Mini 1075 - Fishtown Mafia

[Corvuus]

Today, you post 'I should have hammered myself when I had the chance'. Why is that? Your goal was to prevent a no lynch. There was a lynch after all, so what's wrong?
All this 'selfhammer' stuff seems like one big appeal to emotion to me.

I also don't like his most recent vote on DavidParker. He hasn't mentioned DavidParker-scum at all before today. Yet now he suddenly hops on the wagon with the question 'why did you change your vote?'. This makes no sense. Corvuus, DavidParker is under suspicion now because he switched his vote from you to Singersigner. If you're town, you shouldn't have any problems with DavidParker switching his vote from a townie to another townie.

Actually, I would like to hear what Mr. Wright has to say to my answers.

You say "if i am town, you shouldn't have any problems with DP switching his vote from a townie to another townie". Do you seriously have no problem with DP switching his vote? Especially since DP-scum would *know* and therefore also know singer-mislynch could be followed by Corv-mislynch? I viewed DP as a VI-crazy-townie type but him switching his vote and misrepresenting (if you read his iso and what he has said recently) then it is more than enough to warrant a vote despite me believing he was more of a VI-town than scum previously.

I'd also like to hear what you have to say about my self-hammer point. It isn't appeal to emotion when it is statement of fact. I am the 'easy-lynch' for the rest of the game, as town, getting myself night killed would be the best option, lynched 2nd best if it prevents everyone else from scumhunting, viewing the game, etc. Which is what seems to be happening. So my lynch as Corv-town was better than singer. DP denied that and it is INCREDIBLY scummy for him to have done so.

I'll also state that 'hop on the wagon', is seriously just me as the 2nd vote on DP when Noc was already at L-1. The 'easy' thing for me to do would have been 'yeah, get that noc guy, horrible horrible' (which is probably what DP would do) but it is 1000 times DP's fault than Noc's fault. And while it is not implausible that Noc is scum who took advantage of the situation, it just simply isn't the most likely possibility.

Either way, Mr. Wright gets a neutral leading scum read.

Corv

[havingfitz]

Not sure I'm liking any of the wagons. Of the three....I'd probably support a Nocmen wagon the most with DP and Corv a close second....with Corv slighty ahead of DP due to reasons I gave with my recent vote on him. I would still prefer an Emp lynch to any of the current wagons. The way Emp hopped onto Corv right after my vote was just too flippant and coupled with my D1 suspicions I'd still like to see him go. Since I don't like having my vote out of play I'll park it there and see if that wagon has wheels.

VOTE: Empking

PS...what happened to our new guys. Mr Wright made a decent post last Friday but none since and

Grump is due for a prod

already...after his lone post from last Thursday

[Empking]

HF: What changed with Corv and Noc?
How was my change of vote flippant? I said I wanted to see Corv or Noc lynched. I took the blunt course of action to try and see that happen. We're on D3 without a single decent lynch and flipping around like a fish doesn't seem to solve that problem.

[DavidParker]

Corv's latest post was terrible.

Vote: Corv

Mostly the part about having a go at the town for speculating on buddying/interactions following a corv flip, then he attacks the town saying they shoudl think about what a dp or nocmen lynch would do for his speculation. You are trying to divert the lynch onto myself/nocmen here in a very scummy way. I don't like it.

As for your "thiinking out for the town", i have no intention of rushing through lylo and quick-voting or voting foolishly in the event that I reach lylo.

[Rhinox]

To: Mr. Wright and Corvuus and anyone else who said something along this line in the last 2 pages:

Not speaking for anyone else, but my vote on Nocmen has nothing to do with Corvuus' allignment. Its not because I think he's his scumbuddy or anything.

Its because Nocmen did not vote for Corvuus on D1 and allowed the mislynch to happen, but was then willing to lynch corvuus on D2 for the same reasons I already detailed on D1, only he reacted as if it were some new thing he was hearing for the first time.

I will grant that the switch from corv to singer looks a hell of a lot scummier if there is a corvuus-scum lynch first, but Nocmen being scum is not dependent on corvuus being scum.

[Nocmen]

Theres a difference when you look at Corv's posts in Day 2. Rhinox, your exchange of posts with Corv and his reactions are one of hte main reasons why I felt that corvuus was scum. This outweighed most if not all of FA's case, which I never felt was scummy, and I still don't, besides him going AWOL. Much like Emp said, where he'd like either Corv or Me lynched, I felt the same between singer and corv.

