Zachtown in the mountains (Game over TOWN WINS!)

Nul · Post Post #1200 (ISO) » Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:17 am

The reason y i was sayinv no reply was because i typed it up an hr ago

ol its really anoying to type im going sleep, still expecting a logical defense from sotty7

Sotty7 · Post Post #1201 (ISO) » Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:18 am

You'll be waiting a long time.

Do the game a favor and go to sleep.

Nul · Post Post #1202 (ISO) » Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:21 am

Ok i misread jasons post

lol scratch wat i was sayinv b4

Nul · Post Post #1203 (ISO) » Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:26 am

Sotty7 wrote:You'll be waiting a long time.

Do the game a favor and go to sleep.

I dont really know wat to say to this lol
r u being aggressive cos im suspecting u or just trying to make me look stupid so ppl wont take note of my argument?
Either ways ur not helping town and shuld at least defend urself since i took the time to analyse this entire thread in 3 day

Sotty7 · Post Post #1204 (ISO) » Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:51 am

Well Nul to be honest, you already look stupid. You don't need my help in doing that. I'm having a hard time taking you seriously when you get so many little things wrong on top of your case being a big pile of horse crap.

In every post it lists my gender and my join date. So you call me a dude for a couple of post, meh lots of people do that and it doesn't bother me, it just means you didn't look at my posting profile. But then you say I have been playing for two years? That implies that you actively took a look under my name, under my little pic with the guy pretending to hold the sun AND STILL GOT IT WRONG! Yeah, I might not have nifty title under name, I might not be the biggest presence on the site, my name isn't in a funky different color but I have been here for awhile, I don't see how you could have misread that. Even if you mistook me for someone else your creditability takes a hit, I'm not sure how you could do that when everyone here has avatars (bar benmage) I mean what the hell?

Your case is built of completely crap premises that I disagree with. Being scum is freaking subjective, to say there are hard and fast rules is just wrong. Yeah, some scum will fit in your little neat boxes, but not everyone will. My wiki is up to date, check out my scum meta if you want then get back to me about lurking, lack of buddy interactions and not bandwagoning with my scum buddies. Lets not forget that your scum rules work just as well for people like Kscope and Percy but you brush that under the rug. The first ten pages of a game aren't any more important that the last ten pages, so for you to try and wipe out all my good work with Babyspice because it didn't happen till later is just really really.... Silly.

Right now I am ISOing Mina, like I said I would do, I am not going to respond to you until I ISO your slot which won't happen for a long time. So if your waiting for me, don't. When I said "do the game a favor" I meant it. You are currently spamming the thread with posts that are of little help making it harder for everyone to read. On top of that you are using txt speak which is a big pet peeve of mine so I am starting to lose my patience, which really takes a freaking lot.

....So yeah, go to bed. Stop posting. Please. I will get to you in time.

Thor665 · Post Post #1205 (ISO) » Thu Dec 09, 2010 4:10 am

@Sotty - feel free to zap his case, as it is silly, but lay off frustration about whether or not he did the math for your join date correctly. There is zero scum advantage for him to misrepresent it so all you've found is he's a little loose and sloppy - and sadly that's not a scumtell.

@Null - I will repeat - your case is made, please stop repeating it ad nauseum.

@furc - jason is town, you also can please stop.

@Mina - how's the Percy case/questions going?

Sotty7 · Post Post #1206 (ISO) » Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:42 am

I think I just got out of bed on the wrong side this morning, Nul just managed to push all my buttons. Apologies, flowers, cookies... Whatever needed. I probably over reacted but seriously. This is a reading game, one or two mistakes I'm gonna forgive, but Nul's posts are littered with them. I got frustrated.

Nul, I just want you to take a chill pill and READ everything, including your own posts, before hitting submit. Sorry for the rant.

ISO reading abandoned so I can respond to the case some more and basically what has been posted since my last substantive post.

EDIT: I decided to make two separate posts. The first is commentary on the latest going ons that is isn't Nul. The second will be me defending myself from the case.

= = = = = = =

Percy Post 1156 wrote:
@Sotty7
: What is your read on Thor?

Likely scum. I think my vote is going on either him or Mina once I finish reading. I'm also flattered about the several nice things you have said about me in this game even if I think they are slightly off the mark. I understand why you would want to lynch me as far as a gut check goes at least. I just feel it is a little unfair, but you probably don't want to hear that from me.

= = = = = =

Benmage Post 1157 wrote:
Percy wrote:
@Sotty7
: What is your read on Thor?
Sotty, why aren't you voting/voting thor?

Voting/voting?

