Mini 1075 - Fishtown Mafia

[DavidParker]

If you're the best player, if you're town, who is scum? If you're scum.. Well.. Who's your scum buddies?

[havingfitz]

If you're the best player, if you're town, who is scum? If you're scum.. Well.. Who's your scum buddies?

Who was your question directed at?

[DavidParker]

Well the self-proclaimed best player!

[singersigner]

singersigner, care to explain?

This is an acknowledgement post. I'll get back to it when I'm off work/finish homework for the night.

It's also weird to me that I wasn't mentioned in her 218 at all.

Someone get jealous?
No but really, I'm not sure why that's weird...I didn't address everyone...did I?

[Fishythefish]

Day 1, Votecount 11

Empking (3) - havingfitz, AdumbroDeus, Lrdwhyt
fallen angel (3) – Rhinox, singersigner, Empking
DavidParker (2) – fallen angel, Nocmen
AdumbroDeus (1) - DavidParker
Nocmen (1) - Incognito

Not Voting (1) - cruelty

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline in 2 days.

[Incognito]

Regarding the Rhinox - me exchange...what are your thoughts on Rhinox's strawman of my suspicions towards Emp and his continued distortion of my position on Emp?

From what I gathered from it, it seemed like you were and have been calling Empking's mass claim proposal "scummy", and I thought that you contorted what it was that Rhinox was saying a bit as a result. I mean, Rhinox's position seems to be as follows:

"scum don't typically like the limelight -- pushing for a mass claim on page 1 gives a person instant attention that scum normally wouldn't want -- thus Empking is more likely to be town than scum for pushing something that made him the center of attention."

You turned Rhinox's thoughts into "Empking did something too scummy to be scum therefore he's town," which just isn't the same thing at all. So I personally wasn't sure if you just didn't see the difference between the two statements or if it was something else.

The rest of the exchange seems to go on about how you basically contradicted yourself for making a comment that implies that if you're town, you're vanilla when you shouldn't have implied that since you seemed to be so against mass claim in the first place. I do agree that it is a bit of a contradiction on your part, but I don't find you scummy for it at this time.

Someone get jealous?
No but really, I'm not sure why that's weird...I didn't address everyone...did I?

Not jealous, no. I just found it weird since portions of my summary post did include how I found you suspicious. If you were town, I'd think you'd want to question me about that rather than completely ignore it.

[Incognito]

Mod:

Has fallen angel been prodded? It's been awhile since he's posted here and deadline is fast approaching.

[Fishythefish]

Thanks for the heads up. fallen angel and cruelty are being prodded.

[havingfitz]

I just ISO'd Fallen Angel and I do not see the case on him. I would definitely not have him near the top of my scum list...like I'm leaning towards for those who are on his wagon at the moment.

@ Incognito...actually...I would not be voting someone based on suggesting a MC on it's own. I agree that just suggesting a massclaim is not a good tell in either direction. It's the rest of Emp's play so far (which in large part has been posts related to the MC) which I find suspicious. Which is strengthened by his self preservation vote on FA for being the "only wagon with decent reasoning behind it." The 'reasoning' for which as I said, I fail to see.

[Nocmen]

DP: If you think the FA wagon is the only one that is worth going after....why are you not voting for him?

[Nocmen]

Also, I have my last final tomorrow afternoon. Following that, tomorrow night I will get a thorough reread together to get all of my thoughts certain and organized for the deadline.

[cruelty]

yeah ok sorry life's getting on top of me a bit. been battling flu the last couple days.

cruelty's check-in post didn't really offer much either, especially considering the fact that deadline is approaching rather quickly. Not happy about that obv.

this = "bad vibes" because..?

not really interested in hf vs rhinox for the most part, except;

Anyways, the point is, there is no reason for any town to say "I have nothing to claim".

+1.

