DEFCON Mafia 2.0 - Over, American Victory!

[bobsnox]

bobsnox - ... Who? He has 5 posts back from RFVS. Mod, can has prods?

I've read almost everything, just nothing to insert atm. Pretty new to this site and this style of mafia.

I will say I'm suspicious of Internet Stranger for the repeated gungho verbage. Maybe that's his playstyle, but it comes off as overkill.

Don't know what to make of Jed. Attempting to steer the game can be an attempt at gaining town cred, but I've seen it as a scum tactic many times. I guess I need to go back through and see whether his suggestions are scummy or just distasteful to several people.

more to come

[Internet Stranger]

Glad you could join us there, komrade bobsnox. Im glad that you have been able to illuminate us with your wisdom after reading "almost everything". Perhaps you can summarize for us whats going on in your quicktopic, that would certainly be more useful to the rest of us actual patriotic Americans than the post-lurk dribble you cared to share instead.

[bobsnox]

I was trying to gain town-cred by busing you, obv

[Percy]

All of those with this attitude:

Percy, I disagree. I want to be a hero and nuke scumz

... you know who you are. I realise that I am not in a strong majority here in wanting this game to be relatively nuke-free. But in my experience, vigs hit town more often than scum, simply because there are more town to go around. You may be convinced of your own super scumhunting skills, but imagine this scenario:

Townie 1: *blah blah blah*
Townie 2: That second "blah" consitutes excellent evidence of your scumminess, sir! Nukes away!

Townie 1 flips Town

Townie 3: You nuked town! You disgusting communist, Nukes away!

Townie 2 flips Town

Rinse repeat.

The problem is that if you're wrong and nuke a townie, it is relatively easy for someone else to conjure up a case against you and nuke you too.

And even if you actually nuke scum, it is in no way proof of your towniness - the Russians and the Chinese want to kill each other too.

The arguments in favour of this approach are thin, to say the least. It seems to boil down to "But I want to be (the motherfucking / the goddamned) Batman", "I want to be a daykiller", etc.

There seems to be some salient discussion from Toogeloo:

How does someone following a town direction to kill prove alignment? If they are scum and town majority wants another town dead, did he just confirm himself when he shot the guy? Leaving individual kills to group consensus opens the avenue of allowing that kill to be manipulated by the informed minority. A little persuasion here, a little charisma there, next thing you know, you've got a vig controlled by the mafia.

In answer to your first question, it doesn't, and shouldn't. It should be viewed as pro- and anti-town, in their usual (somewhat) divorced sense from scum and not-scum. And secondly, your argument seems to defeat itself. If we talk about our nukes and demand sanctions from the town, it is entirely possible that we might be manipulated into misfiring. But isn't that how one catches mafia in other games as well? The mafia try, through charisma and persuasion, to make themselves be not lynched and for others to be lynched. It's analysing these motives that makes almost every case ever made. Attaching the same weight to nuking as lynching seems to me the only sensible thing to do.

It sounds like you want to set up a chain. Town convinces a nuke to shoot another town, someone on the decision must have been scum, so we shoot/lynch him.

Urgh. Who said anything about a chain? You see the potential for chaining, so it's bad? The idea is to treat nuking like lynching. I've played in many games where the scum have been completely absent from a mislynching wagon. You don't have to exhort us to play smart, or insinuate that attempting to monitor the motives for nuking amounts to setting up a townie death line.

Its not a policy lynch. Its nowhere NEAR the same. Its a policy vig, which I endorse and I Love and is what vigs were fucking made for.

I'm with Fate on this one, strangely enough. I think a very good use of vigs is to clear the game of lurkers and hard-to-read VIs. I still believe their behaviour should be manifestly bad and a case for their removal should be presented, but I don't mind splitting the atom to clear the game of morons.

The only rule about nuking should be "don't be stupid".

Er, sure.

Percy uses good words.

Why thank you, sir. But I'm firmly in the anti-MURDER DEATH SPREE camp...

