Hydra Mafia (Day 4, I can't think of a clever title!)

[TomAndJerry]

That was Tom btw....

[Mr Smith]

Chimaira: Reasons. NOW.

[Chimaira]

@Mr Smith, I'll be happy to talk about our reasons after the mass claim is done. For now (as always) mass claim should be done with as little other conversation as possible as that simply helps the scum figure out what they want to claim.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Professor Paradox]

Town Watcher.

Night 1 - Targeted Crab Cannon. No one targeted him.
Night 2 - Targeted T&J. Confirm that Chimaira targeted him. No one else did.
Night 3 - Targeted Bowser. Got no result.

Faranor, go.

[Faranor]

vanilla.

only mr smith left i think.

[Mr Smith]

Wait for it...
*drumroll begins*






I am a VT.
I highly doubt a town roleblocker in a 12p setup.
Chimaira, MC is over. Now please give your reasons, because your worthless stalling did not please me.
The scumteam is {Chimaira or Bowser}/Faranor/TomandJerry btw. I am slightly biased because IceCream's name is hilarious, and because I prefer PPtown over Bowsertown (don't like either but).
This game.

[Faranor]

hey pp why didn't you watch the claimed tracker night 2?

[IceCream]

Either Mr.Smith or Bowser has to be scum. How can they both get roleblocked at the same night?
I find it suspicious that Mr.Smith didn't comment on Bowser despite the fact that if he was town, he would be almost confirmed that Bowser is scum.

~Ice.

I thought Smith was Vig getting roleblocked and I messed up the Nights.

At this point. I believe there to be one scum among the PRs ( PP's claim look the fishiest ) and two among the VTs ( most likely Smith and Faranor ). Thus, I'm happiest with lynching Faranor today.

~Ice.

[Mr Smith]

I agree with the above post except for the fact that I'm scum. Faranor is and the watcher really made odd night actions. Why would anyone watch bowser?

So, that's two in favor of voting Faranor. Now, If I'm wrong here, I'm going to tunnel anyway, so I can just as well vote

vote Faranor

[Faraday]

Why would anyone not watch Bowser? Or more to the point not watch him night 2 and then watch him night 3. Tom and Jerry is a really odd choice for night 2, so yeah explains.

[Mr Smith]

IceCream: If you didn't get the memo, I fakeclaimed vig to draw the roleblocker's block. I'd like to think it worked and that Chimaira is town blocking like a smart person, but I really don't like a Town Roleblocker claim in a 12p game.

[Chimaira]

@Mr Smith, holding off discussion until after the mass claim is over isn't stalling, it's the appropriate play. Fortunately I'm less interested in what pleases you than I am in finding scum but it would still have been better if you'd waited. I also don't particularly like your vote coming this early in LyLo (especially not with that justification); if you're aware that you're likely to tunnel then it's something you can do something about especially as you're part of a hydra. If you're convinced with your case I can live with it (as I don't have much choice) but that sort of play loses games when it comes from town.

As for whether or not you think that it's reasonable to put a town roleblocker in a mini I guess all that I can say is that I didn't make the setup but I am aware that people think that roeblockers are an inherently scum role; if I was a scum roleblocker I'd probably claim something like jailkeeper which people seem to find more likely to come from town. As I'm town and not interested in making gambitty fake claims I'm just going with the role I've got.

Night one we blocked Bowser because they'd been largely a non-entity; they would have been a decent choice for a cop investigation or a track if we had one. The other player we gave serious consideration was Pineapple; when our block didn't seem to stop the kill Bowser's chances of being scum were reduced slightly so Pineapple was where we started day two.

Bowser is almost certainly a power role (they knew they were blocked) and tracker is pretty believable. It's possible that they're a scum PR and we do seem to have more than I'd expect but in any case blocking them hadn't stopped the kill (unless there was a vig or SK or some such, in which case the extra kill the next night should have given that away) so they weren't a good target for night two.

Night two we went with our best bet for scum, TomAndJerry. The other options we considered were IceCream and Professor Paradox (Sotty7's first choice was still Professor Paradox but I talked her into TomAndJerry.) When that probably didn't stop the kill (or on the off chance that it had and scum would probably switch killers anyhow) we went with Professor Paradox on night three. There was some chance that Mr Smith really did try to vig Bowser night two and that FourTigers stopped it as the bodyguard but I very much hoped that if that was true he'd listen when I warned that a missed vig shot could end the game for town.

