Fix quotetags?

Done.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Jahudo already pointed this out, so I'm not sure why I have to restate this:

Because you have said repeatedly that you find Katsuki to be scum-hunting. Regardless of what Jahudo says I want to see your reasons for thinking so. I thought that was clear by my specific request.

i) Here Kat is saying UT's list is not scummy, and those attacking it are suspicious, esp. LMP

ii) Points out a connection between you and LMP

iii) Points out one of the scummy things about Tally

i) So he is scum-hunting by saying that LMP is scummy for attacking / drawing attention to Untrod’s list, which UT has stated specifically (and I also think was Obv) was a tool to get discussion going. I don’t think it is a non-Townie thought process to question Untrod as LMP did. So I don’t see any significant scum-hunting in this statement.

ii) That’s not scum-hunting but an observation that shows ZERO scum thought process. No explanation as to why both of us suspecting Untrod early on and suspecting the other for differing reasons means we are buddies.

iii) Not a single thing said here about Tally being scummy. Just that she was underwhelming. Thus this is the same exact soft type of stance he accuses Tally of.

iv) Kat elaborates on his 'MOI and LMP are bussing' meme. Like I said, I drew a different conclusion from these interactions: that it looked more like LMP was really trying to get you lynched for basically nothing. But that doesn't mean Katsuki's argument is invalid.

Now note at this point, I'm not saying Katsuki's case is good. There's obviously a ton of confirmation bias etc in there, but that doesn't make it 'not scumhunting.'

So the ‘case’ here is that we both suspect UT and think the other may be linked to him, and his logical conclusion is that LMP and I are bussing each other and not UT? Makes zero sense.

I disagree with your conclusion. His case is deeply flawed. Which is a sign, to me, of faked scum-hunting from scum.

v) Basically, he's saying: asking someone if they're deliberately avoiding the thread, which is pretty much something only scum would do, is not likely to produce any useful reactions, since the only possible answer from anyone is 'no.' Therefore, he's accusing you of fake scumhunting. Which is not entirely unreasonable.

The whole purpose of the question about avoiding the thread is not the answer. It’s to continue to point out that Katsuki continued to duck pressure.

And his accusation that I’m ‘fake-scumhunting’ is reasonable, but my repeated assertions of the same thing about him aren’t valid? When I say he isn’t scum-hunting that’s exactly what I mean … he’s not doing real scum-hunting.

vi) Gut, sure, but gut is scumhunting.

Not if he can’t articulate, after the fact, why it is scummy. He, when questioned about that post later was unable to say ANYTHING about why it was scummy.

If this is true, it makes Kat's argument significantly weaker, though: is the behaviour you're attacking him for here also present in the mod-abandoned town game you mentioned? He also mentioned that you've modded a game he was in: I presume he was town there?

In the game I co-modded he was scum for the record.

In the mod abandoned game he certainly did not lurk out pressure. When he, as a one-shot Vig, came under fire for a bad claim he fought back tooth and nail. A far cry from his behavior here.

Nice strawman. 'His reasoning is noobish' is not 'he's a new player' it's 'his reasoning is on the kind of basic, shallow/omgussy/confirmation bias etc level associated with newer players.' This is the exact argument ABR used in Hell on Earth as scum, incidentally, when I attacked him correctly for attempting to push a wagon on a similar kind of player (had been playing for a while, sucked at mafia, but was trying so not a VI).

I do not equal ABR. Attempting to link his behavior as scum to me is at best flawed and potentially scummy.

Your nit-picking about the specific definition about your meaning of noobish does not a single thing to abate my observation. You are attempting to explain away Katsuki’s behavior as typical of a VI style player. That’s a completely invalid assertion. Katsuki is clearly not a VI. I’m attacking Katsuki for what I feel is scummy behavior, no matter how you and Jahudo have tried to portray said behavior as from a VI style player.

I hate the newbie card more than anyone on m'scum. But people need to learn the difference between justifying scummy behaviour on the grounds that the player is new, and pointing out that a newer/bad player is not, in fact, all that scummy.

Katsuki is not a new player so why you make this grand theory statement is puzzling.

Your interpretation seems to be that he was scum trying to distance himself from his own hammer, that somehow this showed that he knew Raj was town, and was unaware that sharing this would implicate him (now who's calling Kat noobish?) This is a much more convoluted explanation than the first one, and worst, you're acting like it's for sure the case that this is the true reason behind it.

Yes, that’s my intpretation. Mafia is not a game of absolutes. We make our own judgements about players actions and motivations. But you clearly know this.