This thread so far makes me want to cry long and hard. Unlike the rest of you, I am willing to admit that this isn't going to go anywhere until DEFCON 4, and furthermore, I am willing to say that I will not even attempt to analyze this thread until DEFCON 4. So see you guys then.

Hey, our first scum, busily plotting in his QT, still reading the game.

FoS: danakillsu

There's no reason why anyone needs to "sanction" nuking, unless, obviously, we are approaching the end of the game.

Why is it that sanctioning nuking is a bad thing? I think getting as many people involved in the nuking process and limiting the chaos a nuke-filled game promises is a good idea. Is there any reason why we shouldn't sanction nuking?

BY THE WAY.

If you want to hang me cause I nuke without your permission, you can do it. But when you lose cause you lynched me for no goddamn reason, you're gonna be feeling like a dumbass.

I see you're pre-empting your nuking of a townie. Should I make you a sign that says "I HATE USA PLEASE SEND NUKES HERE"?

FoS: gandalf5166

NUKES ARE THE FUCKING POINT OF THE GAME. THEY WERE NOT PUT IN AS ADDITIONAL LYNCHES. THEY WERE PUT IN AS NUKES. IF THE MOD HAD WANTED ADDITIONAL LYNCHES, HE WOULD HAVE MODDED LIGHTS OUT. THANK YOU. I'M TAKING A NAP UNTIL DEFCON 3 NOW. AND AT DEFCON ONE, I'LL NUKE WHOEVER I DAMN WELL PLEASE.

This post is so fail I don't even.
Appealing to the intentions of the moderator is a grevious fallacy in itself, but your argument doesn't even make sense. Because it's possible for everyone to nuke everyone else, it should happen?

If we are going to direct nukes, let's take it a step further. Let's direct our scanners/protectors who to scan and doc/rb, hmm? Let's take away the free will of a player who has a read, or wants to use the fear factor of the nuke, and do the same with our other PRs as well. I make it sound pretty drastic, huh? Directing anyone's play style is pretty worthless, and just because a person may have a nuke doesn't mean they don't have a plan for said nuke. We can't launch until DEFCON 1 anyways, at which point there will be a few dead players, 4 phases worth of reading, and plenty of targets/gambits worth playing out. Anyone trying to inhibit nuke use needs to chill until DEFCON 1 imo.

Your

in extremis

argument is horseshit, and you know it is. Directing the town's PRs is obviously not a good idea for more reasons than just depriving one player of the ability to act on their own reads. I think players should be free to pick and use their abilities at their leisure. The only exception is nuking, and my arguments for why that should be the case are clear.

In reply to AV, Jed took the words right out of my mouth:

Well, DEFCON 1 isn't here yet and I'm not willing to cave to your inevitable pessimism.

Enough said.

fate I will bet you moneyz that Dana is town

I'll take you up on this bet. Why do you think this is the case?

bobsnox is my current favourite for lurkerscum who spends more time in his QT than in this thread. Bunnylover and Katsuki as well.

Jed, you're not doing the "let's control nukes" camp any favours by railing against gandalf the way you are. I think you're town, though.

Here, I'll humor you:

What % of the kill is town controlled if the whole town controls the kill?

What % of the kill is town controlled if the townie with the silo controls the kill?


This is why confirmed vigs do whatever the hell they want to.

Maths fail. You left out:

What % of the kill is town controlled if the scum with the silo controls the kill?

... and including it means it all comes out in the wash. At the very least, my plan encourages discussion, accountability and reason.

Internet Stranger should be lynched or nuked before LyLo. His Palinesque rhetoric makes me think of those preachers who rail against homosexuality with fiery words before being caught in Bolivia with a stable of rent boys - I think he doth pro-America too much.

Why not Percy who's made just as many posts, one of which is an EASY way to look pro-town, and the other which was just as useless as dana?

I don't see how what I posted was an easy way to look pro-town. Why do I even come up in this discussion you're having with Fate? I know you're trying to demonstrate inconsistency in Fate's arguments, but this is stretching.

