Cyclic Experimentation Set x01 - [Game Over]

[StrangerCoug]

Should I bother trying to decipher what Saint is thinking anymore?

[Saint]

You could just, y'know, ask me

[Saint]

The clarification I believe that needs to be resolves can be resolved if you change my second comma to a period in my aforementioned statement not right above this one

[Saint]

Also, I haven't talked to Vi in about 2-3 days, so sorry for my posting style slipping a little.
She was for the Helghast vig, but I was opposed to it.
I wanted a vig on someone I felt Diddin had ties with, that would help to judge his alignment.

[quadz08]

tmh: self-preservation is inherently scummy, unless he has a very powerful role. A townie (assuming it's not lylo or something) should understand that the town comes before himself, whereas for scum, that's not the case.

Does this mean the expanded Top X list of yours would have included these players that you questioned in 240?

No, not necessarily. I question people as I see things that need to be questioned; many times, it's the answers to the questions that determine scumminess. Questioning someone does not mean I think they're scummy, at least in my book.

How many times did we agree I was shooting people with a lot of votes (hint: not EC)? How many times did I say I didn't want someone else to claim and potentially out a stronger power role? It's like I'm talking to someone and whenever I make a point they stick their fingers in their ear and go LALALALALALA YOU'RE WRONG YOU'RE WRONG

How many time? Never. We never agreed that you were shooting people with alot of votes. You actually never mentioned votes when limiting who you wanted shot. Ever. The first time you mentioned that you weren't going to shoot anyone outside Helghast or WC (ISO 20) they were on 3 and 2 votes respectively, EC was on... also 2. When you said it again (ISO 29) the only change in that situation was that Helghast had gotten 1 more vote.

Lol. diddinscum. lynch/vig tomorrow. 'nuff said.

[themanhimself]

tmh: self-preservation is inherently scummy, unless he has a very powerful role. A townie (assuming it's not lylo or something) should understand that the town comes before himself, whereas for scum, that's not the case.

Again I disagree, because if a townie is about to be mislynched, that wastes a town lynch and lowers the town's odds by one out of how ever many townies there are in that game. The combination significantly reduces the town's chances of winning so self-preservation should be a townie instinct as well as a scum one. Regardless, defending a townie should be viewed as pro-town, so if he's not seeing it that way, then I don't think he's town. The argument ultimately doesn't really come down to self-preservation so that's a debate for the mafia theory forums.

[quadz08]

No, finding someone else scummy and posting a case on them should be your first instinct. Then you're pushing the town to lynch someone scummy, not just to not lynch you. Yes, defending a townie is generally pro-town, but just because someone is is defending me doesn't mean I give them town points. They have to have good reasoning and logic, and not have scum motivation to defend me. The act of defending a townie is more complex than you seem to think.

[LimMePls]

The end of my busyness and inactivity is at an end!

Skimming back over posts previously, I still find early/mid D1 actions of WC to be a bit scummy, but as pointed out by many of you (and I honestly was too busy to notice on my own) diddin's narrowing it down to just those two, (and Helghast flipping town) make me cautious of outright lynching WC because I am more suspicious of diddin than him, and if diddin were scum, then he'd likely have narrowed it down to townies...unless of course (WIFOM!) he knew we'd come to this conclusion and actually chose his scum buddy WC because he hoped he might be able to swayit onto Helg, and if he had to vig WC he'd look grand for having hit a a scum, and ARGH. I hate WIFOM. Gives me headache.

Anyways, enough babbling, I am going to hold off on my vote of WC for now, and while part of me would like to see diddin hanged today, I concede that town or scum, he'd be useful to us for another dayvig (hopefully...)

and after that,

I hate to be the guy that says this, but we've had

three

townie deaths today..... maybe a no lynch wouldn't be such a bad idea?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: themanhimself
No Lynch is only good when a game is at MyLo. And I would be

REEAALLYY

surprised if a large game where at MyLo already with three town deaths.

