Open 268: Raise the White Flag (Game Over)

[Equinox]

Vote Count 3.07

Nachomamma8 (2) - themanhimself, Lindisfarne

Not Voting (5) - andrew94, bvoigt, Nachomamma8, rekirtS, SnakePlissken

With 7 alive, it's 4 to lynch.

The deadline is Wednesday, January 19, 11:59 PM EST (UTC-5).

President Kennedy

Nachomamma8 replaces Chaotic Neutrality! Welcome!

[bvoigt]

@Lindis: I don't buy the replacing-out thing at all. It looks to me like CN made one last post in both of his games, then requested replacement in both of them. However, you do make some other good points.

From my point of view, there are six people who might be scum. andrew94 is hard to read, so I'd rather not lynch him until we (hopefully) get a scum flip, making it easier to analyze connections. Lindisfarne is probably my strongest town read at this point. He makes good cases with lots of analysis. And SnakePlissken may have town-telled when he said, "I could just imagine you in a QT laughing with your fellow scums about just how clever this whole plot is," even though they don't have daytalk.

Then, by process of elimination, we have Chaotic Neutrality, rekirtS, and themanhimself. Right? I'll go reread them now.

[bvoigt]

(I got sidetracked.)

rekirtS

In addition to the stuff I've already mentioned, his D1 play gives me a bad feeling. It's like he's trying too hard to appear town: calling out lurkers in ISO #1, requesting a vote count in ISO #3, and letting everyone know that Werewolf is at L-1 in ISO #6. Then on D2, rekirtS is suddenly afraid to place a vote. When I call him out for it, and also speculate about a Snake/rekirtS team, he votes Snake for (IMO) a silly reason.

Chaotic Neutrality

I don't really have much to add to Lindisfarne's wallposts, but here's a summary in case it was tl;dr. First, he was on both bandwagons, which isn't scummy by itself (I did the same thing, after all). However, the D1 wagon was led by yabbaguy, his first serious vote. And the D2 wagon was led by Lindisfarne (replacing Shotty), his first vote on D2. Basically, he followed experienced players onto the wagons despite being suspicious of those players.

CN also contradicts himself. In ISO #7, he votes Shotty and says the vote is subject to change, yet attacks Cookie strongly for not thinking Shotty is scum: "Are you really trying to argue he's TOWN because he hammered so ridiculously? I think that's the most ridiculous argument I've ever heard to keep VI scum in the game." Then, he argues that the same player slot is town in ISO #22: "He lead the lynch, quite boldly, something that scum wouldn't do." In other words, being bold was a scumtell for Shotty, but a towntell for Lindis?

silverbullet999/themanhimself

For whatever reason, I just can't get a read on this slot. I'd say the third mafioso is either TMH or Andrew.

[SnakePlissken]

Being as there's been no quick vote which the mafia could have ended this game, I'm starting to think CN IS scum. So therefore someone can throw in the hammer.

Vote Chaotic Neutrality

[Lindisfarne]

Snake. Why are you voting CN. You've given no reason. I'm all for lynching him, but I'm bothered someone would vote him without reason. It's the equivalent to me of just posting a vote and nothing else.

Unvote

[SnakePlissken]

I did, it's a logical vote. If we believe you are town and you place a vote on, with 3 scum weighing in quickly if you've picked a town member they'd be in a stronger position to win the game tomorrow. However they didn't which leads me to conclude that CN is scum, as they haven't voted him off.

[Nachomamma8]

I'll be reading back through the thread as I defend myself, so I'm lacking quite a bit of context right now. However, I strongly believe that the SnakePlissken vote is an attempt to quickhammer, and that themanhimself is a scumbuddy of his.

Themanhimself tosses down a vote in LyLo with absolutely no reasoning whatsoever. He says he's done some "ISO reading, basic vote-counting and examined voting patterns", but he has absolutely nothing to show for it. Themanhimself, do you actually have a case for me to respond to?

SnakePlissken's vote comes immediately after Lindis's, with only andrew and bvoigt posting inbetween. His reasoning is "no scum quickhammer", but he never gave a chance to see if the scum hammered after Lindis's vote, and he doesn't seem to consider themanhimself as mafia for a moment. Snake, why is TMH town to you and why didn't you wait to see if the mafia would actually hammer if you were going to use "no quicklynch" as your reasons?

