DEFCON Mafia 2.0 - Over, American Victory!

[Toogeloo]

/CONFIRM

...Katsuki already on the naughty list. Santa will probably be shot out of the sky with all the firepower this game is packing though!

[Toogeloo]

Don't get modkilled before even a quarter of the players have confirmed Kat >_>

[Toogeloo]

Hilarity will ensue if we get to DEFCON 1 with all the Silos intact

[Toogeloo]

You'll have me figured out by Day 2, I'm sure...

I should have "Baku" or "Pandaman" under my name... that'd be cool.

[Toogeloo]

Who is Baku? And why do you want them to be town O_o

Fate and I know each other from another site where we played Mafia. My tag there is "BakusaiTenketsu" (as you can see, I like my Ranma stuff), but everyone calls me Baku for short.

SpyreX, Katsuki, danakillsu, gandalf, and Fate were all in that game with me where I was scum and they were all town. I won and they are probably still rubbing their bums a bit over the whooping.

[Toogeloo]

My list of games on MS can be found in my Wiki... it's pretty short. I have a lot more games worth of experience though, since like I said, I play on another site as well.

[Toogeloo]

This first 72 hours of discussion should be fruitful... in theory. No one has a real role yet, just an alignment, and we don't have any lynches or night actions to worry about, so we can all just chit chat.

[Toogeloo]

(as you can see, I like my Ranma stuff), but everyone calls me Baku for short.

Ok, most important question of the game time.

Sub titled or dubbed?

/Confirmation by the way

I've watched both. I prefer dubbed simply because I am a multi-tasker and my Japanese is quite limited to survival only.

[Toogeloo]

nuke:bobsnoxious

for advertising in sig.

I don't have sigs up by default, so hopefully no one asks me to consider what they say.

[Toogeloo]

Well, you can't launch Nukes until we are in DEFCON 1... I think. But yeah, there are quite a few roles we want to make sure town get.

Americans will really want to prioritze the following (in my opinion):
-

Aircraft Carrier

is huge for Americans if we can get it. It's essentially ROLEBLOCKER, and would be a huge boon to us.
-

Battleship

is the DOCTOR of the game, and it stops nukes, so keeping it out of scum hands would be nice.
-

Submarine

would allow them to nuke any one without fear of exposing themselves once we get to DEFCON 1.
-

Fallout Shelter

would make it so the only kills they worry about are the other scum team night kills, meaning Americans can't nuke them.

These aren't as necessary, but can still be a detriment in scum hands. The problem with these is the limited use Americans get from them:
-

Fighter

is ROLE COP, it would give them an easier time identifying key power roles.
-

Espionage

is essentially COP. If scum gets the role, then they can just look for the opposing faction members with it.
-

Radar

is like TRACKER, but Scum Night Kills are untrackable, so it's only use is to detect people with Offensive Troops.
-

Fail Safe

is similar to BOMB, and scum would rarely like to trade 1 for 1, but a kill is still a kill. Americans are more likely to lose two town members I would bet.

These are powers Americans will really only make use of, and scum will likely not put them as priority at all, so we should probably make them low priority as well:
-

Eavesdrop

would only be used by scum to hear the other scum team or prevent a player from hearing their day talk.
-

Air Base

would only stop a kill from the opposing scum team.


This is just how I interpret the abilities, so if anyone disagrees with me, feel free to state your opinions.

[Toogeloo]

Scanning roles are bad for Americans unless you have a read on specific alignments, or plan to try and trap a player based on your scan.


-Fighter only tells you if the player has a Silo, Offense, or Defense. Players can be of any alignment and have these, so you would need to hold your info in hopes that you catch a player lying. But even then, that can backfire (like if the American with Submarine or Aircraft Carrier claims Silo to avoid outing himself). Taking this would be simply to deny scum from using it.

-Radar is similar to Fighter in that it doesn't give you alignment if you track someone to another player, and worse still, you cannot track the scum night kills, so you only get to identify (possibly trap) offensive power roles. Taking this would be simply to deny Scum from using it.

-Espionage is the only strong scanner of the 3 scanning roles in the game in my opinion. The problem for Americans using it is the "choose a faction" rule. We could target scum and scan them, but choose the wrong faction and get the scan wrong all together. Scum would only ever use it to scan for the opposite scum faction, so I don't think it would be high priority for them either. An American could double scan (2 night actions) the same player to know for sure their alignment though...

[Toogeloo]

Forgive me, I am not completely familiar with all of MS's acronyms. uh... IGMEOY?

[Toogeloo]

nm...wiki'd it.

[Toogeloo]

And Pandas are indigenous to China... oh, whoops!

[Toogeloo]

Are you serious? This ability is basically Bulletproof/Godfather ie. a SCARY ability for scum. It's

practically

made for scum.

Air Base:

Capable of deploying a wide variety of response aircraft within seconds and fortified to the brink, any infrastructure surrounding the air base becomes incredibly difficult to penetrate. {You are immune to all non-nuclear activated abilities

(this includes the Stealth Bomber)

.}

You are right, I misread it to kills only, but being untargetable except by nukes is a pretty big advantage for a scum member to have. I switch this up to the other 4 top priority abilities for Americans to get.

[Toogeloo]

That looks a lot like Mexicans to me...

[Toogeloo]

Claiming that you're looking forwards to your nuke is like claiming VT* at this stage. I reckon it's a good idea to not go around telling the scum whether we're looking to get a different PR or not.

*I understand nukers aren't VTs, but in terms of defaults...new basic line, you get my drift

It's all WIFOM anyways. Defcon 5 is funny like that >_>.

[Toogeloo]

We should pick someone by consensus who we believe is town to have them take one of the obviously pro-scum abilities.

We really shouldn't pick anyone to do anything. It should be trusted (and hoped upon) that everyone spreads out the choices. There are 10 total non-silo abilities, and I would extremely surprised if all the players chose the same ability for their first pick.

This is where WIFOM is actually useful. Implying what we plan to take and what we actually take is important in making sure the abilities get spread a bit. I doubt that all the best abilities are going all go to Americans, but at the same time, we can't encourage everyone to simply focus on a couple of them as the scum teams can stack up on the others to increase their odds of getting it.



Let's say for example that the two most discussed abilities, Submarine and Air Base, get split amongst 4 town each because we try to work it out that way. Well, not only do the scum players know that it's likely the roles are on those 4 players, but they can also stack their 3 members all on Battleship or Aircraft Carrier. Then we got 4 town and no scum on one ability, 4 town and no scum on another ability, and like 2 town and 3 scum on another ability, giving the odds to the scum that they will get that third role.

This also strikes me that it is more than plausible that all scum are going to stack identically for best chances at getting at least 1 or 2 abilities they want. So even if we stack 4 town on Submarine, they could stack all 3 scum on Submarine as well and get almost a 50% chance that one of their members will get it.



So in the end, it's best not to try and direct anything. Know what is important and every person personally hedges their bets where they hope to stop scum or play on their own accord. Directing anything will simply give scum more information than we want to afford them.

I would highly recommend all Americans to at least try to take an ability instead of a Silo though, as every American that can potentially stop a scum PR is better than less players trying to do so.

[Toogeloo]

Hmmm I see the merits now with the whole "SET UP ZE DEFENSES" aspect that I didn't think of.

There are two of each role though, max, right?

Toog'
s posts with the 4s and the 3s and the piling made my head hurt >_>

Only

one

instance of each activated and passive abilities exists. If multiple players desire the same ability, a randomization system will be used to distribute it. It is

highly

recommended that you send a list of multiple choices ranked by preference in case you do not receive your first choice. If you do not send me a preference by the time DEFCON 3 begins (either because you sent me nothing OR you sent only a single activated ability choice and you did not win it), a missile silo will automatically be deployed for you

Scum piling ensures greater odds of getting the role they want. If a 3 man scum team piles onto Sub, there is a semi-decent likelihood they will get it for someone on their team, amplified dramatically by how few Americans take sub first. This is only an example, and they may pile on to Air Base or Aircraft Carrier for all we know. That's why I was stating we should make sure all Americans at least try to put in for one of the better abilities, but not focus on discussing dispersion as to help WIFOM which skills are better or worse to pile onto. With luck, Americans will take most of the high priority roles.

[Toogeloo]

I must be one of the few people who actually likes IS atm btw. Play the crazy redneck card and possibly some WIFOM while you're at it.

[Toogeloo]

[quote="VasudeVa"]@Fate: One of each PR. Meaning, we get at most 10 PRs and at least 10 nukes(That's a lot of nukes, now that I think of it. >.>)./quote]If all 10 nukes, and the sub, live to DEFCON 1, I will be mighty impressed and I would call for nuclear winter.

[Toogeloo]

@Fate: One of each PR. Meaning, we get at most 10 PRs and at least 10 nukes(That's a lot of nukes, now that I think of it. >.>).

If all 10 nukes, and the sub, live to DEFCON 1, I will be mighty impressed and I would call for nuclear winter.

fix'd

[Toogeloo]

Fail Safe doesn't preclude it by the looks of it. It just says you launch if they launch...

[Toogeloo]

I must be one of the few people who actually likes IS atm btw. Play the crazy redneck card and possibly some WIFOM while you're at it.

You mean IS is townie to you or you like him as scum?