Ok, I think I wouldn't be aaasss opposed to a mass claim, if DP wasn't in this game. He's fake-claimed in every game I've seen him in, as a townie. If we did a mass claim at this point, I guarantee he'll eff it up in all sorts of ways for us, scum or not.

mm, scaremongering.

vote singer

[singersigner]

Not jealous, no. I just found it weird since portions of my summary post did include how I found you suspicious. If you were town, I'd think you'd want to question me about that rather than completely ignore it.

Can you point out what exactly it was that I ignored?

Also...I don't know what scaremongering is...

[Rhinox]

@Rhinox: I think your method just seems weird to me so far. I mean, when I come into a game, I'll pretty much only stick my neck out and call people "town" if there are things in their play that genuinely gave me a townish vibe. It could be gut or something else they've said or done or whatever, but I usually have something that I could point to that says, yeah, this guy is probably town. You seem to pick people who you think are scum and then insert the rest of your reads as prob-town unless you got a really strong vibe that you thought they were town in which case they're strong town? I've just never heard of that - people who I have no read on usually go in the neutral category for me. Is this really typical of you?

I have called empking and adumbro town - empking for his MC suggestion, and adumbro for the way he attacked empking. I have called FA scum because he made me think he is scum. If it makes you feel better, you can call everyone else neutral. I just thought it wouldn't hurt to give a little more insight into how I was thinking, even if some of it was based on nothing but gut at the time.

As for is this typical of me? I don't know. At the start of this game, I had just returned to the site after being gone for a while. So, my play has been a work in progress. I would say that lately I've been going more with my instincts and sticking to them, for better or worse. /invitation 11 and Mad world: time travel mafia are the 2 games I've been in that are completed since I returned to the site if you want to check them out. Oh, and Open 231: My Name is Earl, a quick little game. Almost forgot about that one.

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Regarding the Rhinox - me exchange...what are your thoughts on Rhinox's strawman of my suspicions towards Emp and his continued distortion of my position on Emp?

You just going to ignore that #229 exists then? I mean thats fine if you want to drop it, I was starting to get the feeling I was arguing with a townie anyways, but not if you're going to ignore it and throw around accusations that I already answered to and force me to answer again. Because I didn't strawman anybody, and I don't believe I've distorted your position on Emp either.

edit: err, yeah, what incog said

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Lrdwhyt:

Except he wouldn't know that he would be the center of attention immediately when he first proposed the idea. It doesn't really mean much.
<snip>
It is conceivable that he thought it would succeed.
<snip>
Once again, he didn't necessarily know what would follow his suggestion. That does not mean anything.

I disagree with you. While Empking might have thought he could have eventually got the town to agree with him and he might even think mass claiming is the best strategy, he didn't even try to back up his proposal with solid reasoning or really try to convince anyone. That tells me the proposal was more of a "kick start the game" type of proposal, rather than an earnest proposal. I mean, do you really think scum goes "oh hai mass claim time we should do it because its the best plan because it is" and just expects everyone to follow along without question? That'd be naive for empking to think that, and its lazy scumhunting to think that makes empking scum.

I somehow doubt that. Empking keeps arguing that a mass claim is a good idea, when it clearly isn't. If he were town and reaction testing, I'd expect him to at least drop the mass claim arguments and provide some sort of analysis of the information he's gotten...but he hasn't.

see, right here. So you're saying you expect scum to keep arguing for an unpopular course of action that has half the town calling for his head?

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Also...I don't know what scaremongering is...

Its basically an appeal to game-fears. Such as, (for example only, obv), "Empking is a such a good scum player we have to lynch him otherwise he will manipulate us all!!! I don't think its a very good tell though in most cases. More of a wikitell.

Cruelty, what do you think of adumbro's early (paraphrasing) "Empking can easily manipulate us because he has a scummy!" outburst? Isn't that scaremongering as well? Why didn't you mention that at all? If I were going to vote someone for scare mongering and not give any other reasoning, adumbro is a much bigger offender.