[Fishythefish]

Day 3, Votecount 4

Corvuus (4) - Nocmen, Mr Wright, Empking, DavidParker
DavidParker (2) - neko2086, Corvuus
Nocmen (1) - Rhinox
Empking (1) - havingfitz

Not Voting (2) - Grump

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Mr Wright and Grump have been prodded.

[havingfitz]

HF: What changed with Corv and Noc?
How was my change of vote flippant? I said I wanted to see Corv or Noc lynched. I took the blunt course of action to try and see that happen. We're on D3 without a single decent lynch and flipping around like a fish doesn't seem to solve that problem.

In that you just put it out there with no reasoning. I realize you have been focused on corv/FA for most of the game but if you are really suspicious of both of them what was wrong with the 3 person wagon you were currently sitting on (Noc)? In post 504 you invite me to start a wagon on Lrd (who you were voting earlier for 'lying' [which I did not see] but then backed off because of..."if nobody else sees it then its probably not there with regards to Lrd.". Now you are willing to start a Lrd wagon for what reason?

In post 524 you vote Noc because is "pretty clear he is scum with Cor" yet you provide no reason for why it's pretty clear and I can not find any suspicions prior to your vote on Noc. All this combined with your no comment vote on Corv in Post 538 is IMO flippant.

And while we may be on D3 the first day was a wash without a lynch and NK so it's more like D2 and we only have the one mislynch against us.

I still like an Emp lynch for my earlier reasons as well as the points I mention above. Looking at the voting patterns and how the people I suspect and don't suspect are voting, I'm of the opinion there are scum among Emp, Noc and DP and I could go for any of their lynches.

Emp’s hesitation in hammering singer gave me a bit of pause (ie a town feel) but with the way we do votes in this game he (Emp) was under no pressure to put a vote down anyway. Someone was going to go and with singer being town (and possibly Corv as well) there was no pressure to move his vote.

It does make it difficult to continue this game with ~25% of the players awol. Grump and Mr Wright, why replace in? I hope you haven't both fallen and are unable to get up.

I'll try this strictly on the aforementioned voting pattern suspicions (and the fact Emp has not garnered much support other than from two dead players, myself, and Corv) VOTE: David Parker

[Corvuus]

Corv's latest post was terrible.

Vote: Corv

Mostly the part about having a go at the town for speculating on buddying/interactions following a corv flip, then he attacks the town saying they shoudl think about what a dp or nocmen lynch would do for his speculation. You are trying to divert the lynch onto myself/nocmen here in a very scummy way. I don't like it.

As for your "thiinking out for the town", i have no intention of rushing through lylo and quick-voting or voting foolishly in the event that I reach lylo.

DP: I'm not sure if you are reading or enjoying my use of words but let me put it for you this way.

Mr. Wright (and others) are saying that lynching me (and me flipping town) would show that you are not likely scum since there wouldn't be scum motivation for you (and noc) to vote like that.

This is false. Regardless of my alignment, you changing your vote is scummy AND there is potential scum motivation for it. The fact that I will flip town does not in any way make what you did 'better' nor will my flip give town points to anyone in any of the no lynch/strangeness fiascos.

The point about people thinking like this is because if a). you are trying to use my lynch to gain info on other players, in particular Noc and DP, then b). would their (noc and DP) lynch give info on my alignment? It is a question for people to think about and arrive at their own answer, but I'd say no in both cases. I actually like that Rhinox thinks of us independently but whatever.

As for you, DP, not rushing through lylo, etc., I don't believe you and find it interesting that when questioned before, you seem flippant, nonchalant, belligerant about your views and changing views, yet now you are interested in what is happening? Still without giving a reasonable explanation for why you thought a singer lynch was better than a Corv lynch, or why you dislike me now except for the fact that I am ok with lynching you?

Corv

[Empking]

HF: What changed with Corv and Noc?
How was my change of vote flippant? I said I wanted to see Corv or Noc lynched. I took the blunt course of action to try and see that happen. We're on D3 without a single decent lynch and flipping around like a fish doesn't seem to solve that problem.

In that you just put it out there with no reasoning. I realize you have been focused on corv/FA for most of the game but if you are really suspicious of both of them what was wrong with the 3 person wagon you were currently sitting on (Noc)?

1. Noc was never my preferred choice.
2. The corv wagon was bigger (excluding myself)

In post 504 you invite me to start a wagon on Lrd (who you were voting earlier for 'lying' [which I did not see] but then backed off because of..."if nobody else sees it then its probably not there with regards to Lrd.". Now you are willing to start a Lrd wagon for what reason?

Because you expressed a sentiment that I interpreted as you seeing it.