Townie... just a vibe I'm getting. Never played with the guy, so I could be wrong and giving him more credit than he deserves, but it just doesn't come off as logical scum play.

[Toogeloo]

Toog is as scummy as IS is town.

I'm not entirely sure if you are saying I am not scummy at all and you believe IS is absolutely scum, or vice versa, or if you are making some kind of claim that one of us must be scum...

[Toogeloo]

Radar is similar to Fighter in that it doesn't give you alignment if you track someone to another player, and worse still, you cannot track the scum night kills

MOD: Is this true?

Radar:

The night may be dark, but your radar screen is neon green. And it’s hard to miss stuff flashing in neon green. {I will inform you of who target player targets, if anyone.

Note: The Stealth Bomber is a shared activated ability and cannot be detected.

}

-----

That won't stop the rope tho. Its called Mafia and if you refuse to have the town guide ur vig, then u r one.

So what you are saying is that we will treat every nuke that isn't sanctioned as if it were fail safed?

[Toogeloo]

On the nuke subject, I don't find sanctioning our nukes as very productive. You wouldn't direct a Vigilante on who to kill every night would you?


I do love the "scum-hunting" that is going on btw. This is quite possibly the easiest phase to feign town since there is no consequence, and everyone is jumping all over the one person who sticks out like a sore thumb.

[Toogeloo]

How does someone following a town direction to kill prove alignment? If they are scum and town majority wants another town dead, did he just confirm himself when he shot the guy? Leaving individual kills to group consensus opens the avenue of allowing that kill to be manipulated by the informed minority. A little persuasion here, a little charisma there, next thing you know, you've got a vig controlled by the mafia.

[Toogeloo]

It sounds like you want to set up a chain. Town convinces a nuke to shoot another town, someone on the decision must have been scum, so we shoot/lynch him. Playing Mafia isn't that cut and dry, and town loses more games because they follow that mentality. You also have to consider the smarter players are going to be shot by scum by the time we get to DEFCON 1 to use nukes. Then you got a couple VIs running around shooting townies because scum told them to do so. Or you got a scum who acts very pro-town and shoots a town because the town told him to, and then he can easily place blame on another townie.

In my last game, I was viewed as pro-town even though I was scum, and I was able to manipulate players into lynching whomever I wanted in the waning days, and I was just one person. You get a scum team on the same page with a bunch of VIs, and you can get townies to start nuking each other at their discretion.


We are going to have rebels this game, and you can't control them either. A few players have already stated as much that they aren't going to be directed, so you have to trust they will make the right decision for town's benefit. Directing any form of town power is just as dangerous and could cause the player with the actual power to second guess their own reads and cause even more chaos than just letting a player control their own destiny.

[Toogeloo]

The person who launched the nuke can be held responsible, then we question them on why they chose their target and condemn if needed. Only 1 nuke in the entire game is hidden, everyone else will have to declare their nuke. It's not as if the "paper trail" disappears entirely.

Also, the town grain seems to be split in half if you look at the players for and against claiming.

[Toogeloo]

Also, the town grain seems to be split in half if you look at the players for and against claiming.

EBWOP: ended that sentence a little prematurely....

The town grain seems to be split in half if you look at the players for and against claiming

and directing [or being directed] town nukes.

[Toogeloo]

Just think, we still got another 108 hours or so of not being able to lay a single vote ^_^...

[Toogeloo]

when can we send in choices, btw?

72 hours ends Friday night, about 35 hours-ish from now. Then we get to start submitting choices for roles, with another 72 hours of "discussion."

[Toogeloo]

You gotta remember SpyreX, this COP works a bit different. You must name a faction not your own and the mod will tell you if your target is that faction or not.

In Town hands, we cannot scan for other Americans, we must choose Chinese or Russian. Well, if you scan a Chinese scum and ask if he's Russian, the mod is going to say he is not Russian. Now where do you go from there? Do you scan the same player again on the next night and ask if he's Chinese? What if there is a particularly scummy-acting player that is American, would you waste two scans to ensure you know his alignment?

[Toogeloo]

This thread so far makes me want to cry long and hard. Unlike the rest of you, I am willing to admit that this isn't going to go anywhere until DEFCON 4, and furthermore, I am willing to say that I will not even attempt to analyze this thread until DEFCON 4. So see you guys then.

I do love the "scum-hunting" that is going on btw. This is quite possibly the easiest phase to feign town since there is no consequence, and everyone is jumping all over the one person who sticks out like a sore thumb.

I do agree with you on the scum hunting thing myself dana, I just didn't say it as blatantly as you did lol. Still, I enjoy the conversation, since the more people talk, the more you have to use down the road. While this may not be the best phase of the game to scum hunt, you would be stupid to ignore it once we do get into the meat of the game.

[Toogeloo]

ARGH HULK SMASH

I'm fully aware of how it works. Even limited information (that sure as hell has the chance to become total information) is a good thing. A real good thing.

Especially once bodies start hitting the floor.

We will need one team entirely dead to ensure future scans as accurate with the role. It would be useful in end game, sure, but there can be a lot of wasted potential early game.

[Toogeloo]

I do agree with you on the scum hunting thing myself dana, I just didn't say it as blatantly as you did lol. Still, I enjoy the conversation, since the more people talk, the more you have to use down the road. While this may not be the best phase of the game to scum hunt, you would be stupid to ignore it once we do get into the meat of the game.

Scumhunting is one thing.

Townhunting is another thing.

PARTICIPATING IN A FUCKING GAME is another thing.

BUILDING EARLY READS AND STANCES AND HISTORY is quite another thing.

"Yo I'm not gonna take any stances so my options are as wide as the great wall of goddamn China" <- that's fuckin tech.


SO DONT go agreeing with scum there Baku.

If it helps, I have at least one strong town read already (note: it's not IS, but I do like him as probable town). I'm not ignoring the hunt, just not pressuring it yet.

[Toogeloo]

I see what you are getting at, but you may also notice that I jabbed at him. It wasn't a full agreeance, but rather I practically called him stupid if he planned on ignoring this stage of the game.

[Toogeloo]

I can't believe I'm having to argue thisssssssss. GOD

Yes, a bevy of investigations is more powerful late game.

That can't happen unless WE HAVE THE COP TO GET THERE.

Jesus if the cop forces one good lynch or stops one key bad lynch its worth it.

Well, I never stated the cop is bad >_> ... I just stated I could see less use from it than half the other roles, and that it could still be detrimental to let scum get it. It was (and still is) my opinion that it fell in the lesser of the 5 abilities we want to keep from scum's hands. If you want Cop, go for it bud ^_^.

[Toogeloo]

Plus I like eating bamboo and keeping shit out of scums hands more than getting cool gadgets for town

http://media.bigoo.ws/content/gif/bears/bears_193.gif

nom nom nom nom nom nom...

[Toogeloo]

"Getting useful roles" > "Stopping scum from BP/RB"

We can agree to disagree I suppose. Coming from a VT standpoint, I would much rather use my intuition than rely/hope for scum scans. If we get a condemning scan, cool beans, but gut and intuition rules my game play a bit more. I always assume worst case scenario that town is fudged and we either have no power or VIs have our best powers.

[Toogeloo]

I see you reading Katsuki. I miss you, and you should come in and talk about how you want to nuke me some more .

[Toogeloo]

Did someone say there'll be at least ten town nukes? There'll be at least ten itchy fingers.

Not necessarily town. Anyone who doesn't get Troops gets a nuke, so scum could control a few nukes themselves.

[Toogeloo]

I'm not gonna argue about it SpyreX ^_^

In your mind Town having a Cop is worth Scum having an unkillable/untargetable/roleblocker/whatever.

In my mind Scum not having toys is better than town having toys.


That is all.

[Toogeloo]

If we get Cop, awesome. Chances are we will because no scum is going to prioritize it anyways unless they really want to know who the other scum team is or deny us from getting it.

I'm saying it's low priority for us as well. There are other things I would rather deny the scum teams first, and they are going to want them as well. Cop is going to be one of those lesser contested roles I think, and it probably should remain that way.

[Toogeloo]

This isn't a "welp, opinion" kind of discussion I'm having right now. The more I look at your list the more paranoid I actually get. Especially when I look at your rationales.

Paranoid about what?

Do you have reason to state that Cop should be prioritized over highly prized scum roles? It will take minimal effort to get Espionage, Eavesdrop, Fail Safe, and probably Fighter for Americans. Scum are not going to covet these roles.

Make your priority list include them, but I would highly discourage putting them at the first position.

Scum will want protection roles first and foremost, and an undetectable day kill.


For the last time, I am not stating "don't put cop on your list." I am simply stating, put it lower tier than Doc, Roleblock, BP, Untargetable, and Assassin.


If you want to be Cop, go for it... do something like:

Submarine
Air Base
Espionage
Radar
Fighter
Silo

...as your priority. Put some contention into the more coveted abilities. Almost assuredly, if you don't get Sub or Air Base, you will get a scanning role.

[Toogeloo]

If we get Cop, awesome. Chances are we will because no scum is going to prioritize it anyways unless they really want to know who the other scum team is or deny us from getting it.

I'm saying it's low priority for us as well. There are other things I would rather deny the scum teams first, and they are going to want them as well. Cop is going to be one of those lesser contested roles I think, and it probably should remain that way.

