Firefly Mafia - Voyage over

[NanookTheWolf]

He ususally does...

Do you really think that comment was necessary?

Nonetheless, not that I see any importance to it or anything, but NO I haven't seen the show.

Unvote: Emptyger, Vote: Vismajor

[Mr. Whedon]

Vote Count

- HOPEFULLY ACCURATE...

NanookTheWolf- 6 (Otaku376, Thok, Dragon Phoenix, d8p, vismajor, bloojay)
VisMaior- 3 (the silent speaker, armlx, NanooktheWolf)
Yosarian2- 2 (Fuldu, Peacebringer)
~deathsquiggle~- 1 (Mini Neo)
Peacebringer- 1 (Iammars)
armlx- 1 (EmpTyger)
thok- 1 (BabyJesus)

Not voting (2): Yosarian2, ~deathsquiggle~,

9 to lynch.

I'll

prod Nanook tonight, and

talk to Dour about a deadline when I see him.

Edit: Oh look, there he is!

[VisMaior]

Do you really think that comment was necessary?

Well, dont feel offended, its just that you DO.

[VisMaior]

Oh, and if you see Dour, tell him to chech his TWSOGMM games...

[the silent speaker]

I've decided I dislike the company on the VisMaior bandwagon enough to shift.

Unvote: VisMaior, vote: Armlx.

Him over Nanook because I'd rather keep it from being a one-horse race.

[Yosarian2]

With the Nanook bandwagon, it seems a little wierd how fast it was moving, but Nanook's total lack of response or surprise to the fact that he has 6 votes on him also seems really strange. If you log on, and find out that you suddenly have 6 votes on you, why would you not even mention it?

[Fuldu]

Hmmm...well, it can be useful to figure out what we've lost. Anyone want to guess what role Shepard Book might have had?

With the Nanook bandwagon, it seems a little wierd how fast it was moving, but Nanook's total lack of response or surprise to the fact that he has 6 votes on him also seems really strange. If you log on, and find out that you suddenly have 6 votes on you, why would you not even mention it?

Between trying to start up role speculation and indiscriminate finger-pointing, both at Nanook and at those on his bandwagon, all without a placed vote, I think Yosarian2 deserves more attention than we're giving him. At any rate, my vote won't be moving any time soon.

[bloojay]

hmmm....well, i know Nanook has been inactive in all of his other games. Perhaps a prod, Mod? Maybe that'd pull something up.

[BabyJesus]

He ususally does...

Do you really think that comment was necessary?

Nonetheless, not that I see any importance to it or anything, but NO I haven't seen the show.

Unvote: Emptyger, Vote: Vismajor

no claim?

unvote, vote nanook

I wasn;t gonna vote him for lurking when he ws doing that everywhere, but checking in and no comment on having 6 votes?

Lets make it 7 votes.

[BabyJesus]

Hmmm...well, it can be useful to figure out what we've lost. Anyone want to guess what role Shepard Book might have had?

With the Nanook bandwagon, it seems a little wierd how fast it was moving, but Nanook's total lack of response or surprise to the fact that he has 6 votes on him also seems really strange. If you log on, and find out that you suddenly have 6 votes on you, why would you not even mention it?

Between trying to start up role speculation and indiscriminate finger-pointing, both at Nanook and at those on his bandwagon, all without a placed vote, I think Yosarian2 deserves more attention than we're giving him. At any rate, my vote won't be moving any time soon.

Yosarian always does that kind of stuff. As scum and town.

[Yosarian2]

Hmmm...well, it can be useful to figure out what we've lost. Anyone want to guess what role Shepard Book might have had?

With the Nanook bandwagon, it seems a little wierd how fast it was moving, but Nanook's total lack of response or surprise to the fact that he has 6 votes on him also seems really strange. If you log on, and find out that you suddenly have 6 votes on you, why would you not even mention it?

Between trying to start up role speculation and indiscriminate finger-pointing, both at Nanook and at those on his bandwagon, all without a placed vote, I think Yosarian2 deserves more attention than we're giving him. At any rate, my vote won't be moving any time soon.

There is nothing wrong with speculating about which role are already dead. Now, speculating about what role names might be in the game or anything like that can be tricky as it can help the scum role-claim, but there's nothing wrong with trying to figure out what roles are dead; having an idea of what we might have lost can help the town plan stratagy, and it's as good a way to start a day one conversation as any. I have always disagreed with the silly "speculation=scum tell" line of thought, because trying to get some idea of what the set up is really is a useful thing for the town to do over the course of the game, and you can sometimes get some scum tells from those conversations.