Only scum would suggest No Lynch in non-MyLo-situations.

Speaking of WIFOM - ffs.

vote: powerrox

I can't believe there are not more votes on this wagon. WTF folks.

[Nero Cain]

Says the guy who isn't on his wagon...

+2 scum points

[I Am Innocent]

The reason I was emphasizing the uselessness of connections without scumflips is because we'll have tons of connection info off cycles,

but we have a treestump ability that makes it harder for us to get that first scumflip

. MoI wants to leave the treestump ability around so we can get even more connection info. To me, that's like going out to buy more sugar when you have 3 bags of sugar for your lemonade and no lemons. (the sugar being the connection info we'll get anyway, the lemons being that first scumflip that gets easier once the treestump ability is removed from the game).
(For the sake of wordcount, I'll leave you to read my old posts if you want an explanation of how the treestump makes it hard to lynch scum)

What does the treestump ability have to do with nailing a scum?

I still have 9 pages to read, and I assume you can find your old post faster than me...

@I AM If CKDs slip jumped @ you more then why are you not voting him? EC is scummier?

At the time yes, but as I am catching up on my reading and gathering my notes, I think I found some scummier players. My vote will likely switch once I am officially caught up.

assuming that implosion is telling the truth he's unkillable therefore Diddin's kill would not work.

Not so. I believe that implosion has declared unlynchable, not unkillable.

Yeah yeah yeah. So I missed it. He clarified it. Why are you making it out into a big deal? And why are you not worried about CHK and I AM who supposedly missed it as well?

I missed that? I'm curious to see where. I'll admit I played along into whoever said that the Tree Stump ability had to declare in thread, but I never was under the impression he was unkillable, only unlynchable and voteless like he said.

As for EC, the fact that he hasn't voted for anyone but Parama all game is a little off-putting. He's been updating his justification for that vote and while I feel that his justifications are largely wrong I get it at least shows that he's trying. Thing is, it could be trying to find scum, or it could be trying to look like he's scumhunting. I wouldn't oppose his vigging and would probably support his lynch. I realise that this probably amounts to fence sitting on EC, but there are others I'm more interested in and would rather commit myself to those than take a cast iron stance on EC.

Caught my eye a bit...

Vote Powerrox93

Other scum reads at the moment: Nero Cain. diddin. Less so, themanhimself and EC.

Esp since this is about where I would expect a scum to put his scum teammate on. In the Less so pile.

I also think that Diddin should examined a bit closer because essentially he limited his Vig targets to only myself and Helghast, he refused to kill EC. It seems to be a safe-scum play to limit the vig targets as he did. While he made it appear that we had a choice, it was win-win for Diddin IF he is scum.

QFT

Lastly, powerrox is just incredibly anti-town. He's very clearly our resident VI, and so I will UNVOTE: and...

VOTE: powerrox.

I am in favor of removing VI's and anti-town players early, because I'd rather get rid of them while we still can (as in, when we're not in lylo or a similar situation.)

To me, VI is really misguided town, which is setting off alarm bells telling me you'd like to take care of easy mislynches first.

QFT

I hate to be the guy that says this, but we've had

three

townie deaths today..... maybe a no lynch wouldn't be such a bad idea?

scummy

Saturday I will be fully here though! <3

As I am catching up here on Saturday night, I will make sure I am on the lookout.

Do you have a post-restriction for retarded jpegs making retarded points or is that just your normal vernacular?

hey asshat...I am caught up, I need to reread given the new information...why arent you doing that???!?!? of course, you probably missed that too didnt you...you know what I am tired of...you saying shit that isnt true, then backtracking when you are called out for it...at first I thought is a mistake...but you have done it 2-3 times now

unvote, vote Nero Cain.

you have done absolutely NOTHING protown in the game...you bitch that I havent put forth any content, but you have done JACK SHIT....not to mention, I bet you havent checked my other current games to see if (i dont know) actually didnt have time to post earlier this week...

you are not scum hunting only coasting by

^^^^^way to defensive for a townie.