Because I'm trying to figure out who are last scum is between Mina and Thor atm. I really wanted to OMGUS vote Nul, but I am starting to think his case is too bad and ballsy to be scum. Elmo's lurkiness could just been because of his disinterest with the game since he replaced out. Still I need a closer look. I'm trying not to slack off today, it is very tempting to just go with the flow and vote for Mina just to wagon or whatever.

= = = = =

Furcolow Post 1174 wrote:This is a wagon on scum.
Scum died from this wagon.
This point is NOT crucial, as the scum on the wagon did not know they were wagonning scum.
AGar and Vezokpiraka are the scum on the wagon on Mothrax, who was scum.
AGar and Vezokpiraka knew they were scum together. Mothrax was scum with Sociopath. They were on the same team, not knowing who the two partners were individually (my interpretation, it might be wrong, i'm not perfect).

I believe all the scum knew everyone at that point, we combined the QT's very early. I'm sure before that lynch. But the rest of your points in this post are spot on.

I'm pretty sure furc v jason is town on town. Lets be more productive people.

Sotty7 · Post Post #1207 (ISO) » Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:50 am

Nul Post 1158 wrote:
Sotty7 wrote:And yet I am on every page bar five and six, with multiple posts for the most part.
Scums lurking is usually due to their inexperience but seeing as you've been playing this game for 2 years and have 3500 posts, I'd guess you would know how to type alot and still appear townie.

Sometimes I do. That's not the case in this game however.

Nul Post 1158 wrote:You can see here Percy answering a question from mongoose at a very early stage in the game; page 3.
One of my scumtell theories is that scums will try as much as possible to not make contact with each other during the early stage of the game, say pages 1-5. I think that if Percy was scum, he would of let someone else answer the question.

That's Percy talking to mongoose. I thought your premise was that mongoose never mentioned people not the other way round? Percy would probably also fall under the group of players that could “type a lot but still look town”

Nul Post 1158 wrote:This is Dry-fit's second post and thus has reduced the probability of Kscope being scum on my list.

You don't believe in bussing?

Nul Post 1158 wrote:As for Elmo, I didn't even analyze any of his posts.

And I don't really expect you to seeing as you replace him. Still, the fact you find me scummy for the same thing that your slot has done is baffling to me. Either you are tunneled in a insane way, or you are trying to tell us all something.

Nul Post 1158 wrote:
Sotty7 wrote:This trend is just bogus. Scums will totally bandwagon with each other.
Well, you can quite clearly see that Dry-fit and Mongoose never once voted or FOS'd for the same people.

Look if you don't believe me, pick any random complete mafia game, for example:
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... &start=100
The scums in this game are Empking, volkan and Tenchi, yet you see the following voting pattern.

I might buy the random bit if you had a decent survey size, but you don't. I guess I should do some leg work and link you some of my scum games.

Hydra mafia

I'm in the Chimaira account, scum with TomandJerry and Faranor

Spoiler:

Ladies night

I'm scum with Hoopla and Sucrose (who later becomes DizzyLizzy)

Spoiler:

Mafiaphoes!

I'm scum with Super Smash Bros. Fan and vezokpiraka

Spoiler:

Those are just my last three scum games. I'm sure there is more and I am sure I am not the only scum that does this.

Is this enough for you to drop this as a scum tell? Wagon analysis is one thing, but you are just stretching your supposed scum tells to fit your vote. It doesn't work, it's broken.

Nul Post 1158 wrote:Ok, here are the reasons I think you are scum:
1. You have no interactions with Dry-fit and Mongoose during the early stage of the game (page 1-5) thus proving point 2 of my list of scum trends.
2. Your suspects are always different to your mafia partners. Point 3 of my list of trends and as I just shown above, this is a recurring theme that scums generally do.

Well I agree that Percy has a probability of being scum but you are just the highest on my list right now.

1]Neither does Percy or KScope
2]Busted premise.

You have no leg to stand on with this case.

Nul Post 1160 wrote:Point three usually only occurs during the early stages of the game btw.

Convenient. I include some early game VCs up there. Also you are going to have to explain your obsession with the first ten pages.

Nul Post 1161 wrote:Well I already explained why I think benmage, Mina and Kscope are innocent. But in case you didn't catch it, here it is again:

They made contact with the scums or the scums made contact with them during the early stage of the game.

Don't believe me? Go read through pages 1-10.

And I don't buy this arbitrary ten page crap.

Also that quote where mongoose talks about me? Yeah, it's on page ten.

Nul Post 1161 wrote:And again I already explained why Kscope is low on my suspect list. He mentions the scums several times during the early game and Dry-fit's second post was directed at Kscope. Let's repeat that again. SECOND POST. How many times do I have to repeat lol. I thought I already wrote the reason on my first post but fine
I'll quote it again for you since you're apparently a girl

Bold, not impressed.

