Mini 1075 - Fishtown Mafia

[DavidParker]

I'm indifferent to a mass claim actually, I don't think it will help us tremendously but I don't think it will hurt us greatly either. We shouldn't be relying on PRs as it is.

[havingfitz]

And if I was scum I would be interested in finding out what and where the PRs were and at the very least I would stay quiet on the subject of a MC for some length of time to see where it was headed. Rather than immediately jump to oppose it.

1. So, everyone but empking opposes mass claim. That means only empking is scum?

2. Of course not, so I hope you see how horrible a reason that is as evidence that you're town.

3. I would think you'd be looking into both fallenangel and confidanon/incognito, as both of them initially humored the idea of a mass claim. Do you think anyone in the game fits the description of "staying quiet on the subject of a MC for some length of time to see where it was headed."

(Numbers within quote input by me)
1. This situation isn't the case so why bring it up. Not everyone opposed the claim initially (not sure where everyone stands currently).

Strawman much Rhinox?

2. I'm not using my reply to confirm I'm town. I'm saying the immediate opposition was more of a town reaction IMO than some of the other reactions which you proceed to acknoledge in #3 above.

3. OK...now that you have confirmed your 1st comment doesn't apply in this game, yes...FA and CA's responses could merit a closer look. As would Lrdwhyt for his general lack of a stance (in the beginngin at least...I have not scoured the entire game for changes of opinion), singersigner's avoidance of any MC position initially (post 24) followed by a lack of any position on it in post 40. Then there is your predecessor's complete lack of comment on the matter in his initial post (61).

Regardless...if scum know no one would suspect them of being scum for doing something so scummy....then why not do it to be deemed town?

Look around... there's a number of people who find empking scummy. So obviously, empking isn't "scum who knew no one would suspect him for suggesting mass claim, so hi did it to look town."

How is your comment relavent? It's based on the current situation which Emp had no sight of when he would have had to make his MC push...unless Empscum had a crystal ball.

If I was a PR and did not support a massclaim (which I do not) would you expect me to say “I’m a PR but I’m not going to tell you which one”? Call my comment whatever you would like but whether I was VT or a PR...I would not have anything to claim.

Anyways, the point is, there is no reason for any town to say "I have nothing to claim". If the idea is to make the scum question whether or not you are a PR, you can do that by not revealing any hints about your role at all.

In other words, regardless of your role, if you're town and did not support mass claim, I would expect you to say "I don not support a mass claim" and move on. Not, "I don't have anything to claim, so I don't support a mass claim."

My point it I do not think the choice of words I used indicates whether or not I have a PR. If you think it is a VT claim that is your opinion. Coupled with the fact there has been no other claims...if scum were to infer from my comments that I was saying I was VT...that's as much WIFOM for them to consider as it would be for town to consider with Empscum MC push. So it's a wash IMO.

[singersigner]

I'm indifferent to a mass claim actually, I don't think it will help us tremendously but I don't think it will hurt us greatly either. We shouldn't be relying on PRs as it is.

Oh dear...

Ok, I think I wouldn't be aaasss opposed to a mass claim, if DP wasn't in this game. He's fake-claimed in every game I've seen him in, as a

townie

. If we did a mass claim at this point, I guarantee he'll eff it up in all sorts of ways for us, scum or not.

Have any of you been in a game where scum suggested a massclaim at an early stage of the game...say D1 or D2?

I'm wondering...what the point of this question is...

[havingfitz]

Have any of you been in a game where scum suggested a massclaim at an early stage of the game...say D1 or D2?

I'm wondering...what the point of this question is...

To see if anyone has seen scum suggest a massclaim at an early stage of the game. I'd be curious to see how it worked out for them.

[Rhinox]

1. This situation isn't the case so why bring it up. Not everyone opposed the claim initially (not sure where everyone stands currently).

Strawman much Rhinox?

Using a buzzword in bold text to try to make me look bad, havingfitz?

(protip, if I stopped there, THAT would be a strawman).

I brought it up because 1) you meant a statement that made an implication about how you thought scum would react to empkings MC proposal, but I have not seen you questioning any of the players that acted the way you perceived that scum would act, and 2) I exaggerated with the

everyone

bit to hopefully get you to recognize the awful WIFOM you used to basically say "this is why I'm not scum" without having to resort to shouting "HAY TATS WYE-FAWM!", and because due to #1, I was curious if you were aware of any of the reactions to empkings proposal at all.

