Mini 1094 - Mariposa Peak Mafia - Game Over!

[Seraphim]

Vote: singersigner

This is absolutely and completely obvious. If singer is town, she just gave the scum a free ride into the endgame.

[Thor665]

I'm never sad with a 50/50 choice.

@Seraph - why the conditional on the singer accusation there?

[Seraphim]

I'm still not completely discounting shenanigans at this point. We've had one power role flip and I know I'm a watcher, unless the scum is all goons, seems like the town is rather weak...

[Reckamonic]

Aha, this is open. Anyway, I'm fairly sure I have a guilty result today that should make things considerably easier.

I'm a watcher, first of all.

I targeted Thor N1. He was my strongest town read and I felt, out of all the players, he was the towniest. No one visited him.
I targeted Nachomamma N2. Same deal with N1. No one visited him.
I targeted Mothrax N3. I targeted him because of a vibe I got...I dunno Guess what? I got a result. Mothrax was visited last night. Mothrax died last night. Let's do the math. The visitor was the one and only singersigner.

Unless there are some shenanigans in the works, I think the lynch is clear.

I want SS to claim next.

This claim smells funny.

Too much theatrics; something is sitting weirdly with us. Though we don't necessarily like singer's response.

This whole thing kinda reeks of scum bussing scum, to be completely honest. Not sure why this would be optimal play in endgame. We'll wait for the rest of the claims before we make a decision.

Regardless, we've caught at least one scum here:

If Seraphim is telling the truth, singer is scum.
If Seraphim is lying, singer is town and Seraphim is scum.
If Seraphim is bussing, they're both scum.

Waiting to hear the rest of the claims at this point. Who's up next?

[Reckamonic]

Vote: singersigner

This is absolutely and completely obvious. If singer is town, she just gave the scum a free ride into the endgame.

And he forgot to vote her in his post? When he had a VISIT on last night's kill?

[Nachomamma8]

Vanilla claim by singer takes out the possibility of a mafia ninja. I would assume that's why he didn't vote in his first post.

[Thor665]

The lack of immediate vote from Seraphim makes sense though, at that point singer hadn't claimed VT which removed any possible non-scum reasoning for Seraph's results.
I do agree his theatrics (and the logic) of the mothrax target and then the later soft distance of 'singer might be dumb town' is needling me harshly, but the delayed vote doesn't ring any bells for me at all.

Edit: ninja - everywhere.

[Thor665]

Oh, and Lat is the next claim. For those keeping score.

[Reckamonic]

Oh, right. Okay.

Carry on then.

GO LAT GO.

[singersigner]

Is there any other way of explaining a false result on a VT other than it being claimed by scum? I'm pretty sure there isn't in a normal...

Reck...what about my response? Also, Nacho's right. Either that, or if I were a cop/doctor. I can't think of too many other scenarios...

[Thor665]

@singer - if you were a cop/doc then watcher Seraph should have seen two people target mothrax. In all honesty Nacho was more on the money then myself because really the only way for you not to be scum in Seraph's eyes is if there is a scum ninja role (or a bus driver/redirector sorta deal?)

I'll be wanting to discuss the mothrax targeting in any case once the claims are done with.

@Lat - also, delay to claim is scummy. Speed is pro-town

[Reckamonic]

Is there any other way of explaining a false result on a VT other than it being claimed by scum? I'm pretty sure there isn't in a normal...

Reck...what about my response? Also, Nacho's right. Either that, or if I were a cop/doctor. I can't think of too many other scenarios...

The weird thing, here, is that you're looking for a way to clear Seraphim as town. Reck does that too...when he's scum and a town PR catches him. If you know you're a VT, your *first* response should be that he's scum lying in endgame in order to secure a mislynch,

not

"Hmm, let's see what ridiculous circumstances would lead to him getting a result on me".

At this point, it looks like singer has a more likely chance of being scum than Seraphim. And what about your response?

@singer - if you were a cop/doc then watcher Seraph should have seen two people target mothrax. In all honesty Nacho was more on the money then myself because really the only way for you not to be scum in Seraph's eyes is if there is a scum ninja role (or a bus driver/redirector sorta deal?)

I'll be wanting to discuss the mothrax targeting in any case once the claims are done with.

@Lat - also, delay to claim is scummy. Speed is pro-town

Can you explain what a scum ninja is?

[DemonHybrid]

Vote Count

Day 4 Vote Count (#2)

Seraphim

- 1 (singersigner)

singersigner

- 1 (Seraphim)

Not Voting

- 5 (Thor665, Reckamonic, Lateralus22, Powerrox93, Nachomamma8)

With 7 players, it takes 4 to lynch and 4 for a No Lynch. Deadline is scheduled for Saturday, January 29th, 2011 at 1:15 PM Eastern Standard Time.