@Professor Paradox, I'd also like to know why you chose to watch TomAndJerry night two. Were you expecting them to get killed for some reason? I'd have thought that either Bowser or Mr Smith (both of whom would seem to be somewhat likely to draw kills or roleblocks) would have been much better choices for a watch (or a stronger player overall if you thought that scum were going to ignore the twilight claims.)

Re: IceCream and the double role blocking business to start the day. Unless scum also have a roleblocker (which I don't think is all that likely though I suppose it's possible) there's really no way that comment could have revealed knowledge that they wouldn't have; that should be a null tell.

Prior to the claims our best two guesses for scum were TomAndJerry and Professor Paradox (with IceCream coming in at third.) Sotty7 and I haven't had a chance to connect and talk about the claims yet but hopefully we'll do that today. I know that the vanilla claims won't do anything to reduce her suspicion and I need to see what she thinks about the watcher claim.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[bv310]

Day 4's First Official Vote Count!

Faranor (L-3): Mr Smith

Not voting: Chimaira, IceCream, Professor Paradox, Bowser, TomAndJerry, Faranor

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch or no-lynch.

Deadline is going to be set for Thursday, December 9, 2010 at about 6:30 pm.

[Bowser]

The power role claims and results fitting together so nicely doesn't sit very well with me...
I think Smith is right - town having a doc (I assume that's what bodyguard is) AND a role blocker is really powerful and pretty unlikely.

But Mr Smith,
if Chimaira & Tom&Jerry are scum together and PP is not scum, why did Chimaira target T&J on night 2 (confirmed by PP-watcher)? Need a rethink here, I think.

~Tal

[Mr Smith]

look that role up...


Anyway, trying to see if I have this all correct:

Faranor: VT
Smith: VT
PP: watcher
T&J: VT
Bowser: Tracker
Ice: VT
Chimaira: RB

Now, a rb (look it up), can "protect" someone, and if that person dies, the BG dies instead.

Tracker and watcher on one side is possible, but would make the town strong. The most likely setup here would be:

town:

1 BG
1 RB
1 Tracker/watcher
6 VT

Scum:

Watcher/Tracker
2 goons.


This is based on balance arguments, experience, and scumhunting. Which means that Chimaira is town, at most one of PP/Bowser is scum (and currently I'm leaning Bowser, for his claiming and because my partner is convinced he is scum, but that I'm not that sure). Ice is obvtown.

Which leaves a T&J, Faranor (obvscumread for over a game-day), and one of PP and Bowser

. I intend to reread interactions, but I think the thing to do is lynch one of T&J, or what has my preference, Faranor, and let the information roles be sorted out later.

[Bowser]

Admittedly I haven't played a lot lately and my idea of balance may be rusty, but why wouldn't it be:

town:
BG
tracker
watcher
6 VT

scum:
RB
2 goons

[Bowser]

Pressed submit too soon.

Thanks i looked the role up, btw. So the bodyguard - Masterspy - might have died protecting someone else.

Still unsure which way our vote is going to go. Waiting for Prof Paradox's answer about their night 2 choice.

~Tal

[Mr Smith]

Admittedly I haven't played a lot lately and my idea of balance may be rusty, but why wouldn't it be:

town:
BG
tracker
watcher
6 VT

scum:
RB
2 goons

Well, town is quite powerfull compared to the scum. Further, the RB wouldn't be of a lot of use if the tracker claimed so it is rather a bad solution to any breaking strategies that may arise when scum gets down to 1 player. The setup with one information role with the scum is better then this one (though this one might be used by some mods). The most important reason, is the I think Chimaira is town, so it really doesn't make sense that both PP and you are town while Chimaira wouldn't be.

[TomAndJerry]

So me and Lat were discussing things over in our QT, it was a slow process as we couldn't sync up to properly exchange views, but at least its done now.

We have a truly mixed read on Chimaira at the moment. Myself, I think Troll is scummy, partially based on past experience with him and Sotty7, protown. Tom thinks the opposite is true. To be fair to one another, we're not touching this player slot unless one of us convinces the other (else we end up being a schizophrenic).

I'm not very sure about Mr. Smith at this point, Tom seems to think him a bit odd.

I have null reads on both IceCream and Faranor, Tom has a scum read on IceCream and a light town read on Faranor.

