Mafia 123 - Outdoorsmen Mafia 2 GAME OVER

[DemonHybrid]

I'll work on a reply to nhammen in a few hours.

Also, Parama, we do NOT need to come to a lynch right now. That's absurd. I agree that we need more vote information, but it IS only page 6.

[Empking]

Unvote

Vote: DH

Also: I wasn't actually making as point about EPM, I just found it very amusing but wanted to make sure nobody missed it.)

[DemonHybrid]

Do you have any reasoning for that, Empking?

[Empking]

Do you have any reasoning for that, Empking?

Your defence of Nacho.

[Calcifer]

Since it's shorter, I'll do Evil's town meta first, Mostly Mountainous. (Hey, I have a setup with a similar name!)

For reference, this is just data. To analyze it, I'll actually need to put it all together: scum, town, current play, compare them, get a general feel for Evil...it's probably going to look a lot like Information instead of Analysis. It's going to contain a lot of information, sure, but once I have it in front of my eyes as an actual post (instead of just as text), then I'll be able to analyze it.

Spoiler: Town Game, Evil

Side-note: Evil is fond of short posts, at least as town. I'll see if this is true of him when he's scum as well.

Evil's RVS vote is on Antihero, presumably due to Evil's scum game before. This tells me Evil held an RVS grudge as town.

Is confused by Fate.

posts a slightly different take on the same conclusion. It's evidence that town-Evil is at least

attempting

to give a new perspective, even if he did not do so very well.

(Presumably) still confused, Evil asks for clarification.

When a player he had suggested interest in doesn't unvote despite the reasons given, Evil sees it as scummy, so he votes. Following through on a previous suspicion.

I don't get why there was confusion in the game over Evil's post here; he's implying with his words that he's agreeing with Seraphim and that Seraphim is town, even though he does not state it.

Posts a pretty unhelpful comment; I

think

this is implying he's not agreeing with Parama, and believes Antihero is town; it

might

be--therefore--implying agreement with Fate as well, though as his vote remains on Llar, I don't think so, though he might be thinking about it.

Continues this with pointing out Parama's OMGUS, which is contributing, if Evil considers that case of OMGUS scummy. (There's a difference between town-OMGUS and scum-OMGUS, after all.)

Doesn't understand the use of shameless wagoning here, though it was supposed to be obvious that they were referring to shamelessly wagoning Parama, not Fate or someone else. From this, I gather that Evil genuinely does get confused rather easily.

When clarified, still doesn't like it--an understandable town stance; wagoning without true reasoning is normally considered bad. (Fate games--from what I understand--are...special, that way. )

He does not see evidence of him being scum--which I agree with; his posts show indication of scum hunting in them, even if it's not very strong, and sticking by his opinions/beliefs, even if they're incorrect. Unless he does that convincingly as scum as well, I'll be looking for evidence of that in this game.

When questioned, he elaborates on his stance. (I don't seem to recall this that much from this game. I seem to remember him doing more defending, rather than elaborating. There's a difference. Might be the difference between town-Evil [elaborating on his stance], and scum-Evil [defending his stance].)

When asked about Guderian, he gives this as a response. It shows a good insight into a player, even with a limited amount of information available.

Calls chess ridiculous. This implies he thinks chess is town, but wrong.

Not sure about anything in this; it probably means he doesn't have a Fate read.

Gives useful insight--he doesn't necessarily agree with Fate's case, but the fact that Parama's attitude showed disregard for it meant he was suspicious to Evil. Or, something like that, anyway.

Correctly points out how he has clarified the case against him, and how he thinks the suspicion against him is like the garbage a lot of other people were posting. Says--essentially--that chess is posting fluff.

Again, in this post, I see clarification and elaboration on his stance, not defending and excuse-making.

Forms a strong opinion immediately, with three players called obvtown, and votes for a legitimate reason which (to my knowledge) hadn't been brought up. (I am skimming, though, the wall posts. Evil's an easy read. )

Evil takes the stance that the people calling Guderian obvtown are not correct, however, he still thinks Guderian is town, when compared to Llamar.

Makes a long post, for the first time. (On day three.) Says he'll stop ignoring players, and has Zach correctly labeled as scum.

Again, clarifies his bad wording.

Hints at trying to get a read on vezok unsuccessfully.

It's for this very reason that I'll need a better Evil read.