2. I'm not using my reply to

confirm

I'm town. I'm saying the immediate opposition was more of a town reaction IMO than some of the other reactions which you proceed to acknoledge in #3 above.

Of course not, so I hope you see how horrible a reason that is

as evidence that

you're town.

Bit of a difference in meaning between the statement I made and the way I interpretted. Instead of addressing the issue that the statement you made is wifom and that makes reacting to empking's MC proposal negatively NOT necessarily a town-only reaction, you

strawman

the point and try to turn it into a semantics argument.

See wat I did thar?

3. OK...now that you have confirmed your 1st comment doesn't apply in this game, yes...FA and CA's responses could merit a closer look. As would Lrdwhyt for his general lack of a stance (in the beginngin at least...I have not scoured the entire game for changes of opinion), singersigner's avoidance of any MC position initially (post 24) followed by a lack of any position on it in post 40. Then there is your predecessor's complete lack of comment on the matter in his initial post (61).

Now we're getting some where. I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with when you take a closer look at these players.

How is your comment relavent? It's based on the current situation which Emp had no sight of when he would have had to make his MC push...unless Empscum had a crystal ball.

Ummm... its as relevent as your comment. Your comment ("Regardless...if scum know no one would suspect them of being scum for doing something so scummy....then why not do it to be deemed town?") assumes that empking is scum who KNEW that no one would suspect him of being scum for suggesting mass claim, which as you kindly already pointed out to me, he couldn't have known because he does not have a crystal ball.

On the other hand, one could assume that it is very likely suggesting a mass claim at the beginning of day 1 was going to receive a ton of negative attention at the very least because site meta believes that early mass claiming is suicide for town ("oh noes how will we win without PRs...."), and quite possibly could be enough negative attention to lead to a lynch, so why would scum every do that?

See, here's the kicker that you empking is scum people aren't realizing. If coming to the conclusion that empking is town is not allowed because its wifom, guess what. The converse - coming to the conclusion that empking is scum - is equally wifomtastic. What I'm trying to say is, its just as valid for me to come to the conclusion that emp is likely town for his suggestion as it is for you to come to the conclusion that he's likely scum. If you want to scream wifom at me, then you've got to be willing to accept that the wifom makes the "tell" null. Otherwise you're just being hypocritical.

My point it I do not think the choice of words I used indicates whether or not I have a PR. If you think it is a VT claim that is your opinion. Coupled with the fact there has been no other claims...if scum were to infer from my comments that I was saying I was VT...that's as much WIFOM for them to consider as it would be for town to consider with Empscum MC push. So it's a wash IMO.

Look, I knew whether you were vanilla, PR, or scum, as soon as I suggested that "I have nothing to claim" meant a vanilla claim you would deny it. That wasn't the point I was trying to make, so let me start over.

After empkings MC proposal, you posted this:

OK boss...I claaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaim...wait. You aren't the boss.

WTH are you trying to do?

I for one have nothing worth claiming, scum aren't going to claim, and any PR stupid enough to claim is just going to out themself into an easy NK. But I'm happy to listen to your rationale. Or are you just looking for reactions to your request to work with?

Which i (accurately, IMO) read as this.

I disagree with the MC idea and here are 3 reasons why:

1: I have nothing to claim
2: scum aren't going to claim
3: any PR stupid enough to claim is just going to out themself into an easy NK.

But I'm happy to listen to your rationale, or was it just lolreactions?

This is just an odd way to object to the proposal in general. 1 and 2 don't make any sense at all as reasons to object to mass claiming. They may be true statements, but they don't explain why mass claiming is bad, or not mass claiming is good. 3 is odd because you imply that PR's will lie and not actually claim their role. The whole post just seems odd and not said in a way I'd expect town to react.

Hey, why should we listen to you? WTH are you trying to do? Massclaiming is a horrible idea, it'll just let scum know the PR's. I'm not giving you any role information, and you better have good reasoning. Were you just looking for reactions?

[singersigner]

Have any of you been in a game where scum suggested a massclaim at an early stage of the game...say D1 or D2?

I'm wondering...what the point of this question is...

To see if anyone has seen scum suggest a massclaim at an early stage of the game. I'd be curious to see how it worked out for them.

Ok. I was taking it a couple different ways. 1. exactly what you said, or 2. a backwards defence of Empking, saying "well hey, scum never does this, so he's not scum."

Just checking. And no, I've never seen it, but I also haven't been around this site for that long. I just think that a mass claim so early in anything other than a large game, or marathon game is pointless, because I don't know of anyone dumb enough to claim anything other than VT this early, except...*coughDavidParkercough*

[Nocmen]

Now then, where's the confirmation bias? Please explain.