Is it worse that you are acting like it’s for sure your interpretation is the true reason behind it?

I love the assumption you make that Kats would be unaware that it might implicate him in some players eyes. He might well have been aware yet thought trying to push immediately on me, who was under pressure Day 1, would be a good ploy. At that juncture no-one had been looking significantly at him as a suspect.

Finally a question for you

– now that LMP has flipped Town what does this new information change about your previous assumptions regarding interactions others had with him?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I was town in Magicians Mafia, although MOI died N0, he followed the game.

I normally hate to play the meta card, but skim my completed games if you guys want.
I don't get why MOI keeps pushing LOTR mafia, as I practically claimed scum in that game (and there was a whole discussion in dead QT about my terribad play). If he has reasons to connect my play here with there, I would love to hear it.

No, I didn’t ‘follow the game’. I read the Dead QT and occasionally looked at the thread to see who died or to reference specific posts that cropped up in the Dead QT. Please don’t try to say I carefully read through a Large Themed Game to scum-hunt when I died N0.

I’m pushing LOTR Mafia because I identified you as scum there. Here I see scum play out of you. I bring it up to counter your ‘meta’ evidence stating I’m ignoring your general play.

In summary is your assertion is that I properly saw you as scum in LOTR, observed your scum play as Mod in Castlevania, and when I see what I think is scum-play here I’m ignoring your meta? I just want to be clear.

[Katsuki]

So your point with LOTR mafia is that you read me as scum (which everyone and their granny did) there, and hence believe you have read me properly here?

As I say again, please explain how it connects to this game. If your only reasoning is

"I, along with everyone else, indentified you as scum in that game hence I can read you here"

, then it really isn't evidence at all.

I was town in Magicians Mafia, although MOI died N0, he followed the game.

No, I didn’t ‘follow the game’. I read the Dead QT and occasionally looked at the thread to see who died or to reference specific posts that cropped up in the Dead QT.

Please don’t try to say I carefully read through a Large Themed Game to scum-hunt when I died N0.

http://www.quicktopic.com/45/H/UHZfLdKE9Hu proves otherwise.

MOI QT #40, #46, #51, #53, #56, #63 all show that you are actively reading and keeping up with the game. If this isn't "following the game", I don't know what is.
Oh hey, you know what else is a gem? You calling me scum in this game as well (from the dead QT).

[MagnaofIllusion]

As I say again, please explain how it connects to this game. If your only reasoning is "I, along with everyone else, indentified you as scum in that game hence I can read you here", then it really isn't evidence at all.

It connects because I read your play as scummy here. The evidence is your play. Strawmanning it to say that LOTR is the only thing I have on you is terribad.

MOI QT #40, #46, #51, #53, #56, #63 all show that you are actively reading and keeping up with the game. If this isn't "following the game", I don't know what is.

Those posts do?

QT 40 is Fate impersonnating me in the QT as I state in 41. Notice the lack of star by the name at 40?
QT 46 is me commenting on Void's suggestion in 45 that Elli is lurking.
QT 51 is me commenting on MPR's statemenat at 50 about who targetted who and a quick glance at the current events in the thread.
QT 56 is me referecing YOUR FLIP, which I stated I looked at, and making further connections via MPR's comments at 50.
QT 63 is a direct question to you after your flip.

What you document here shows I followed along the Dead QT and looked at the thread on occasion. Note that I called you scum in the Dead QT based solely on MPR's action reveal. Thanks for trying, once again, to shift the focus off your scum gameplay.

[Katsuki]

No, those were specific posts by you based on game-related content.
And they were not responses to any dead QT posts.

[MagnaofIllusion]

No, those were specific posts by you based on game-related content.
And they were not responses to any dead QT posts.

No, they were. Repeating things over and over don't make them true.

I love how one of the posts highlighted as evidence wasn't even made by me but you ignore that fact.

[Talitha]

I'm feeling conflicted about the Katsuki wagon because with 4 scum still in play in this game, how likely is it that both our two wagonees are scum? Not too likely, IMO. It was weird that after all your pushing Kats for so long, my vote seemed to really start the Kats wagon rolling - charter & Macavity's votes following mine VERY quickly. I'll hold off on interpreting this until someone flips.

Now that LMP has flipped Town I’d like you to elaborate on this.

LMP town changes things a bit. charter & Macavity's votes might be genuine votes to lynch Kats (and/or save LMP). But. There's a good possibility that one is scum with Kats and wanted to be on that wagon if it ended in a lynch and I think this fits better with the timing of Macavity's vote.
Guess at scum team: Katsuki, Macavity, The Fonz, +?
Anyway,

vote: Katsuki

As the mod mentioned I'm off to the beach for 6 days, starting in a couple of hours. I told him I'd understand if he needs to replace me but hope it won't be necessary. Sorry to all for the bad timing.

