Mafia 123 - Outdoorsmen Mafia 2 GAME OVER

[DemonHybrid]

1/4 of the total players in every game are scum (more or less, on average). This would correctly mean that there would be two teams of two scum.

It doesn't seem right that mini themes can have the same number though. UT's post has to do with our involvement in Skillville obviously, but maybe he's right about an SK and doesn't know it.

Fucking christ, why are we discussing set-up this early anyway?

[Nachomamma8]

Erm, no. Your false dilemma is noted though. People seem to love these. If DH really believe his logic, he is scum. His ideas are scum. Is play is scum.

Did you not receive a town role PM iam? It clearly states two scum teams. You are insinuating that there is a three person scum team.

Obviously, this makes no sense to have two three person scum teams in a 16 player game.

So come back with better conspiracy theories next time.

10-3-3 is impossible? What gave you that idea?

[Nachomamma8]

...and I'm going to bed soon, so I'll put it this way.

A general rule for mafia games is the town must be able to get three mislynches + no love with nontown kills to be endgames.
10-3-3
7-3-3
4-3-3
1-3-3
ENDGAMED

There's three mislynches. Obviously, the setup kind of guesses that the town isn't going to be complete and total failures, and there will be some scumlynches/crosskills going on, but the point is proven.

And I'm tired and I missed this before, but there's one little thing I missed:
WHY DOES IT MATTER? YOU ONLY PROVED USERNAMES POINT MORE BY TRYING TO SHOW THAT IT WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE FOR DH TO BE SCUM IF HE TRULY BELIEVED PAC AND YOU WERE SCUM.
>.>

[iamausername]

Erm, no. Your false dilemma is noted though. People seem to love these. If DH really believe his logic, he is scum. His ideas are scum. Is play is scum.

Did you not receive a town role PM iam?

It clearly states two scum teams.

You are insinuating that there is a three person scum team. Obviously, this makes no sense to have two three person scum teams in a 16 player game. So come back with better conspiracy theories next time.

The correct answer was "Actually, DH could be scum and genuinely believe me and evilpacman to be scum on the other team". You get partial credit for acknowledging the existence of multiple scumteams, so I am upgrading you to 'dumb town'. Congratulations!

Now, you're still using horribly faulty logic in your pursuit of DH. You seem to be equating 'wrong' with 'scum', and they are really, really not the same thing. Trying to determine whether DH really believes what he's saying, that's a good approach to take. That is, in fact, the very foundation upon which all scumhunting is built. But then you go and wreck it by saying that he should be lynched if he

does

genuinely believe it. This is the opposite of what we want to do. We want to look for the people who are NOT being genuine, and lynch them.

Also, it's pretty funny that you wrongly assume that I'd missed the fact that there were two scum teams because I implied a three-man scum team, while ignoring this:

vote DH

because he is obviously a bulletproof SK

...and another townie has joined the fray. Noticed how he subtly brings my attention to something I've forgotten in my lists (SK possibilities). Meaning that Parama isn't cleared yet because he is only townie due to interactions with EPM-scum. Guderian stays in the scum section, though.

[Parama]

A 10-3-3 is not balanced by any means. Town has 3 mislynches, yet needs to lynch scum 6 times (in the worst case scenario). So the game's basically relying on crosskills. 10-3-3 is incredibly swingy and if we're playing a 10-3-3 then screw this game. 12-2-2 probably isn't likely either considering that the game could end D2 in the best case scenario. Also very swingy. Meh. 2 mafia factions in a game this small is barely normal anyways.

Agree 100% on EPM - his first post set off tons of alarms and it's been flailing nonstop since then.
In other news, I don't see why DH is town. He didn't even bother to point out EPM's "vote everyone" ploy, though I agree that it makes him unlikely to be scum with EPM since they posted back to back. But I wouldn't be shocked if EPM and DH were on different scumteams.
Guderian 35 lolOMGUS. P.S. for anyone arguing differently, it does actually happen, but rarely.
IAAUN could totally be on the not-EPM scumteam. Or could be a good townie sheeping Nacho. I can't tell.
DH 48 is like fencesit central. I don't even see how he's making any town lists at all. He's saying all that like he doesn't believe a word of it or isn't interested in lynching right.