---------------------------------------------------

I just ISO'd Fallen Angel and I do not see the case on him. I would definitely not have him near the top of my scum list...like I'm leaning towards for those who are on his wagon at the moment.

Big surprise there

So wait, we go through the whole back and forth earlier about how you think scum would "at the very least I would stay quiet on the subject of a MC for some length of time to see where it was headed. Rather than immediately jump to oppose it." and then you don't see

anything

in FA's iso that mimics that?

[cruelty]

you're basically saying that if DP claims we can't take it seriously. setting a precedent of distrust before it's even an issue.

[DavidParker]

She's done that in other games as well (when she flipped town), although i still find her as probable-scum in this game, just saying that shouldn't be used a scum-tell in itself.

[Rhinox]

you're basically saying that if DP claims we can't take it seriously. setting a precedent of distrust before it's even an issue.

Cruelty, what do you think of adumbro's early (paraphrasing) "Empking can easily manipulate us because he has a scummy!" outburst? Isn't that scaremongering as well? Why didn't you mention that at all? If I were going to vote someone for scare mongering and not give any other reasoning, adumbro is a much bigger offender.

[Fishythefish]

Day 1, Votecount 12

Empking (3) - havingfitz, AdumbroDeus, Lrdwhyt
fallen angel (3) – Rhinox, singersigner, Empking
DavidParker (2) – fallen angel, Nocmen
AdumbroDeus (1) - DavidParker
Nocmen (1) - Incognito
singersigner (1) - cruelty

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline in 19.5 hours. No majority means no lynch.

[Nocmen]

Okay, so I'm going through the whole thread again, commenting on each person in chronological order as they are impacted and I feel are notable posts, and then a summary of each afterwards. Trying to ignore most of the talk about the Mass Claim, as that is practically everyone vs Empking

fallen angel

-won't lynch people because of bad play until it starts hurting the town.
-seems a bit insulted that he wasn't mentioned as an "experienced player"

Conclusion:
Hasn't actually posted anything besides his reasons why he thinks DP is scum in regards to opinions on players. Unsure of where to place him, I'm not really seeing much reason on the wagon on him, though it is interesting how much DP and Emp are thinking the same thing. Neutral for now, but I definitely need to hear more from him.

incognito

-Replaces in for confid
-Agrees with using WIFOM to think Emp is town
-Has bad vibes from me, singer, and cruelty at the start.
-Doesn't like my attack on DP
-Thinks singer posts but doesn't give much content.
-Thinks DP is townlike even though he didn't give too many reasons for his claims.

Conclusion: I feel he is leaning more towards town, but I also can see how his experience can make it helpful to pretend otherwise. Neutral for now.

Adumbro

-Scared of game balance for 11 man game
-Doesn't want Emp in LYLO (Why though?)
-Thinks that if we were stronger players, we would quickly lynch Emp for the MC idea
-Thinks experience levels are a distraction
-Says we should ignore WIFOM because we have a different understanding of the term.

Conclusion: Seems to have a small bit of arrogance, but at the same time says terms contradicting himself as such. Leaning scum

Empking

-Suggests MC (We should all pretty much remember this :p)
-Votes Lrd for voting home
-Thinks FA is the only decent wagon.

Conclusion: Neutral, because the only read I have on him is the MC idea which I feel is WIFOM and can't be taken for granted.

Rhinox

-replaces in for xenon
-Votes FA because of contradiction
-Thinks AD is town

Conclusion: While not fully clear at times (reminding me of my play), seems to be leaning town.

DavidParker

-Says Emp is prolly town first post, and he will call people town for no reason
-Votes Adumbro for no reason (Maybe for the not wanting Emp in lylo?)
-Thinks Emp has other motives for D1 Claim
-Votes FA for having jester speculation? Note at this time of the vote, the people voting for him are FA, singer, and myself.
-Post 125: Says HF and FA are a combo to go with, saying we need to look at people on his and Emps wagons
-Thinks HF is town.
-Votes AD for "setting up two mislynches"
-Thinks singer is my scum buddy. Note at this point he does consider us both scummy, but has a vote on AD.