Can you re-post your list of what Town should get before Scum does.
I would ISO you, but I'm more then sure your iso contains about 12 pages already ._.

Just look at my last post, I sum up my opinion pretty well there.

[Toogeloo]

I see where SpyreXnoia is coming from by the way.

Baku you realize your lists and suggestions can EASILY be manipulated to ensure optimal scumpicks at this point? "Almost assuredly scum can get cop and use it to find other scum and stop town from havin nice things" thats how I'm starting to read it.

Think about what I am doing for a moment Fate, then look back at my other comments. I'm sure it will click.

[Toogeloo]

I see what you did there btw ^_^ ... and you should also start calling me Toogeloo, Toogs, Toogie, 2 G's, Panda, Pandaman, Genmasan, or Pandy. Baku will only get confusing.

[Toogeloo]

I am mildly curious if ALL roles will be in the game.


For example, if no one takes Fail Safe, will we have 11 Silos, or does Fail Safe automatically get dispersed? Silos say "unlimited number" which leads me to believe that it's entirely possible for there to be 20 Silos and no Power roles if we had it that way (obv not gonna happen).

(You will never receive a troop deployment if you did not request one. So, it's possible for there to be 20 silos and no other abilities. --AGM)

[Toogeloo]

Let's lynch gandalf day 1.

This I can get behind.

SP, you haven't even played with me since Alphabet Mafia. >.>

I would much rather lynch chesskid D1 than gandalf.

Cool.

Quote Boxes for the win!

[Toogeloo]

Let's no lynch and no kill nights 1 and 2 :DDDD

Yes, everyone choose Silo, we will no lynch and no kill until DEFCON 1, and then we will all same time nuke (everyone needs to be on at the same time for this) a player of each of our own choosing. We will then have 48 hours of discussion before we can no longer call back any nukes... Talk about pressure .

[Toogeloo]

“You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”

INCONCEIVABLE!

[Toogeloo]

Theme music as we prepare to enter DEFCON 4 for everyone!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tb-gI_pFog0

[Toogeloo]

Here's an example with just 4 people (not 11):

Player A nukes player B to "put pressure on them". Player C nukes player A for nuking player B. Player D nukes player C for nuking player A.

All 4 players are town.

Thats 3 broken arrows with only 4 people but it doesn't stop there because we have 11 people with nukes AND we have:

1) No accountable wagon
2) No accountable way to track everybody's reads

That is EXCELLENT for scum. They just got 4 town kills without having to involve themselves and they are much closer to a win.

In that

highly

unlikely scenario, town would deserve to lose for being utterly moronic. Why stop there Jed? Let's say we have 13 nukes! Player A nukes Player B, Player B has Fail Safe, uh-oh, no protecting Player A now... But Player C doesn't know that! He nukes Player A as well, and Player D nukes Place C as well. Player E thinks Player D is scum trying to reduce town members for LyLo and nukes Player D! The Sub decides that Player E must be scum and nukes him in secret...

oh... my ... ... lord! What have we done!!!



Yeah, uh, I highly doubt any scenario like that is really going to play out. Worst case scenario I forsee is threats of counter nuking, or a bunch of people nuking and recalling within 48 hours.

Possibly

, a couple players may just say "fuck this game" and nuke random people for the lulz, which no amount of policing is really going to stop anyways.




If we are going to direct nukes, let's take it a step further. Let's direct our scanners/protectors who to scan and doc/rb, hmm? Let's take away the free will of a player who has a read, or wants to use the fear factor of the nuke, and do the same with our other PRs as well. I make it sound pretty drastic, huh? Directing anyone's play style is pretty worthless, and just because a person may have a nuke doesn't mean they don't have a plan for said nuke. We can't launch until DEFCON 1 anyways, at which point there will be a few dead players, 4 phases worth of reading, and plenty of targets/gambits worth playing out. Anyone trying to inhibit nuke use needs to chill until DEFCON 1 imo.

[Toogeloo]

Seems like there should be more people posting ITT.

These phases are hard; even Fate has very little to say. I would start worrying more about it once we actually get to DEFCON 3, but it's possible that people

are[/b] trying to stay off the game's radar for the first 144 hours. It's more than likely that our first lynch will be based on this, more or less, random discussion stage.

[Toogeloo]

fate I will bet you moneyz that Dana is town

Fate lumped him in the, "VI and detriment to town category," too ya'know.

[Toogeloo]

Looks Policy Lynch-ish to me, which is just as anti-town... But he does this as town too, so it's not really a tell if that's what you mean.

[Toogeloo]

Its not a policy lynch if I give him a chance, and THEN he acts scummy.

Panda what the HELL do you make of his: "derpy herpy DEFCON 4 is when the wheels will be greased" WHEN NOTHING HAS CHANGED.

I double rechecked the rules, scum could talk all Def5, all alignments were out, everyone could post, choices could be made....

We'll see what actual "importantz" he comes up with today, but the mere FACT that he has stated its only important NOW come DEF4 is scummy enough itself for ROPOS.

We'll see if he participates more... but it's dana, I'm sure I know your expectations already.

[Toogeloo]

Toog is for dead now (and I'm a little surprised no one else has seen it but YOU DONT GET IT TILL I AM AT HOME WITH A REAL COMPUTERS).

Oh? Do pray tell. I'm quite interested how you have become a pro at reading me.

[Toogeloo]

Ohh panda-chan.

Panda-kun please... I am male after all ^_^.

[Toogeloo]

You could call me Senpai if you prefer ^_^ as I am probably older than you as well... But as long as we all know I'm not a cute little thing or a teenage girl or something >_>.

So are you playing mafia by phone or something?

[Toogeloo]

I'm coming up on 35 years of age.

Also, it would be somewhat interesting for someone to declare they have a nuke and go through 2 weeks of discussion only for him to say he doesn't have said nuke and just wanted to see how the discussion went.

[Toogeloo]

Americans have two separate factions it seems as well...

The hand holding, love your neighbor, Mormons, and the shoot first, mount it (define as you will), and hang it, then ask questions later, Louisiana marsh-dwelling Rednecks. Choose a side my fellow Americans ^_^.

[Toogeloo]

Don't forget Kitoari... there are two scum factions. We will be losing 2 players a night starting on DEFCON 2.

[Toogeloo]

Let's not forget scum will be begging town to nuke scummy looking town players (ala VIs), but at least they will go through "sanctioned" channels to do so. Whose going to be manipulated enough fall for scummy mcscummer's antics to lynchnuke a VI? We won't be holding that person accountable of course, because we all would be fine with lynchnuking a scummy player even if they flip VI town, right?

[Toogeloo]

Dang it guys, would you stop posting one-liners? Alright, here's what I've got for now:
@ Fate
Post 403
You quote two of my posts. Why? What I see there is consistency. I understand that you enjoy lynching me because you don't like my playstyle, but calling me scummy for that is ridiculous. Like I would really be more likely to say I'm not going to participate that much until DEFCON 4 as scum than I would as town.
@ Toogeloo
Post 412
What? Are you trying to say I'm generally a lurking/non-participatory player and that you tend not to expect much from me? I'm pretty sure we played one game together, and I didn't have a great chance to shine in that game, but I definitely participated. I do have an average of over 5 posts a day, and I'm in 2/3 games right now that I'm alive in. And my posts are very rarely too short. So you do the math.

Nah, I am just summing up your wiki intro ^_^...

danakillsu

is a very different kind of Mafia player, preffering to express his opinions on whatever jumps out to him, no matter how it looks to others. Consequently, many feel that he is practically unreadable, because he looks so "scummy" all the time. This has worked to his advantage when he is scum, but has gotten him lynched as town more than once. So he has a fairly poor record overall, and despite having this advantage as scum, has never won as scum (partially because of an inherent disadvantage in the setup).

...so I was asking Fate what he really expected from you is all.

[Toogeloo]

what about it?

Hey, here's another example for someone wanting Cop...

Espionage
Radar
Fighter
Fail Safe
Eavesdrop
Silo in ICBM mode


What? Just cuz I put Silo at the end of an example doesn't mean I am making up a list for someone. It's an example... hell, maybe someone did put Silo 1st just because they don't want a PR. Is that what you are bent out of shape about?

[Toogeloo]

Jed, you are really reaching, just so you know.

First off, it's an example.
Secondly, You can't say for certain what people are going to want.

Maybe someone thinks of themselves as a high profile target, so taking things like Doctor or Cop aren't on their list because they know the role could die soon. Maybe (I'm looking at IS on this one) some one just wants to nukes another player and to hell with the other power roles. Maybe a person values a nuke's ICBM ability (or nuking ability /shrug) over other PRs.


At the end of the day, it was an example though...

[Toogeloo]

Toog whats all this dana defense going on.

Not so much a defense as it is a "I'm not ready to burn him yet," attitude. I got a short list of players, but this is still a fuzzy stage where no real conviction has to be mounted yet. As far as anyone could know, the 6 most vocal people in the game could all be scum, or the 6 most influential people for making your role picks could be scum, or the 6 people with the least amount of posts could be scum.