Scum here:
Evilpacman
Guderian
DemondHybrid
??? (DH's buddy)
[Maybe 2 more scum maybe not?]

Town here:
Nachomamma

UT and IAAUN are the only others who've posted and I don't have enough to get a solid read off them yet, so meeeeh.

vote: Evilpacman

llama

[ender241]

I'm really disliking the fact that after a couple pages with little not many people posting people are making decisions on who's scum and town already. I haven't played any games except from newbie games on this site but you can't automatically decide who's scum and who isn't...

[Untrod Tripod]

...I have never been in a game where people make srsface scumlists on page 2. I really have no idea what to make of this.

...

......

I'll keep voting DH though.

[DemonHybrid]

V/LA until tonight/tomorrow. Fixing up a house.

[tylerjarvis]

Wow you guys made some quick judgments. Sorry I'm just now getting started, I thought this game wasn't supposed to start until today.

Personally, I think a 10-3-3 game sounds a bit unreasonable, especially if there's a serial killer too. That would mean we're looking at potentially 4 deaths every night/day (including lynchings), which could mean the game ends after night 2. A 12-2-2 game sounds reasonable if there's a serial killer. I suppose it could be possible that we've got a 11-3-2 game. Is there anything that says the mafia teams will be even? Either way, I think we're looking for an absolute maximum of 5 scum (although more likely 4) and a possible serial killer. So we're looking for a maximum of 6 lynches. Hopefully less.

Even with that many lynches, it is unlikely that the town could win without cross-killings between mafia, or without the serial killer taking out scum. But I think this means we might want to take our time on this day and make the best possible judgment. None of you have enough information yet to be certain about who you're lynching. We cannot afford to mislynch this early just because you think somebody said something semi scummy in their RVS.

[/b]Vote: Untrod Tripod.[/b] Because I don't want your stupid hint.

[tylerjarvis]

let me try that again

Vote: Untrod Tripod.

There.

One of these days, I'll post without having to correct it.

[evilpacman18]

...I have never been in a game where people make srsface scumlists on page 2. I really have no idea what to make of this.

...

......

I'll keep voting DH though.

Especially scum lists based on an RVS vote.

I do appreciate Nachomamma's enthusiasm though.

Confirm Vote: Evilpacman18

Seems to me like you're trying to distance from your RVS vote... It seems odd that you would choose to make your vote so logical and mechanical as opposed to all of your other games where you were town...

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 55&start=0
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 21&start=0

In these two games, which are the only two you've RVS'ed in (you were town both times), you started out with a more playful, casual, carefree vote. But this vote is different. Why?

Well I actually didn't RVS in the second game, I replaced in and voted vollkan, who ended up being scum and it totally wasn't an RVS vote. In the first game, the only people I knew were Parama who I was mad at for getting me lynched in a game on Scorehero in which he was so obvscum that I claimed scum and said he was my scumbuddy just so people would lynch him, he ended up being town, and Anti who I DID vote for BECAUSE I knew him (and because he was SK and killed me when I was scum about to win if he chose anyone BESIDES me in another game I replaced into). So I really don't see the difference in metas between there and now.

If EPM is scum, so is Guderian.

Your question was so broken. What was the correct answer? I had three choices.
If I answere Parama, Guderian and I become scum.
If I answere Guderian, Parama and I become scum.
If I refused to answer, I become twice the scum. You can't reaction test properly if all my reactions will enforce your theory that I'm scum. Again, especially one that's based off of a single post.

I'd agree with what DH has said wholeheartedly. Adding a reason for picking a name UNPROMPTED shows that he's nervous about his choice, so he wants to act like he put more thought into it than he actually did. And, he's definitely not the type to tie himself to his scumbuddy by stating their name out of a group of two people, so yeah, I'd agree with that assessment.