As for the rest you can't just chop and change it when you see fit. You were pushing the Dry Fit/moongoose side of interactions when you started this case. You apparently didn't care about the other side until it helps you.

Nul Post 1161 wrote:Well that may be because I'm not good at structuring arguments but the posts mainly revolves around the idea of my third point; the early relationship of the scums.

Has nothing to do with structure and everything to do with content.

Nul Post 1161 wrote:And where in those posts did Locke say you were town? All he did was made a logical case against Mina in those posts you've linked which I don't entirely agree with.
The reason I think Locke was killed is because he sounded like he actually knew what he was doing with all his post analysis and big words; i.e. the smartest in the game.
Which is a obvious choice for scum to kill in the case that he puts a logical case against you later in the game.

Big words = intelligence eh?

Locke was killed because he was all but confirmed. It is as simple as that. He was never going to be lynched and people were listening to him. In my opinion he thought I was town. But sure, you can keep ignoring that if it makes you case work better for you.

Nul Post 1163 wrote:So right now my list of scums look like this:
1. sotty7 75% of being scum
2. percy 32% of being scum
3. I am Innocent 29% of being scum
4. thor 26% of being scum
5. jason 5%
6. benmage 4%
7. furcolow 4%
8. mina 2%

These numbers mean nothing because you pulled them out of your ass.

32% really? How did you come up with this?

Nul Post 1169 wrote:After rereading the thread, I would also like to add that something about sotty's defense sound really fishy.

Like how he's trying to divert attention by pushing the suspicion on other people such as this comment:
Sotty7 wrote:So another premise of yours busted. Why isn't KScope getting more heat? He seems to check all the boxes I do, why are you glossing over him?
I don't know about you guys but his defense seems to be shouting something along the lines of: "Look at X and Y! I'm innocent! Stop paying attention to me! Yes, look at X and Y!"

Looks like sotty's just dug himself an even bigger hole.

/Faceplam.

What do you expect me to say? Your case is flawed, I'm not the only one saying this. You are building it off a shakey foundation and it is falling down around your ears. While everyone else is running out of the building screaming you are standing in the middle of it with a crazed look on your face saying “I'm gonna live here FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE!!”

Elmo come back, all is forgiven.

Thor665 · Post Post #1208 (ISO) » Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:15 am

Sotty7 wrote:Because I'm trying to figure out who are last scum is between Mina and Thor atm.

We've got two lynches available last I checked. How about we lynch Mina - if she's not scum I'll probably be fine being lynched next because I'll have no clue who is.

Zachrulez · Post Post #1209 (ISO) » Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:26 am

2nd Vote count of Day 3 Phase 1:

Mina - 3 (Benmage, Thor665, Percy)
Percy - 2 (KaleiÐoscøpe, I Am Innocent)
Sotty7 - 1 (Nul)
JasonT1981 - 1 (Furcolow)

Not Voting: (Sotty7, Mina, JasonT1981)

With 10 alive it's 6 to lynch.

Deadline for both phases of day 3 is Monday December 27th at 11am CST.

jasonT1981 · Post Post #1210 (ISO) » Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:33 am

Zach, i unvoted Fur

Zachrulez · Post Post #1211 (ISO) » Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:38 am

Reminder about general rule 9.

Zachrulez wrote:9.
This is my color, don't use it.

Mina · Post Post #1212 (ISO) » Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:10 am

0_0

Wow. Nul is...wow.

Percy, I told you it was coming, but there was no point wasting my breath when Empking was going to be hammered any moment and the game might end. Also, this took me hours and hours to write. Just wondering, do you see a scum motivation for the delay? Or are you just really, really curious to know what I think of you?

Fine, I'll save the soul-crushing meta analysis spreadsheet of DF/mongoose/BS I was working on for later and pay attention to you first.

I saved what I had of my post, but this is kind of schizoid in tone. When I wrote part of this a week ago, I was really caught up in the moment and aggressive and upping the rhetoric. But since then, much of the wind has gone out of my sails, and I've lost my conviction. I keep wondering if I'm "jumping at shadows," to quote Percy.

I had a brief moment of paranoia after BS accused her of bussing and Sotty linked me and Elmo to BS before the flip...but I feel quite strongly on gut that Sotty isn't scum. Now that Hydra Mafia is over, I can say that I noticed a huge difference between her interactions with me in this game and in the latter, which was part of what made me suspicious of her slot there. She's just much more proactive and passionate, she thinks things over, and she shows a nuanced thought process. Actually, I'm more suspicious of jason (who STILL HASN'T ANSWERED MY QUESTIONS GODDAMMIT) than I am of Sotty.