[/area]

[singersigner]

@singer - if you were a cop/doc then watcher Seraph should have seen two people target mothrax. In all honesty Nacho was more on the money then myself because really the only way for you not to be scum in Seraph's eyes is if there is a scum ninja role (or a bus driver/redirector sorta deal?)

I'll be wanting to discuss the mothrax targeting in any case once the claims are done with.

@Lat - also, delay to claim is scummy. Speed is pro-town

Cuz dead mothrax=1 scum + 1 cop/doc. Gotcha. (I'm actually proud of myself for not asking you to explain that to me, lol)

I'm unfamiliar with the scum ninja role...but I'm pretty sure that, along with the bus driver/redirector...those aren't mini normal roles.

Also, Thor, it seems as though you've already decided to believe Seraph's claim ("because really the only way for you not to be scum in Seraph's eyes is if..."). Why?

Reck, do you believe this is an honest bussing deal? Because scum would have to get through another day that way. It's been established that we're in LYLO, so it would be more beneficial for scum to go three*scum* against one*townie* as opposed to two*scum* against one*scum*. There would be no reason for scum to go against one of their own unless they genuinely thought they couldn't get one of the remaining three townies on board with their mislynch target.

Preview Edit:

Is there any other way of explaining a false result on a VT other than it being claimed by scum?

I'm pretty sure there isn't in a normal...

Note the bolded. I'm eliminating all other options to prove that Seraph is scum. If I thought there were any other way that it could still be TvT, I wouldn't have voted in my first response to him. You forget that my FIRST response was SERAPH IS SCUM.

Re: my response, you said you didn't like it. Since it's more or less incriminating to just state something is worthy of disapproval without explaining why...mostly just curious as to why you didn't like it, that's all.


Something I CAN deduce, however, is that there is at least one, if not two other townies within the combination of Nacho, Thor, and Reckamonic, since if they were all scum, they could just hop on to either wagon. It's likely that at least Thor is scum with Seraph. It seemed a little convenient that Thor wanted either Reck or Seraph to claim first. Reck kind of just jumped on that voluntarily (though unless there's a counter-claim, I'm highly inclined to believe him...though EFF, if they're scum, they had all the time in the world to think of "good" claims to fuck with the town).

DemonHybrid:

IT'S NOT FAIR IF THOR, RECK, AND SERAPH ARE

ALL

SCUM TOGETHER.

[Seraphim]

Now that's we've determined beyond a shadow of a doubt that singersigner is scum, can we please quiet down so we can out her buddies?

[singersigner]

Now that's we've determined beyond a shadow of a doubt that singersigner is scum, can we please quiet down so we can out her buddies?

What's that? Flailing scum?

I THINK SO.

I'd LOVE to see how you've "determined beyond a shadow of a doubt" that I'm scum.

Lat, I don't mind if you refrain from claiming until Seraph figures out my supposed scumbuddies. This oughta be good...

[Nachomamma8]

No Lat, please claim.

SS, he already claimed a watcher result on you targeting mothrax, who is now dead. You claimed vanilla. Now, all possibilities other than you being fakeclaiming townie + mafia ninja have been taken care of, and if that's the case, then I would probably kill you.

I targeted him because of a vibe I got...I dunno

This is what bothered me earlier. Seraphim, you know what gut is.

The theatrics don't bother me. The theatrics are a call back to the old Seraphim, the anime avatar Seraphim.

[Seraphim]

It was more than gut though.

...

I dunno.

Never mind...

...

Upon self-reflection it probably was gut.

SS's request for Lat to delay claiming reflects badly on both of them.

[Reckamonic]

Also, Thor, it seems as though you've already decided to believe Seraph's claim ("because really the only way for you not to be scum in Seraph's eyes is if..."). Why?

You're completely misrepping Thor - he's saying from Seraph's point of view, you have to be scum unless you're a ninja. He in no way, shape, or form implied anything from HIS point of view.

Reck, do you believe this is an honest bussing deal? Because scum would have to get through another day that way. It's been established that we're in LYLO, so it would be more beneficial for scum to go three*scum* against one*townie* as opposed to two*scum* against one*scum*. There would be no reason for scum to go against one of their own unless they genuinely thought they couldn't get one of the remaining three townies on board with their mislynch target.

Did you even read what we wrote? Here, allow us to bold it for you:

This whole thing kinda reeks of scum bussing scum, to be completely honest.

Not sure why this would be optimal play in endgame.

We were implying that the attacks between the two of you didn't feel genuine on either end. Seraphim due to the theatrics of his claim, and then you due to the fact that you tried to help Seraphim weasel out of it.

Re: my response, you said you didn't like it. Since it's more or less incriminating to just state something is worthy of disapproval without explaining why...mostly just curious as to why you didn't like it, that's all.

Here, it's this part, specifically.