TOWN:
Nachomamma8
DemonHybrid
Parama

SCUM:
evilpacman18

Come on, the rest of you, don't be afraid to post. It's not like you're going to be able to hide from me forever...

See but if I didn't add a reason, the outcome would've been the same (me and whoever I don't pick are scum) AND I would have been forced into saying why I picked the name when there wasn't even supposed to be a why in the first place:

Not in regards to anything in particular, just which one appeals most to you.

If EPM is scum, so is Guderian.

This is utter nonsense on so many levels.

Are you serious? If so, you deserve to by lynched before page 3.

Vote DemonHybrid

Is mastin hydraing with anyone or not?

While I agree it's ridiculous, it doesn't really merit a vote. I don't think his logic is scummy, just stupid.

iamusername's vote's already in the right place, which is definitely the right start for him. He also points out that I've gotten the game sewn up already, which doesn't sound like scum cutting their losses and bussing to me. After all, it's not wise to gamble if there's a protective role in the game or not, and he just told them who to protect.

You sound just like Fate Claiming people are town because they sheep you. However, I count that as a town (with big ego) tell.

A 10-3-3 is not balanced by any means. Town has 3 mislynches, yet needs to lynch scum 6 times (in the worst case scenario). So the game's basically relying on crosskills. 10-3-3 is incredibly swingy and if we're playing a 10-3-3 then screw this game. 12-2-2 probably isn't likely either considering that the game could end D2 in the best case scenario. Also very swingy. Meh. 2 mafia factions in a game this small is barely normal anyways.

Agree 100% on EPM - his first post set off tons of alarms and it's been

1. flailing nonstop since then.

In other news, I don't see why DH is town. He didn't even bother to point out EPM's "vote everyone" ploy, though I agree that it makes him unlikely to be scum with EPM since they posted back to back. But I wouldn't be shocked if EPM and DH were on different scumteams.
Guderian 35 lolOMGUS. P.S. for anyone arguing differently, it does actually happen, but rarely.
IAAUN could totally be on the not-EPM scumteam. Or could be a good townie sheeping Nacho. I can't tell.
DH 48 is like fencesit central. I don't even see how he's making any town lists at all. He's saying all that like he doesn't believe a word of it or isn't interested in lynching right.

Scum here:
Evilpacman
Guderian
DemondHybrid
??? (DH's buddy)
[Maybe 2 more scum maybe not?]

Town here:

2. Nachomamma

UT and IAAUN are the only others who've posted and I don't have enough to get a solid read off them yet, so meeeeh.

vote: Evilpacman

llama

1. Flailing nonstop since then? I've posted once and it was short. This is a pretty big hyperbole. Don't see any town reasons to exaggerate like that either.
2. There's no reason to peg Nachomamma as town. You obviously believe I'm on one of the scum teams. You have no reason to believe he can't be on the other scum team or powerbussing. He's already exhibited one similarity to Fate, I wouldn't be surprised to see more of them.

unvote

since RVS is over but I'm not placing a real vote yet.

[ender241]

Am i missing something? Where is everyone getting the idea about 10-3-3, we haven't even confirmed ONE mafia member yet how can we know how many there are? Seriously we need to focus on getting the scum out and worry less about how many there are or were just going to not get anything done and when the deadline goes we have no lynch.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm back. Parama is most assuredly town, even if he did sheep a little bit. He's making his own decisions. I need a little bit more info on UT until I can make a clear read on him.

Responding to EPM's post.

[DemonHybrid]

Your question was so broken. What was the correct answer? I had three choices.
If I answere Parama, Guderian and I become scum.
If I answere Guderian, Parama and I become scum.
If I refused to answer, I become twice the scum. You can't reaction test properly if all my reactions will enforce your theory that I'm scum. Again, especially one that's based off of a single post.

Wrong.

