Mafia 123 - Outdoorsmen Mafia 2 GAME OVER

[evilpacman18]

Good morning ladies and gentlemen. I'm on my iPod so a short post before I get up and ready for the day.
First of all, Werewolf just dug himself a nice little hole by proving he's not reading with the above post and will probably get my vote when I read through again.

Calcifer, never seen you before but I'm extremely impressed so far. Would you care to give me some more info on your read on me? I seem to have been mostly left out of your big post and the other post you made directed at me was mostly reiterations of stuff that DH and (IIRC) Nacho said about my reply to his question. Since we both seem to be fans of meta reads, I'm especially hoping for some comparisons of my meta so far in this game to my scum meta (best example of that would be BBM's 118) and my town meta (probably Mostly Mountainous is the best one).

The case on Nacho about not knowing there was two scum factions. I'll agree with Calcifer on that, a lot of people don't read Town PMs past the role. I was guilty of it myself this game, fortunately someone brought it up before I said anything ignorant about it. Setup discussions seem to be a bit unpopular but just throwing it out there. I don't see 10-3-3 being possible at all.

Be back later.

[Empking]

First of all, Werewolf just dug himself a nice little hole by proving he's not reading with the above post and will probably get my vote when I read through again.

Calcifer, never seen you before but I'm extremely impressed so far.

ROFL

I'm considerring moving my vote off Calc but I'd like an answer to my question first.

[DemonHybrid]

Oops, EPM hasn't read a thing.

[iamausername]

Why did you vote Untrod Tripod, iama? You didn't even mention his name in your post.

If you decided to vote Untrod Tripod, what reason would you use?

[Guderian]

Back from V/LA.

If you got any questions you specifically want me to answer, please ask.

Short Takes in Catching Up:

-Still think DH is scum, but with three days away my edge on this read has faded, so am less certain now.
-Reading Mastin/Nacho is going to be monstrous.
-Werewolf/EPM slipping into scummy lurking/weird questions zone.
-nhammen= Yay!
-I like empkings questioning.

[Kitoari]

Votecount #2 - The Similar but not quite identical votecount

DemonHybrid - UntrodTripod, Guderian (2)
evilpacman8 - Nachomamma8, Demonhybrid, iamausername, Parama (4)
ender241 - nhammen (1)
Calcifer - empking (1)
UntrodTripod - tylerjarvis, iamausername (2)

With 16 alive, it takes 9 to secure a lynch.

Still seeking replacements..

[nhammen]

@mod, I voted for nacho before that votecount.

However, I am now unvoting (and working on a post to explain why).

UNVOTE:

[nhammen]

I could vote Guderian, but I think that if that happens and he flips scum, this doesn't tell us a thing about EPM. I think that if EPM, who is scummy enough in my opinion, flips scum, this strengthens the case on Guderian. If he flips town, that means that I might have been off about something and am potentially avoiding lynching a townie.

And if we lynch Guderian, and he flips Town, then according to your logic, that shows that EPM is Town. Not that your logic is correct, but I'd say this is better. Plus, you have said that if EPM is scum, then Guderian is Town, but there is no information if EPM is Town, so by your logic, Guderian is more likely to be scum than EPM.

So, obviously people should only be concerned with the here and now, even if you have stated what your plans for the future are. You are saying that the townie thing to do was to ignore what you said???

First, how is it bad that I was planning to lynch two scum in a row, ONLY IF the first person flipped scum? If EPM were to flip town, I would re-read to either prevent a townie death or to be absolutely sure that the case against Guderian holds enough water to still follow it. I'm not perfect, still far from an "amazing" mafia player.

Except, heres the thing: what if you are wrong? I see that as a valid reason to get a bit concerned, but you say that since it would happen tomorrow, it doesn't matter, which is complete nonsense. It does still matter. You have said that is what your plan is multiple times. So why should he ignore it now, if you plan to go through with it later? I do not understand that comment of yours, that he has no reason to freak out because it wouldn't happen today. Complete nonsense.

Take a look at everyone's first "serious" post. UT says "I basically have no clue what is going on, but I'm comfortable with my DH vote" which is still a little bit. ender has commented on me, if only slightly. Tyler's first serious post contained nothing but setup speculation, and no names except for UT, who....you guessed it, joked around about setup speculation. It's not an arbitrary pick.

And what about ender? He posted even less than tyler. At least tyler had some game-related content; ender just said he doesnt know why people are behaving the way they are. Although, he is being replaced, so I guess he was just completely lost.

Guderian states idea #1. (me on one team, ??? as the other scum)
Parama states idea #2 (me on one team, Guderian on the other)
Guderian parrots idea #2 (Parama's onto something, maybe DH is on one team and someone he suspects is on the other, namely EPM), you know, the part that you said I was correct about.

Except that Guderian's idea #1 as you call it, did show the possibility of EPM on the other team, if you read what he was responding to. Do you just skip over quotes when reading stuff?

Your earlier quote heavily implied that you felt that it was something to vote him over. But I guess that whole thing was just a misunderstanding on everyones part?

