Mini 1111: Wait Your Turn, Tex! (GAME OVER)

[Katsuki]

UA already said most of it, but the main problem that I have with Fate is that he's doing anything to convince us that he's not scum, so much as screaming at us for thinking it. His only defense so far has been meta, which is WIFOM at best- claiming that he must be town because his meta says it doesn't amount to anything, because meta can be faked. So why don't you calm down, and start playing as actual town?

But what does all this say about fate alignment?

[Fritzler]

That has NOTHING to do with WHY you think (or 'imply' of course) that AGar is town(ier) than me.

Or WHY THE HELL you quoted a post I made toward him.

Well you need to add some basic grammar to your post in that case, because there is nothing in that post to indicate that you are talking to AGar over me.

[Xalxe]

I would just like to say good job to Sudo_Nym and UA for stating my points while I was at scouts.

Well done making me look useless.

[Fate]

UA already said most of it, but the main problem that I have with Fate is that he's doing anything to convince us that he's not scum, so much as screaming at us for thinking it. His only defense so far has been meta, which is WIFOM at best- claiming that he must be town because his meta says it doesn't amount to anything, because meta can be faked. So why don't you calm down, and

start playing as actual town?

SEE. NOW THIS IS THE SORT OF SHIT THAT MAKES ME FURIOUS.

I HAVE BEEN PLAYING AS TOWN. THATS ONE OF THE BENEFITS OF MY HYPERACTIVITY, I HAVE TIME TO ADEQUATELY EXPLAIN ALL OF MY REASONINGS AND MOTIVATIONS BEHIND ME POSTS, AS TOWN SHOULD DO (AND AS POKERFACE HAS NOTABLE NOT) WHEN UNDERFIRE

AND

SCUMHUNT.

YOU SITTING THERE PRETENDING LIKE IM ALL DEFENSE AND NOT DOING A BIT OF "ACTUAL TOWN" SCUMHUNTING IS SCUMMY. PLUS YOURE JUST SHEEPIN UA'S POSTS.


NOW, AS HOOPLA SAID, SCUM WILL LIKELY WANT TO SHOOT ME TONIGHT.
NOW, LETS TAKE THAT ONE STEP FURTHER:
WHAT ARE THOSE SCUMBAGS SHOOTING ME DOING

NOW

THEY ARE JUSTIFYING THEIR FATE HATE TO PREPARE FOR THEIR CLAIM TOMORROW, OR THEY ARE SCUMMING ME UP IN TOWNS EYES SO THAT I GET MISVIGGED.

IM UPGRADING AGAR'S SLOT TO TOWN, ILL POST RESPONSE TO HIM IN A SEC.
KATSUKI IS STILL MINDNUMBINGLY FATE-PARANOIDINGLY TOWN.

THAT LEAVES SUDO_NYM AND XALVE.
WITH THE FORMER BEING SCUM ALL AROUND AND THE LATTER BEING SCUM PENDING POKER FACE'S FLIP (ALA HOOPLAS LOGIC)

[Fate]

Hoopla, your logic makes sense, but then the "Oh hay, you found my gambit!" shit is really mucking shit up for me. If it wasn't for that, compounding the insincerity I find in the overzealous attack on Kats, I'd be in stride with that.

Look AGar, now that I see where you're coming from, you're reading my play all wrong.

"Oh hay you fund my gambit!!"" was an attempt to preserve my PRIDE, not a backpedal to explain my play.

If you read Hoopla's logic CLOSER you'll notice: SHE ALREADY WAS EXPLAINING THE PRO-TOWN MOTIVATIONS BEHIND MY PLAY AND THE EXPLANATION AS TO WHY I WAS TOWN.

So, as scum, would I be more likely to come in and say: "yeah Hoopla, you're right, I was just being stupid." ORRRRRRRRR "NO HOOPLA! I was just gambiting hahah you got fooled!"

The latter was an attempt at salvaging my admittedly anti-town play (tbqh I treated this game more as a Marathon with all the vigs involved, without giving the set-up any real thought.)

[Fate]

The game starts immediately with Day One. You may speak to any living members of your group on Day One ONLY, and any Nights, in this Quick Topic:

And look at that, scum can DAYTALK today, which further increases my theory of scum trying to set-up my misvig/explain their shot tomorrow.

Now I've got UA's slot down as town, if only for the SHEER effort UA put in dismantling my posts and the pure Fate-hate I can see behind their posts.

BUT, as may be a more appropriate topic for MD, YEAH YOURE RIGHT UA. No one's defense is ever gonna be rock solid and there will ALWAYS be holes.

That's why scum don't usually bother putting up a defense because:
1. By definition they cannot come across as genuine in explaining their actions
2. MORE posts=MOAR holes to shoot at in never ending spiral.