If you answered Parama, Guderian is scum

if you are scum

.
If you answered Guderian, Parama is scum

if you are scum

.
And in actuality, if you had refused to answer, that would have looked more town than anything else. It answers the absurdity of the question without having to make up an excuse, like Nacho said you did and what I agree with. Guderian's soft defending of you is VERY weird in this case; he has nothing to fight against, especially since I didn't come right out and said "Guderian is scum."

I said "Guderian is scum if EPM is scum". So what does he have to worry about unless he has inside info? His reactions ARE scummy, especially when he's defending against something that he doesn't need to defend against.

See but if I didn't add a reason, the outcome would've been the same (me and whoever I don't pick are scum) AND I would have been forced into saying why I picked the name when there wasn't even supposed to be a why in the first place:

is moot. It was a subconscious mind game.

I like Parama's suspicion of me and pegging Nacho as town. He's using his brain. But he's a very sharp scum player as well, so I have a slight eye on him, but I don't think we have much to worry about. Reads have not changed.

My list so far:

Town
Nacho
Parama
iamausername

I dunno
UT
ender

Scummy
tylerjarvis
Guderian (due to reactions)
EPM

Tyler is scummy because he has a lot of filler, but not any substance. So much info is already on the table and he tosses it aside to talk set-up. I'm not ruling him as concrete scum quite yet.

[Parama]

@EPM: Nothing Nacho has done is even remotely scummy. Why would I even consider him a scum suspect? Deflect more.

[RossWilliam]

wow feel bad to be joining in three pages late but I totally missed the start of this one.

Mod, could we get a votecount please?

That'll help me catch up. At a glance, don't like EPM or DH but I do need to read more carefully before getting in depth. Also, I don't think it's likely that it would be 10-3-3, its unfair. I don't think a mod going for a balanced game would throw that at us. 12-2-2 is more likely, but there is no guarantee that the two mafia groups are the same size. Maybe one is larger, but less powered. All my role pm said was that there was two groups, no specifics.

[evilpacman18]

@EPM: Nothing Nacho has done is even remotely scummy. Why would I even consider him a scum suspect? Deflect more.

Not saying consider him a scum suspect. Saying don't consider him obvtown.

[DemonHybrid]

@EPM: Nothing Nacho has done is even remotely scummy. Why would I even consider him a scum suspect? Deflect more.

Not saying consider him a scum suspect. Saying don't consider him obvtown.

...If he's not obvtown, then he SHOULD be considered a scum suspect. Everyone should be suspected until considered obvtown. You're either town or you aren't.

[evilpacman18]

Exactly. He's not obvtown. Could be scum. Not saying he's likely to be, not saying I have a case on him or the evidence with which to build one. Just everyone's got him on their town lists. That's never good for town. If he is scum, he's already in position to coast his team to the win.

[DemonHybrid]

I don't think anyone is closed to the idea that he could be scum. He just has not done one single scummy thing so far this game.

[tylerjarvis]

Tyler is scummy because he has a lot of filler, but not any substance. So much info is already on the table and he tosses it aside to talk set-up. I'm not ruling him as concrete scum quite yet.

One post and I'm labelled as having a lot of filler? You say we have so much info in the table, but I'm more inclined to believe most of the "information" is completely fabricated by overzealous players. We're two pages in and people are already building scum lists. Some people haven't even posted yet. Not only do we not have enough information to have a scumlist, the informatio we do have is based solely on overreactions.

We are not nearly as well informed as you're pretending we are.

[DemonHybrid]

Not a word about EPM. Not a word about Guderian. Not a word on my mindfuck game, Nacho's position, Guderian's soft defense of EPM, not of Parama, not of ender, not of ANYTHING. Not even of UT himself, just a vote on him due to his SK joke.

Only setup speculation.

[Guderian]

---Its hardly omgus (yay buzzword whoever said this!). I would make this case on DH if he said that about anyone else.

--- 10-3-3 is one mislynch away from everyday lylo from town.

--- With 2 scum teams, DH isn't particularly concerned with who is scum as long as he can implicate others in that persons fall. This reaffirms why I think youre scum. It may very well turn out that EPM is scum, but since it wont be from your faction, you dont mind who the next person you implicate and lynch is.