Nearly everyone one of your posts is about emp. Nearly all of your responses to others are regarding emp. Your in crazy paranoia land that "just because emp has a scummy he's going to manipulate us all and we're not even going to realize" - which is BS by the way. Your superbold screaming at us.

All after your 12th post where you mentioned you'd be willing to let it drop, there are all after that. Pretty much everything you've said is in regards to massclaim. I don't like how distracting you've been.

So I'm up to your post 31 in iso and pretty much all you said is in regards to mass claim.

I think I've said enough on the topic of confirmation bias...

Furthermore, I don't see why you're so willing to clear people based on them simply being the center of attention, a number of players (myself included) generally try to be the center of attention regardless of alignment and more then likely there are occasional games where people just choose to take it.

pro-tip: this was the point where you were supposed to say "hey rhinox, didn't you call DGB town in /invitational 11 for doing something questionable D0 to garner a lot of suspicion and become the center of attention and she was actually scum". Let me answer this by referring to a different quote of yours.

Town has no reason to make themselves insanely scummy (somewhat scummy yes as a PR), so there's no town objective here.

I think you've got it backwards. Town doesn't care if they look scummy because they're not (supposed to be) concerned with survival, they're concerned with catching scum. (that doesn't mean townies should throw all caution to the wind, but there is an entire thread in the MD about this...) Scum on the other hand, want to blend in, look town, and survive.

While there are some players who will do things to stand out as scum, in general, it's avoided. Look at plum's play in /invitiational 11 - and she's the one who should get a scummy for that game, not DGB, who got lynched.

So its just not good play for scum to intentionally put themselves in the center of attention and under heavy suspicion.

Leaving this here to ensure that I see it when I go through later on in the game - Very noteworthy, I didn't notice Adumbro's focus with Emp in his posts.

Catching up a bit. If I miss something directed at me let me know and I will try to address it.

@Rhinox...we’ll just have to disagree on how we view your town read of Empking. I still see your read as - he must be town because scum would not do something that scummy (push for a MC). I call it scummy...you call it making one’s self the center of attention. I agree he made himself the center of attention (because IMO he proposed a scummy plan). Regardless...if scum know no one would suspect them of being scum for doing something so scummy....then why not do it to be deemed town? And as it stands...the bulk of my suspicions towards Empking are not the MC push itself.

Question to all.

Have any of you been in a game where scum suggested a massclaim at an early stage of the game...say D1 or D2?

Yes, I think adumbro is genuinely town. He genuinely thinks empking is scum.

Are you not of the opinion that I genuinely think Empking is scum? Because I do. I need to do a bit of reading/ISOs though as my suspect list is rather small at the moment (1).

I mean, this is basically saying, "Hey, I'm not a PR but I don't want scum to know all our PR's". Guess what would happen if everyone who's not a PR would say they're not a PR...? Thats what empking was talking about earlier with the "soft vanilla claim" thing. If you're town, its anti town because you're making it easier for scum to find the PR's, and if you're scum, its... idk really. Maybe you were hoping someone else would say "I don't have anything to claim either". But if you're going to claim vanilla on page 3 or whatever, you might as well be for a mass claim.

If I was a PR and did not support a massclaim (which I do not) would you expect me to say “I’m a PR but I’m not going to tell you which one”? Call my comment whatever you would like but whether I was VT or a PR...I would not have anything to claim. And if I was scum I would be interested in finding out what and where the PRs were and at the very least I would stay quiet on the subject of a MC for some length of time to see where it was headed. Rather than immediately jump to oppose it.

Answer to your question: I do remember it being suggested early once, but I don't remember which game, nor do I remember if it was T/S who proposed it/.
And your sole suspect list is Emp, correct me if I'm wrong here. You don't suspect anyone else?

Also, to the people debating the MC replys, you do realize Emp proposed the MC to see who would be up for it, its not like we actually started the mass claim. I presume that if we did, then it would be suspicious for someone to skip out on it.

[Incognito]

Sorry all. Just posting to let you all know I haven't forgotten about you. Will update this tomorrow. It's just been an insanely busy week at school and work.

[Lrdwhyt]

All caught up. This game sure got off to a bang.

Empking seems town for proposing an idea that immediately makes him the center of attention. I don't believe it was some sort of wifomy gambit by scum to try to appear town by acting "too scummy to be scum".

Except he wouldn't know that he would be the center of attention immediately when he first proposed the idea. It doesn't really mean much.