To end this wall, I'll reiterate:
If you nuke someone and don't have the support of the town (that is to say, you can't point to at least half the players' assertions that X is/may be scum), I will do everything I can to secure your lynch.

[AurorusVox]

Percy:
- What if that person presents a very good argument for why they think their target is scum, that you happen to agree with, but half the town disagree with; do you then go after their lynch?
- Do you, in any scenario of agreement, try to lynch this person above other people who may have made other scumslips not related to nuking other players?
- What do you make of the argument that VIs and uncaring townies are likelier to nuke sans sanctions, and that scum are likely to do the opposite?

[Toogeloo]

We could have half a dozen people with nukes every day in DEFCON 1. Do we restrict people on their nuke use?

[Percy]

- What if that person presents a very good argument for why they think their target is scum, that you happen to agree with, but half the town disagree with; do you then go after their lynch?

This hypothetical is too vague for me. If there are good arguments put forward for nuking and none for not-nuking, then probably not. If there is violent disagreement directed against myself and the nuker, then probably.
I think your question boils down to, would I put my reads or the plan first? And the answer to that cannot be divorced from the success of the plan up until then. If everyone is ignoring me, then of course I'll ditch the plan in favour of my reads.
^This goes for your second one as well.

- What do you make of the argument that VIs and uncaring townies are likelier to nuke sans sanctions, and that scum are likely to do the opposite?

Hmm, weasel words here make me . I'd say that's the good old "2SCUM4SCUM" argument in fancy new purple tights.

We could have half a dozen people with nukes every day in DEFCON 1. Do we restrict people on their nuke use?

Er, what? We will have at least 7 players (I think) with nuclear silos when DEFCON 1 begins. And that last question - is it rhetorical? Huh?

[chesskid3]

Dana's an easy wagon. I don't like just how many people jumped on that ship, and it makes me see dana as more town.

[Toogeloo]

We could have half a dozen people with nukes every day in DEFCON 1. Do we restrict people on their nuke use?

Er, what? We will have at least 7 players (I think) with nuclear silos when DEFCON 1 begins. And that last question - is it rhetorical? Huh?

Read the Silo rule... you can launch once a day. So ... no, it wasn't rhetorical. We could have multiple nukers every day once we hit DEFCON 1.

[Bunnylover]

I can't wait for your "Chrisrage" you've taken to since playing on this site btw. You know what I am referring to. Break the Caps Lock, have an aneurysm, rupture a ulcer in your tummy... strike fear into all that you play with. You and I both know you can't work that kind of magic on me.

You were easy to manipulate in Day 1 of hypnotists because I used the meta of us knowing each other. Of course I had to kill you Night 1 for it as well. But don't pretend that I am intimidated by your play in any way... Let's not force you to break out that wallet of yours, m'kay?

o.o I'm not the only one who isn't afraid to go against Fate when he go into rage mode .

@Fate Post #533: The only post of Dana you made is that you said This is all you contribute? Other then that you have said nothing that has made him scummy this game other then his own meta. If both Town Toogeloo and Scum Toogeloo would do the same thing, why is doing something different make him scum?

@Katsuki: Your list I do not like. Dana, Chesskid, and Jed as scum. Those are what everyone is saying, so you posting that does not mean you are contributing with your reads. The town list is all those who have posted. Again nothing contributing

@Kitoari: Sorry I only have 8 post :<. Hard for me to voice my opinion when others are much more louder then I am in this game. I will try to change that.

@Kitoari Post #569: Fucking epic picture.

[Kitoari]

I really can not see what PANDAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA* is trying to do other than piss off fate at this point.
Percy upgraded to "Town!". I may not agree with everything he said but I do think he's town.
Gandalf5166 downgraded to slight scum. I missed the blatant AtE earlier (thanks, Percy!)

*Yes.

[Percy]

Read the Silo rule... you can launch once a day. So ... no, it wasn't rhetorical. We could have multiple nukers every day once we hit DEFCON 1.

I'm very familiar with the rules of this game.