Before his most recent post, I didn't like the Nanook bandwagon because I don't think lurker pressure on someone who's inactive on several threads is very productive; now I'm more suspicious of Nanook, for the reasons I just explained. I find his lack of response odd, and I've seen scum try to just ignore a bandwagon on them before. I'm not going to join that bandwagon just yet, because it's already fairly large and I want to see some kind of actual response from him first, but if I was going to vote right now, that's where my vote would be.

[Fuldu]

There is nothing wrong with speculating about which role are already dead.

I disagree, for three reasons. a) since we're never going to know whether or not we're right about a speculation regarding a dead player (barring a player with some particular knowledge, a co-mason, for example), there's really not much value to any suggestions that we throw out. Anybody who makes decisions based on the theory that we

might

now be short a doctor, or a cop, or a vig, is probably stretching pretty hard to reach a conclusion. If you

know

that the town has lost a cop, then it's useful to take that into consideration in planning a strategy. Otherwise, you're creating complications that aren't actually going to serve any valuable purpose.

b) Players are less likely to suggest their own role as a likely role for the dead player, especially roles that aren't likely to be duplicated in the game. So when somebody suggests that Shepherd Book might have been a doctor, scum can shift that player down their list of likely candidates for being the doctor and target somebody else. And this sort of reasoning is almost always more useful to scum than to town.

c) Speculation of one sort (in this case on the dead roles) very frequently shifts into speculation of every sort (say about what roles might be in the game which, as you've noted, is dangerous). For example, when one player suggests that Shepherd Book might have been the doctor, the natural response would be to say that Simon Tam seems a more probable figure to be the doctor. And right there we've moved from speculation you consider less questionable to speculation you consider more questionable.

As for your comments on the notion that speculation = scum tell, I don't totally disagree and I try to consider speculation on a case-by-case basis. However, the important point in what you say is regarding collecting that information "over the course of the game." On day one, very little communal information exists to aid town in producing that speculation. So, any individual player's speculation is going to be far more colored, percentage-wise, by the information that only they have access to (their role and their night one choice/actions, where applicable). Because of that, speculation on day one is far less likely to produce pro-town results and far more likely to aid scum in identifying power players.

So I tend to view day one speculation as a more likely indicator of scumminess than later speculation would be. That was enough for me to place an early vote on you which, with only one other player on the bandwagon and no patently scummy alternatives, I've seen no obvious reason to move up to this point. That coupled with a sketchy post regarding Nanook was enough for me to make my argument publicly and suggest that other people vote for you, as well.

[armlx]

TSS: Why me? Am I suddenly a more popular (overall in every game) day 1 lynch then BabyJ (if I am, I feel pseudo-honored).

[Yosarian2]

(shrug) Whatever. I don't agree with you on speculation, simply because what I was asking was basically a question to those who have seen the show if there was any obveous role that he might have been. I tend to think it's fairly harmless day 1 conversation which can end up helping the town, but we can agree to disagree on that.

However, this is the second time you've thrown this comment around without actually explaining it, which I find to be much more interesting:

That coupled with a sketchy post regarding Nanook was enough for me to make my argument publicly and suggest that other people vote for you, as well.

What was "skechy" about my post regarding Nanook? Do you disagree that the way he basically ignored a large bandwagon on him is strange and possibly suspicious?

[Fuldu]

I think making comments that are suspicious of both an individual and of those on a bandwagon for that individual is a common scum tactic of playing the field, especially when no vote is placed. That's what I mean about the comment being sketchy. It isn't reflective of the quality of either half of your suspicions but just of the general way in which you expressed your concerns. I thought that was well explained the first time and so I didn't clarify it when I brought it up again.

[NanookTheWolf]

Well, Babyjesus .. considering that I only had 6 votes out of 9 didn't really make me

nervous

so to speak. I expected to have a lot of votes since I have been missing in most of my games for the past week. So there was no shocker there that I'd have a bandwagon, which is why I didn't even comment on it.

I'm back now, so if you all feel that your votes are good where they are at, then so be it.

[Thok]

Feh,

unvote Nanook

, assuming he continues to contribute to the game (and I haven't been much better either for the last week in this game).

vote Oatku376

mainly because I'm surprised he's not participating more, given that he admits to being a big fan of the show.

[BabyJesus]

Well, Babyjesus .. considering that I only had 6 votes out of 9 didn't really make me

nervous

so to speak. I expected to have a lot of votes since I have been missing in most of my games for the past week. So there was no shocker there that I'd have a bandwagon, which is why I didn't even comment on it.

I'm back now, so if you all feel that your votes are good where they are at, then so be it.

already ran ya up, might as well get a claim and go from there

[armlx]

I like BabyJ's logic, but I think it is bad. I guess I'm just lazy and smart.....