But speaking of which, what happened to this:

Percy wrote:I think Sotty is prob town after the flip. Unless it gets to LyLo and things are very confusing, I won't be making my promised case against her.

Percy wrote:Of course they all have a chance of being scum. The burden of proof rests with you, not me. I think they have less of a chance of being scum than other players; a scum continuum from least to most likely would look like <jason, Benmage, Locke, Sotty, Thor, IAI, Furcolow

So now Sotty is your second suspect if I flip town? What happened to Thor, IAI, and Furcolow? Or hell, Kaleidoscope or Nul?

Percy wrote:I still don't know whether you think I'm scum. Your behaviour yesterday with all the "trap" talk was very confusing.

Confusing = scummy? Please elaborate. And you still never answered this:

Mina wrote:Percy. You really cannot see what town-Mina's motivation would be for suggesting that plan? And you really cannot see what scum-Percy's would be for behaving the way you did toward it? I see dissonance between "a plan that is only bad if you think I'm not scum" and "me being scummy for pushing a bad plan." Your explanation of you not thinking we'd follow through with it would have been plausible had you said that at the time. Instead, you tried to imply it was scummy in the first place for pushing speedlynches.

========================================================================
When Percy fell for my "trap," I did seriously consider changing my vote, simply because my visceral reaction was so negative. If Empking had not been actively scummy and unhelpful, and were I a much more impulsive player, maybe I might have done it. Then Elmo came out with an

even worse

answer to my speedlynch plan, and then I started rereading Percy's ISO, finding townish stuff there, and second-guessing myself. The honest answer is that I really don't know if Percy is scum anymore. I keep waffling on whether I should vote him or Nul or some random person or just roll over and die and let more competent players sort it out in endgame. You're definitely one of the few left in the dwindling suspect pool. But right now, I'm trying to find a needle in a haystack, and every player has done at least one thing that suggests that he's town.

Percy wrote:Hey Mina,

I don't understand how you can at once say:
Mina 1037 wrote:Yes, I look like their buddy by process of elimination.
...while at the same time say:
Mina 1037 wrote:Is it just that Locke's case is nicely formatted?
Your defence is, essentially, that you're too scummy for scum, and that if you were actually acum with Dry-fit and Baby Spice you would have done a better job of keeping them alive. It is really that surprising that I like this case?

That's my defence against the

connections

part of Locke's case. I can defend my play, but not against coincidental comments that make me look terrible after a scum flip. But sadly, it's the truth that I'd have played differently at certain points as scum. Everyone will notice someone coming out and saying, "Oh my God, why are you lynching Baby Spice when you don't suspect her! Unvote, you idiot, UNVOTE!" "Hmm, that DF is being wagoned. Interesting. Maybe I should reread him." At least the former has scum motivation, since I might have been desperate to save Baby Spice, panicked, and overreacted. But the latter is a statement that doesn't protect Dry-Fit or make myself look better by distancing myself from him. It's just going out of my way to link myself to him, and screaming from the rooftop, "Hey, look at my wishy-washy opinion on DF! I'm his buddy!" And unfortunately, that argument is pure WIFOM, which is why I accept that I belong on the lynch list by PoE. It's just annoying to actually

be

too scummy to be scum. <_<

Actually, come to think of it, I can think of one point in my defence. I'll be honest and say I disagree with Furc's assessment of me vs. DF--I definitely would have asked DF a token question or two as scum. I'd argue my early vote and pressuring of mongoose makes me less likely to be scum, but

maybe

I might have done that as distancing. But considering how ineptly mongoose handled DF's wagon, mongoose's early interactions with me (trying to appease me, being relieved that I unvoted and called him Bambi) are not how I think he'd react were we actually scumbuddies.

Somehow, I doubt everyone will mass-unvote now, though.

And the fact that it is very nicely put together doesn't mean I'm somehow blinded by the quote boxes. WTF? I know you've been upset that I haven't been pressuring people enough (which is laughable, given that the Baby Spice wagon would never have happened without me), but I've decided that it's you who needs the pressure right now. I'm sorry you didn't see this coming and counted me a close ally, but I think you're probably our last scum, and lynching you will win us the game.

I explain more of why I disliked your vote below.