QFT

My mind has actually been changed on Powerrox.

That was quick. Just a few votes can do that to a man I guess...

What page are you on now and what are your current scum reads?

Whatever page it was that you posted this. Will have scum reads in a minute. My notes have 6 leading candidates.

I still don't understand this phrase, "easy target", that I've heard all across mafiascum. What does it mean?

Easy Targets to me are either 1) the players who cannot express themselves effectively. Saint, who I am in my 2nd game with him now, is a good example of that. 2) People that aren't around to defend themselves.

Aren't scum easier to attack than other players? So then wouldn't being an easy target be correlated with being scummy? So why would it ever be used as an argument, ever?

How are scum, unless they out themselves as scum, easier to attack than other players (sorry to answer your question with a question, but I really have no idea how you came up with that one)? Until I understand that, I can't answer the other two questions here.

PS - Note to self, not thrilled with Darla's catch up post and votes to date.

[I Am Innocent]

Top 6 Scum Suspects, in no particular order: Pops, Chkflip, CKD, EC/nahmmen, TMH, q21.

[I Am Innocent]

unvote
Vote: themanhimself

Only suspect of mine with more than 1 vote currently.

[popsofctown]

The reason I was emphasizing the uselessness of connections without scumflips is because we'll have tons of connection info off cycles,

but we have a treestump ability that makes it harder for us to get that first scumflip

. MoI wants to leave the treestump ability around so we can get even more connection info. To me, that's like going out to buy more sugar when you have 3 bags of sugar for your lemonade and no lemons. (the sugar being the connection info we'll get anyway, the lemons being that first scumflip that gets easier once the treestump ability is removed from the game).
(For the sake of wordcount, I'll leave you to read my old posts if you want an explanation of how the treestump makes it hard to lynch scum)

What does the treestump ability have to do with nailing a scum?

I still have 9 pages to read, and I assume you can find your old post faster than me...

Ctrl F and posts by user can get you far.

Anyhow, the treestump ability prevents scum from being lynched and prevents townies (who tend to vote for scum more than scum do) from voting). If we want to lynch a treestump player, we're put off a day. Or wagons on scum might not gain the steam they deserve because a townie doesn't have a vote.

The ability basically damages day game, which is all VTs have.

@ attacks
They should have valid scumtells that are reasons to attack them. Because they're scum.

I can see why attacking someone who is V/LA would be bad. Not sure I fully understand the express yourself stuff..

[popsofctown]

More powerrox votes please.

His iso is terrible.

[diddin]

@IAI: How about you post your own content instead of just QFTing posts you agree with?

I also already said I didn't want to force another claim. I already had two popular candidates for vigging who claimed (I believe WC and Helghast had both claimed at the time. Feel free to correct me) no power. I did not want to risk outing a powerful town PR. I don't know how many times I've explained it.

[Bunnylover]

Ok what the hell is with everyone early in the game (outside of RVS) voting with "I'm getting scummy vibes."
@Lateralus22: I am reading slowly due to all the wall of texts everyone seems to love posting <_<. I should be down to page 15 to 20 by the end of the day. Right now I am on page 10, believe EC is town. I am actually agreeing with a lot of what EC is saying about Parama. I also don't like the fact that people are bringing up meta play. Meta play doesn't constitute as crap. If someone gets scum, they will just look at their town play and replay it, meaning trying to use a meta tell to tell if this person is town or scum is to me idiotic.
Not exactly liking Diddin whole how dare you unvote without revoting. Although it does makes sense, I don't like it and don't find it enough reason to vote for another player.
I find Pops as town.
Parama I find scummy. As well as the Saint.
My reads may change as I continue to read, but at least you can get some kind of read on my thinking process and where I would be standing. Also I wouldn't have support a WC vig from Diddin.