In all reality, this is quite possibly the easiest stage to be manipulated by scum because, as Jed would say, there is no paper trail. It's all conjecture, gut feelings, hair sticking up on the back of your neck, devils and angels on your shoulder, and wishbone breaking. Maybe you could be scum Fate (oh my!)... pressing what constitutes practically a policy lynch on dana. You think he's scummy on activity, but you've stated you wouldn't mind just burning him because he is a VI if he is town. That's pretty easy for scum to say, wouldn't you think?

[Toogeloo]

I can't wait for your "Chrisrage" you've taken to since playing on this site btw. You know what I am referring to. Break the Caps Lock, have an aneurysm, rupture a ulcer in your tummy... strike fear into all that you play with. You and I both know you can't work that kind of magic on me.

You were easy to manipulate in Day 1 of hypnotists because I used the meta of us knowing each other. Of course I had to kill you Night 1 for it as well. But don't pretend that I am intimidated by your play in any way... Let's not force you to break out that wallet of yours, m'kay?

[Toogeloo]

I'm cool and collected bucko. You should know better ^_^.

[Toogeloo]

And what the hell is this last post by toog even mean?

Fate is reciprocating a play style of another player we both know that doesn't play on this site. He's not as good at it either really, but props to him for trying.

[Toogeloo]

Don't pretend that your "What's this dana defense," proposition at me wasn't an open ended statement. It could literally be translated several ways, from asking me "why I don't want to burn dana," to "why am I buddying up to dana," to "what do you see in dana that I don't?"

I can make no assumption that you didn't read the quote and you simply were asking me why I wasn't on the same page as you.

[Toogeloo]

Well well well look who we have here.

Toog whats all this dana defense going on.

And i know what you're going to say,
"Im just callin it how i sees t because im bi-partisan vote me for prez"

But no. I don't want ot hear that, I want to hear what you think of his ALIGNMENT. IN. THIS. GAME>

Spy, if you want to tell me how this screams that Fate didn't read the quote, I'd love to hear. I answered the question the way I saw it asked of me.

[Toogeloo]

I have no intention of revealing my reads about any player, thank you.

You tell me how this sentiment that you were looking for:

When you read this post your reaction wasn't:
"defending dana? I wasn't defending dana.

...is different than this sentiment...

You reaction WAS INSTEAD:
"I never defended dana!

Why don't you be honest with yourself and just say you are upset because I didn't say what alignment I think dana is?

[Toogeloo]

I'll give you a hint Fate...

I have about 14 Neutral reads in this game right now, 2 reads I think are scum, and 3 reads I think are town. Anyone want to one up me and say that they have more reads than that?

[Toogeloo]

Hay, Fate... I'm just calling it as I see it. If anything, you reacted poorly to my comment, since I was asking you if you felt your activity could be seen as scummy, but I suppose that would be pretty scummy of me to point out, right? I never implicated you as scum, though you certainly took offense. If you want to get all ragey on me, you should know better than anyone you won't tilt me.

So let me ask, why do you want to know my stance on dana's alignment when you seem to already have me figured out?

[Toogeloo]

Youre fucking quote snipping.

And, yes... of course I was, because I addressed the only difference outside of those quotes in the same post.

[Toogeloo]

Your stance is pretty clearly: Neutral right dere Im not taking a stance.

But what leads to you this? What is your THOUGHT PROCESS on reading dana's posts so far, my points against him, that LEADS you to this read?

You DO know how to play as town right?

Oh and now you never implicated me, you just said "you COULD be scum Fate, and if I WERE to make a case on you it would be you pushing dana as a PL, just throwing it out there." This is just more fence sitting, not taking any stance that would be able to be read for motivation/validity.

And yeah, your first sentence is just there to piss me off I get it. You're deliberately posting what I said not to post.

And guess what?

Rude abrasive Baku? Asshole Baku? That's the Baku I shot N2 as a gut scum read WAAAAAAAAAAY BACKKKKKKKkkk in the good old days. And you flipped scum.

It's DEFCON 4... I got nothing but interaction reads atm. The only "buddying" that's happened is those who feel we should commune on our Nuke use, and those who want to be rebels.

Why do you want dana so bad? Why not Percy who's made just as many posts, one of which is an EASY way to look pro-town, and the other which was just as useless as dana? Why not Katsuki, who seems to jump in from time to time with fluff? What read do you have on bobsnox, or bunnylover? I can't even think of a post they had. Go ahead... tell me right now, what alignment is Baby Spice?


It's ok to be scared that you don't have any control in DEFCON 5 and 4 Fate. When the meat and potatoes portion of the game gets going, you can rage all you want, but that's where the votes start coming out. That's where we see true conviction. That's when neutral reads start to waiver in other directions.


If you think I am Fence Sitting, it is because I am biding my time, reading things, and setting myself up for when the true hunt begins. You... you are just antsy and cant keep it in your pants.

[Toogeloo]

I'll give you a hint Fate...

I have about 14 Neutral reads in this game right now, 2 reads I think are scum, and 3 reads I think are town. Anyone want to one up me and say that they have more reads than that?

Not me. But I would lean overall with Fate based on your manipulation of choice lists. I have no meta to go on though so that's all I got. Your refusal to admit the potential impact of your list is also troubling.

Yes, thank you for that contribution Jed. We all know that you don't like my example list even though you apparently had no problem (other than disagreeance that he didn't put more on the list... oh hey, he had 6 too) with Percy's list that you even quoted.

[Toogeloo]

I'll let him respond to that when he gets back in two days 9.9 But that's quite the dodge. You are really minimizing the impact of his post and your own but for different reasons.

But I would like to discuss Percy's post. You say it was an easy way to appear town. Do you have meta on Percy scum?

Nope... I haven't played with over half the play list. It's double edged as very few will have meta on me as well. But consider the phase of the game. Someone who played the last game comes swooping in, makes a very pro-town post about how to make role selection, handle nuke due-process, and posts a lot of pro-American imagery, and then disappears...

What's your lasting image of that player?


I said it earlier... it's fairly humorous to see people trying to hunt scum right now. It's like trying to fix a car with nothing but a monkey wrench. We don't have all the tools at our disposal.

[Toogeloo]

Oh, and I still want to nuke you panda.

^.~

/huggles

[Toogeloo]

Americans will really want to prioritze the following (in my opinion):
-

Aircraft Carrier

is huge for Americans if we can get it. It's essentially ROLEBLOCKER, and would be a huge boon to us.
-

Battleship

is the DOCTOR of the game, and it stops nukes, so keeping it out of scum hands would be nice.
-

Submarine

would allow them to nuke any one without fear of exposing themselves once we get to DEFCON 1.
-

Fallout Shelter

would make it so the only kills they worry about are the other scum team night kills, meaning Americans can't nuke them.

Later addendumed Air Base into this to round out the 5 most important abilities to keep from scum.

lulz... you even quoted my example list...

Submarine

<= Hey, what's that?

Air Base
Espionage
Radar
Fighter

Silo

Class, what is wrong with this example? (HINT: its the bolded)

And, most of my argument against Spy was me keeping toys from scum, and him saying we shouldn't discount scanners.

[Toogeloo]

I was devaluing it in comparison to my desire to ensure scum don't get toys suited for them.

It would be great if we got Cop. But it's not a top priority for scum, not like Submarine or Air Base, etc... They would take Cop solely to determine who the other scum team is and to deprive town of the scanner. Town on the other hand can use the weapons scum wants just as well as they can.

That's where Spy and my tiff got heated. I have been of the opinion that town can do fine if we don't get cop, but we will be hurt more if we don't get protection roles and the assassin sub.

[Toogeloo]

It's not that he agreed with me... In fact, he *ahem* sat on the on the fence about it showing reason to believe in both sides, but not siding with either.

Ok this discussion needs stoppin now:

1. THERES ONE HALF-We see the intrinsic value of our own scumhunting and how getting X IS NOT Y SCUM is extremely beneficial in narrowing down reads further because we know how to make basic connections such as "X was obviously not scum with Z"

2. THERES DEVILS

AVOCADOFUCKHOOPLA

ADVOCATE SIDE- Copos can't copos a full clear and I'm paranoid and crazy someonescum will get half cleared and coast like its 1958 and the coastguard is patrollin the borders. Plus I like eating bamboo and keeping shit out of scums hands more than getting cool gadgets for town

CAPICHEY?

Now back to chesskid who hasn't responded to my LATEST EXPLOITS:

Vote: Chesskid

[Toogeloo]

We could have half a dozen people with nukes every day in DEFCON 1. Do we restrict people on their nuke use?

[Toogeloo]

We could have half a dozen people with nukes every day in DEFCON 1. Do we restrict people on their nuke use?

Er, what? We will have at least 7 players (I think) with nuclear silos when DEFCON 1 begins. And that last question - is it rhetorical? Huh?

Read the Silo rule... you can launch once a day. So ... no, it wasn't rhetorical. We could have multiple nukers every day once we hit DEFCON 1.

[Toogeloo]

Fate: Tunnel tunnel tunnel, oh he spit on me, tunnel tunnel tunnel...
SpyreX: *mumble* *mumble* (it'd be more audible if he wasn't slobbin on some Fatemeat )

You two are a hoot.

I really do not get your point here. The Silo is the default role. If you fail to get a PR you get Silo so there is no need to put it on your list and there is no competition for it. You can set it in any mode you want once you receive it.

While I am all for denying scum toys, why would you think that someone

wants

a shot at every PR. There are several people who look like they want nukes.