See, that's what happens when you run on "implications" when not in RVS. Yes, misunderstandings.

I never thought, stated nor planned that I would vote Guderian today.

Ummm... that's not what I am saying you implied. I am saying that you implied you wanted to vote Guderian TOMORROW. Which you pretty clearly did.

I like the idea of Ross being town, due to his post here--he doesn't like Evil or Demon, despite them going against each other, something I also didn't like. That kind of thinking makes me believe he's solidly town.

Except, almost everyone had those two players as suspects at the time. Very definitely sheeping. In fact, I might make Ross my next vote.

-4computer...who is this, again? (

*cough, cough*

)

Wait, who? I actually had to go back and look at the playerlist. This player hasn't posted at all.

@mod, could we have a prod on 4comp?

Vote: Nacho

- He wasn't originally aware of there being two scum factions.

I wasn't. Point being?

Cool response. I previously stated I had a problem with the logic behind Empking's accusation. That problem is that if the game was breakable in this way, I would think it would not be considered normal. Therefore, I am thinking that it is more likely that all PMs included the multiple scumteam comment. I wanted to see your response first though, just in case.

WEREWOLF!

Werewolf is scum for being so damn under the radar, as demonstrated by me forgetting who he was.

That has nothing to do with me, you can blame yourself for your bad memory.

He's also not reading the game AT ALL

Are you blaming me because I haven't had much time to contribute to the game?

, but still trying to act like he's contributing.

Perhaps the fact that I have posted 3, now 4 times, could be why you suspect me as scum. Therefore, I will try to post more often.

I agree with Calcifer that Werewolf's behavior so far does look slightly scummy. Also, this post of werewolf's was followed by... nothing. So essentially he said that he was perfectly willing to stop doing what he was being suspected for but never actually stopped. Or rather started, lol!

[Guderian]

nhammen, would you mind giving the three most important ideas or convictions you hold in this game in three short bullet points. Your wall of texting is not making it clear exactly where you stand.

[nhammen]

Ummm... OK

1) There are no very clear scum suspects as of yet, but the connections that are being created now are going to be quite useful later in the game. I might decide to hunt by POE, but there are too many lurkers and less active players to be able to really effectively do this yet.
2) DemonHybrid has some pretty large logical leaps, but bad play =/= scum play, so this isn't enough of a reason to suspect him, but I would like his play to improve.
3) I find it highly likely that at least half of the scum are contained in the lurking/less active players, since I have been getting some strong town tells from most of the players that have posted useful content.

[nhammen]

The lurking/less active players are:
4comp
Azelf
chkflip
ender
werewolf
Ross
UntrodTripod
tyler

@mod: requesting a prod on Azelf and chkflip; they also havent posted.

How many replacements does this game need? Four!? That's one quarter of the playerlist!

Half of the players haven't shown near enough activity. I think that the whole half of the scum are among the less actives is true by default at this point.

[Guderian]

That is a lot of people with low/non existent activity. >.>.

[Parama]

I'm just waiting for a EPM lynch atm in case anyone's wondering. The time for scumhunting's over, it's now time to lynch.

To everyone who isn't voting: Vote in your next post or there will be dire consequences.

That means:
werewolf555
Azelf
chkflip
evilpacman18
4computer
RossWilliam
ender241

ALSO.

Three things for MOD:

1. You have IAAUN voting two players at once
2. Nacho was replaced by Calcifer (hydra), and neither the first post nor the vote count reflect this
3. Rule of threes

[evilpacman18]

Ew, pushing a lynch at page 6 on a large normal? No way. I'm waiting for Calc's next post before I go on.

[iamausername]

I'm normally totally against people trying to stall lynches because it's "too soon" for some dumb reason, but when 25% of the players have literally not posted at all, they probably have a point.

[werewolf555]

personally, I think that when players haven't posted, we should not vote for a lynch. Any one of them could be lurker-scum, and it would be unwise to kill somebody off yet.

[chkflip]

I hope I haven't been replaced, I'd lost my internet for a minute there. I can assure you it will not happen again -- if I'm still around, that is.

[iamausername]

werewolf, do you plan to ever make a post that isn't just repeating the last post in the thread?

[Untrod Tripod]

hey guys. I'm here. sorry I haven't been participating, RL got in the way for a bit there. will catch up tonight and post tomorrow.

[Guderian]

Lynch List:

DH

Vig List:

werewolf555
Azelf
chkflip
evilpacman18
4computer
RossWilliam
ender241

[RossWilliam]

VOTE: DemonHybrid

That is all.

[tylerjarvis]

Sorry guys, I've been out of it the past few days. My internet has been down since Friday, and I was out of town at a conference before that. I'm here now, but haven't got time to post anything substantial right now (I'm at work). It's coming later. Hopefully this evening.

[Calcifer]

Town would have been.

And my half disagrees. Not carefully reading is a null (or even minor [like, 51-52% so too-small-to-notice] town) tell. Made this clear in my entry post.

Speaking of which...