[nhammen]

OK, Sorry about delaying my reread; other stuff came up just after I replaced in. Will not be a problem though.

The first few pages of posts are all discussion about the game mechanics, so I have a question (that might have already been answered) before I begin:

@mod: if someone dies with an ability, is that ability revealed upon their death? If you have already answered, then ignore this.

The first thing I saw is that three town aligned players are dead, and it might be useful to know if they died holding abilities. In fact, from my quick skim of the first 6 pages, I saw that muh died because of an ability that he was given, so now I am assuming that abilities are not revealed. I hope we haven't lost anything useful. I guess I will have to finish this reread to find out.

We can suggest that someone in the town is a 'good target' and hope a vig or somesuch kills him. You cycle the town-destroying ability to that same antitown 'good target'. Unless an antitown faction has control of a protection ability for tonight, that guy has a pretty good chance of dying the same night you kill him, so your bad-for-town ability goes away night 1 instead of bouncing from player to player and causing us harm.

Did you see the mod's post? Cycling happens

after

kills. Hmmm...

@mod, what happens if an ability is cycled to a player that has already been killed? The person with the ability wasn't killed, so there may be some ambiguity regarding special mechanics 3 and 4.

Even with killing on the next night, or if passing to a dead player destroys the ability, I highly doubt the game was designed such that any anti-town ability could be destroyed as easily as that; if they could, why were they included in the game. But, this is some serious mod WIFOM. And, I can't see a real flaw with this plan if we replace "kill the same night" with "lynch the next day" or "kill the next night", other than the fact that we are deciding a lynch or kill a day ahead of time, before the information from day 1 is revealed, which admittedly is a pretty big flaw. But I highly doubt that there are many anti-town abilities. Because they can all be easily destroyed like this, so the mod shouldn't have included them.

Another thing I was thinking is that we might be able to just massclaim on day two. Mafia won't be able to kill anyone with a useful power role, and it'll give us some insight into what's in play. Oh, and any investigative roles can claim results without risk of their abilities being lost. I think it would also help the town more than the mafia because the mafia can share what roles they've gotten between each other, so they'll already have info about what's in play.

I like this plan, but there is a downside. When everyone with an ability claims, the mafia can look at each player that has claimed an ability to find out who they would likely pass the ability to. It could allow the mafia to find power-roles more easily. There are a few obvious counter-measures to this, so that's not that big of a problem, but it could matter.

Oh, right, it is dangerous to give anti town roles to the person we find scummiest. Maybe we do this for the person we find towniest?

You are seriously suggesting to kill off the towniest player? Or am I misreading this? Or am I reopening two week old discussions that have already been resolved?

I have a treestump ability. For today, I'm voteless and can't be lynched. I'm worried that if this survives to lylo, it could screw everything up if a townie has it. Or if a mafia member has it for that matter. However, mafia having it for one day wouldn't really affect anything.

The more I think about it though, the less merit I think the plan has. Just because we don't know what roles are in play, so there are a lot of possibilities for error, and there are likely some negative roles that mafia could use if eliminated like this. Plus, I'd guess that most abilities in play are positive for the town. Those with such abilities obviously shouldn't claim them until tomorrow - but there are probably things like investigating/protection/vigging that are in play. I think the best thing to do might be to just pay attention to who has abilities like this, and make sure that at some point the abilities get eliminated. It might be a bit trickier with mine since it can't be gotten rid of through lynching.

Discuss.

You had made it sound like your ability was really awful. In LYLO it could cause problems, but there is a lot of time to take care of that.

I do have one question that has probably already been answered, if you are "lynched" does it end the day, or not?

You later say that it ends the day. Also, I think that tomorrow you should tell everyone who you give that ability to. Does everyone agree?

I'm here, guys. I haven't consulted with Vi, yet, so I'll keep this brief.