[Toogeloo]

I have no intention of revealing my reads about any player, thank you.

What is this nonsense?

[snip]

Toogeloo, is that some sort of temporary position, or are you actually advocating going through the game without telling us who you think is scummy and who isn't? Am I reading it out of context? I don't understand.

The response was to Fate when he asked my position on dana. I thought it was evident that I meant it for that particular moment when Fate was badgering me about who me reads were on. Of course I will be giving reads when I feel the time is correct to do so, what good would not telling people my reads do once we get into real scum hunting?

I get the feeling most people are misunderstanding the point behind a lot of my posts, not picking up on sarcasms, and just reading things at face value. I've been called out for posting things that I figured should be pretty evident that I was doing purposely. I'd say a good chunk of my posts in the last 48 hours or so should have a certain air of sarcasm and snarkiness to them.

[Toogeloo]

Toogeloo basically ignored my post. Here is my question again:

We could have half a dozen people with nukes every day in DEFCON 1. Do we restrict people on their nuke use?

You said this. What is your own answer to this question? Do you have any proposals?
A third, related question: What is your opinion of the

pages

of discussion about this issue already?
Your question is really quite odd.

Wasn't my intention to ignore your question, I figured yours was just as rhetorical as you thought mine was.

I think I've kind of bled my opinions on the matter though. People who want to "appear" pro-town are going to state they have a nuke, while those that don't care are going to use the nuke how they want, including as pressure. I may have over exaggerated the thought that we will have a half dozen nukes a day when we get to DEFCON 1 because many of those will probably never get used because people will either have them in ICBM mode or they just don't feel like using them.

The reason I asked it was because of the "Kumbayah" feel that people want to use the nukes as a second lynch, yet we are going to have several people with nuking capability more than likely.


My overall opinion with the handling of nukes is to just leave it to each player. Don't hype the nuke, don't discuss it for a week prior to launch. Leave it to the player to decide if his read is good or not and use the 48 hours of recall time to discuss, or possibly the 24 hours before he decides to push the button. Some people may end up using the Nuke for it's fear factor and plan on recalling it anyways. The only thing most people need to fear is Fail Safe if they plan on playing with nukes since it's reactionary and can't be recalled.

[Toogeloo]

Toogeloo basically ignored my post. Here is my question again:

We could have half a dozen people with nukes every day in DEFCON 1. Do we restrict people on their nuke use?

You said this. What is your own answer to this question? Do you have any proposals?
A third, related question: What is your opinion of the

pages

of discussion about this issue already?
Your question is really quite odd.

Wasn't my intention to ignore your question, I figured yours was just as rhetorical as you thought mine was.

I think I've kind of bled my opinions on the matter though.

People who want to "appear" pro-town are going to state they have a nuke

I don't like this at all because it helps scum figure out who has the power roles. Nuke claiming (1) should be done once the town has two lynch candidates; one for the lynch one for the nuke.

That's not what I was saying. I was saying that people who tell town they have a nuke to use (as in discuss for a secondary kill for the day) are doing it to appear pro-town... as opposed to those who don't say anything and just nuke.

Also, the only two abilities that prevent Nuclear attack are the Battleship and the Fallout Shelter. Of the two, the Battleship only prevents the first nuke. So what you would be asking to do when you double nuke is to have the ability to either A) nuke through a Doc protection, or B) determine if the player is the Fallout Shelter.

[Toogeloo]

meh, I forgot about ICBM as well.

[Toogeloo]

Vote: Baby Spice

I don't like his pro-town parroting from DEFCON 5 and 4, and his activity was minimal at best beyond that.


And before Fate asks, between dana and Jed, I would lean towards Jed's lynch, but he doesn't need more votes right now.

[Toogeloo]

o.o

Vote Faraday

1) He comes in (I think its a he), and joins the biggest wagon, although everyone was doing it, without any reason what so ever, or even saying I agree with what is previously stated.
2)Does the exact same thing, only changes his vote to Dana.

Faraday came in and voted Katsuki first... someone no one voted, before changing to dana. This basically tells me that he thinks Jed is town and didn't want to vote him so struck out on his own. Jack came in with a dana vote, and Faraday could see himself backing that lynch.

[Toogeloo]

WHY THE HELL ARE YOU LYNCHING JED

Vote: Toog

That's a bit different from yesterday's:

I got more than that, RedCoyote.

Town:(like, forealz)
Dana
bobsnox (played with him on another site)
AV

those are like 100%/

Gandalf is like 90% scum, SP is pretty high up there. Fate I can't read for shit, but all his reads are off at best.
Oh and Toog might be scum, but it's like 50 50

What happened over night?

[Toogeloo]

For the lulz btw....

I want WANT my lynch tomorrow.

...agreed, let's lynch SpyreX tomorrow.





(I know what you meant, it was for the lulz after all).

[Toogeloo]

Ya'know... I'm feeling suicidal.

unvote; vote: Fate

Flip-floppy despite wanting to tunnel on me and dana solely. Pushed for a policy lynching on dana yesterday. Most of his posts are just the Fatrerage stuff.

Hey Fate, is Baby Spice Town or Scum? I want you to tell me right now, best not dance around the issue, that would be hypocritical.



After the past few days, I am as confident as I can be that dana, IS, and VV are all town. That should appease Fate as he now clearly knows what I think of dana. I would rather we lynch Baby Spice, Katsuki, or Fate today. Of the two most contested people talked about, I would obviously go with Jed.

Baby Spice for the reasons I earlier mentioned.
Katsuki for posting mostly fluff during D5&4, and having a pretty terrible list of town and scum imo.
Fate for my above reasons.

no support for the others. derp.

So you think I am scum because on Day 1, I am not sheeping the masses?




Anywho... let the Faterage commence.

[Toogeloo]

ARBITRARY EXCUSE NOT TO PROVIDE CONTENT FOR THREE DAYS? CHECK.
SCUMMALICIOUS FIRST POST ABOUT DEALING WITH FATE AND META APPEALS? CHECK.
MEMBER OF THE VI BRIGADE AND DETRIMENT TO THE TOWN AT LARGE? CHECK.

CONFIRM VOTE: DANA

Might I point out that none of these three reasons point to anything actually incriminating of dana. He had the same behavior last game we played together really.


Arbitrary excuse for not providing content...? Lots of people had low content posts and/or posting to at least appear active. Just because dana had the lowest post count doesn't imply scumminess. Maybe he didn't feel like discussing how we should handle roles or nukes.

Scumalicious first post about dealing with Fate and meta appeals...? You were on his nuts before he posted his first content post, why would you think you wouldn't be brought up, especially given the history between you two (as he makes apparent you don't approve of his style)? And given it's discussion only on Day 1, there is very little to go on except meta of previous style and play.

Member of the VI Brigade and detriment to the town at large...? This is just your own personal bias. In fact, it's not even a declaration you think he is scum, but terrible town. The basis of my calling you a policy lyncher, especially given the follow up vote.


The flip flopping is about you gladly wanting to get rid of anyone that doesn't like you, from Me, to dana, to chess, to Jed. You don't necessarily have to have voted us in DEFCON 3, but you have done proxy votes prior, and you have been vocal about getting rid of any one of us since DEFCON 3 started. Your votes have jumped around to whomever was going to get the pressure, so it's not you who is actually leading the wagons, but just going where the votes go for people you want to get rid of... hence, flip flopping.


I would dare say you are a detriment to town far before dana is my friend.

[Toogeloo]

In fact, thinly veiled behind all the your suspicions is a slight OMGUS, since the only person you expressed distaste in immediately was dana, who we should all be able to agree is just an easy target.

You went swinging after me when I jabbed at you the scumminess of a policy lynch, you jab at chess because he mentions not liking you in DEFCON 5. I'm sure anyone else who mentioned you at some point was called scum by you as well, though I would have to go back and check for sure.

[Toogeloo]

Why would the failsafe be town? If any member of the town put failsafe anywhere on their list, they need to die now.

I put Failsafe on my list, go for it.

[Toogeloo]

Failsafe is a nuke. Any reason to believe a pro-town looking scum wouldn't try to nuke a scummy looking townie?

[Toogeloo]

People seem to fail to

really

read into my posts I suppose.

It's all WIFOM anyways. Defcon 5 is funny like that >_>.

i.e. Who would believe me if I said that Espionage was my top pick town role?

[Toogeloo]

Well, at defcon 3 going "MAYBE I AM A COP" just wasted all of it and you can die soon, tia.

Oh, you caught me... guess I'm screwed.

[Toogeloo]

/prod dodge

Playing catchup now.

This was over 3 hours ago now... you got anything yet?

[Toogeloo]

I just had an amazing idea.
Come D1, if the failsafe is town, they can claim, and we can pseudo lynch, with the victim (if they have a silo) being required to nuke the failsafe, then cancel the launch, and someone else can be lynched.
Would that work?

What exactly would be the point of it? If we are lynching scum, and their choice is to die by lynch or die by nuking town, are they really going to recall it? If we are lynching town, why would you ask them to resign their fate in the game?

[Toogeloo]

And if the town player is disenfranchised/VI of the game, and decides to not recall his nuke? We lose 3 people in a day, all of which can be town, right?

[Toogeloo]

never underestimate a player who is disgusted imo.

[Toogeloo]

We also narrow down PRs with your request.