I think Sotty and

possibly

Thor (still haven't reread him) both deserve as much of the credit for the BS lynch. Furthermore, not only do I dislike you trying to milk your BS vote for town cred when you were the one arguing you heavily bus as scum, but you're missing the point. (In all fairness, when I'm rereading your ISO, I'm not sure the lack of pressure accusation is accurate, since you do interact with players on D1. It's mainly that I find it easier as scum to write a long post in which I make a case on someone else rather than getting into a back-and-forth, and I found that you seemed prone to making long posts commenting on other events rather than making events happen themselves.) Maybe my problem is that you didn't

interact

with Baby Spice much. All your posts on her are directed at the town.

Also, I didn't like the tone of your "I'm sorry you didn't see this coming and counted me as a close ally." Do you honestly believe this?

Remember this?
Mina 653 wrote:Like, there is no way that Baby Spice and Percy are scumbuddies, for example. Not just because Percy's throwing her under a bus--because he's throwing her under a bus at the same time that she's been kissing up to him and calling him obvtown all game.
Or this?
Mina 924 wrote:Okay, if anyone dares to vote for Percy
now
, I'm reaching through the computer monitor and strangling you.
But now you're saying:
Mina 1037 wrote:But I'd like to check Baby Spice's past games and see if she's the type to kiss up to a scumbuddy (which would help my reads of Elmo and Percy).

...

Oh, yeah. In case you aren't following, I want you lynched before Furcolow (who I've done a 180 on and I think is probably town, both because of mongoose's interactions and because of his reactions to Benmage's vote.) I think you're just the person who'd want to sacrifice your buddy for town cred given your terrible position. (Logically, it would also make sense for Thor, but he really feels townish to me.)
This is a gobsmackingly scummy reaction from you. You've turned about your (extremely sensible) read just because I voted you? Add in the patronising comment and I think we have a scum Mina on our hands for sure.

Leaving aside that OMGUS and being patronizing aren't scumtells (and thanks for reminding me that if you're scum, you've been laughing your ass off at me in your QT all game

)...a lot of posts happened between them, even though I didn't get a chance to respond. Fine, here's the evolution from thinking you were town to "whatever this is":

My visceral reaction to the lynch was relief that the kneejerk anti-Percy brigade would stop whining once and for all, because there was firm evidence in his favour.

Afterward, I started having doubts. Your first posts out of the gates were, "Look how town this makes me look, and I can't believe you idiots are

still

wagoning me." You were really trying to maximize the town credit that you deserve for lynching Baby Spice, and it made me paranoid that your primary interest was trying to clear yourself from the suspect pool.

Then I started thinking it over. Let's say you were scum, and the breakaway leading wagon. That would be a great time to start an unlikely-to-take-off wagon against a buddy, particularly one who's a weaker player. Either you create distance after your death, you buy yourself town credit by sacrificing a useless buddy, or with any luck, it doesn't take off and you vote the other guy using the "self-preservation" excuse. I already said that it really seemed as though your initial vote for BS was more of an "okay, so this case and this case have been nullified...um, why not this player people accused of a scumslip?" (although I've just noticed that you mention suspecting Benmage less because of BS on D1P1, so maybe that wasn't fair). I was paranoid when you claimed to be convinced Red was town based on one paragraph, but then when you received an eleventh-hour reprieve, you never followed up on your promised post and didn't come back to defend him. And considering your position in the game, I really think you might have considered it a good strategic option to bus your remaining buddy as a desperate attempt to save yourself.

Furthermore, some of your play today has rubbed me the wrong way. It's very subtle and hard to put into words, and if I blink, I think I've imagined it. You're damn impossible to pin down as scum except with gut, and my gut is...um, iffy at best. For one thing, I take back my earlier assumption that it didn't feel like you were trying to manipulate us. Aside from the buddying thing, your responses to my early D2 suspicions felt as though, without outright insulting me, you were trying to make me feel silly for suspecting you. At first, it made me feel sheepish for coming forward with such nebulous suspicions. But on a reread, I had doubts. You didn't explain why you were buddying up to a null read. Instead of explaining your thought process, it felt as though you were turning it around on me, what with all the "..?" punctuation marks and the "Really, are you

sure

you think this?" vibes. I find that some really really good manipulators do this as scum.

Did all this make me want to vote for you, or even put you among my top suspects?

Not at all.

But I decided that you were more likely to be scum than some of the other players who'd pushed DF or BS. Therefore, since we had seven lynches, one of them should be you so as to be safe.

And I'll admit that your sudden suspicions of me made me a lot warier of you. What bothered me was that I'd felt as though you were trying to buddy up to me before. You kept on listing me as a neutral read, saying you were unsure of me, etc., but not

once

did you attack me head-on. Instead, you just kept on agreeing with throwaway comments I made and complimenting me on a read or a funny line. Like I said before, it gave me the feeling that you wanted to keep an ally on your side, but still leave yourself open to suspect me. When I called you on it, you dodged the issue of whether you suspected me, but said you can't help yourself, because my posts are sooooooo great. So then sudden turnaround to "Hmm, I never noticed this before, but you guys are

right

, and Mina is super scummy, and let's lynch her," set off a bell.