Whereas TOWN, although flawed and incompletely (see: WIFOM about scum-meta and the like in my posts) FEEL THE NEED to defend themselves because WE KNOW we are being falsely accused and we HAVE pro-town explanations for all of our actions. SURE you don't have to "buy" all the explanations or defense, but you need to look at the GRAND picture, the scumminess of the people voting me, the SCUMHUNTING which I HAVE been doing (its funny as hell no one has called any of my reads, cases, points, or votes (sans Katsuki's) scummy or having flawed reasoning)

[Fate]

So yeah, Idon't want to get into a 10 page quote wall WAR with UA defending my points since UA's attack can be summed up thusly:

"YOUR DEFENSE DOES NOT MAKE YOU TOWN. YOUR SELF-META DOES NOT MAKE YOU TOWN"

to which my response is contained in #155 as well as here more concisely:
"I KNOW. I AM STILL HUNTING SCUM ELSEWHERE, AND I ALSO HAVE THE NEED TO DEFEND MYSELF SINCE I KNOW MY MOTIVATIONS, AND I KNOW THAT SCUM ARE LIKELY ATTACKING ME RIGHT NOW."

[AGar]

Hoopla, your logic makes sense, but then the "Oh hay, you found my gambit!" shit is really mucking shit up for me. If it wasn't for that, compounding the insincerity I find in the overzealous attack on Kats, I'd be in stride with that.

[1] Look AGar, now that I see where you're coming from, you're reading my play all wrong.

[2] "Oh hay you fund my gambit!!"" was an attempt to preserve my PRIDE, not a backpedal to explain my play.

[3] If you read Hoopla's logic CLOSER you'll notice: SHE ALREADY WAS EXPLAINING THE PRO-TOWN MOTIVATIONS BEHIND MY PLAY AND THE EXPLANATION AS TO WHY I WAS TOWN.

[4] So, as scum, would I be more likely to come in and say: "yeah Hoopla, you're right, I was just being stupid." ORRRRRRRRR "NO HOOPLA! I was just gambiting hahah you got fooled!"

[5] The latter was an attempt at salvaging my admittedly anti-town play (tbqh I treated this game more as a Marathon with all the vigs involved, without giving the set-up any real thought.)

[1] & [2] - You're smart enough to realize that in no way shape or form would anyone with a half functioning brain would be like "Oh hey, he explained what he really meant when I pointed it out, he must be telling the truth!"

[3] - I read it quite alright, and I understand that. I'm saying I find enough flaw in everything else to say "That's not convincing enough for me."

[4] - Again, smart enough to know this is WIFOM at best.

[5] - It's not doing it for me.

Honestly, you're playing with a massive case of paranoia, and it looks scummy as hell. Your "defenses" amount to "The people attacking me are scum, because this is my meta!" Whether you see it or not, that's what everyone else seems to be seeing. I'll admit, the scumhunting looks fine, but it's clouded up ridiculously by all the "OMG SCUM IS ATTACKING ME, THEY GONNA KILL ME LIKE THEY DONE DID IN JFK" defenses.

That said, I like neither Sudo, nor Xalxe's followups after UA posted. Sudo's looks like a way to slip past without gaining attention and just being able to point at UA when the hammer falls. Xalxe... he does that same thing, but ALSO tries to give Sudo credit for... doing nothing. Xalxe's looks way worse in my mind.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Xalxe

[Fate]

You're dumbing it down too much, I'm not saying the people are attacking me are scum because they are "ignoring my meta!!" I was using my meta to defend against certain accusations, such as Katsuki's who was using meta AGAINST me.


Like I said, I'm looking for scum on my wagon because 1: its a wagon, and 2: scum have plenty of motivation to set up for "vigging" me tonight, as well as twisting my play and helping the wagon on me grow.

ESPECIALLY if Poker flips scum, whom, by the way, you've neglected to comment on.

[Katsuki]

Speaking of daychat.
Where is Chamber?

[Katsuki]

Agar did a nice hop off, just saying.

I'll look at things either later or tomorrow, not in the mood to read and write real posts.

[Hoopla]

I guess what I essentially want to ask is, do you think it is possible fate is trying to play even-night vig in order to save his shot?

Because I can totally see fate doing this. In fact, it fits perfectly into what amounts to his mad genius.

I think it's less likely Fate is faking it as scum. The fear of not being able to get to use a shot was pretty lucid, which lends credibility to the tell - it seemed like a pretty natural build-up, rather than scum trying to force a passage of play just to drop that supposed town tell. It's possible he's faking this, but it's a little convoluted to assume it was a scumplan from the outset, as it depends on Fate choosing to play in a manner replicating a town role, which in turn depends on Fate even thinking to do this. He then has to execute it convincingly too. Sure, it's an option, but the simplest solution is generally going to be more likely, and in this case, the simplest solution is that his actions have stemmed from being an N2 vig.

UA already said most of it, but the main problem that I have with Fate is that he's doing anything to convince us that he's not scum, so much as screaming at us for thinking it. His only defense so far has been meta, which is WIFOM at best- claiming that he must be town because his meta says it doesn't amount to anything, because meta can be faked. So why don't you calm down, and start playing as actual town?

Yeah, I agree with this too. It's very frustrating to have to deal with someone who constantly defends themself via self-evaluation of their own meta - anyone aware of their own meta has the ability to manipulate it. Meta is only useful when a player doesn't realise, can't stop, or can't predict that a particular piece of their playing is telling. That needs to be judged by others.