First, goes along with empkings massclaim proposal. Then votes davidparker for thinking empking is town. Then posts this gem in regards to emp:

I'm happy with my vote where it is. Just because he's obvscum to you, doesn't mean I believe he is. He could very well be, but it's three pages into the game. That's far too early to pass judgement on who is definitely scum.

Then by fallen's 12th post in iso, he's suggesting that empking is "misguided town" for pushing an unpopular idea, and referring to mass claim as if he were seemingly against it the whole time. What i mean is, statements like this:

No, I actually hate wifom. Empking wasn't trying to convince "weak" players, he was trying to convince the whole town. Yeah, it's questionable for an innocent player to do that, but that doesn't outright prove that he's scum, either.

seems to imply that he's acknowledging that mass claiming is something scum would typically suggest, but that contradicts his iso #3 where he said he saw no harm in mass claiming.

I believe fallen_angel's initial vote for DavidParker was more for his lack of reasoning than the actual thought itself. The second part seems to be accurate, though.

At least some of them are you mistaking catching Lrd out in a lie and talking about mass claim.

Lrd: I've answered that question almost once a page (possibly an exageration). Because the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

And once again: No, they don't. What are you trying to accomplish here?

Regardless, just proposing it significantly hampers town, it's a distraction and it makes it a lot more likely that PRs will drop tells. So why would town EMP would do it?

Because for some crazy reason, he genuinely believed that it might actually be beneficial for the town? I completely agree with you when you say it's been a huge distraction and that it could have potentially forced PRs into dropping tells, but I'm still failing to see why Empking-scum would do something that bold when he'd have had to have known it would be an unpopular position to take that could potentially make him see the noose in a hurry. And yes, I realize this is subject to WIFOM, but so is everything that leads us to believe one player or another is town.

It is conceivable that he thought it would succeed.

@Rhinox...in post 201 you weigh in on the hot topic of D1 (Emp’s MC push) by saying (and I paraphrase) that he seems town for suggesting an idea that would be scummy and thus make him town because scum would not try to come across as town by proposing a plan so scummy scum would never do it (aka WIFOM). Which of course would make it a good suggestion for scum to make. Or not. Or maybe.

No, your paraphrase is wrong. Empking is town for suggesting an idea that makes him the center of attention. I never said the suggestion was scummy. I never said it wasn't. But scum generally don't like to be the center of attention. Therefore, players that put themselves under scrutiny intentionally I generally view as town.

Now, is it possible scum would put themselves under a lot of suspicion in an attempt to look town? Possibly. But I think scum would rather look town while avoiding suspicion.

Once again, he didn't necessarily know what would follow his suggestion. That does not mean anything.

How is my comment suggestive? I’m saying ~Even though I myself do not have anything to claim I’m against a massclaim because it will out all our PRs. I don’t know how to clarify the comment any more than that.

I mean, this is basically saying, "Hey, I'm not a PR but I don't want scum to know all our PR's". Guess what would happen if everyone who's not a PR would say they're not a PR...? Thats what empking was talking about earlier with the "soft vanilla claim" thing. If you're town, its anti town because you're making it easier for scum to find the PR's, and if you're scum, its... idk really. Maybe you were hoping someone else would say "I don't have anything to claim either". But if you're going to claim vanilla on page 3 or whatever, you might as well be for a mass claim.

That's a good point, but I thnk havingfitz was just pouring wine.

Answer to your question: I do remember it being suggested early once, but I don't remember which game, nor do I remember if it was T/S who proposed it/.
And your sole suspect list is Emp, correct me if I'm wrong here. You don't suspect anyone else?

Also, to the people debating the MC replys, you do realize Emp proposed the MC to see who would be up for it, its not like we actually started the mass claim. I presume that if we did, then it would be suspicious for someone to skip out on it.

I somehow doubt that. Empking keeps arguing that a mass claim is a good idea, when it clearly isn't. If he were town and reaction testing, I'd expect him to at least drop the mass claim arguments and provide some sort of analysis of the information he's gotten...but he hasn't.

Anyways, sorry about my slacking off, but I'll try to reread this thread tomorrow and provide insight into something that doesn't revolve around Empking.

[AdumbroDeus]

Now then, where's the confirmation bias? Please explain.

Nearly everyone one of your posts is about emp. Nearly all of your responses to others are regarding emp. Your in crazy paranoia land that "just because emp has a scummy he's going to manipulate us all and we're not even going to realize" - which is BS by the way. Your superbold screaming at us.