Too sane for the Furc I know.

vote Saint

Wait. You're saying Saint is a furc/Vi hydra? This should be... interesting.

Also, at lylo, the most worrying thing isn't a possible unlynchable mafia (because you could pass it to a townie) - it's the fact that a townie could be voteless. So lets consider a hypothetical 5-way lylo, with 2 mafia in the same faction and 3 townies. If a mafia member has the treestump, then the town has to lynch the other mafia or they lose. If a townie has the treestump then (assuming there are no vig/doc/etc abilities left) the town will only control 2/4 votes and will lose. At 3-way lylo, it wouldn't even matter who had it. If it's a townie, the mafia's vote makes it impossible to gain a majority. If it's the mafia, then well the mafia is unlynchable.

Which means that that situation is not LYLO, the game i already over. With a treestump in play, LYLO happens at even numbers.

HOLY COW! I just checked the votecount, and implosion still counts towards the vote total even though he can't vote! That is the WORST treestump ability I have ever seen! LYLO still happens at even numbers though.

What are the risks of trying to kill implosion's ability? Is the worst case scenario really a mafia doc saving the guy? A vigilante would miss getting a kill that night, but he wasn't guaranteed to shoot correctly anyhow. While this treestump ability makes us autolose LyLo, so it is the equivalent of an entire player, guaranteed.

I'm thinking maybe we ought to remove implosion's ability from the game. If you're town, please argue for or against that without appeals to fear, mkay?

I'm thinking that giving this ability to an obvtown VI (if there is one, and there usually is) may be a good idea, except that said VI will only possess this ability for 1 day, instead of permanently.

How the cycling abilities will be handled -

D2 all players who survived and passed on abilities N1 should claim that they passed an ability, only revealing what that ability was if it gave them a Pro-Town result (like a guilty on someone). They are not to claim who they passed it to.

D3 all players still alive who passed abilities N1 claim who they passed them to. Then said players confirm / deny that they received an ability Day 2 that they passed on N2. They also reveal any useful results.

Lather rinse repeat each Day cycle. And continue to lynch scum.

This is mutually exclusive with claiming role results, but not claiming who was sent to. So the question is, which is more valuable: knowing all role results, or knowing who cannot be scum-partners?

While saddling a scummy player with an Anti-Town ability that is dangerous in the endgame and then killing them before it can be passed is a good strategy for late game it’s very bad early. For obvious reasons.

You are right! If we pass this ability for a while it will give confirmation about who cannot be scum together. Maybe best use is to tell player with said ability to give it to the player most likely to be their scumbuddy (assuming said player is scum), and if they refuse, well youve caught scum. Arg! implosion already though of this in #63

RedCoyote's #84 is the longest piece of fluff I've seen in a while.

[nhammen]

At the top of page 5, and I was expecting this reread to go faster. I haven't even caught up to where i skimmed to. It took me an hour to read 4 pages. Well, tomorrow night I will have a lot more time.

Anyways, at this point I agree with Magna's plan for anybody with an ability to say that you passed it on the morning after you pass it, and to say to whom you passed it on the next morning. Also, as I think I just stated, I think that the treestump should say to whom they passed it on the first morning, rather than the second. The treestump can be used as a sort-of investigation, as all abilities can. There is no point to worrying about destroying the treestump now, when this can be done at a later time, and may happen without even trying. Unless somebody has mentioned something important in the time after I have read.

Anyways, I will have 3 hours to read tomorrow, so hopefully will be to the top of 20 by tomorrow night, and then will be caught up on Monday.

[The Eruci]

@mod: if someone dies with an ability, is that ability revealed upon their death? If you have already answered, then ignore this.

This was answered in Post #352 but will repost for convenience:

All powers that are eliminated on deaths will be revealed as was done with muh316's death. An absence of mention of lost power, such as in AntB's case, signifies that they were not carrying any ability when they died.