[Nachomamma8]

Why would scum let two people, who are good logical players, live through NKs, while not applying pressure for them to be lynched? Makes no sense.

Well, you haven't been lynching correctly. So they might just be letting you do all of the legwork for them. This sort of thing only works after a scumflip, honestly.

It IS true! Look at how many games the scum have lurked throughout and WON! I'm sure EVERYONE can give you stories of it happening, because it isn't a rare occurrence. Regardless, we have only a few days left: What more influence do they need to acquire? The game is already pretty much in shambles. This is the perfect chance for scum to sit back, and let the town pretty much fall apart. This is an exceptionally weak argument CN, most anyone could dispute it. I'm surprised, you normally have better points than this.

I'd agree with you, but I fail to see how a disagreement in a point of theory makes CN scum.

What. What? Ok everyone, check this out!

CN's last post in THIS game was at 12:47
He then makes a post in another game at 12:55
Here's where it gets good: he then requests a replacement in this game at 12:57.

Two Minutes. You mean to tell me, that in the span of two minutes, something comes up that causes you to have to quit a game that is in LYLO? I call bullshit.

He then requests replacement in another game at 12:58, a game that was on... Page 5. You should be viewing it as a towntell that he felt strongly enough about this game to make a post in it before he left; if he was scum and didn't believe anything he was saying, then what reason would he have to post here anymore? He wouldn't be believing what he was saying, and he'd probably only be incriminating himself... But if he was town, he knows that he's town, he believes that your case is wrong, and he wants to set you right.

Eh? Its a pretty ok question, and silver's original answer was funky. Why FOS someone for wanting to know a question that has some pertinence to the game?

Well, if they believed that chkflip was being insistent in getting an answer that really didn't matter, it could be scum trying to look helpful by getting an answer to a question that didn't really matter. It'd be like me asking if you liked your apples dipped in chocolate or caramel, and focusing on nothing but getting the answer to to that question.

I can see where theman was going with his points, that's pretty nuts.

Being wrong isn't a scumtell, even if you're really, REALLY wrong.

He then FOS's Andrew because Andrew wouldn't...join the wagon? Wut?

What's wrong with garnering support for a wagon? If you believe strongly about something, then there's no problem in pressuring those that aren't following you to follow you.

CN wants to disavow shotty's meta, reasoning being that it all cannot be ignored (given that he pulled a lot of scummy actions).

How is wanting to disavow meta equal to reasoning that it everything scummy someone does can't be ignored? Do you think that if someone has a scummmy meta, then they should be unlynchable? If not, does this mean you disavow their meta?

Truth value goes down the hole. CN made it sound like (remember, we are ditching the meta, which means shotty's actions can only be scummy) shotty is a near danger to humanity, let alone the game. If CN really felt that way: ok, fine, all the power to him. However, he then says he's going to reread and might change his vote? It means he himself didn't fully believe in what he was saying. He just busted in, threw down a vote and tossed up his lean-to reasoning (bear in mind, he didn't even reread the first day yet before plopping down his vote). This doesn't sit well with me.

Well, he said he didn't want every scummy thing Shotty said disappearing into the cracks, not that he wanted to disregard meta completely. So, your point is invalid.

He then unvotes and votes Stefunny (Also proven town).
When I join in

(on this vote on proven town)

, him and I have some back and forth, and he makes the point to say "I disagree with half" of my arguments. yet never really clarifies on it.

The words in the second set of paranthesis are mine to show the problem with the first set of parenthesis.
What's the problem of disagreeing with half of someone's arguments, and not clarifying on it? He was pointing out that he thought you were stretching a few things, but didn't clarify on it because he was voting with you.

I made my case on CHK. Barring an earlier vote on CHK in d1 that was, honestly, bullshit; CN left the dude alone. Now he votes him. and tosses up a paragraph on why CHK is a good scum choice in ISO 19. Odd, didn't he disagree with "roughly half" of what I say? Why is he so confident in a vote when I was the one pursuing him, especially if he isn't down with half of my points. His actions contradict his words.

Hm. Disagreeing with half isn't equal with disagreeing with all. Sounds to me like he agreed with the OTHER half of your posting.