All after your 12th post where you mentioned you'd be willing to let it drop, there are all after that. Pretty much everything you've said is in regards to massclaim. I don't like how distracting you've been.

So I'm up to your post 31 in iso and pretty much all you said is in regards to mass claim.

I think I've said enough on the topic of confirmation bias...

Furthermore, I don't see why you're so willing to clear people based on them simply being the center of attention, a number of players (myself included) generally try to be the center of attention regardless of alignment and more then likely there are occasional games where people just choose to take it.

pro-tip: this was the point where you were supposed to say "hey rhinox, didn't you call DGB town in /invitational 11 for doing something questionable D0 to garner a lot of suspicion and become the center of attention and she was actually scum". Let me answer this by referring to a different quote of yours.

Town has no reason to make themselves insanely scummy (somewhat scummy yes as a PR), so there's no town objective here.

I think you've got it backwards. Town doesn't care if they look scummy because they're not (supposed to be) concerned with survival, they're concerned with catching scum. (that doesn't mean townies should throw all caution to the wind, but there is an entire thread in the MD about this...) Scum on the other hand, want to blend in, look town, and survive.

While there are some players who will do things to stand out as scum, in general, it's avoided. Look at plum's play in /invitiational 11 - and she's the one who should get a scummy for that game, not DGB, who got lynched.

So its just not good play for scum to intentionally put themselves in the center of attention and under heavy suspicion.

Frankly, I disagree, town roles also have certain appearance obligations, VT has to look obvious-town to catch NKs. PRs have to subtely control their scummyness in order to avoid both getting nk'd and lynched.

Granted, being reckless is townie more often then not, but at the same time, if something is completely boneheaded, if done by an experienced player, it's more often a scum move then not in my experience. I have quite a bit of experience with scum that is glad to attract attention (as well as some with the more normal, cautious scum), and it seems to me that he's playing that game.


As far as concentrating on him, I'm trying a new strategy, focusing on my scumtargets when I find them.

And if I was scum I would be interested in finding out what and where the PRs were and at the very least I would stay quiet on the subject of a MC for some length of time to see where it was headed. Rather than immediately jump to oppose it.

So, everyone but empking opposes mass claim. That means only empking is scum?

Of course not, so I hope you see how horrible a reason that is as evidence that you're town.

I would think you'd be looking into both fallenangel and confidanon/incognito, as both of them initially humored the idea of a mass claim. Do you think anyone in the game fits the description of "staying quiet on the subject of a MC for some length of time to see where it was headed."

I like that line of reasoning, however I think it would be a great deal more useful once we have a EMP flip to work with.

Regardless...if scum know no one would suspect them of being scum for doing something so scummy....then why not do it to be deemed town?

Look around... there's a number of people who find empking scummy. So obviously, empking isn't "scum who knew no one would suspect him for suggesting mass claim, so hi did it to look town."

If you take a look, people were relatively lukewarm about it, and the question of him being scum because of it didn't come up till I brought it up.

So, I think he could've been successful in convincing town to do so, and I doubt he was expecting the backlash he ultimately received.

Leaving this here to ensure that I see it when I go through later on in the game - Very noteworthy, I didn't notice Adumbro's focus with Emp in his posts.

Really? I thought I was pretty clear about it.

[havingfitz]

If you take a look, people were relatively lukewarm about it, and the question of him being scum because of it didn't come up till I brought it up.

Not to tarnish your impression of yourself but you seem the have overlooked the exchange between Emp and I, along with my vote on him, before you ever weighed in on the subject. Thanks for bringing Emp's scumminess up

[Fishythefish]

Day 1, Votecount 11

Empking (3) - havingfitz, AdumbroDeus, Lrdwhyt
DavidParker (2) – fallen angel, Nocmen
fallen angel (2) – Rhinox, singersigner
AdumbroDeus (1) - DavidParker
Nocmen (1) - Incognito
Lrdwhyt (1) - Empking

Not Voting (1) - cruelty

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline in 4.5 days.

[AdumbroDeus]

If you take a look, people were relatively lukewarm about it, and the question of him being scum because of it didn't come up till I brought it up.

Not to tarnish your impression of yourself but you seem the have overlooked the exchange between Emp and I, along with my vote on him, before you ever weighed in on the subject. Thanks for bringing Emp's scumminess up

I didn't.

You tossed a vote on him, but overall you didn't really push scummyness out of it, it struck me as more of a theory disagreement tbh (though admittedly I didn't notice the vote during my reread initially, I blame concentrating on studying for my midterm).