I'm only a Vanilla Townie, so

unless DH was playing a sick game

with some really weird role (like an insane or random watcher??), or

he messed up somewhere

(which I highly doubt considering the circumstances)…

It sat wrong with us because you were so damn open to the idea of there being an error or wacky mechanic somewhere… which doesn't jive with the rest of your post, which includes a vote on Seraphim and a blatant statement of this being a 1v1 scenario.

What's that? Flailing scum?

Oh, irony, how we love thee. Your response to Seraphim's claim has been textbook flailing: attempt to rationalize why there would be a guilty result on you (instead of directly attacking Seraphim's claim himself), then once the noose started to get tighter and tighter around your neck, you started to misrep people and take their arguments/statements out of context, all the while attacking your attackers (OMGUS much?).

You obviously

had

to counterclaim Seraphim's watch result, but what makes you think Thor665 is more likely to be scum than us? The fact of the matter is, sitting on this end, you have yet to list a reason on why Thor is scummier/we are townier.
What about Lateralus? Or Nachomamma? Or really, anyone else?

You are grasping at straws in order to make people believe your cries of "Conspiracy! Conspiracy!" in hopes that they will turn on your attackers. Occam's Razor would imply that you ARE caught scum. The only thing that is really bothering me now (meh, guess the theatrics can be forgiven) is the fact that Seraphim chose to watch mothrax… who would CERTAINLY not have been our first pick to be watched were we watcher. Not particularly liking Seraphim's #617 where he can't even find an explanation as to why he picked mothrax, but we're disliking SS's reaction and play here much more.

[singersigner]

SS, he already claimed a watcher result on you targeting mothrax, who is now dead. You claimed vanilla. Now, all possibilities other than you being fakeclaiming townie + mafia ninja have been taken care of, and if that's the case, then I would probably kill you.

I don't understand.

The first half of this sounds like it's responding to something I said, but I don't know what.

The second half is incomplete in explanation. What other possibilities are you referring to, and have you already assumed that I'm lying then? This isn't a themed game. Mafia ninja shouldn't even be a possibility.

Preview Edit:

SS's request for Lat to delay claiming reflects badly on both of them.

It could be anyone who decided they wanted to claim; however, your delay to call out my supposed scum partners is scummy. You must be afraid to incriminate other innocent townies or call out your own scum buddies, huh. Yeah, I thought so.

Next time you respond, can you please name the two other players you find scummiest/my supposed partners? If you can't, you're withholding=very anti-town.

I will say, though, that your seemingly random case on me yesterday set my mislynch up perfectly today. You may fool the rest of town, but you don't fool me.


Some more food for thought: wouldn't you think that if he were telling the truth, he should've waited to catch someone in a lie before he knew for sure? Claiming, yes; revealing results, no. He called his result guilty before I even had a chance to claim VT or otherwise. If I claimed cop it would've cleared me, yes?

[Thor665]

Can you explain what a scum ninja is?

Scum who can't be tracked/watched.

Everything else I had to say pretty much Recka just said...so...+1.

[singersigner]

Also, Thor, it seems as though you've already decided to believe Seraph's claim ("because really the only way for you not to be scum in Seraph's eyes is if..."). Why?

You're completely misrepping Thor - he's saying from Seraph's point of view, you have to be scum unless you're a ninja. He in no way, shape, or form implied anything from HIS point of view.

I was not misrepping Thor. He mentioned nothing of Seraph being scum in my eyes which made me think he had already chosen to believe Seraph over me. Hence why I thought he was scummier looking in response to me than you were.

Reck, do you believe this is an honest bussing deal? Because scum would have to get through another day that way. It's been established that we're in LYLO, so it would be more beneficial for scum to go three*scum* against one*townie* as opposed to two*scum* against one*scum*. There would be no reason for scum to go against one of their own unless they genuinely thought they couldn't get one of the remaining three townies on board with their mislynch target.

Did you even read what we wrote? Here, allow us to bold it for you:

This whole thing kinda reeks of scum bussing scum, to be completely honest.

Not sure why this would be optimal play in endgame.

We were implying that the attacks between the two of you didn't feel genuine on either end. Seraphim due to the theatrics of his claim, and then you due to the fact that you tried to help Seraphim weasel out of it.

I was not at all trying to weasel Seraph out of it. It was absolutely to show that this is a mini normal, and that there are no other options other than one or both of us is scum. Don't accuse me of being on his side, please. It's insulting.

Re: my response, you said you didn't like it. Since it's more or less incriminating to just state something is worthy of disapproval without explaining why...mostly just curious as to why you didn't like it, that's all.

Here, it's this part, specifically.