Since it wasn't a rhetorical question, I'll answer: Yes.

What do you think?

[AlmasterGM]

[Day 1, DEFCON 4 - Announcement]

"Have you sent out the new assignments yet?"
"No, sir."
"What do you mean, 'no?'" Why the hell not?"
"There are still unsubmitted request forms. The system needs a full array of input data in order to run, which will take a while. Then the output needs to be approved ... and then I can send the notifications. It's going to take a bit of time."
"Well that's one thing we don't have, isn't it? Tell everyone to hurry the fuck up. Just because they're in charge of some big fancy toys now doesn't mean they can sit around on their asses all day and talk about shit over tea."
"Yes, sir, but to be fair, these things take time. Personal considerations and such..."
"Did my words fly right over your head? I want those forms and I want them NOW. Word's out from the big whigs in Washington that we're at DEFCON 4. And that could tank fast. I don't like the idea of being a sitting duck."
"Of course not, sir. I'll get right on it."

...

Deployment preferences are due in just over 24 hours. Late submissions will not be accepted. It will take a bit of time to calculate the results, so expect the deployment PMs to be distributed and DEFCON 3 to begin late Tuesday night (EST).

[Fate]

Woooo boi what happened here. I'll start from the bottom up:

Bunny way to oversimplify the case, what the fucks the matter with you people?

WHAT PART OF: HERP DERP DEFCON 4 IS WHEN THE MAGIC HAPPENS NOT DEFCON 5, AND THEN A SUBSEQUENT MAGIC POST OF DE-FENCE AND NOTHING ELSE IMPORTANT READS AS TOWN?

TO ANY OF YOU FUCKIN CLOWNS?

OH AND CHESSKIDS PRE-GAME "EASY LYNCH" DECLARATION IS JUST HERP UPON DERP. I GUESS THIS GUY NEEDS TO GO REREAD ALL THOSE GAMES I WAS IN WHERE SCUM CAN AND HAS BEEN LYNCHED D1 BECAUSE THEY WERE SCUMMY AND HOLY FUCK THEY FLIPPED SCUM.

[Fate]

It's not that he agreed with me... In fact, he *ahem* sat on the on the fence about it showing reason to believe in both sides, but not siding with either.

Ok this discussion needs stoppin now:

1. THERES ONE HALF-We see the intrinsic value of our own scumhunting and how getting X IS NOT Y SCUM is extremely beneficial in narrowing down reads further because we know how to make basic connections such as "X was obviously not scum with Z"

2. THERES DEVILS

AVOCADOFUCKHOOPLA

ADVOCATE SIDE- Copos can't copos a full clear and I'm paranoid and crazy someonescum will get half cleared and coast like its 1958 and the coastguard is patrollin the borders. Plus I like eating bamboo and keeping shit out of scums hands more than getting cool gadgets for town

CAPICHEY?

Now back to chesskid who hasn't responded to my LATEST EXPLOITS:

Vote: Chesskid

Oh this is just perfect. I thought my stance was pretty clear the way I was leaning I was just posting to say :WE GET IT YOU TWO DISAGRE EON THEORY MOVE ON: not to fence sit on a set-up issue.

But thats the bonus fucking point:

You call me out on fence sitting over a SETUP situation, ROLE CHOICE, MAFIA THEORY, etc.

I call you out for fence sitting on a PLAYERS ALIGNMENT AND THEIR PLAY IN THIS GAME.

Which ones scummier? Oh and if you STILL are gonna sit there and say "Im not calling you scum fate tee hee" we can have more words.

The fact of the matter is that its almost better to have town's "ideal role choices" in MULTIPLE shades of grey than out in the open black and white to prevent scum co-ordination, UNLIKE scum reads which better be out in the open and black and white.

Youve reversed the two for a goddamned scum pie.

[Bunnylover]

@Fate: I am not saying Dana is town. I am saying that I am not going to policy lynch him based on previous games, which is what you practically want to do. I am also saying what you have pointed out of what Dana has done does not scream OMFG THIS GUY IS SO FUCKING SCUM LYNCH NOW! I do find it weird like you pointed out what is the difference between Decon five and four, but I don't find it scummy.