There will NOT be any list created by

the moderator

stating which abilities have been effected by deaths, so it is important to check death scenes for this information.

@mod, what happens if an ability is cycled to a player that has already been killed? The person with the ability wasn't killed, so there may be some ambiguity regarding special mechanics 3 and 4.

This was answered in VoteCount 1x2 but I will restate for convenience:

If an ability is sent to a player who has died previous to receiving the ability passed to them, the ability enters what I call "the void." It may or may not make a reappearance in the game, but no further action is required from you after you submit your pass choice.

An example of situations:

Player A chooses to pass Ability X to Player B.
Player E kills Player B through some method.
Ability X enters "the void".

Using the same example, if Player B is in possession of Ability Y (a separate ability from the previous example) when he is killed, that ability will NOT cycle, rather it will be removed, as his death precludes his passing of the ability.

Note "the void" is different from removal from the game, as an ability being sent to "the void" will not be publicly announced.

[LimMePls]

Says the guy who isn't on his wagon...

+2 scum points

Unvote
Vote: DarlaBlueEyes

Diddin, shoot so we can get on to the lynching scumz.

+over 9000! scum points for lying.

[I Am Innocent]

I still have 9 pages to read, and I assume you can find your old post faster than me...

Ctrl F and posts by user can get you far.

Yeah I am aware, and if I didn't feel like reading through another 4 pages of iso after my 11 pages total of catchup the last day or so, I would have done so.

Anyhow, the treestump ability prevents scum from being lynched and prevents townies (who tend to vote for scum more than scum do) from voting). If we want to lynch a treestump player, we're put off a day. Or wagons on scum might not gain the steam they deserve because a townie doesn't have a vote.

The ability basically damages day game, which is all VTs have.

1) Prevents scum from being lynched - I say it pushes it off one day. I also say there are more than 1 scum likely. You can still find them. Weak argument
2) Prevents town from voting - Well if a town player has the tree stump, it also prevent said town player from being lynched, so theoretically the mafia that day have a better chance of being lynched ratio wise. And early in the game, I don't think one townie vote is going to stop a scum wagon that often. Weak Argument

The worst argument for the tree stump is how it pushes up LyLo one day. We can get rid of it now (or could have with the dayvig), but I am of the mindset to keep it now. I like the scum matching thing and the more of that we have, the more valuable it is than the possibility we may push up LyLo one day. (Multiple Confirmed Innocents > Add 1 day to LyLO imo).

@ attacks
They should have valid scumtells that are reasons to attack them. Because they're scum.

It's that easy huh. Can you list the players in this game that have valid scumtells and tell me what those scumtells are?

@IAI: How about you post your own content instead of just QFTing posts you agree with?

Reasons for my QFT
1) I was 11 pages behind and most of the topics of discussion where already discussed. Note I did add a few items, look at how q21 responded to EC, nobody mentioned that.
2) In a big game like this, the QFT let's me go back and ISO myself to make sure I am not forgetting something I earlier suspected. Never played in a game this big that I did alot of/any rereads.
3) I am taking a stance by saying where I stand on issues. Stances are good for town, bad for scum.

@IAI: How about you post your own content instead of just QFTing posts you agree with?

I also already said I didn't want to force another claim. I already had two popular candidates for vigging who claimed (I believe WC and Helghast had both claimed at the time. Feel free to correct me) no power. I did not want to risk outing a powerful town PR. I don't know how many times I've explained it.

You explained it, but like others have said, it seemed very opportunistic. Esp now that we know that one of those was town. The other feels town to me now, so it would be beneficial to scum to use that as an excuse to ensure an extra town death.

The first thing I saw is that three town aligned players are dead, and it might be useful to know if they died holding abilities. In fact, from my quick skim of the first 6 pages, I saw that muh died because of an ability that he was given, so now I am assuming that abilities are not revealed. I hope we haven't lost anything useful. I guess

Second player on my suspect list to ask this question. Noted.