You ask a player to out himself as the Failsafe, you ask potential lynchees to out themselves as nukes, and you plan to target another player after the first player is forced to nuke himself who will also almost assuredly have to claim as well. You may as well take it a step further and state any player we plan to lynch may as well just nuke the fail safe at DEFCON 1 if they can and if they can't we determine how important their role is for town (terrible idea of course).

[Toogeloo]

So, I've seen this exchange far too often:

Person A makes poor case and vote on person B.
Person B points out why that case is poor, votes Person A.
Person A just yells "That's OMGUS," discrediting person B without really responding to the points against him.

This is a problem. It's not OMGUS if you make a scummy case on me and I vote you for that case. If you had made that case on another player, I would be voting you for the same reasons. But because your case was directed towards me, it's OMGUS and therefore invalid?

You have to realize, there hasn't been a case on Fate until recently. He gets butthurt that someone mentions something he does as being scummy, and he turns around and proxy votes the player before they build a case. It's not that a case is poor, but if someone says, "hey, that was scummy," and then Fate goes, "oh yeah?! well, VOTE: You!," that is what is thinly veiled OMGUS.

[Toogeloo]

claiming submitted list can out lying scum.
For example if come MC time they claim fallout shelter and it was 2nd on their list they say, if there's a dead town who put it first, or a live person who has it first, there's a counterclaim.
So basically the sub has to get good luck with a fake list, etc etc

Firstly, any players that die to stealth bomber aren't going to be claiming their lists. Secondly, it's more plausible that players will just claim Nukes in ICBM mode, adjust a fake claim based on the info that's been provided, or just claim what they really are since scum and town shared the same list.

[Toogeloo]

According to Fate, we have 8 Scum in this game:

dana
Toog
IS
Jed
bunny
bob
av
Kat

That's almost half the game... Even if 7 of the 8 flip town, if that 8th flips scum, I guarantee Fate will be like, "I told you so, my reads are awesome!"

[Toogeloo]

I'm saying it's pretty easy to say that almost half the town is scum and look like you are scum hunting.

[Toogeloo]

The shotgun approach is very effective.
Shoot a shit ton of scatter shot and see what sticks.

Seems kind of lazy to me.

[Toogeloo]

I absolutely

hated

this post. You're clearly not a noob, and trying to make someone look bad for doing

too much scumhunting

makes my head spin.

Except he didn't

do

any real scum hunting, besides

possibly

bunny. Everyone else was a generalized statement about activity, most things that had been mentioned at some point prior, and continued to push the, "dana and toog scumteam because they are buddiez," argument.

[Toogeloo]

I'm fairly confident at least a few prods are needed at this point.

[Toogeloo]

Unvote:
Vote: Toog

Dana's recent posts actually read as town, for fucks sake.

Despite the fact that you unvoted me later, this is a pretty shitty post Fate. Your case against Dana and I was that we were buddies, but now you think Dana is townish, so what's your case against me now?

[Toogeloo]

The following people haven't posted in over 48 hours:
Baby Spice (hasn't posted in almost a week, and left a very open ended V/LA)
bunny lover
chesskid
Jed Cooper
Red Coyote
Vasude Va

Percy is almost at 48 hours as well.


That's about a third of the player base.

[Toogeloo]

What? Why? You're here now, why not make some noise?

[Toogeloo]

Toog seems to claw and scratch at everything he can.

Call me a concerned citizen.

[Toogeloo]

I can't tell if SocioPath is being sarcastic.

This is a terrible post.

Toog seems to claw and scratch at everything he can.

Call me a concerned citizen.

Concerned?
Concerned about what exactly?
I can assume that I'll love the response that you give.

Probably not since you seem to want to fault me for wanting prods and people to provide content. You seem to love to lurk, so I guess I could just assume you defend that playstyle in others since it would be hypocritical of you to claim otherwise.

[Toogeloo]

YOU ARE STILL SCUM ON YOUR OWN MERIT

Pray tell what that merit might be? If I recall correctly, you said I was scum because I wouldn't agree with your stance on dana, and then you really furied when I implied the scumminess of your activity, and didn't specifically say what you wanted me to verbatim. What else have I missed?

The following people haven't posted in over 48 hours:
Baby Spice (hasn't posted in almost a week, and left a very open ended V/LA)
bunny lover
chesskid
Jed Cooper
Red Coyote
Vasude Va

Percy is almost at 48 hours as well.


That's about a third of the player base.

And thats not the best part^^^^^

1. I leave the Dana wagon even though it was larger than the wagon on myself to explore other reads
2. I vote Jed for disappearing whilst attention has shifted away from him
3. Panda boy posts a "PosterTownBoy" prod claim.


HE DOESNT FUCKIN COMMENT ON TWO RECENT VOTE SWITCHES BY HIS MAIN SCUM READ WHO HEHAS HIS VOTE ON [FATE].

OH WAIT HE COMMENTED ON

ONE

OF THEM, THE ONE WHERE I VOTED HIM SPECIFICALLY. HE COULD GIVE LESS A FUCK WHY IM VOTING JED OR WHY I LEFT THE DANA WAGON BECAUSE HES NOT INTERESTED IN MY ALIGNMENT,

ONLY MY LYNCH

.

Am I supposed to tunnel you insistently for the same reasons I have my vote on you previously? I've already stated you are flip flopper, should I wave my hands in the air and go, "there! there! He did it again!?"


Your arguments against me are full of logic fail Fate. I cannot honestly believe you are this bad. Next thing you are arguing is that I am not pushing harder for your lynch. Wouldn't you think part of the reason I want some prods from inactivity is to get some more voices against you since I feel like I am leading this charge solo? Some of the people on the list haven't taken a stance on anything yet, and I want their opinion of you as well, maybe their opinions matter. Right now we are stagnate, so I of course would like ANY form of new content for discussion and to see some conviction from those who are avoiding this spat between you and I.

3. Panda boy posts a "PosterTownBoy" prod claim.

Why do players constantly use this against me? I'm too townie to be town. The only game it didn't come up is the one game I was scum... hey, maybe it's a towntell you think? Not that easy I suppose.

[Toogeloo]

Not sit there with your head up your ass and go "that's a shitty ME-vote Fate!"

You do realize that was also part of me saying what is scummy about your voting pattern, right? There is little benefit to me pointing it out otherwise.


I fucking challenge you to ISO me and build a case though. I want to see this wall, and if the masses buy into your bullshit, then I will happily surrender to your awesome case building powers.

[Toogeloo]

Toog seems to claw and scratch at everything he can.

Call me a concerned citizen.

Sociopath, "apparently" is misrepresenting your play. Instead of thinking SOCIO is SCUMMY for this, or any comment on SOCIOS alignment, you just clarify what you WANT Him to think. "Oh Im just Panda the town Carebear that loves activity!"

SCUMSUCMSCUSMCSUNSCSUUSCUMSUCMSCUSCM

Also... out of curiosity, why must I be angry and call everyone in town either scum or town based on single statements? Do I agree with Socio, or think he's the towniest townie to ever town? No... But do I have any kind of case against him either? Not really, no.

Despite your popular belief, I do NOT need to have a TOWN or SCUM read on every player in the game at this very moment based on one comment they have made.

[Toogeloo]

Toog seems to claw and scratch at everything he can.

Call me a concerned citizen.

Sociopath, "apparently" is misrepresenting your play. Instead of thinking SOCIO is SCUMMY for this, or any comment on SOCIOS alignment, you just clarify what you WANT Him to think. "Oh Im just Panda the town Carebear that loves activity!"

SCUMSUCMSCUSMCSUNSCSUUSCUMSUCMSCUSCM

Also... out of curiosity, why must I be angry and call everyone in town either scum or town based on single statements? Do I agree with Socio, or think he's the towniest townie to ever town? No... But do I have any kind of case against him either? Not really, no.

Despite your popular belief, I do NOT need to have a TOWN or SCUM read on every player in the game at this very moment based on one comment they have made.

THATS NOT WHAT I FUCKIN SAID.

THERES NO EVIDENCE OF YOU THINKING ANYTHING AT ALL ABOUT HIM. NO "Socio might just be throwing dirt on me here for invalid reasons"

NO "Socio is clearly misinterpreting my play, but I think he geniunely believes it"

NO NOTHING. NO NOTHING THAT USUALLY COMES FROM YOU WHEN YOU ARE TOWN AND YOU COMMENT ON THINGS BECAUSE IVE SEEN YOU AS TOWN DAMN WELL AS MUCH AS IVE SEEN YOU AS SCUM.

Oh? So is this another, "you aren't saying what I want you to, so you must be scum," thing?

[Toogeloo]

BUT

you try o fucking play it off like you're pro-town and not tunneling, like you're considering all options and weighing what other people are saying etc. etc.

THIS IS AN ACT

, if you were focused on me as your only scumread you'd be pushing me and expanding etc. etc. BUT you don't want to be seen as doing something anti-town as that, so you play the "IM SO CHILL AND RELAXED" and pretend to be sitting back and thinking things over->

BUT YOU HAVENT COMMENTED ON ANYONE BUT ME IN XXX NUMBER OF FUCKIN PAGES"

Of course I am weighing options, especially since you are so blind to have noticed that I have 3 scum reads, and 1 "could be" scum read. You want me throw my fish away though and try to go after the less vocal fish. I'm sorry, it doesn't work like that. If I believe I have scum dead to rights, I don't just abandon the fight.