[Baby Spice]

Missed a day or two due to illness, and likely to miss a couple more.

V/LA

[SpyreX]

I have about 14 Neutral reads in this game right now, 2 reads I think are scum, and 3 reads I think are town. Anyone want to one up me and say that they have more reads than that?

Yea, I do. I've even posted about a chunk of them. I think it'd be more than a one up.

I can't help the fact that the town doesn't want to pursue the best course of action even though they should; I can only accept that they won't. Just because you "knew it all along" because its your world view doesn't lessen the value of the best course.

The scum want your worldview to prevail, why do you think its so popular? Its because you have full scum support buddy. So don't give yourself too much credit.

Ahh, yes, the unified scum theory. Well played.

BAD scum may want my worldview to prevail. But, hey, thats ok because they also get roped.

And, this is pretty sweet skating from the simple fact you went from "THIS IS THE TOWNIEST TOWN TOWN WAY TO PLAY" to "I AM NUKING GANDALF AS SOON AS I CAN"

----

And JED AND TOOG TALKIN ABOUT PERCY? OHH SNAP.

See, funny thing is Percy and I can have totally different viewpoints on what the right path is but that doesn't change him bein town.

(and you two being scum but I digress).

----

D1 and D2 last game were megaclusterfucks. D1 was a good lynch gone horribly wrong with Els flipping doc. D2 was HORRIBLE due Andriusgate. That was one of the worst days I have ever lived through with 3 Town PRs outing themselves. @.@. Things were way too chaotic last game due to people believing in their own results a little too much. See why I'm trying to get some order around here?

Psh. You are right but that still had nothing to do with nukes. Only one thing can stop madness like that. Not drinking the bad water.
Hell, nukes may have HELPED it.

Yes, and no. UNCONTROLLED GUT nukes might also kill protown people playing a good game. Scare scum shitless? Sure! Might hit awesome Townies doing a good job leading Town? Yeah.

I have thought of a better compromise though, through RedC's quote above. See if you agree Spy.

Early game, when isn't much danger. Some freedom with the nukes might be awesome. Might get some good gut shots etc. However once it starts getting close to LyLo... THEN we start upholding Martial Law. No idiots risking Town loss by killing people who could be important. Should work like real wartime, eh?

Well, see, we keep coming back to this weird issue from the 'law'.

Not being a second "lynch" != no accountability.

Early game if someone throws a nuke at me and gets 4 or 5 people going BAD IDEA and persists, welp, they gotta go.
http://mafiascum.net/forum/posting.php? ... =3&t=15795
"OHH NOES THEY MIGHT BE TOWNS THOUGH"

And? If someone is that bull-stubborn they've gotta go and its better than wasting a damn lynch on it.

As it sits, if I could, I'd throw a nuke at Jed. Would that -really- mean that if he was town someone would throw a nuke back and then this secret madness world you guys keep talkin about? Probably not.

If it did? Welp, QQ because it would have been a loss anyways.

(And, yea, I didn't even think that "throwing nukes around at lylo unless its the ultra-gamble is a REAL BAD IDEA" even needed to be talked about - as its right up there with "dont vote at lylo sillynannies")

I'll repeat this because it is important:

Accountability != consensus != accountability.

Every post sets up accountability. If I were to nuke Fate right now I'd get killed for it. As I SHOULD.
If I were to nuke Jed right now it shouldn't be much of a surprise (and, unlike Kit's business DONT BE SILLY and go "Ohh, Jed-scum means SpyreX-town" because you KNOW I'd throw this down if I was the other scums. I'm town because I'm town and awesome.)

[Fate]

oooooh Spy.

If this is you on dem tiny button access then I can't WAIT to see your Panda case.


Might just be the straw that breaks the dam of sheeping Hoovers.