[Hoopla]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Xalxe

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Boo Hoopla. Don't let Pokerface get away simply by being inactive!

P.S. Fate bringing up the daytalk thing like that I consider to be a slight town tell.

[Mr. Flay]

Fifth Vote Count of Day One

PokerFace - 5 (UltimaAvalon, Fate, Cogito Ergo Sum, Fritzler, chamber)
Xalxe - 4 (scotmany12, PokerFace, AGar, Hoopla)
Fate - 3 (Katsuki, Xalxe, Sudo_Nym)

Not Voting: nobody!

With twelve alive, seven votes will be needed to lynch.

[Hoopla]

Boo Hoopla. Don't let Pokerface get away simply by being inactive!

P.S. Fate bringing up the daytalk thing like that I consider to be a slight town tell.

I had a mild epiphany, actually, more like a realisation that Pokerface's wagon doesn't make sense if he's scum. If Pokerface is town, I think the scumteam is Xalxe, scotmany, then two of Sudo, chamber, Katsuki, CES.

Help me kill Xalxe please...

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Mind sharing your epiphany?

P.S. including me in that list is unlikely to get me to help.

[Fate]

Unvote:
Vote: Xalxe

Poker is better left to vigs with our collective inability as english speakers to understand what he is saying.

And yes, I am an Even Night vig. Such is obvious to scum so it may as well be to town.

A full breakdown of my thought process this game:
1. Oh cool, the set-up has everyone as a vig. I'll just play as transparently as I can so I don't die tonight and I can shoot tomorrow
2. A Katsuki wagon! Let's see if I can hop on that so one less player to shoot me is alive, I can never read her, and as scum she would shoot me and just claim some BS meta reason.
3. Ah well, PokerFace is acting scummy, as are other [INsert scumhunting]
4. Might as well claim to get this wagon off me-NINJA-oh shit.... Hoopla I didn't even REALIZE that my role was important like that and soft-claiming was bad for town.
5. IT was a gambit! A Fate classix to draw the night kill! JUST LIKEI ALWAYS DO I SWEAR
6. Fuck me Hoopla stop reading me so well, yeah I'm just backtracking to try and salvage my play, but don't point it out.
7. Hmmm if what Hoopla says is true, then scum have to NK me tonight or we have a good chance at winnng tomorrow, so what would they be doing today [Insert scumhunting]

Now Hoopla, but this is more for MD, I disagree that meta is useless if it is known and can be manipulated, its more complicated that that.

TOWN

meta is useless, aka if someone says "Im doing what I was as town!" (aka when I said I was trying not to die N1 and thats what I always do, that was BAD defense), but I'd like to think SCUM self-meta is an actual defense. As we saw in /in-11 mith geniunely defended his towniness that pointing out his distate of Vigs, and how he'd never give town TWO vigs as scum. I just said 'META META BLAHLAH' and ignored it, but scum-meta is USUALLY consistent within a player.

Its like a criminal, criminals have MOs, where they will do certain things to achieve their crime. Aka: A bank robber would NEVER take off his mask, so if someone took off their mask and then said "I would never take off my mask as an actual robber! Why the hell would I do that!?" I'd be inclined to believe them (perhaps an oversimplified example, but you should get the point).

CES being afraid to be included in a list of potential scum is BAD, btw.

[Fate]

So in conclusion: I apologize for my suboptimal play this game, I should've done some math with the night actions rather than saying "ah itll all sort itself out" to try and predict the importance of my role. I'm usually much better at optimizing day play to match my role (aka drawing the kill as bulletproof and vanilla, etc.), but this game I didn't give it any thought, and I'm sorry.

So to the townmembers who suspect me: Give me tonight. The next night feel free to kill me if suspicion still lingers, but at the very least then I can guarantee you another shot that HAS to be claimed (and therefore has to be plausible and appear town motivated at the least) will be fired and I will be doing my best to hit scum.

Thanks,
~Fate

[Hoopla]

^Now there's a gambit, so much of that wall seems just... phony. Questioning my PR read on Fate, hmmm...

[Fate]

heheheehehehehaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

JUST SHOWS YOU CAN'T PREDICT FATE

[Fate]

(but seriously Hoopla that was one of the most genuine posts I've ever made on this site, what the hell are you looking at? Because its so un-Fatelike its phony? I'm an actual human behind my persona, in case you hadn't noticed)

[Hoopla]

heheheehehehehaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

JUST SHOWS YOU CAN'T PREDICT FATE

I honestly think this is your intention sometimes, "IMA DO SUMTHIN CRAZYYY, U CANT READ ME COS IM GAMBIT MASTERURRRBATER, UGHGGHGNVHNE". Yeah, you are hard to read, I guess?. "HURRRR HURR I'M GAMBITTINGGGG THO". Okay, whatever.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

CES being afraid to be included in a list of potential scum is BAD, btw.

I'm not afraid of anything; I just find vague arguments that seem to suggest a higher likelihood of me being scum to be less persuasive than ones that don't.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

P.S. I'm not sure what to make of how Fate-orientated Hoopla has been.