[Otaku376]

I think there's a big distinction between being a fan of theme and having reason to participate. It's not like we are role playing. I will admit though, that my participation has been less than stellar. It did not help that the game got off slow, and then I didn't mind my vote on Nanook while I waited for his return. It doesn't help that I havn't played in games with the majority of players nor have I even played in a while nor have I been sick. But I digress, this is not the place for excuses.
I am gonna go ahead and

unvote Nanook

and

vote PeaceBringer

for what as far as I could tell as wrongfully questioning the participation of Yosarian and not even posting an 'oops' after like 3 of us were 'wtf mate'

[the silent speaker]

TSS: Why me? Am I suddenly a more popular (overall in every game) day 1 lynch then BabyJ (if I am, I feel pseudo-honored).

You were the other person on the VisMaior wagon, which felt scummy to me. That left me with a choice between you and Nanook, and I preferred to not add to the largest bandwagon.

I like BabyJ's logic, but I think it is bad. I guess I'm just lazy and smart.

Maybe render this paragraph in intelligible?

[armlx]

There was a band wagon on Vis????? When did this occur?

[EmpTyger]

[Came down with a cold and still am rather busy with end-of-semester work. May still be posting infrequently, thought hopefully not for too much longer.]

I really don’t like how DP, d8P, VisM, and bloojay voted for Nanook… for lurking… when he also wasn’t posting in any other thread… on Thanksgiving week?! Especially right after I listed 4 concrete reasons against armlx; each of which was much better than anything against Nanook, and each of which received no attention whatsoever despite the intense focus placed on Nanook.


DP:
You began the bandwagon against Nanook to lurkerprod him. Why haven’t you said anything since his return?


d8P:
You were the second on the lurkerprod bandwagon. Kind of ironic how after that you lurked the entire week, isn’t it?


VisM:
This is the defense you gave for your vote of Nanook:

No real reason for anyone. This game started slow, and then fell back.

As you are still voting Nanook, do you still believe this to be true?


bloojay:

hmmm....well, i know Nanook has been inactive in all of his other games. Perhaps a prod, Mod? Maybe that'd pull something up.

Can you explain why you are still voting Nanook? Because I can’t figure out why you would have voted him in [85], and then make [107] without unvoting.


armlx:
I listed 4 reasons in [79] I was suspicious of you. You’ve only addressed one (your response to Fuldu’s question) and even that reply is hardly sufficient.


Yosarian:
I agree with you about both Nanook’s bandwagon, and about what he did choose to reply to in [100]. However, I agree with Fuldu about speculation: I can’t see any use for the town in speculating about what abilities Book might have had. In any case, no, there isn’t really any obvious role he would have.


Thok:
The primary purpose was as Yosarian outlined in [56].
I did have a secondary purpose. I also was a little surprised by the initial speculation about the nightkills. Specifically, when I heard the knifing, my first thoughts were River and Niska’s henchman (jet engine guy). So I seemed a little surprised to hear others rather than these in speculations. However- I actually don’t think much weight should be assigned to this. For one thing, it’s only supposed to be a very weak tell. More importantly, I think there’s more fruitful evidence from the vote patterns and activity of the past couple pages. So, it’s probably something to keep in mind, but I think there are better things to focus on, at least for where we are today.

(I will admit there is a little more to this. I’m actually trying to decide whether I should make a full roleclaim. But I need to think on it *much* more. Sorry to tease.)

By the way, why would you [“be tempted to”] suggest a deadline in [97]? Because a deadline certainly would not help the town.

[Thok]

By the way, why would you [“be tempted to”] suggest a deadline in [97]? Because a deadline certainly would not help the town.

I'd want a retractible deadline obviously, but we need to get more people participating in the game.

As for the speculation, remember that not every role has the same information as you do, and that different people may reasons to suspect different factions.

Incidentally, for now my speculation on specific roles and game mechanics should be considered fairly sketchy; I have not yet read all of the episode pages on wiki.

[Yosarian2]

I think making comments that are suspicious of both an individual and of those on a bandwagon for that individual is a common scum tactic of playing the field, especially when no vote is placed. That's what I mean about the comment being sketchy. It isn't reflective of the quality of either half of your suspicions but just of the general way in which you expressed your concerns. I thought that was well explained the first time and so I didn't clarify it when I brought it up again.

I never said I was suspicious about the people on the Nanook bandwagon at all, I think the most I said about that was that the bandwagon "was wierd".

In post 87, I said it seemed like a bad idea to bandwagon a lurker who was lurking in several threads. Later, after Nanook gave that strange non-response to the bandwagon, I said:

With the Nanook bandwagon, it seems a little wierd how fast it was moving, but Nanook's total lack of response or surprise to the fact that he has 6 votes on him also seems really strange. If you log on, and find out that you suddenly have 6 votes on you, why would you not even mention it?{/quote]

I don't see how that's "indescriminate finger pointing". I still thought the bandwagon was a little strange, but I was clearly mostly suspicious of Nanook's response to it at that point.