Conclusion: I have no F'ing clue. He has barely given any reasons for his claims, and gives a few votes, while saying otherwise. I'm currently voting for him, due to this as well as my personal opinion as players who could hurt the game. I have a hunch though with something I've noticed, and for now, I'll

Unvote

cruelty

-Votes Emp because he thinks the MC is a "massive stumbling block"

Conclusion: Neutral as can be.

singersinger

-Has a policy lynch on DP (which he clarifies is a random vote)
-Dissappears for a while
-Think I may be scum because I "let us get distracted from the WIFOM argument"
-Confused me with AD.
-Unvotes DP because he says DP is playing a good game.
-Votes FA because rhinox says so
-Thinks AD is town because he thought he was buddying with Emp and now is voting for Emp?
-Keeps saying that DP would for sure false claim in a MC

Conclusion: Seems a bit convoluted and hard to follow at times, also seems very very afraid of DP. Leaning Scum

LrdWhyt

-Calls out whether Emp's idea of hte MC can be considered WIFOM or not
-Votes Emp because emp still didn't give a good reason for the MC

Conclusion: Leaning scum

havingfitz

-Mentions in a MC the scummier players go first, not the people who Emp thinks would be best at lying.
-Votes for emp, has it more as out of the ordinary is vote worthy than consistent poor play.
-Thinks Rhinox is inconsistent is his analysis.
-Calls Rhinox out for a strawman.

Conclusion: Leaning Town

Overall, I don't see the argument against FA besides him currenly not having posted for a bit, and DP I'm willing to give a night to explain himself a bit more.

Of the people who are leaning scum, I feel that VOTE: singer is the best target for today.

[cruelty]

@rhinox

sorry missed that.

yes, AD is also scaremongering, but i tend to think that singer is being more opportunistic - there's clearly some kind of support for a DP policy lynch, people tend to agree that he may well be detrimental for town. thus, singer gives me worse vibes.

[DavidParker]

I like nocmen's last post. Your not singer's scum buddy after all it seems! A fallen or singer lynch seems to be a good outcome for today.

[havingfitz]

You just going to ignore that #229 exists then? I mean thats fine if you want to drop it, I was starting to get the feeling I was arguing with a townie anyways, but not if you're going to ignore it and throw around accusations that I already answered to and force me to answer again. Because I didn't strawman anybody, and I don't believe I've distorted your position on Emp either.

re: post 229. I missed it initially and when I did start to put a response together I was headed towards a wall text that was IMO going to be of limited value/interest to the game.

I believe you did Strawman me. You summarized my comments as this...

So, everyone but empking opposes mass claim. That means only empking is scum?

...which was not an accurate assessment of the town’s sentiments towards the MC and was not the conclusion I came to. If it’s not a strawman it is at least a mischaracterization of what I said.

After empkings MC proposal, you posted this:
havingfitz wrote:OK boss...I claaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaim...wait. You aren't the boss.

WTH are you trying to do?

I for one have nothing worth claiming, scum aren't going to claim, and any PR stupid enough to claim is just going to out themself into an easy NK. But I'm happy to listen to your rationale. Or are you just looking for reactions to your request to work with?


Which i (accurately, IMO) read as this.
interpretation of havingfitz's reaction to the MC proposal wrote:I disagree with the MC idea and here are 3 reasons why:

1: I have nothing to claim
2: scum aren't going to claim
3: any PR stupid enough to claim is just going to out themself into an easy NK.

But I'm happy to listen to your rationale, or was it just lolreactions?


This is just an odd way to object to the proposal in general. 1 and 2 don't make any sense at all as reasons to object to mass claiming. They may be true statements, but they don't explain why mass claiming is bad, or not mass claiming is good. 3 is odd because you imply that PR's will lie and not actually claim their role. The whole post just seems odd and not said in a way I'd expect town to react.