--- And on the subject of EPM, youve set yourself up in such a way to try and lynch him and no matter what he flips implicate someone else (me in this case). You've stated that if he flips scum, I'm scum, and that if he flips town, well then i'm probably scum too.

--- DH, do you think pacman is scum just because of his opening three votes for people he had played with before?

--- Plus, if we want to be silly, he voted you too. Does that make you scum if he flips scum?

--- ok ender, got any thoughts. Is DH scummy, or am i crazy? What is EPM. Do you like parama?

[DemonHybrid]

Guderian is all over the place this game.

---Its hardly omgus (yay buzzword whoever said this!). I would make this case on DH if he said that about anyone else.

Yeah, not going to take your word for it. In this specific case, it means one of two things:

1. It IS OMGUS, which means you're lying
2. You're soft defending EPM

Both are scummy and punishable by death by hanging. However, if EPM flips town, I would need to reread; I address this coming up.

--- With 2 scum teams, DH isn't particularly concerned with who is scum as long as he can implicate others in that persons fall. This reaffirms why I think youre scum. It may very well turn out that EPM is scum, but since it wont be from your faction, you dont mind who the next person you implicate and lynch is.

This is basically saying the exact same thing Parama did, only without the thought process behind it and with more of the sheeping. Bad. By the way, you haven't said a word about what Nacho and iamausername have said about your case on me.

--- And on the subject of EPM, youve set yourself up in such a way to try and lynch him and no matter what he flips implicate someone else (me in this case). You've stated that if he flips scum, I'm scum, and that if he flips town, well then i'm probably scum too.

Actually, Nacho has been dead on about EPM's actions and the scum motivation behind them. Nacho and I didn't just "make up" EPM's scumminess; either you can't read that well or you are trying to bullshit your way out of an EPM lynch, which I have no clue why you would (seriously, why are you still defending him? What are you hiding?)

If EPM were to flip scum, you would be my next vote. If he were to flip town, I would reread. This is a case of you putting words into my mouth and saying something that is completely fabricated,

you absolute hypocrite

.

--- DH, do you think pacman is scum just because of his opening three votes for people he had played with before?

Nacho made a good point, but I did not think he was scum until you

yes you

started soft defending him like crazy at the notion that if he is scum, then you are. Please try to find an ounce of serious suspicion

aimed towards evilpacman

before I said "my vote on EPM is getting stronger by the second" or something to that effect.

--- Plus, if we want to be silly, he voted you too. Does that make you scum if he flips scum?

I have no clue what you're getting at here. He didn't suspect you at all, so what's the connection you're trying to make up now?

--- ok ender, got any thoughts. Is DH scummy, or am i crazy? What is EPM. Do you like parama?

Desperate ally searching

oh my, someone's having kittens

[DemonHybrid]

Here's a TL;DR or a response to a "what the fuck did you just say" post.

1. EPM votes Parama, you, ends with me
2. Nacho's like "Woah what, that's scummy. And you're ending with DH, so that's weird brah"
3. I go "Nope. Vote epm. See, not buddies."
4. Nacho says "Cool, DH is town"
5. I go "It'd be cool to peg one or two scum at this point, Nacho's on the right track methinks. Anyway, EPM, pick a card, and by card I mean dude"
6. EPM goes "Oh Parama cause totally name shorter and not distancing at all no siree bob
7. DH: "If EPM is scum, so is Guderian."
8. Nacho agrees
9. Guderian "WHAT THE FUCK?!

HOLD THE PHONE

THAT'S RIDICULOUS

u srs, bro?! If so, u die! U die now! *votes*"

10. DH goes "Wow, Guderian, you freaked out. Due to your reaction, I can confirm that Nacho's read was correct and EPM is scummy with you included, however, if he flips town, I'll need to check again so untwist yo panties."

So, EPM set himself up as scummy, but you cemented it. Let's make sure the picture is straight on the wall before you criticize it, ok?