EvilPacMan:

I need a game where you were scum from the beginning, for comparison. (I'll still read Flameaxe's game, though. Well, at least, where you come in.)

Spoiler: The Read, Continued

He forms his own opinion on MPR, concluding MPR is town being mislynched.

Gives a nice rebuttal of Fate, in my opinion. (And from what I understand, that takes guts.)

Evil actually had the correct read (and points out his previous reads as being correct), giving his reasoning for thinking who the scum (and town) are quite nicely. And manages to figure out what Fate was.

Explains his actions, having formed the conclusion that the town has auto-won.

Clarifies that he formed common sense conclusions, proof that he really has a good insight into the game.

Alright, that's his town game finished.

Sorry for the length; I don't expect anyone to read it, really; I'll be bringing up relevant parts later. (It's, uh, just how I work. I've got an unusual brand of logic, so while this might look worthless to you, to me, it's a goldmine.)

I'm going to work on his scum game, though again, I'd also prefer in addition to it a scum game from the beginning.

-Mastin.

[Kitoari]

bvoigt replaces Azelf.
don_johnson replaces 4computer.

Still looking for another replacement...

[this space reserved for a VC]

[don_johnson]

hiyo! will read up soon.

[Calcifer]

I hope you forgive me for not reading all 104 pages of Evil's suggested game for me to read; that'd make even my eyes bleed a little.
(I've read the end, though I don't remember why. I think my name came up somewhere, and I was intrigued, tracked it down, and read the last part of the game.)

Spoiler: Evil's Scum Meta

evil comes in on this page.
He starts by bussing dana. (Yay, I remembered to keep the alignments of all players in mind, this time! )

Continues bussing, despite dana's cop claim.

Comes in strongly with a wall. He states his opinions there rather well. As I'm reading it, I'd be thinking he was town, because I worked the same way as town when I replaced into a late game.

I'm assuming RECKONER is Reck in the OP... so now he's DH (only person in this game I know). Hopefully DH is a little less lazy...

Relevant, given his stance on people he knows this game. Also shows that he's a somewhat gutsy player; he busses two of his buddies immediately, and only one town player; that's the inversion of the common "two town and one scum" move I see scum so often doing.

This seems relevant. He hates to be underestimated. (Though it's a good thing as scum--if they don't think you're that good, and you are, victory! )

Side-note: In this game--despite his bussing--he seems to mostly be commenting lazily so far, not giving unique insight. His first post screamed town, but the ones following it look like they give it away. More than that, even his first post had its flaws, though subtle. I think I'm beginning to get a feel for Evil, both as scum, town, and general. Still, a scum game from the beginning would be nice to solidify my read, and I am only on page 72.

Fails to deliver promised content. This is in contrast to his play as I see him as town, where he follows through with what he says.

Evil as scum basically policy-votes. I don't remember town-Evil doing that; he was against the idea.

Remember explanations versus excuses? This reads as the latter.

Side-note 2: More lack of real reasons behind his vote. Additionally, when he asks questions, they do not give off the same legitimately confused vibe; I got the impression he was instead, well, faking them.

The wall here seems to say a lot, but looking at it, I'm not seeing the same insight town-Evil had. I'm seeing statements, but not on the same level. It's more "this is wrong/right", rather than, "my view on this is x, which is different than your view [y], because of z."--which is what town-Evil does.

Remember the other half of elaboration versus excuse? You know, clarifying versus defending? Guess which this is. Hint: it's not the former.

This might have relevance. If he likes being scum more, there might be a way to detect the difference in his posting style. I'll have to look for it, better.

His followup post shows how dangerous of a scum player he is; that was some incredible insight, for someone apparently so new at the time.

And I finally finished. Dang, I started at 9. It's 2:20, now. >_<
(These game reads take so long, but the reward is well worth the effort. Got town meta, got scum meta, now I need to look at the current game, and form my conclusion.)

-Mastin.

[Calcifer]

Many apologies, but considering I have to leave soon, I don't think I'll be able to finish my read on Evil. I know what his play will be like as both town/scum, and that means determining which he is this game will be quite easy, for me, but, well, it takes time to do that. LOTS of time. >_<
Will resume--with luck--tomorrow.

-Mastin.

[Nachomamma8]

V/LA for a couple of days due to sickness

Empking, it was a case of never seeing it in the first place.
I'll try to get a post up later.

[DemonHybrid]

Ugh...

I'm starting to understand the hatred of hydras.