[The Fonz]

Jahudo already pointed this out, so I'm not sure why I have to restate this:

Because you have said repeatedly that you find Katsuki to be scum-hunting. Regardless of what Jahudo says I want to see your reasons for thinking so. I thought that was clear by my specific request.

i) Here Kat is saying UT's list is not scummy, and those attacking it are suspicious, esp. LMP

ii) Points out a connection between you and LMP

iii) Points out one of the scummy things about Tally

i) So he is scum-hunting by saying that LMP is scummy for attacking / drawing attention to Untrod’s list, which UT has stated specifically (and I also think was Obv) was a tool to get discussion going. I don’t think it is a non-Townie thought process to question Untrod as LMP did. So I don’t see any significant scum-hunting in this statement.

Basically, your argument here is 'I disagree, therefore it isn't scumhunting.'

ii) That’s not scum-hunting but an observation that shows ZERO scum thought process. No explanation as to why both of us suspecting Untrod early on and suspecting the other for differing reasons means we are buddies.

Is it not obvious why both attacking another player whilst claiming said player was scum with the other could seem scummy? He's saying you are scum together, and trying to distance each other while pushing a mislynch. Jesus.

iii) Not a single thing said here about Tally being scummy. Just that she was underwhelming. Thus this is the same exact soft type of stance he accuses Tally of.

This is another thing I hate. So pointing out something scummy isn't scumhunting unless you put 'And I think this is scummy?' That sentence clearly conveys suspicion of Tally.

At various points, he's been scummy because he gave reasons you thought were bad, because he voted without reasons, and because he gave reasons without voting. Basically, it seems like the only thing you wouldn't find scummy is giving a reason you actually think is good.

iv) Kat elaborates on his 'MOI and LMP are bussing' meme. Like I said, I drew a different conclusion from these interactions: that it looked more like LMP was really trying to get you lynched for basically nothing. But that doesn't mean Katsuki's argument is invalid.

Now note at this point, I'm not saying Katsuki's case is good. There's obviously a ton of confirmation bias etc in there, but that doesn't make it 'not scumhunting.'

So the ‘case’ here is that we both suspect UT and think the other may be linked to him, and his logical conclusion is that LMP and I are bussing each other and not UT? Makes zero sense.

His argument was that you were both voting UT, whilst saying he was the other's scumbuddy. It does make sense. Even if it doesn't to you, you're again pushing 'I disagree with you, therefore you're scum.'

I disagree with your conclusion. His case is deeply flawed. Which is a sign, to me, of faked scum-hunting from scum.

And I utterly disagree with this assertion. A flawed case is nonetheless a case. The quality of logic involved in a case is usually a function of the reasoning abilities of the player, not his alignment. Bad logic is only scummy if you can make the case that the player should have known his logic was bad. You are making the specific case that he is not scumhunting. This is not true.

v) Basically, he's saying: asking someone if they're deliberately avoiding the thread, which is pretty much something only scum would do, is not likely to produce any useful reactions, since the only possible answer from anyone is 'no.' Therefore, he's accusing you of fake scumhunting. Which is not entirely unreasonable.

The whole purpose of the question about avoiding the thread is not the answer. It’s to continue to point out that Katsuki continued to duck pressure.

And his accusation that I’m ‘fake-scumhunting’ is reasonable, but my repeated assertions of the same thing about him aren’t valid? When I say he isn’t scum-hunting that’s exactly what I mean … he’s not doing real scum-hunting.

Who said anything about their validity? The very existence of the arguments is evidence of scumhunting. For the record, as of right now I'm of the mind that you're both wrong. Also, there's a massive difference between someone's scumhunting being fake, and it being nonexistent.

vi) Gut, sure, but gut is scumhunting.

Not if he can’t articulate, after the fact, why it is scummy. He, when questioned about that post later was unable to say ANYTHING about why it was scummy.

Totally untrue. A gut vote is a gut vote. It'd be nice if he could work out what specific thing was giving him the bad feeling, but not being able to do so doesn't mean the feeling didn't exist. Shitty Vollkan argument.

If this is true, it makes Kat's argument significantly weaker, though: is the behaviour you're attacking him for here also present in the mod-abandoned town game you mentioned? He also mentioned that you've modded a game he was in: I presume he was town there?

In the game I co-modded he was scum for the record.