Seriously, you did not

once

wonder if I was Baby Spice's (your top suspect's) buddy, or have a concrete reason to suspect me, until Benmage made a one-liner voting for me? "Yeah, now that you mention it, Benmage, Mina

could

be BS's buddy who was AtE-ing. Actually, Locke, that case is fantastic, and I've suddenly changed my mind on her." Sotty had been calling me BS's buddy

before

the flip.

But up until you popped up and gave

exactly

the answer I'd expect from scum to a plan that would ensure his own as well as his suspect's lynch, I was only mildly paranoid of you. I thought it was Empking. You were on the lynch list mostly by process of elimination.

So bottom line, I can't clear you from the suspect pool. We had seven lynches. One of them should be used on you, because you're more likely to be scum than Furcolow is.

And note that I said I would check Baby Spice's meta to see if I can reconcile you or him being scum with my initial opinion that BS wouldn't have risked calling you obvtown. It's not as though my turnabout came out of nowhere. Because right now, my instincts are telling me that something doesn't fit about either your behaviour or Elmo's behaviour, so I want to reevaluate an assumption I've been making in both of your favours. Maybe BS is bolder than I'd thought.

(Besides, you were in

A Clash of Kings

Mafia. You know how often I've incorrectly cleared scum of being partners with their buddies. I'm trying to keep an open mind.)

You're like me when you get caught as scum; you get really mad that you haven't been caught for the right reasons

Well, this is interesting.

What are you talking about? Since the entire case on me is based on connections rather than my own behaviour, the "caught for the wrong reasons" tell would only apply if I'm on a second scum team. I've actually admitted that my interactions with the flipped scum look bad. So it's the opposite--I'm "framed for the right reasons." Please explain just what you mean by this.

But you realize just what you've implied, right? Because that explains

so

much about your behaviour this game.

Yeah, you've been wagoned for crap reasons. And you've got really, really pissed off about it as well. See, that's another thing that's been niggling at me. In

A Clash of Kings

Mafia, you got all annoyed at Drippereth in the Kingsguard QT and said you'd refuse to respond to her unless she provided a case on you. And then you did the exact same thing to the players who have been wagoning you this game. "Waaaaah, I refuse to interact with you unless you remove your votes from me."

While I still think the Empking slot has a better chance of being scum than most, I think yours has more. Trying to paint my vote on you as somehow betraying my case against the Empking slot is terribad.

I'll be honest--I think I might have confused Thor's "OMG, Empking is obvobvobvscum" posts with yours. Looking back, I remember this as being more emphatically anti-Empking than it was:

@Empking: You put BS as "The Scummy Side of Null" after asking Thor for the case against Baby Spice, which he provided. That was all you said about Baby Spice, no comment on it even though we were close to a lynch and BS turned out to be scum. Instead you wagonned me!

Mix in the case against Lrd and we have some tasty scum pudding. Nom.

But still, you piggyback on all of Thor's work at attacking him, and use lots of rhetoric ("tasty scum pudding"). You didn't once attack me, and consistently listed LW as your number two suspect. You have such a strong read on him, but the moment Locke makes his case, suddenly the caul is ripped from your eyes and you see the light? My problem was that rather than come to your own conclusion, it seemed as though

other players' posts

suddenly changed your mind. I discussed this above, but I still don't think your 180 looked organic. So I decided to pressure you on your vote and see how you'd justify yourself. And I

hated

your reaction.

Percy wrote:And rather than re-write Locke's excellent post, I'll quote the most relevant sentence:
Locke Lamora 1010 wrote:I think this displays a contradictory thought process because it's quite evident from every Mina post after her BS vote that she doesn't see BS as scum. She's always saying that she agrees with this point or that, or that she wouldn't miss BS too much, but when it comes down to it, she consistently takes the position that BS is a mislynch.

I didn't want to write a huge defence to Locke's post, so I'll just be brief and say that I don't see the contradiction. It was wishy-washiness, but not dissonance. I find weak players who argue ridiculous things impossible to read (I'm not sure what to make of Nul, either), and I can't tell the difference between misrepping and simply being an idiot. I could intellectually say, "Yeah, I guess I can see where she might have been setting up mislynches in this post," or "yeah, this is a stupid theory." And because she was so hard to read and useless, I really

wouldn't

have been that broken up about her lynch had she been town. But something about the lynch didn't sit right in my gut. Partly it was that I thought she was the always-scummy-looking type given what little I'd seen of her play, partly it was Benmage constantly calling her a town VI rubbing off on me, partly it was that I thought trying to trap someone was a towntell (although maybe in hindsight, I shouldn't have bought her excuse). I wasn't that confident that she would flip scum.