[popsofctown]

I still have 9 pages to read, and I assume you can find your old post faster than me...

Ctrl F and posts by user can get you far.

Yeah I am aware, and if I didn't feel like reading through another 4 pages of iso after my 11 pages total of catchup the last day or so, I would have done so.

Searching for one or two relevant posts =/= reading four pages. A page of effort at the most.

Anyhow, the treestump ability prevents scum from being lynched and prevents townies (who tend to vote for scum more than scum do) from voting). If we want to lynch a treestump player, we're put off a day. Or wagons on scum might not gain the steam they deserve because a townie doesn't have a vote.

The ability basically damages day game, which is all VTs have.

1) Prevents scum from being lynched - I say it pushes it off one day. I also say there are more than 1 scum likely. You can still find them. Weak argument
2) Prevents town from voting - Well if a town player has the tree stump, it also prevent said town player from being lynched, so theoretically the mafia that day have a better chance of being lynched ratio wise. And early in the game, I don't think one townie vote is going to stop a scum wagon that often. Weak Argument

1.)If you delay the lynch a day, that scum is using night actions an additional night. I would file that with not good.
2.)A townie vote can matter. And it's unlikely the stumpholder will be in risk of lynch to begin with, because it's not really a good idea to cycle the thing to a scummy player.

These are minor things though. The big thing is being an entire townie behind in Lylo. Actually, it's possible to be two townies behind. It can lose 4-2 town to scum advantages. In a 4-2 setup with a townie holding the stump, it's lylo, and if the townies select a lynch target correctly the scum can vote no lynch instead and accept a 2/3 chance of victory. Math in the spoiler.

Spoiler: Math

Town
Town
Town
Town<Stump
Scum
Scum
-----
No lynch (only if they can't get townies to mislynch for the loss)
-----
Town
Town
Town
Town<Stump
Scum
Scum
-----
Night kill, 2/3s chance of
------
Town<Stump
Town
Town
Scum
Scum
------
No lynch
------
Town<Stump
Town
Town
Scum
Scum
------
Game sealing nightkill
------
Town
Town
Scum
Scum

If the stump is passed to scum, it goes from that original starting state to this on day 2.
Town
Town
Town
Scum<stump
Scum
-----
nonstump scum is lynched
-----
Town
Town
Town
Scum<stump
------
Night kill one, pass to another
------
Town
Town>stump
Scum
------
No lynch, endgame.
------

The worst argument for the tree stump is how it pushes up LyLo one day. We can get rid of it now (or could have with the dayvig), but I am of the mindset to keep it now. I like the scum matching thing and the more of that we have, the more valuable it is than the possibility we may push up LyLo one day. (Multiple Confirmed Innocents > Add 1 day to LyLO imo).

One cycling ability isn't going to consistently make multiple confirmed innocents. The day after the day after the cycle, we find out two people aren't on a scumteam. Not a whole group, just those two people. If one of those two has to be scum, and has to be dead. The other one has to be town, and has to be alive. It's very conditional. The same info may even overlap from all the other roles we have, for instance if two players cycled to eachother, or if a certain player always cycles to one guy he trusts, then it doesn't matter if he gets tree stump AND jester space marine, it just matters if he at least gets jester space marine so he can confirm that he's not scum with the guy he's cycling to.

One or maybe two confirmed innocents, and even that is just information. You don't win the game when you can tell the mod who the scum are, you win the game when town bodies are the only ones alive.

Confirmed innocents can make lynches a little more intelligent, but living townies keep you from losing the game. If you had to try to pick which of five facedown cards was the ace of spades, would you rather have one choice eliminated for you, or would you rather get a second guess even if you guessed wrong at first? That's the difference between extra days and extra info.

@ attacks
They should have valid scumtells that are reasons to attack them. Because they're scum.

It's that easy huh. Can you list the players in this game that have valid scumtells and tell me what those scumtells are?