In the mod abandoned game he certainly did not lurk out pressure. When he, as a one-shot Vig, came under fire for a bad claim he fought back tooth and nail. A far cry from his behavior here.

Link please.

Nice strawman. 'His reasoning is noobish' is not 'he's a new player' it's 'his reasoning is on the kind of basic, shallow/omgussy/confirmation bias etc level associated with newer players.' This is the exact argument ABR used in Hell on Earth as scum, incidentally, when I attacked him correctly for attempting to push a wagon on a similar kind of player (had been playing for a while, sucked at mafia, but was trying so not a VI).

I do not equal ABR. Attempting to link his behavior as scum to me is at best flawed and potentially scummy.

'I've seen scum use that argument' is entirely valid. You attempted to nitpick my description of Katsuki as newbish, which he clearly is, by pointing that he's not new, which I never said he was.

Your nit-picking about the specific definition about your meaning of noobish does not a single thing to abate my observation. You are attempting to explain away Katsuki’s behavior as typical of a VI style player. That’s a completely invalid assertion. Katsuki is clearly not a VI. I’m attacking Katsuki for what I feel is scummy behavior, no matter how you and Jahudo have tried to portray said behavior as from a VI style player.

Distinction between bad player and VI, please. Bad players fail logic, but they try to find scum and give opinions etc. VIs do not really play the game. I am saying that Katsuki is a weak player. I think this is an entirely fair characterisation. If you have evidence of Kat using brilliant logic as town somewhere, please provide it.

I hate the newbie card more than anyone on m'scum. But people need to learn the difference between justifying scummy behaviour on the grounds that the player is new, and pointing out that a newer/bad player is not, in fact, all that scummy.

Katsuki is not a new player so why you make this grand theory statement is puzzling.

Note the use of 'new/bad.' It isn't me who's the nitpicker here. Really, his quality of play is a red herring: I'm arguing the things you're calling him out for are things I don't think are scummy. He's tunnelling, suffering confirmation bias, and isn't brilliant at explaining himself. These aren't scumtells imho.

Your interpretation seems to be that he was scum trying to distance himself from his own hammer, that somehow this showed that he knew Raj was town, and was unaware that sharing this would implicate him (now who's calling Kat noobish?) This is a much more convoluted explanation than the first one, and worst, you're acting like it's for sure the case that this is the true reason behind it.

Yes, that’s my intpretation. Mafia is not a game of absolutes. We make our own judgements about players actions and motivations. But you clearly know this.

What I'm saying is that your explanation is incredibly far-fetched, and looks like evidence of 'I've decided Katsuki's scum, and here's what that would have meant if he's scum' rather than 'I think this is actually the most plausible explanation for what happened.'

Is it worse that you are acting like it’s for sure your interpretation is the true reason behind it?

I'm acting like mine is more likely, because, you know, yours is totally irrational and seems to have 'Katsuki is scum' as one of its premises. IF he were scum THEN he might have been trying to do THIS based on having THIS mindset... it's the sort of thing Quagmire terms a 'house of cards.' When I scumhunt, I look at actions and try to see if the town motivation is more plausible than the scum one. Here, it is. Tally's behaviour by contrast seems to make more sense from a scum perspective.

Finally a question for you

– now that LMP has flipped Town what does this new information change about your previous assumptions regarding interactions others had with him?

By removing what I was taking as a strong LMP-scum possibility, Tally's wagoning looks even worse. I'd quite like to know whether she actually suspects Katsuki or not when she gets back.

As noted, I'm not sure what difference it makes re: Charter. It removes the chainsaw possibility, but it also leaves charter as the scummiest-looking remaining player on a very scummy-looking wagon. I know peanut's not scum, I'd be kind of surprised if Katsuki is scum, that only leaves charter and MacLock. At least one of these I think is scum, and I'm more sure on charter.

I think it basically guarantees that Tally and Kats are not scum together. Since I think Tally is really scummy, that's another point in Kat's favour.

In the somewhat unlikely event of Kat-scum, I would say there's a pretty strong UT-Kat connection there.

[The Fonz]

Ah, I see Talitha's voted Kat. That's both scummy, and not particularly surprising.

[Katsuki]

For the record, the mod-abandoned game MOI is referring to was my first ever game of online mafia.

I've already learned that running around like a headless chicken is not particularly effective. (Although, I tunneled scum all game).

[Katsuki]

No, those were specific posts by you based on game-related content.
And they were not responses to any dead QT posts.

No, they were. Repeating things over and over don't make them true.

I love how one of the posts highlighted as evidence wasn't even made by me but you ignore that fact.

I like how you are straight up lying.