[Fishythefish]

Day 3, Votecount 5

Corvuus (4) - Nocmen, Mr Wright, Empking, DavidParker
DavidParker (3) - neko2086, Corvuus, havingfitz
Nocmen (1) - Rhinox

Not Voting (1) - Grump

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

[havingfitz]

Mr Wright and Grump have been prodded.

What's the verdict mod?

[Rhinox]

I'm starting to wonder how much longer I can see Corvuus sitting there at L-1 and not throw down a hammer...

...but I don't like where all the votes are currently. more townie reads off the wagon, and more scummy reads on it.

[Corvuus]

Noc also hasn't responded. I'm interested in whether he prefers a DP lynch versus a Corv lynch and, in particular, what is Noc's reasons for voting me. To save yourself, because you want my flip, think i am scum, etc.

C

[Fishythefish]

Mr Wright and Grump have been prodded.

What's the verdict mod?

Hopefully they'll return. If not, I'll start looking for replacements about 48 hours after the prods.

[Nocmen]

If I wasn't your preferred choice Emp, then why vote for me?
Corv, as I said before, I think that DP is less likely to be scum now that singer was not scum. I'm extremely convinced either DP or Corv is scum, but I don't know which exactly yet. If Corv is lynched and comes up town, I feel less convinced of DP as scum. Which is why I prefer a corv lynch today. And as Corv said, would a DP lynch give info on his alignment? No, but I think that the opposite is true, mainly because I don't think DP scum would make the votes he did between two townies. If one was a scum buddy...well that's very different, but that case depends on Corv's alignment.

[neko2086]

DP, you're allowed to change your mind. Obviously. But you change your vote so frequently and without any explanation, that I don't think you're doing any scumhunting with them. And you're right--a large portion of my case has to do with you not giving reasons for thing. You're not cooperating with the town--and I can't imagine you have any pro-town reasons for it.

Jailkeeper is a roleblock + protect. Ad choosing EMP is based on Ad wanting to roleblock EMP, not exactly wanting to protect him. However, I would have expected Ad to want to lynch EMP yet Ad/Scott seemed to think EMP was town. Maybe Ad thought roleblock, Scott thought it protected? Either way, re-reading Ad/Scott doesn't say who he might have targeted but since i am still of the opinion that EMP looks way too scummy for EVERYONE to magically say he is town, then I'll go with my conspiracy theory that scum targeted EMP and know it was blocked/protected. Otherwise this 'confirmation-town-bias' crap makes no sense at all.

OK, this makes a little more sense, but I find it highly unlikely that both the jailkeeper and the scum targeted Emp.


I agree with HF, that this is getting very difficult with two players/player slots that are constantly absent. We need everyone in the conversation before anyone drops the hammer. Plus, these are two slots that have housed some rather unsavory characters, and they need to be watched with caution.

[Empking]

Noc: Because you'rte clearly scum with Corv and you had the wagon.

[Fishythefish]

Grump and Mr Wright are being replaced.

[Fishythefish]

Fenhl replaces Grump. Hooray for Fenhl!

Still searching for a Mr Wright replacement.

[Fenhl]

Hi everybody!
As announced by Fishythefish, I am the replacement for Grump, who replaced Lrdwhyt earlier.

[…] Still searching for a Mr Wright replacement.

Are you going for some kind of record or something.

Rereading now.

[Fenhl]

RQS!!!
1. What can we expect from you activity-wise?
2. What time zone are you in?
3. Are there any circumstances in which you would hammer someone you believe to be innocent?
4. What generation are you in/from?
5. I'm OCD and needed a fifth "question."

1. I have a smartphone and access from school, so I will be active almost every day. I tend not to post walls of text though.
2. UTC+1, but I think in UTC.
3. Yes, if it helps me win the game.
4. I am 16 years old.
5. FATAL ERROR; SHUTTING DOWN.

Current progress: page 3. Stupid downtime.

[Fishythefish]

And Haylen replaces Mr Wright. All hail Haylen!

[Fishythefish]

DavidParker has been prodded.

[Haylen]

Hi guys, I'm guessing none of you are happy to see me. That's cool.
First thing to mention. I am V/LA at the weekends. The exception will probably be christmas weekend.

Now onto the important stuff.

Corvuus/Fallen Angel

Fallen Angel

Her first few posts are ok, but I'm not buying the 'out of curiousity' stuff. With mafia, you either want to know something or you don't. The only time 'out of curiousity' applies is if you want to know something that isn't completely relevant to the game. For example, somebody says something about my playstyle and I say 'out of curiousity, what do you mean by that.' There's a massive difference. Filing this away in my mind for any possible future reference.