First off, he is a copy cat. I had CHK as my first suspect, and he voted him. My second suspect on the list was Bvoigt, who is CN's prime suspect. Whatever happened to disagreeing with roughly half of my points? I find it ironic he says not to narrow down the list to just people on the wagon, and one of his prime reasons on bvoigt was his voting positions on the wagons. Contradictory. HE then goes so far as to say snake and bvoigt are scumbuddies...for tunneling each other the whole game? Bear in mind, the only negativity he had towards snake/cookie was snapping at him in d2 in for cookie not being down with a shotty vote. Where did this come from?

It's not always scummy to change your mind. Townies reread the game at times, they figure out their old posting was wrong... Don't these things happen with you?

WHOA THERE! He trusts me because I lead the charge against CHK? And scum wouldn't do that? What about shotty? You went off about how it was ridiculous to think shotty was town for hammering, you yelled at cookie for thinking scum wouldn't be so bold, yet you buddy up with me for being bold; when you would have condemned my predecessor for it? BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUULLSHIIIIIIIIIIT.

The boldness of leading the lynch on a townie versus hammering a townie is HUGE.

He eventually peters out, going 3 days without posting. His logic is silly. He is afraid to lose...and afraid to push for anyone in the chance he may lead town to lose. He is aware we only have 5 days left (at the time) and yet he was content to sit back and let the game fizzle, costing town the win REGARDLESS? I can understand the feeling of being on the losing team, but at least I try to be productive. He sounds sympathetic to town, yet his actions state the opposite.

Why do you think that he would fizzle out like this if he were scum? Don't you think that his activity might increase quite a bit if he believes victory is coming?

He says he will respond to what points of mine he disagrees with, but NEVER does. Then he's gone.

Okay. So personal stuff came up before he responded to how he disagreed with you. This doesn't make him scum in any way at all.

CN bemoaned losing, but never thought to replace out until one guy voted him, and another was going to preen over his posts. I think he was on a personal losing streak, but was sticking with this game since his faction would have won. Now that people are looking into him though, his personal confidence has been somewhat broken and he isn't taking a chance to make a mistake and die. We have little time left, but CN is my most comfortable subject.

Again, you can't call someone scum for personal issues.

[andrew94]

i find it disturbing that nacho is answering for CN = =


also, snake please explain why u voted

[Nachomamma8]

Andrew, I replaced CN. You realize that, right?

[andrew94]

but whatever he does, you dont know why hes doing it.
therefore....

[Nachomamma8]

I know what he's doing lacks scum intent. So I can offer the town intent behind it.

[rekirtS]

I realize what you were trying to say, but I think you slipped and showed that you knew Shotty's alignment. Town, not knowing his alignment, would say: "You would daykill someone and

possibly

put us with 0 mislynches because hes annoying?"

Andrew didn't want to to shoot shotty because of his alignment, he wanted to shoot him because he was annoying. Therefore he would take us to 0 mislynches to get rid of someone who is merely annoying.

Sorry guys quite busy this weekend I'll comment more late sunday/monday.

[andrew94]

...
but if he was scum...
then...
...
...
...
...
..
.

[bvoigt]

I realize what you were trying to say, but I think you slipped and showed that you knew Shotty's alignment. Town, not knowing his alignment, would say: "You would daykill someone and

possibly

put us with 0 mislynches because hes annoying?"

Andrew didn't want to to shoot shotty because of his alignment, he wanted to shoot him because he was annoying. Therefore he would take us to 0 mislynches to get rid of someone who is merely annoying.

Sorry guys quite busy this weekend I'll comment more late sunday/monday.

Exactly. He would take us to 0 mislynches. How do you know that Shotty wouldn't flip scum?

[Nachomamma8]

Andrew, I'd recommend finishing your thoughts more often so people actually know what you're talking about.

[andrew94]

my thoughts: nacho(cn) = town
bvoight = really town
themanhimself = super scum
lindis = his unvote makaes me unsure
snake = super scum + he vote early in lylo
striker= scummy now that i look
3 scum left, 3 scum suspects. how easy?

[bvoigt]

VOTE: SnakePlissken

I've decided that his one towntell shouldn't overrule all the other scumtells (such as the possible quickhammer attempt).

[andrew94]

vote snake

[SnakePlissken]

Here we go then. Andrew just made the top of my most scummy list.

[andrew94]

which originated from 'gut'

[SnakePlissken]

Well it was gut feeling, but now it just looks like your trying to end the day quick.

[andrew94]

if so i would have voted bvoight when you did.

[SnakePlissken]

And being thats what I was called scummy for...

[andrew94]

dude? you placed the vote with almost little prior