And if I were really just tunneling on you, I could give two shits about other people posting. As it is, we have stagnated to FoSes being tosses around, and people not really wanting to spark anything else up. Thankfully, they have you and I to continue making things interesting.

[Toogeloo]

Oh? So is this another,

"you aren't saying what I want you to, so you must be scum,"

thing?

GRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA. IM GOING TO BED AFTER THIS BEFORE I CAN'T SLEEP.

TWIST TWISTTWIST DO THE TWISTERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

IT WAS NEVER THAT. IT WAS NEVER ANYTHING OTHER THAN ME KNOWING YOUR META, KNOWING WHAT TOWN WOULD SAY IN SAID SITUATION BASED ON PSYCHOLOGY, KNOWING WHAT YOU AS TOWN WOULD SAY, ETC.

Its not "you fail to live up to my expectations Baku. BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW YOU IS SCUM? YELL YELLYELL"

Its

"why the fuck AREN'T you doing these town things that townyou would be commenting on and seeing?

YOU ARE SCUM. YELLYTELLYELELLYELLLL"

Seems the same thing to me.

[Toogeloo]

It still boils down to the same thing. Fate expects me to retort in a specific manner, which I am not doing, therefore, I am not saying things that he wants me to. That just proves that Fate's meta on me is shit, that he refuses to acknowledge that people don't always act 100% the same every game they play, or he can't think of anything better to fight me off with other than, "you didn't say what you should say if you were town." Please tell me he has an actual argument, or is he just flailing?

[Toogeloo]

Yep, Toog is scum.
This latest tirade is laughably bad.

He isn't even attacking people he thinks to be scum.

Unvote
Vote: Toog

I'm butting heads with Fate since he was my scumspect.
Baby Spice isn't posting, but I also think he's scum.

Who gets us more information as a whole for me to attack?*

unvote
VOTE: Toog

baaaaaa....

God damnit.

I want Toog dead. I didn't want him dead today.

I'm not dying today, not unless everyone collectively stops using their heads.

SpyreX what the fuck are you doing.

What the fuck are you doing? Where's this WALL!!! of a case against me? You aren't some pariah for town, and if your case against me is that your meta doesn't stack up, then lol@you.

According to Fate, we have 8 Scum in this game:

dana
Toog
IS
Jed
bunny
bob
av
Kat

That's almost half the game... Even if 7 of the 8 flip town, if that 8th flips scum, I guarantee Fate will be like, "I told you so, my reads are awesome!"

Well, I don't really get the point of this post. Why are you slighting Fate for things he hasn't done yet? It seems like every post I've been reading is getting me angry. This isn't scumhunting.

I can only say the same thing about Fate over and over before it starts to wear. We are two bulls butting heads in the midst of a sleepy town. It's a jab at him in a snarky way, and not intended to be true scum hunting. I even mentioned that I hated the shotgun approach because if there was any scum on that list, they would hardly be quaking in their boots.

Probably not since you seem to want to fault me for wanting prods and people to provide content. You seem to love to lurk, so I guess I could just assume you defend that playstyle in others since it would be hypocritical of you to claim otherwise.

What happened to you? Why are you taking up these dead end, crappy arguments? I mean, honestly, do you stand by this post?

More snarky behavior from me, since Socio felt the need to ask. Is snarkiness not allowed? Fate refuses to accept that I am allowed to do it.


Look at how the day has gone since DEFCON 3 started. It's hardly active at all. Fate and I are probably the most entertaining thing going on right now, and the longer it goes on the more I detest a lot of the people in the game for standing by and chip shotting on the sidelines. Everyone else is just tossing FoS's here and there, bouncing votes around with little care, or just waiting to go back to sleep. To be honest, it's actually making me desire to leave Fate alive since it's becoming plausible that the two most vocal personalities in the game are both town, despite what my initial gut wants me to think.



*I slept on it, and I am going to get off Fate. I told you I was feeling suicidal. The rock and hard place I am in is obvious that I can sit here and continue butting heads with a player that most the player base knows better than me, but the longer I do so, the more it becomes obvious that people are just observing us solely. The possibility remains that we are both idiots, or maybe he is scum and just I am the idiot for backing down, but I do know that I am feeling as if something is wrong with the scenario in general. I can sit here and poke at his buttons more, see if I can get him to rageslip, or I can just leave it for later. I think I choose the latter...

Unvote

Back and with 20 pages to read

Die...

Vote: Baby Spice

Ex-hypnotist players... tell me that Baby Spice doesn't remind you of Elli.

[Toogeloo]

heheheaHHAHAHGAHAHHAHA

"I was feeling suicidal, and now I want to live. /lurker vote"

Actually it's quite the opposite. I know it's even more suicidal to move off of you, but I did it regardless.

[Toogeloo]

Still waiting for that case on me btw. Prove to me that you are a real scum hunter Fate.

[Toogeloo]

Case on you? I could go through your ISO and make a fucking wall

Then what happened to this? My challenge to you...

anywho...

if you want it me versus you, then everyone must participate.

I will accept no other lynch other than yours or mine.

Unvote
Vote: Fate

Anyone not of Fate or me change your votes now please.

[Toogeloo]

Fate, our evil plan is working.

[Toogeloo]

Well I think everyone knows where I stand in this confrontation, so it's pretty much just a matter of waiting to see just how many people are blind enough to vote for Toogeloo instead of Fate.

I have two options:
- Vote for the person who's been intentionally aggravating a player all game to set up a lynch.
OR
- Vote for a player who ended up getting aggravated because of the first player and because of that I can't get a read on him.

I'd argue that Fate started this whole mess when he tried to incriminate me for not taking a stance on dana way back in DEFCON 5. Got a little gruff when I mentioned something scummy about him, and since then it's been a "no U!" contest pointing back and forth, me with snarky remarks and him with "MWHAHAHAHAHA!"

Also if both SpyreX and Fate are mafia I will eat a thousand hats.

my gf just left. catching up now

Scumslip. Who's your godfather?

1) There is no godfather.
2) I

really

hope this post was a joke.

Do things like this really need to be argued? And now I see why sarcasm is lost on you people as well.

[Toogeloo]

I'd really prefer us not to have to lynch one of these two. If you would've came to me earlier I'd have jumped on Fate in a second, but I'm just not as comfortable with Toogeloo as I once was. Toogeloo, are you sure you want to make a stand here?

Fate and I co-existing in this game is only going to continue to be a distraction for scum to hide behind. I tried to drop it earlier in a way to stuff the case, but it's apparent what Fate wants, and I can't disagree. The important thing is that you analyze the hell out of both wagons tomorrow, not just the person who was lynched. Once this spat between Fate and I is laid to rest, the two most vocal personalities in the game butting heads should no longer be a distraction.

[Toogeloo]

Toog is totally one to talk about "things that really need to be argued."

What? Why? You're here now, why not make some noise?

HURRRRRR
THESE ARE THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT NEED TO BE ARGUED.
VLA NOTICES.
OBV.

Considering that chess came in right after I posted that list, I think it worked to some extent. And my comment at him was a plea for activity, not an argument of any other type.

[Toogeloo]

Wait what, so you believe fate is town now, toog?

I think everyone else has been hiding behind Fate and I, but it could just be because we have been louder. This translates into the very real possibility that Fate is town. No one has really gone to bat for Fate, but rather attacked me instead for attacking Fate. Could be, if he is scum, that his buddies were distancing and trying to find other viable targets. That's not to say he hasn't had a buddy relationship with anyone; notably SpyreX and Socio have both been quite friendly with Fate.

As Barret would say though, "There ain't no stoppin' this train we on!"

Our spat has given lurkers increased lurking ability. Baby Spice (yeah) was supposedly catching up, but used the spat to lay a vote on me, and disappear without content (thus no content at all since starting the game). Other players are just as guilty of laying votes and completely disappearing. These are things you guys should keep in the back of your mind after I am lynched.

[Toogeloo]

I like Jack a little better than I like Bob. Bob hasn't taken a stance on Fate and I, in fact he hasn't commented even once on it the entire game. We surely have to be distracting enough that at least some kind of passing comment would be necessary. Jack puts himself a little more forward, and isn't trying to be subtle or dance around any subjects.

If you asked me which to lynch right now, I would say bob.

[Toogeloo]

HOWEVER I HAVE MY HONOR TO OBTAIN. TOOG MUST DIE OR BACK DOWN FIRST BEFORE I CAN LUNGE.

All yours. I concede that you aren't what I thought you were at the start of DEFCON 3.

Unvote

If we both survive this day, promise me we won't be making out on the next day phase? I don't want you cooties or nothing.

[Toogeloo]

The words keep going up.
The death isn't.

I'm trying...

HOWEVER I HAVE MY HONOR TO OBTAIN. TOOG MUST DIE OR BACK DOWN FIRST BEFORE I CAN LUNGE.

All yours. I concede that you aren't what I thought you were at the start of DEFCON 3.

Unvote

If we both survive this day, promise me we won't be making out on the next day phase? I don't want you cooties or nothing.

NOT SO FAST, BATMAN!

Damn it I couldn't find a video link for it...so...
HEHHEHAHHAAAAAAAA

OWNED TOOG. OWNED.