Woah woah woah, hold back. Agreeing to massclaim on Day One, when the game has barely even started? Why would you so this? At worst, this is role fishing, which is scummy because it will out our powerroles and give the town the disadvantage rather than the scum. As town, our job is to do everything we possibly can to put the scum at a disadvantage. Those are not town intentions. She then backtracks and tells Empking that the idea of massclaiming helping the town is subjective, it looks like she realised what she was arguing was wrong.

Misrepping DavidParker. He does not appear to be buddying where she says he is, this shows she is willing to make stuff up in order to obtain a lynch, showing a complete lack of town intention again.

Her Iso post 8 annoys me slightly. She says that she does not want to vote Empking because he is not obvious scum to her, but she does not explain why she believes he is town.

Iso 9 makes no sense at all. She says that a town tell is WIFOM because scum could use it to appear town like. If that was the case, then scum tells would be WIFOM aswell. From what I can see, DavidParker just has a lude definition of what buddying is, which should be obvious to fallen angel since she has been on site for longer than I have (In fact, I seem to remember us in the same game once.) DP is getting buddying mixed up with defending and fallen angel is strawmanning it.

Why continue the debate over whether people are good depending on experience level? It just takes up valuable time in scumhunting. I don't care how experienced another player is, I'm gonna treat them and their opinions with the same respect as everybody else (yeah, even you Fenhl >.<).

Hypocrisy, she says that Adumbro is strawmanning by accusing her of having a hurt ego, when this is probably closer to the truth than what she was accusing DP of doing whilst strawmanning.

Overall, she doesn't give me a very good town impression.

Corvuus

I don't like his first post in the game. He says that people often ask for MC as town to create discussion which is a defence of Empking. But then he lists Empking as one of his suspects without giving any reason why, which smells like pretty obvious distancing to me. He also then goes onto say that Noc and HF have to be town because they didn't see Fallen Angel as scum. This is scummy because it shows scum intentions. Scum always want people alive who agree with them and believe they are town, thus they will put them in their town list and try to stop them from being lynched. Then in his next post, he goes ahead and votes with Empking with very little reasoning - rather than taking the obvious route of trying to explain what is wrong empkings actions, he just tells him he should be lynched for them because he doesn't understand. This doesn't sound like a person who believes another person is mafia, it sounds like somebody who wants somebody else lynched on policy or to make themselves look good - the only reason Corvuus would look good if Empking is lynched is if Empking flips mafia because nobody will suspect he is scum due to the distancing.

He then goes ahead and adds singer into his list of three people who could be scum without any reasoning aswell. This is scummy because it allows him to fencesit if she gets lynched. If she flips scum, he could just turn around and say 'yeh, i thought she was scum, see I said so in this post.'

His iso 12 also makes no sense. He claims that FA couldn't have been scum because she got ran up to L-1 and wasn't lynched or hammered. Not being funny but scum wouldn't intentionally hammer their buddy so early in the game if they didn't believe their playerslot was salvagable.

He then also backtracks and decides that Empking is town in his Iso 27, despite arguing that he has to be scum for the majority of his time in the game. It really seems as though he has just decided to jump off his buddy just in case he does get lynched.

Post 36: WOAH. Self hammer????????? No! In games, we do not self-hammer. This seems like a bluff to me. AND claims Jester? No! Never bring jesters up in a game unless it's a bastard game or an open game. They are not normal roles. The goes back on his claim by saying he should have hammered himself. Don't self vote, it's ridiculous.

Conclusion:

At this point in the game, I would vote for him.

Incog, CA, Neko

ConfidentAnon

Lets see what I can find here, there doesn't appear to be much content from him.

WTF???? Agrees with starting off with a massclaim? No no no. Scummy scummy scummy. His other post is WIFOM.

I am not impressed ~_~

Incognito

Ah, Incog's posts. I always find them to be rather refreshing cause I can always make sense of them <3

I can agree with the whole lot of his first post of content, I'm not finding anything to criticise there. Just seems like ordinary town Incog to me. Good logical posting as usual. I get the feeling that he believes everything he said and all of his actions were with a town-like intention.

I know Incog and that was town Incog.

If you're still reading this, I died a little inside when I saw you flaked

Neko

He posts a lot of words, normally I would have expected a player to be hiding behind that and trying to appear as though he is posting content when really they are just posting Info instead of Analysis. I don't get that from this guy, he posts what he thinks in response to stuff that has happened in the game.

Nope, did not get anything scummy from Neko, logic or gut. :/

Conclusion:

Town. Would not vote nor support the lynch of.

That's all I've got atm. I'm pretty tired, it's 1am.