[RedCoyote]

Toogeloo, Jed, can y'all try to organize your thoughts a bit more clearly? I already got on Fate about it and he took a step back, but both of you two have, if anything, amped it up. I appreciate activity, but there's no reason for overkill. Toogeloo, you have 88 posts, and JC has a whopping 137. There's no reason for one player in a 20 player game to have nearly a quarter of the game's posts by himself. If anything just take it as general considerate gameplay advice. I'm not trying to lecture, just explaining that this is definitely putting me off from the game a bit. I'm used to inflated activity given that I average about a post a day, so when even I have to take a step back, it's getting out of hand. Controversial opinions or no, you don't have to make several consecutive posts. That's just overdoing it. It's not all JC's doing, or Toogeloo's, but you two are the worst offenders. Just take a step back before you hit submit and ask yourself, one, if it really requires a separate post to be said right then and there, and two, if you can't start combining your thoughts more clearly.

I'm really starting to think IS is laying it on too thick. I think either Kitorai or Kat mentioned this already, and I agree with whoever did. I don't know if that necessarily means scum (Spyrex loves it when I use qualifiers), but it's definitely leaving a negative impression right now. I mean, how many times do I have to hear, "wow can't wait for nukes! I'ma nukin' right away!" before it's too many? It was cute at first, but it's also getting annoying and try-hardish.

[SpyreX]

This is the wife's tiny buttons which are stronger and more braver than the phone's tiny buttons BUT STILL.

His case requires a LOT of quotes and words on my part. Because there is:
The

tiered

list which is followed up not long after with "silos should be the lowest pick for all americans" (and, of course, the nature of that list).
Coming out pro-nuke but then referring to the 'rebels'.
The QUOTED "scum-hunting" business (I REALLY need to look in detail what is going on around there because my gut says that is a snipe at people wanting dana dead which would be HOO NELLY)
The slipperiest of slopes with (while bad) the 'lawyers' going "A NUKES B NUKES C" to "Lets control ALL THE PRS"
And, of course, COP-GATE. Which the more I think about it makes me itchy all over.

And this is all before Fate-dancing time which is its own ball of wax and now the multiple "I've got reads I promise yo".

AND this doesn't include the thing that gave me the pure death: the dissonance in his list 'denying the scum toys' and later 'scum aren't going to want to deny us toys'.

(This should serve as a good set of notes for myself too)

[SpyreX]

And I do agree with you to some degree that the 'role' part of it is a little greasy but he IS actually saying things that lay out enough that I'm <3 with him for now RC.

And you and your qualifiers. FFFF

[Jed Cooper]

Welcome back Percy and grats on your anniversary.

Great content from all during the time I was gone. Looking forward to digesting it.

Sending in my choices now in case I miss the deadline (Oh, they won't be 1-10 Silo -- in fact Silo will appear nowhere on the list (duh)).

Thanks for the advice RC you of course are correct. I do try to put as much relevant content in my posts as I can however and I appreciate it when others do so as well.

Peace out while I begin work and scan what I've missed.

PS I will try to do a wall post instead of inidividual replies to important stuff since you brough it up RC.

[AurorusVox]

Jed: you do realise that putting Silo on your list is a viable option - i.e. if you want it in DEFENSIVE mode - right? I'm not sure how seriously to take this apparent ignorance; as in, I'm wondering if you were hoping that by hammering people over the head with the idea that there's no point in putting it on the list, you then wouldn't have to worry about your own scum-hoping-for-sub nukes getting shot down. I'm aware that's a bit of a wacky theory but what makes it less wacky is the fact that if you were part of a scumteam who all put Sub as their #1 choice, your "no unsanctioned nukes, control all nukes" strategy works well if you get the sub and can fire with no accountability.

[Faraday]

Dana's an easy wagon. I don't like just how many people jumped on that ship, and it makes me see dana as more town.

How does this work with multiscum though?

I've had plenty of experiences where the player jumped was actually scum, see Mipe in Cult of Dark And Shadow for the best example of an idiot* who's scum.

*Nice guy though.