Nacho/Mastin, can you guys keep posting under one account and not have schizophrenic reads? This game is becoming really tiring.

[bvoigt]

Hi, everyone! I've kind of been following this game, but I'll read the thread more carefully when I get a chance.

[Guderian]

DH wagon needs more coal to keep it chugging along!

[don_johnson]

catching up...

familiar with six names on the player list.

hydras are okay, but posting needs to be done under the same account. if not, i see no reason to lynch you. large games are good that way.

wow. very convincing rvs case on pacman.

not sure why dh is saying guderian.

guderian = overreaction.

i didn't know mastin was a "well-known" scumhunter. i had the impression they were a lurky VI. but i think i've only shared a game or two with them and it had to be a long time ago.

so guderian claims scum?

post 45. iam launches the either/or fallacy question. i don't like it one bit.

nacho is town.

iam 53 redeems.

aaaaaaaaaannnnnddd parama claims scum. got it.

55 and 56. please don't play the noob card simultaneously. not here. not now.

and tyler plays the noob card. *facepalm*

my lynch pool here sits at tyler/untrod/ender...

and parama.

Maybe one is larger, but less powered.

i don't like this. i know what its supposed to mean, but it reads like a scumslip.

70. no. you are avoiding the situation. making early lists helps root out scum, spur discussion, and leaves a veritable trail of votes and suspicions for townies to look back at and find scum at a later date.

add guderian.

76. nothing about nhammen says he's town. but you give him the "misguided" pass. i don't get it.

dh starts to look worse.

82 is silly. pouring salt on a wound is scummy.

nhammen. my kind of monkey. picking up on the same shit i'm seeing.

93. uberscummy. this is a large game. there is no reason to unvote here.

94: nhammen, marry me.

102: why defend nacho? also, asking empking to contribute more is like asking a donut to not be so tasty.

117: rosswilliam again being silly.

First of all, Werewolf just dug himself a nice little hole by proving he's not reading with the above post and will probably get my vote when I read through again.

then why "read through again"? in fact, why continue posting? why not just vote wolf and be done with it?

145 = no good.

tj is now bordering on being "the scum using every possible out of game issue to account for his lack of content" guy. that has to be what, 2 or 3 posts of nothing but excuses as to why he's not posting? i'd have to go back and check, but i'm sensing a pattern.

vote: rosswilliam

.

[chkflip]

Whilst I read these seven pages and get a feel for the players, is there anything that anyone wants to ask me? I enjoy conversation.

[iamausername]

Hey yo, I'm going to have no internet access for a couple of days. I'll be back Friday. Don't do anything I wouldn't do.

[Parama]

chkflip: Top 3 scumreads please.

[tylerjarvis]

and tyler plays the noob card. *facepalm*

I did not. I was asked what games I've played and to include one Scum and one Town side. None of my games have finished, so I can't reveal either. That's all I was saying. Calm down.

[Calcifer]

Nacho/Mastin, can you guys keep posting under one account and not have schizophrenic reads?

Do you mean posting under one account? 'Cause it looks like Nacho only posted outside of this account due to being V/LA; he probably made similar messages for all his games.

Also, I sig every time, to let you know it's me, as if my unique style didn't already make it clear enough. So you can tell when it's me.

DH wagon needs more coal to keep it chugging along!

Actually, I did some analysis. I determined we had three viable wagons for day one: Demon, Evil, and You. Of them, the Demon lynch gives me the least amount of information on other players, regardless of whether Demon flips town or scum. You and Evil provide more information. I haven't checked for sure, but I believe Evil gives a little more than you do.

So, no Demon lynch today. For the most information, it's either you or Evil. (I'll elaborate if asked to.)

i didn't know mastin was a "well-known" scumhunter. i had the impression they were a lurky VI.

You don't have to be a good scum-hunter to be well-known. I'm definitely well-known. Just instead of me being famous, you need the prefix "in" to be in front of it. I could ramble on the subject all day, but the short version is, I enjoyed the thrill of the hunt, way too much, to the point where games where I wasn't under suspicion seemed boring (hence, the lurking tendencies). When things got interesting (AKA, when I came under suspicion), I posted wall after wall; that was my definition of fun. Only later did I realize the consequences of my actions: in my quest for fun, I

ruined

games I was in, so I decided right then and there to stop being a VI and actually try to improve my play.

Don, in the future, please provide links and/or names, not just numbers. Not a chance I'm going to browse the pages just to figure out what you're talking about.