No...your read is not accurate. FA’s read was:

Like havingfitz said, nobody is likely to claim anything other than VT, as a power-role claim is practically suicide, and a scum claim is suicide.

I did not oppose a MC because of #1. Your take on #2 is wrong. #3 is correct...but you go on to say I “imply that PR's will lie and not actually claim their role”...which I never did. They might...who knows. But I didn’t say that. I said any PR stupid enough to claim would be an easy NK. The only people that I assume would lie in a MC are scum.

[quote="havingfitz wrote”]I just ISO'd Fallen Angel and I do not see the case on him. I would definitely not have him near the top of my scum list...like I'm leaning towards for those who are on his wagon at the moment.

Big surprise there

So wait, we go through the whole back and forth earlier about how you think scum would "at the very least I would stay quiet on the subject of a MC for some length of time to see where it was headed. Rather than immediately jump to oppose it." and then you don't see anything in FA's iso that mimics that?[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]
Why is it a surprise? I don’t think there is any case on FA and two of my top suspects are on the FA wagon....which for me clears FA even more.

[Fishythefish]

Day 1, Votecount 13

Empking (3) - havingfitz, AdumbroDeus, Lrdwhyt
fallen angel (3) – Rhinox, singersigner, Empking
singersigner (2) - cruelty, Nocmen
AdumbroDeus (1) - DavidParker
Nocmen (1) - Incognito
DavidParker (1) – fallen angel

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline in 5.5 hours. No majority means no lynch.

[Rhinox]

@rhinox

sorry missed that.

yes, AD is also scaremongering, but i tend to think that singer is being more opportunistic - there's clearly some kind of support for a DP policy lynch, people tend to agree that he may well be detrimental for town. thus, singer gives me worse vibes.

Well, first off I just thought it was odd that you didn't even mention AD at all before voting singer for scaremongering and not giving any other reasoning or clarification.

Secondly, now that you explain more with regards to singer, I think I disagree with you. I don't really see any support for a DP "policy" lynch. The only player I remember even mentioning something like that was singer herself, but maybe I'm wrong. Her "Random Vote" was a semi-serious policy vote on DP, and her iso #2 introduced the idea that any claims DP makes can not be trusted. Its not like she just happened to notice that there was some support for a DP policy lynch and decided to opportunistically try to make DP seem untrustworthy - she has been tooting that horn unashamedly all game. I don't see anything opportunistic about singer's "scaremongering".

Furthermore, how is singer referencing her own personal meta experience with DP that she has been in 3 games with DP where he has fake claimed as VT, any different than any other player who ever referenced meta on anybody. I don't see this as any different than calling someone scum for meta reasoning, which by your definition would be scaremongering. So what I mean is, what makes this "scummy fear-mongering" if its actually true and backed up?

What I'm really getting at here, is, IMO, adumbro was actually fearmongering when he went on his tirade about empking being better than the rest of us mere mortals, where as singer was referencing meta to flat out tells us she wouldn't trust DP's claim regardless of his allignment, and that is no different than any other meta considerations. singer didn't actually set the precedent for distrust, DP himself did in previous games - while adumbro was trying to set the precedent for distrust of empking based on nothing but the icon under his user name. The fact that you singled out singer for fearmongering while not mentioning adumbro seems like you were opportunistically jumping on a singer, who has been receiving increasingly greater suspicions, with a buzzword wikitell case.

New List Time!

scum

FA
Cruelty

leaning scum

nocmen
DP

leaning town

lrdwhyt
incog
singer
havingfitz

town

empking
adumbro

[Incognito]

No real time to respond to everything, but I had no clue this game had a no lynch at no majority rule. Rule 5 is confusing. Anywho, fallen angel seems like he has the best shot of getting lynched and a no lynch is just flat-out awful so let's switch to that:

unvote, vote: fallen angel

Got class now, but I'll be back in about 2 hours to see what the deadline situation is. Hopefully FA pops up in time to claim.