LET ME POINT IT OUT NICE AND SHINY SO EVERYONE CAN SEE WHAT JUST HAPPENED:

TOOG AND ME THROW DOWN. CHESSKID SCUMS IT UP, SO I SAY "WELL HOT DAMN I SORTA WANNA KILL CHESSKID NOW. BUT I STILL GOTTA FINISH THIS DUEL!"

TOOG: "OK! PROMISE YOU WONT LYNCH ME TOMORROW OR ANY OTHER DAY? I NO LONGER THINK YOURE SCUM!!!!!!!"
WHAT THE FUCK?

WHAT HAPPENED?

WHERE DID HIS SCUM READ OF ME GO? LEMME GO FUCKIN FIND IT:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 4#p2678384

A FULL SEVEN PAGES AGO, AND

TWENTY-FUCKING-THREE ISO POSTS AGO

WAS THE LAST TIME PANDA MADE A POST ACTIVELY CALLING ME OUT FOR SOMWETHING HE THOUGHT WAS SCUMMY, REGARDLESS OF HOW PERCY DESTROYED THAT POST ANYWAY, IT JUST GOES TO SHOW YA.

THERE'S MORE:
HERE HE VOTES ME AND SAYS ONE OF US DOESN'T LEAVE THE DEATH PIT, FULLY CONFIDENT "no one will sheep insane fate. town has lost their minds if they wagon me" FULLY CONFIDENT HE'LL SURVIVE.

HE DOESN'T THINK I'M SCUM AT THIS POINT, EVIDENCED BY:

THE NEXT OF HIS ISO POSTS, 132-138 WHERE HE DOESN'T TRY TO GET THE OTHER PERSON IN THE DEATH MATCH LYNCHED: ME, BUT INSTEAD FILLS IT WITH FENCESITTING "WELL FATE MAY VERY WELL BE TOWN AND WE'RE JUST YELLING WHILE LURKERS LURK SOMEOPNE END THIS" CULIMNATING WITH A FINAL UNVOTE.

AND WHAT ABOUT THAT UNVOTE YOU SAY? IT

REEKS SCUM

BECAUSE THAT'S ALL IT IS. A FUCKING

UN

VOTE.

NO, REVOTE. NO "ok now bunnylover gets death" OR "ok now chesskid gets death" OR "ok now NEW SUSPECT! gets death."

JUST A "ok death match over you win plz be gentle and don't give me STDs use protection"

LOL BAKU. LOL. HOW YOUR SCUMGAME HAS FALLEN. I AT LEAST EXPECTED A BABY SPICE VOTE.

BUT NO, YOU HAD TO GO AND CLAIM SCUM.

AND BEFORE YOU "here we go again with more "baku didnt do what i expect, therefore hes scum bs cases" NO. ITS NOT ABOUT WHAT I EXPECT, ITS ABOUT TOWN UNVOTING AND NOT GOING A NEW DIRECTION? HELL FUCKIN NO. YOURE SCUM THROUGH AND THROUGH

AND YOU DIE TODAY. KITOARI PUT THAT FUCKIN VOTE BACK ON

CHESSKID IS SCUM THE WAY HES DANCED AROUND TOOG'S WAGON AND RETROJUSTIFIED ALL HIS FUCKIN HOPS, AND SMACKED HIM RIGHT DAB IN 50% PERFECT BUS OR SAVE LAND. BUT HES FOR TOMORROW.

PANDA'S FOR TODAY.



I'LL GIVE YOU CREDIT, YOU POKED THE ROTWEILER WITH A STICK, BUT THEN THE VOTES PILED ON AND THEY GOT PRETTY HIGH AND YOU WERE LIKE

"OH SHIT, THEYRE REALLY GONNA FUCKIN LYNCH ME!?"

THEN YOU CRACKED, LIKE A DAMN EGG.

AND NOW.

I'M GOING.

TO.

FRY.

YOU.

Fuck me... you got me.

I claim Chinese Sub. Not like I thought I was going to get out of this day alive, what was I thinking!?

[Toogeloo]

By the way, the unvote was a courtesy to you to have first crack at chess btw. Not that it matters.

I'm agreeing with Spy that the day is too long already. All I want after I die is you to admit you can't read my meta for shit. That'll make me happy .

[Toogeloo]

First crack? The fuck kind of excuse is that? You didn't make any mention of that IN that post, no "chesskid now, Fate?" Just some "dont touch me down there tomorrow" phrased jokingly when you were ALL TOO SERIOUS you didn't want me to suspect you again.

Baku town doesn't roll over like this. BAKU TOWN FIGHTS TO HIS DYING BREATH.

BUT NO. YOU CAN'T SCUM IT UP ANYMORE. YOU DONT HAVE THE ENERGY WHEN CAUGHT BY FATE.

I DONT BLAME YOU.

Trust me, it's not you... it's not you at all. It's the half dozen other votes on me that don't have anything else to participate and other people thinking day should have been over by now. Add to that my point that if you and I remain in this game, it's just going to further serve as a distraction.

My failing was that I talk too much for conversation purposes or just to post. Having as many posts as I do, it's pretty easy to eventually say things people can pick apart. Wasn't my best start, but you guys can live without my role, I'm confident.



Preview Edit: Fate, get it right. If chess is scum, he clearly isn't my buddy. He was fine with lynching either of us.

[Toogeloo]

I can't tell if Toog is claiming because he's just given up, or he claiming just to shut Fate up.

Little of both. I am a detriment to town at this point, regardless of alignment.

[Toogeloo]

I'll hammer, since it's going to happen anyway, but before I do, I should say that I did not take Toog's scumclaim to be serious. But others seem to believe it is, and there's no way I'm convincing a group this dumb that it's not before midnight tomorrow. Well, here goes nothing.

unvote vote: Toogeloo

It wasn't serious, I am American.

My parting words would be to look first at people who didn't take a stance on Fate v. Toog situation, especially people who didn't vote for one of us two despite us making it public that we wanted it between us. These people were probably trying to stay off the radar. I would also look at people who tried to duck out and stay ducked out over the last few days given the situation, or those that called Fate or I scummy/unreadable, but did not lay a vote.

Percy's attack on chess is also good, but I would not let that be your primary focal point on Day 2.


The following players are ones that I felt the least townie after the day ended:
Internet Stranger - hasn't posted in almost 2 days, made no comments about the Fate and I situation.
Bobsnox - came in after being prodded by commentary to make a comment, note however that he called me scummy, yet didn't vote for me.
Baby Spice - terrible content, extremely inactive.
chesskid - see Percy's case.
Katsuki - mostly gut, but he was fence sitting at the end like he was looking for a reason to get off me or something.
Gandalf - sheep.
Faraday - avoided direct conflict.

[Toogeloo]

And I stand by the fact that I had to be lynched because allowing me to live on would have been a detriment to town's thought process. As I said before, I talked too much, allowed myself to say stupid things that got picked apart, and as a result, I could not allow myself to continue living in the game for fear of how much focus would be on me over the coming days and not on who it should be on.

[Toogeloo]

Oh, one other parting piece of information, since I am sure it will help.

My list had every role on it, and I still got Silo, so know that every role is in the game.

[Toogeloo]

I still say Percy is playing the White Knight role a little too well. I DONT TRUST HIM. He is sitting back, playing the good guy, riding Fate's coattails and sniping on the weak.

While I would like to agree with this, there are two scum factions. So even if he is doing a superb job playing White Knight, and nailing the other faction, he is hurting his faction just the same by being so vocal and likely drawing kills from the other team. Unless he is Air Base, and confident that he can live without worry of the other team's night kills, then I why put such a big target on his back?

[Toogeloo]

Toog, youre retarded.

Oh, and this is true too. I have an IQ of 82. Thanks for pointing that out, jerk.

[Toogeloo]

I kid, I kid...

<3 IS.

[Toogeloo]

I will honestly be surprised if too many more people even poke their nose into this topic until DEFCON 2 starts.

[Toogeloo]

I am far less sure of Fate's alignment than I was when he was pushing for dana's lynch. I would say there is a strong possibility that it was Town v. Town there, especially in the last 48 hours.

[Toogeloo]

...

So after all this sparring, how certain are you that fate is town? You seem to feel this was town on town?

A couple hours later of dwelling, my gut kind of twitches at the idea that Baby and Fate could be allied, and that, "FATESMASH!" attitude could have been a cover to protect his pal, but considering I am the ONLY person who voted Baby during this phase, I don't find it nearly that likely.

[Toogeloo]

I wouldn't say I was tired or burnt out. I just went about this game entirely the wrong way. I am a person who posts quite frequently on MS, regardless of alignment, alot has to do with the long days. The thing that got me was the discussion without votes portion of the game. I allowed myself to talk so much with nothing else to distract anyone, that I eventually got stuck in quicksand.

[Toogeloo]

Day 1 reads... let's see...

Fate - Scum
Baby Spice - Scum
dana - town


Yeah... that should about cover it. Good job Americans!

[Toogeloo]

(I see how you conveniently left out the part where you thought Baby was scum WITH me and you started thinking I was town as the day went on)

/grin

It's all about initial reads. I only came up with the theory you guys were scum together later, and more or less second guessed myself on how suicidal your play was as scum on Day 1.