I'm only a Vanilla Townie, so

unless DH was playing a sick game

with some really weird role (like an insane or random watcher??), or

he messed up somewhere

(which I highly doubt considering the circumstances)…

It sat wrong with us because you were so damn open to the idea of there being an error or wacky mechanic somewhere… which doesn't jive with the rest of your post, which includes a vote on Seraphim and a blatant statement of this being a 1v1 scenario.

Again, disproving the fact that it was possible to have something go wrong with that.

What's that? Flailing scum?

Oh, irony, how we love thee. Your response to Seraphim's claim has been textbook flailing: attempt to rationalize why there would be a guilty result on you (instead of directly attacking Seraphim's claim himself), then once the noose started to get tighter and tighter around your neck, you started to misrep people and take their arguments/statements out of context, all the while attacking your attackers (OMGUS much?).

Did I just respond to the SAME THING THREE TIMES? I was absolutely attacking Seraph's claim. He was wrong. Every time I mentioned that there being another scenario other than that was pointing out that it was unrealistic. Again, no misrep against Thor. The fact that you even took it as that...
Wait, attacking my attackers? The only one who's been blatantly gunning for me is Seraph. I'm getting to the bottom of this and not backing down from trying to figure out who's left of the three scum. Something Seraph seems to cowardly to do because he knows that all he needs is to convince town I'm scum and he wins with the rest of scum.

You obviously

had

to counterclaim Seraphim's watch result, but what makes you think Thor665 is more likely to be scum than us? The fact of the matter is, sitting on this end, you have yet to list a reason on why Thor is scummier/we are townier.
What about Lateralus? Or Nachomamma? Or really, anyone else?

I've always thought Lat was scummy. That's why I wanted him to claim next. Nacho...is probably town because of his reaction. Can't get a read on Power and she has yet to respond, so I don't know yet. You and Thor are left with your reactions and gameplay thus far. I've thought Thor was town until his reaction to this and what seemed to be readiness to believe Seraph over me. You...well, I've already stated that your reaction was semi-fencesitting, which was annoying.

You are grasping at straws in order to make people believe your cries of "Conspiracy! Conspiracy!" in hopes that they will turn on your attackers. Occam's Razor would imply that you ARE caught scum. The only thing that is really bothering me now (meh, guess the theatrics can be forgiven) is the fact that Seraphim chose to watch mothrax… who would CERTAINLY not have been our first pick to be watched were we watcher. Not particularly liking Seraphim's #617 where he can't even find an explanation as to why he picked mothrax, but we're disliking SS's reaction and play here much more.

Occam's Razor has absolutely no place in mafia. The mafia gods are insulted that you would even think to use that as any means of a "case" against someone.

You're right about Mothrax being an odd choice. Can you connect the dots, though? It has to do with NK speculation more than anything. Why would you think Mothrax would be the NK choice over way more experienced/intimidating players (i.e. you and Thor)? And who would be a better choice to set up for a false guilty?

[Nachomamma8]

The first half of this sounds like it's responding to something I said, but I don't know what.

I'm responding to you commenting how you'd like to know how Seraphim knows you're scum.

The second half is incomplete in explanation. What other possibilities are you referring to, and have you already assumed that I'm lying then? This isn't a themed game. Mafia ninja shouldn't even be a possibility.

I'm referring to the possibility of you AND Seraphim being town. No, I haven't.

You may fool the rest of town, but you don't fool me.

I certainly hope he doesn't! He's calling you scum in LyLo...

The only thing that is really bothering me now (meh, guess the theatrics can be forgiven) is the fact that Seraphim chose to watch mothrax… who would CERTAINLY not have been our first pick to be watched were we watcher.

Bothering me infinitely more was the fact that mothrax died when you were his only target. But you did claim it, and I sure as hell wouldn't if I were scum in your position so that's some townie points in your direction.

[singersigner]

He says "

we've

determined" like everyone else needs to see how he's right and I'm wrong. I'd love to see how he could do that without just saying, "but I'm rite guyz! she's so scumzzz!"

Ok, so you agree that there's no possibility that we can't BOTH be town.

I'd really like to hear a response from Seraph, and Lat/PR need to come back now.

[Thor665]

@singer - in short, yes, you misunderstood me. I think my posts show an equal level of distrust between you and Seraph. I'll note my mothrax target commentary which is obviously and entirely a ding on Seraph. That said, Watcher is an effing gutsy falseclaim.

@Nacho - Good point about the neighbor target, my thoughts are similar, though the whole WIFOM is annoying. As I said, we really do need to look at that mothrax targeting after the massclaim. It's an odd choice for scum in my opinion, and if Seraph is town it was an odd gut too and he needs to come out with some effort towards figuring out what his gut picked up on.

@Reck - one of your heads appears to have a theatrics read on Seraphim as part of his meta. Looking at the last exchanges I feel as though singer comes across as more honest and upset, and Seraph's post looked really faked to me (#617) what's your read on that post with regards to Seraph's meta of dramatics?