I can't. What I can do is point out what I perceive as scumtells during the course of the entire game, and see how the perceived tells matchup against actual alignments and see if I beat random chances. I might not beat random chances this game, but if I don't beat random chances in most of my games, my scumhunting only hurts the town (or fails to help it) and there's no point in me participating in the day's conversation at all.

If I do beat random chances, it's because in that mix of arbitrary scumtells that were just targetting noise, there were valid scumtells that evidenced a player's alignment was mafia. And that's what I meant when I say scum should, almost by definition, be easier to attack.

You [diddin] explained it, but like others have said, it seemed very opportunistic. Esp now that we know that one of those was town. The other feels town to me now, so it would be beneficial to scum to use that as an excuse to ensure an extra town death.

One of his two narrowed targets flipped town. But for diddin's narrowing of the daykill down to even suggest a scum alignment requires that 1. Wrathchild be town, 2. EtherealCookie be scum (or whoever it was he refused to lynch pretty sure it was Ecookie). Even then, townDiddin might have narrowed his targets down because he didn't want to kill town power, as he said, and he didn't want to vote someone with few votes/vigvotes, as he said. Considering several of us threatened him with ropey death that's really expected behavior.
You need another flip to even talk about this point, and two for me to be concerned.

The first thing I saw is that three town aligned players are dead, and it might be useful to know if they died holding abilities. In fact, from my quick skim of the first 6 pages, I saw that muh died because of an ability that he was given, so now I am assuming that abilities are not revealed. I hope we haven't lost anything useful. I guess

Second player on my suspect list to ask this question. Noted.[/quote]
If a starting player asked this it'd be one thing, but nhammen is replacing into a massive game. Asking this question rather than poring over the rules and posts until he figures it out is reasonable. I know laziness and game unawareness are considered to be scum aligned among many, but I think it's fair for a player on either side of the aisle to ask for the help catching up. Did you mean something else here?

I hope we haven't lost anything useful. I guess

Are watchers useful?

Oh, right, it is dangerous to give anti town roles to the person we find scummiest. Maybe we do this for the person we find towniest?

You are seriously suggesting to kill off the towniest player? Or am I misreading this? Or am I reopening two week old discussions that have already been resolved?

I recanted the poor fruit of my brainstorming, and that seemed to be enough for most all of the town.

At the point I suggested this, I still wasn't used to the CONSTANT cycling nature of this theme game and was trying to think in mafia terms. Cycling and stable roles got mixed in my head, and I thought of the treestump as something that could possibly shield an obvscum indefinitely. It's bad, but not that bad, it's forced to move off of scummy players. Definitely should only be removed along with a scummy player, or at least a null.

~Spoiler adjusted to preserve intent and content, and meet player request. Also some tags fixed.

[StrangerCoug]

Math in the spoiler.

The use of invisible, small, or encrypted text is prohibited. Use your judgment, if it is unreadable by the Moderator, it is unacceptable.

*headdesk*

[popsofctown]

i'm sorry, i thought it was one of those open/close spoilers . That would have been suitable.

Mod can you remove the tags?

[popsofctown]

Spoiler: Math

Town
Town
Town
Town<Stump
Scum
Scum
-----
No lynch (only if they can't get townies to mislynch for the loss)
-----
Town
Town
Town
Town<Stump
Scum
Scum
-----
Night kill, 2/3s chance of
------
Town<Stump
Town
Town
Scum
Scum
------
No lynch
------
Town<Stump
Town
Town
Scum
Scum
------
Game sealing nightkill
------
Town
Town
Scum
Scum

If the stump is passed to scum, it goes from that original starting state to this on day 2.
Town
Town
Town
Scum<stump
Scum
-----
nonstump scum is lynched
-----
Town
Town
Town
Scum<stump
------
Night kill one, pass to another
------
Town
Town>stump
Scum
------
No lynch, endgame.