Also, I'm just curious. Why didn't you notice these contradictory thoughts of mine on Baby Spice until Locke pointed it out?

You know what? I was getting really caught up in my Percy=scum theory as I wrote this. And then I started ISO-ing him for examples, and doubted myself again. "But..but...he sounds so

reasonable

here! And here he really seems confident that he will flip town. And that was such an insightful question! And would scum be

that

bold?" But the beauty of it is that

it doesn't matter

. For once, I don't have to be right about something. Because you're dead either way.

Really, I want the takeaway of this post to be, "Do not give Percy a free pass, because he's still in the suspect pool." I'd just like the players who trust Percy to reread him with an open mind, particularly if the game goes on for another day. Percy is close to impossible to read, he's perfectly capable of looking warm and fuzzy and reeeeaaaaasooonaaaaaable as scum, and I think there have been a few warning signs with him.

So if you're town, then you'll win the game eventually. If you're scum, then you've just lost the game by process of elimination. You have no chance in hell of getting yourself out of this mess. Get over it.

===========================
Okay,

now

do you see why I kept putting that off?

jasonT1981 · Post Post #1213 (ISO) » Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:37 am

Mina, I must have missed your questions. what were they againso I can answer for you?

Benmage · Post Post #1214 (ISO) » Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:41 am

Gah Mina you kill me.. Percy isn't cleared.

Your ..... "case" is too late. You're aCoK references are too late.

And Nul ...... geeeeze. Tl/Dr everything

We don't need this kind of postage. We need lynching.

Nul · Post Post #1215 (ISO) » Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:35 am

Well if sotty does actually happen to be scum just remember i told you guys

unvote

no point pursuing this wagon now since you guys are so convinced that you won't even read my posts

will reread when i get back home and probably vote for percy

Nul · Post Post #1216 (ISO) » Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:51 am

@sotty: percy and kscope does actually have interactions with the scum , u were the last one at around pg 10

Mina · Post Post #1217 (ISO) » Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:15 pm

*winces* Oh my God.

I...I just copied and pasted the entire thing into a Word document. It topped

three thousand, five hundred words

(although that was including Percy's quotes). I am so sorry, everyone. Even I'd refuse to read that.

It'd be nice if a few players would step up their game right now and stop coasting. Too tired to post something substantial, but...

jason, I was referring to my questions in this post. Also, another one, while I'm at it. Percy was at four votes and Baby Spice was at three. Then you switched from Percy to Baby Spice, making it four for BS and one for Percy.

Obviously, that's a good thing. But can you just elaborate on what made you decide Baby Spice was a better lynch than Percy? Percy was your top suspect all day before then.

Benmage, what do you mean, "it's too late"? For me? For Percy? And what was the point of using disparaging fake-quotes to refer to my "case"--because it was more of an indecisive ramble than a case, or because you

didn't read it, just like you didn't read my Elmo case

disagree with it?

Maybe you want to speed through this, but this is almost certainly my last day in the game. I won't be around to get my thoughts out and make decisions in endgame. So sorry to break this to you, but I'm going to talk...and talk...and

talk

.

Besides, I still don't know who the last scum is.

More on Nul/Kaleidoscope/Percy/Thor later, when I'm not exhausted. Would like a response to Percy to my dissertation.

Also, it's annoying that everyone's ignoring my lynch list (seriously, Thor, jason, and Sotty are

not

scummier than Nul and Kaleidoscope--anyone remember him?).

Thor665 wrote:My vote for Mina would pretty much be
either sheeping Locke's case
, or for the reasons I noted in 1128 - and is probably a vague and uncertain combination of both. If she's scum, huzzah for our side, if she's town she has to go because we'll be having this debate before every single lynch otherwise.

Okay, maybe I can buy that you're willing to lynch me in spite of your D2 town read simply to remove a distraction or get information, although it's not an argument I'm a fan of. But what happened to this:

I've only ever played with Mina as town. She dithers as town. Unless she doesn't dither as scum (which I doubt) all that shows is dithering is a normal part of her meta and
is not the most optimal place to build a case and when I read Locke's case that's what I see - 'Mina didn't make solid commitments to reads'
.

It seemed that you didn't like Locke's case much at the time, but now you're listing it as one of your primary reasons for voting me.