Which leaves us at Bowser and Professor Paradox. Bowser is my top pick for scum, Professor Paradox is also high on the list. We seem to agree on Bowser being suspicious, but if left alone my partner would totally go for IceCream. Tom thinks Professor Paradox is starting to look scummy.

-----------

About the massclaim: I personally find it suspicious that Town would have both a watcher and tracker, I would question the balance issues that could arise.

And surprise surprise, Bowser and Professor Paradox are both people we'd vote for. I think one of them is lying. Most probably they're not scum together.

-Jerry

[Faranor]

still want elli to answer my questions. watcher and tracker being on the same side is p unlikely, as an information role like tracker and watcher work p well together in theory, which is once again why i'm confused by their night choices, it looks like those of a scum watcher (cmon tom and jerry were never ever gonna be nightkilled if their town)

[Chimaira]

Now the holiday weekend is over I've managed to catch up with Troll and talk the mass claim over. I think PP is a scum watcher, I see no other reason for them to have watched TnJ on night two. We had a claimed vig and tracker in thread, who as targets, were infinitely better choices than scummy looking TnJ. I really want an explanation on that. This probably leans more towards Bowser being town the more I think about it. Mostly because I don't see a scum team of a tracker AND watcher.

I'm still finding TnJ pretty scummy, their reluctance to give the town much of a voting record is very suspect. Combine that with the fact PP watched them on night two and I think we have a scum pairing here.

Icecream's double blocking post is bad, but what's worse is the hydra distancing they are playing in thread now. The whole “I dunno the other guy said it” is pretty weak.

Also the lack of comment by Faranor on Mr Smith's vote on them is looking very bad when this is more than likely a LYLO situation. I would think a townie being voted in that situation would be much more anxious to engage the vote. Even if just a little. Ignoring it doesn't feel like a natrual townie reaction.

Right now I am liking PP, TnJ and one of Ice/Faranor as the scum.

~Sotty

[IceCream]

Just so these are all in one place:

N1, followed Chimeira, we were "unable to determine" if he went anywhere
N2, followed IceCream,

he went nowhere

N3, followed Crab Canon, he went nowhere

Those saying I could possibly be scum are wrong.

[Bowser]

IceCream,

If I'm not mistaken there's a distinct possibility that some of the scum can stay home at night.

But that aside, why are you using the words of another player who you presumably don't know the alignment of as any kind of hard evidence? It's like you know we're town...

~Tal

[IceCream]

If I'm not mistaken there's a distinct possibility that some of the scum can stay home at night.

Can that happen and there still be a kill?

But that aside, why are you using the words of another player who you presumably don't know the alignment of as any kind of hard evidence? It's like you know we're town...

~Tal

If you were scum, then I doubt you would have tracked me and even if you are, I doubt you would have admitted to it because that confirms me as town in LyLo. I'm hedging my bets that you're town.

[Professor Paradox]

Why would anyone not watch Bowser? Or more to the point not watch him night 2 and then watch him night 3. Tom and Jerry is a really odd choice for night 2, so yeah explains.

The answer to that is also the answer to this:

Hey, Professor Paradox?

Three minutes elapsed between your vote and my asking you this:

PP, your ISO 42 essentially just says, "I don't know why PP took the stance he did on meta." That's not an answer. I want Ellibereth himself to come in this thread and explain why he backtracked his stance on meta. Why did he refuse to claim? Which posts were his and which were

Speaking of which, can you explain what you meant by the discussion about "reactions"? Paraphrase it some more. Ellibereth made it sound like he did it mostly for the lulz. What reactions did he say he was hoping to draw?

Any reason you didn't answer this immediately?

Right after the hammer, I had to run off to class, then pack for my Thanksgiving trip. We missed Bowser's "in before lynch lock" claim pre-N2. Having targeted Crab N1, we wanted to Watch the non-Crab person most likely to get night-killed by our proposed scumteam Faranor/IceCream/MrSmith, which was T&J. Upon review for Watch targets over N3, we found Bowser's Tracker claim and Watched him (and were RBed in the process).

As for the answer to MasterSpy's original question inside the nest, the in-hydra discussion of "reactions" had to do with paying attention to when Lat was online, seeing if he responded right away or "went to discuss with hydra buddiez", among other things. Anything else is direct question for Elli, so I can't answer.

IceCream member who wrote posts 671 and 673, have you ever been in a game with a Tracker before? You are not cleared.

-ML