To start,

werewolf555

, Azelf, tylerjarvisl,

4computer

,

RossWilliam

, and

ender241

, I'd like to know previous games by you people. The rest of the list is familiar to me, but your names are not. Preferably your most recent games as town and scum (if you have any).

Bolded-->Have posted since then but not fulfilled my request. You're all Goons or Mafia Scum, meaning, you have to have at least one, possibly two, games under your belt. Even if you have none over, you could at least have the courtesy of telling me.
Underlined might (and probably should) be replaced. If they are, the request will extend to their replacement, unless I happen to know you.
Strike is being replaced. Same as above.

What do you think of DH's defence of you?

Quite frankly? I hated Demon's defense of Nacho, even as a spectator. Now playing in the same slot as Nacho is, I hate it even more.

Werewolf's post here reeks of scum. It's the subtle newbie tell. Newbie town will still try to scum hunt, just suck really badly at it. Newbie scum will post stuff like that, trying to appease those actually doing the scum hunting. Looking at him in isolation, I don't see any effort at all to scum hunt. Not a word of suspicion, on a single player. Thanks for bringing it into attention, Nacho; I definitely think werewolf's scum, now.

Calcifer, never seen you before but I'm extremely impressed so far.

That's 'cause this account is a Hydra, currently in this game being me, Mastin, and Nachomamma8. We have pretty distinct styles, so it shouldn't be that hard to tell us apart.

Would you care to give me some more info on your read on me? I seem to have been mostly left out of your big post and the other post you made directed at me was mostly reiterations of stuff that DH and (IIRC) Nacho said about my reply to his question.

As I prefer to follow my own advice, I'll try to keep this brief:

Nacho I felt was right in his suspicion of you, so you can look to his reasons. As for my own besides his,

Between Demon, Evil, Guderian, and Parama... [added: and--I suppose--UT belongs here as well]
...There are at least two scum.

That. Why? Bussing, defensive patterns, etc. Off the charts in pages 2-3.

Since we both seem to be fans of meta reads, I'm especially hoping for some comparisons of my meta so far in this game to my scum meta (best example of that would be BBM's 118) and my town meta (probably Mostly Mountainous is the best one).

Honestly, I thought I remembered you well enough to not meta you, but as you asked, I suppose I will. It'll make a good demonstration of the difference between a personal investigation (which it'll be), and a case (which it's not). Obviously not in this post; that'd be way too long.

I'm considerring moving my vote off Calc but I'd like an answer to my question first.

You'll have to wait for Nacho's half to get a better answer than my own.

Contrary to the point Empking was making, I actually don't hold it against Evil that he missed the fact that I'm a Hydra. It's not hard to miss if you're skimming my posts, and while the pattern should've been made obvious by the two distinct styles Calcifer has been posting in, it's still something which you might not pay attention to in an initial quick readthrough, particularly considering the length of my posts. (Sorry.)

Except, almost everyone had those two players as suspects at the time.

Not

quite

, nham. True, almost every single player was thinking one of them was scum...
...But Ross--to my knowledge--is the first to express how he thought

both

are scum, as I did in my post. That makes me think he's town, because he had a new insight which wasn't there before, that they were bussing each other hard. He obviously didn't say all of that, but it's definitely implied in his posts.
To my knowledge, everyone before that was just thinking one of them was scum and the other one town. Therefore, I see no sheeping. I see active participation. And from that, I come to the logical conclusion, that Ross is town.

1) There are no very clear scum suspects as of yet, but the connections that are being created now are going to be quite useful later in the game. I might decide to hunt by POE, but there are too many lurkers and less active players to be able to really effectively do this yet.

This point, I strongly agree with. All the information's there; most of us just don't know how to use it, yet, to find all the scum. (Still, I'll be trying.)

The other points, not agreeing with so much. Obviously, bad play != scum play, but I see more than just bad play which points to Demon being scum.

And I'm alright with the idea of one--possibly two--scum being lurkers, but half of them? Well, if we have 2-2 scumteams, I'd expect the scum wouldn't try lurking (the smaller the team, the more important staying active is), and if we have 3-3 scumteams, then I don't think 1-2 players from EACH scumteam (or alternatively, an ENTIRE scum team) would be lurking; that's just too many. Therefore, half the scum can't be lurking. No, most of them are in the active players list; I'm quite sure of it.

---

Well, that's my catchup post. It's a bit long, unfortunately. Since I figure you'll want a summary...
Now...what's changed?

-Werewolf has gone from neutral-who-needs-looking-into from this half, into Scum.
-Other reads haven't changed.
*However, I need to meta Evil and compare his play.

~-Mastin.

[Calcifer]

EditBWOP: Add tyler to the bolded list.

All of the people in that list, I need the meta of. Meaning, your latest completed games. Preferably, one scum and one town if you have them as both alignments, but if not, I'll take whatever you've got. Two town, one town, one scum, whatever.

[tylerjarvis]

I'm in Newbie Game 1041 and Mafia 1101. Neither have finished yet, so that's all I can tell you about them. Those are my first games.