Are you saying that yesterday, I was your number two suspect after Empking? So had Empking flipped town, you were fully intending to vote for me today--it was only that Empking looked so much scummier that I was townish by comparison?

Mina · Post Post #1218 (ISO) » Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:17 pm

EBWOP: "making it four for Baby Spice and

three for Percy

."

Thor665 · Post Post #1219 (ISO) » Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:04 pm

Mina wrote:Are you saying that yesterday, I was your number two suspect after Empking? So had Empking flipped town, you were fully intending to vote for me today--it was only that Empking looked so much scummier that I was townish by comparison?

That's basically true. I was convinced Emp was scum to the point I don't think I was even considering who my lynch preference after him was. Coming into today I probably could have gone Elmo, but there was so much furor about you and your only defenders were me and sorta Sotty which is not stopping a lynch, so I say lynch you and see where we're at. If you flip town I'd probably vaguely grunt at KScope as next, since I'm now back to town on Elmo/Nul. Frankly I think we're down to the last dregs here and I think whoever the scum is is very busted and it's just a matter of lynching the tiny handful of actual suspects we have

Benmage · Post Post #1220 (ISO) » Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:39 pm

Mina why aren't you voting.

jasonT1981 · Post Post #1221 (ISO) » Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:02 am

Mina wrote:.

jason, I was referring to my questions in this post. Also, another one, while I'm at it. Percy was at four votes and Baby Spice was at three. Then you switched from Percy to Baby Spice, making it four for BS and one for Percy.

Obviously, that's a good thing. But can you just elaborate on what made you decide Baby Spice was a better lynch than Percy? Percy was your top suspect all day before then.

Ok, yes I switched to BS from Percy.. I was sure at the time both were scum and I made numerous mentions of this throughout the game. I felt switching votes would still secure a scum lynch. alright now onto your questions I missed.

Mina wrote:
Speaking of which, can you answer this:
I'd also have liked to hear an answer, but Ben definitely isn't scum, jason. By your question, were you implying that you find it suspicious, or just a bad move?
and this:
Okay, I had a huge post typed up explaining what my motivation was for suggesting the speedlynch plan, but since you're online, might as well ask this first: jason, if the game doesn't end with Empking's lynch, would you agree with a speedlynch-Mina-Elmo-Percy-Kaleidoscope plan? What about lynching Mina, Elmo, Percy, and Kaleidoscope after lots and lots of discussion? Any objections?

1) Ben is scummy, my entire first post of today saying Fur was actually meant at Ben.. I don't know why but I keep getting the pair mixed up. I truely believe Ben is scum.. he has gone above Percy in my list of potentail final scum. I feel his hammer was opertunistic knowing he was hammering town, and an attempt to cut out discussion as I said before due to questions being on the table from yourself to Sotty.. cutting off discussion and getting answers is a scum game. He could have waited to hammer until questions were answered but I feel he saw the opertunity and took it with glee.

2) No, I object to all speed lynches.. forgive me but that plan sounds like something that Andrew comes up with. Still not 100% sure if town will win the game with speed lynches. I prefer lynch on evedience rather than policy speed lynches. If scum is not in that list, it lets them slide far to much without having to post much.

Anyway, I do find Ben scummy for his end of day 2 actions my origional vote on Fur today was meant to be Ben. I don't agree with Fur however I am sorry for the mistake in identity.

vote: Ben

jasonT1981 · Post Post #1222 (ISO) » Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:04 am

Benmage wrote:Mina why aren't you voting.

With everything that is going on, this is all Ben has to say on everything? Don't like this at all

jasonT1981 · Post Post #1223 (ISO) » Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:09 am

Interesting with conversation still going, end of day 2 with no lynch scene this is what Ben said

Benmage wrote:Yeah I was hoping Zach was still here.

very eager to get into night

Also, has posted nothing really substantial today (ok he says he is sick, I will give him sliht leeway on that) however most of his posts have consisted of asking why peopel are not voting or telling them they should vote.

Benmage wrote:Everyone not voting needs to place a vote.

Benmage wrote:
Percy wrote:
@Sotty7
: What is your read on Thor?
Sotty, why aren't you voting/voting thor?

Benmage wrote: We don't need this kind of postage. We need lynching.

Benmage wrote:Mina why aren't you voting.

He has made 5 posts today... 4 of which are about asking why people are not voting, or we need to lynch but has done very little himself to help the town find the last scum. I find it fishy

Benmage · Post Post #1224 (ISO) » Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:50 am

Hey Jason you have 0 chance of lynching me haha nana nana pew pew.

Go vote somewhere useful, scrub.