Also, stop being so harsh on the newer players. As they are new, treat 'em no differently than you would if you were an IC. This isn't a newbie game, sure, but they're still new, they'll need legitimate help, and saying stuff like "don't play the newbie card" won't help them actually scum hunt. There are ways to tell newbie-scum from newbie-town, and it looks like you put almost zero effort into it.

For instance, Ross gave a legitimate opinion on two players, and was the first to say BOTH were scum. Before, it was always "oh, this person's scum, but the other [is town/I'm not sure of]"; he added new content, new insight, by saying both were. Find me someone who did that before Ross, and I'll retract that point; otherwise, it remains to be a town tell.

Anyway, I need to finish my Evil read. I'm close to finding my answer on whether he's town or scum, hopefully. (Though--again--meta's not an all-powerful tool; it's a good way to get a feel for a player, and I think I have a feel for Evil-town and Evil-scum, so can determine which he is this game.)

-Mastin.

[Calcifer]

*To clarify:
Ross isn't a new player, obviously, but it's an example of a read that I feel Don was only looking half-heartedly at, not really thinking about it for more than a few seconds. His harsh treatment of newbies and his general reads feel like they are extremely lazy, putting no intention to look even remotely beyond the surface. When you look only at the literal meaning, you are not being a good player; EVERYone has to do a little reading between the lines. I do so more than most people do, but still, everyone needs at least some of that basic effort to understand the meaning.

And when you do that, Ross looks town, not scum. Most of the newbies look good, too, yet from what I saw, you didn't have a positive opinion on any of them.
That is not how any good player plays mafia.

[DemonHybrid]

No, what I mean by schizophrenic reads, is that you and Nacho need to get together and discuss things before you provide output. Both heads disagreeing drives me crazy and I will count that as contradictions.

[Calcifer]

Spoiler: Evil this game

Evil opens the game by voting everyone he knows. I'm still waiting on Evil to give me an example of him as scum from the beginning, because while I have an idea of how town-Evil acts, I still need scum-Evil.

This reeks of excuses. I don't see the elaboration and clarification I expect from town-Evil. I see the defensive tone from scum-Evil.

He walls early on. Walling from Evil as town seems to mainly focus on making cases against someone. Walling from Evil-Scum (:P) seems to be mainly focused on defense. It's divided into seven quoted areas, so I'll give my feeling for each.
1: Defense. The sarcasm clarifies nothing.
2: Some specific phrasing makes my gut go "defense", but the overall feeling looks like clarification and elaboration.
3: Reads as more of a...defensive accusation? It's like a weaker version of OMGUS. I don't think that's town-Evil.
4: Feels a bit condescending, but otherwise, clarification.
5: Sounds defensive.
6: Not valid, either way; it's a comment about Nacho, so nothing either way. Neutral by logic, though my blasted gut wants to say it's somehow scummy. (I hate using my gut. You can never explain your reads. >_<)
7: Seems a bit defensive, to me. I got the defensive tone from it, and while there might be a little elaboration, it read as a defense to me.

Overall, has elements I expect from town-Evil, but mostly seems like Evil-Scum.

I'm not sure about this post against early-lynching, but I believe something similar came up in his town game; I'll need to double-check to make sure his stance adds up.

Anyway, my read is finished. To sum it up...

-Evil reads to me to have been more defensive (rather than elaborating and clarifying), which seems to be a scum tell for him.
-Did an early wall, focused mainly on defense, instead of offense.

That's about it, for now. Have to leave; be back (with luck) tomorrow.

~-Mastin.

[Calcifer]

No, what I mean by schizophrenic reads, is that you and Nacho need to get together and discuss things before you provide output. Both heads disagreeing drives me crazy and I will count that as contradictions.

We agree on more than we disagree; that is good enough for me.

-Mastin.

[DemonHybrid]

No, what I mean by schizophrenic reads, is that you and Nacho need to get together and discuss things before you provide output. Both heads disagreeing drives me crazy and I will count that as contradictions.

We agree on more than we disagree; that is good enough for me.

-Mastin.

Agree on everything. Everything else will be marked down as a contradiction.

[kikuchiyo]

Mastin: please tell me which of rosswilliam's 3 posts tell you he's town. Also, asking players not to play the noob card is not "being hard" on them imo. If you have questions just ask. I posted as I read. Post numbers should be sufficient for such a post.