Ultimately the vote was the only thing that suggested you found it scummy as opposed to just dumb, it wasn't like you were really pushing a case on him then, and it wasn't until I started pushing a case that the entire town turned solidly against the idea.

[havingfitz]

Wow. You hold yourself in very high esteem.

I 'tossed a vote on him' because I think he is scum. Some people play a variation of mafia where they vote for the people they think are scum. I would say first vote and several exchanges would equate to introduing the idea of Emp as scum.

With all your helpful theory lessons, kind assessments of your fellow (but obviously lesser) players, and your misguided "I introduced the idea Emp was scum first" chest thumping you definitely deserve a gold star after the game.

I wonder if there is a Gold Star Scummy?

BTW...if Emp does wind up being the lynch and flips town...you can have all credit of convincing town (all one other Emp votes ATM) you want

@ town...sorry for the slight distraction on my part. The game is dragging and I couldn't resist. Perhaps if more people were posting it would be easier to stay on track.

Vote Emp! (like AD said)

[Empking]

I agree to the game dragging.

Vote: FA

- The only wagon with decent reasoning behind it.

[AdumbroDeus]

@EMP:

Care to answer my questions?
viewtopic.php?p=2616953#p2616953

Wow. You hold yourself in very high esteem.

I 'tossed a vote on him' because I think he is scum. Some people play a variation of mafia where they vote for the people they think are scum. I would say first vote and several exchanges would equate to introduing the idea of Emp as scum.

With all your helpful theory lessons, kind assessments of your fellow (but obviously lesser) players, and your misguided "I introduced the idea Emp was scum first" chest thumping you definitely deserve a gold star after the game.

I wonder if there is a Gold Star Scummy?

BTW...if Emp does wind up being the lynch and flips town...you can have all credit of convincing town (all one other Emp votes ATM) you want

@ town...sorry for the slight distraction on my part. The game is dragging and I couldn't resist. Perhaps if more people were posting it would be easier to stay on track.

Vote Emp! (like AD said)

Nah, I suck.

Whatev, we'll discuss chest-thumping post-game but extolling myself wasn't the objective. The point I was trying to get across was that while a massclaim isn't gonna happen now, but it certainly was a valid possibility since most of the town was lukewarm and you were the only person to staunchly oppose it.

[AdumbroDeus]

EBWOP: I meant care to answer my challenge, not questions.

[Empking]

[]b]FoS: AD[/b] There were no questions so yuou were just trying to mislead the town.

[AdumbroDeus]

[]b]FoS: AD[/b] There were no questions so yuou were just trying to mislead the town.

Which is why I EBWOP'd to say that it was a challenge, not questions...


Now please meet my challenge and ask people 3 questions useful questions unrelated to massclaiming. kthanxbie

@everyone:

What do you think of EMP's "catching Lrd in a lie" and EMP's ignoring my EBWOP?

[Incognito]

The last two pages have been a bit dense, so let me know if I missed anything.

Question to all.

Have any of you been in a game where scum suggested a massclaim at an early stage of the game...say D1 or D2?

Nope. Have you?

@Rhinox:

I think your method just seems weird to me so far. I mean, when I come into a game, I'll pretty much only stick my neck out and call people "town" if there are things in their play that genuinely gave me a townish vibe. It could be gut or something else they've said or done or whatever, but I usually have something that I could point to that says, yeah, this guy is probably town. You seem to pick people who you think are scum and then insert the rest of your reads as prob-town unless you got a really strong vibe that you thought they were town in which case they're strong town? I've just never heard of that - people who I have no read on usually go in the neutral category for me. Is this really typical of you?

-~-~-~-~-~

I didn't really get much out of the havingfitz <-> Rhinox back and forth.

singersigner and cruelty continue to give me bad vibes though - I didn't like anything about singersigner's post 207; it's just strange to me that she's been gone for so long and then when she comes back, she "coincidentally" lists the three people who have the largest wagon-backing as her scummiest picks. In post 218 she rescinds her statement and doesn't remember why she listed her scum reads like that while instead going ahead and voting fallen angel? singersigner, care to explain? It's also weird to me that I wasn't mentioned in her 218 at all.

cruelty's check-in post didn't really offer much either, especially considering the fact that deadline is approaching rather quickly. Not happy about that obv.

[Incognito]

Speaking of that, I had no clue deadline was this Tuesday until I noticed the mod's last post. I think we need to converge on a lynch fast so that we have a chance to get a claim. Of the leading wagons, I don't support the Empking one nor the DavidParker one as I still think both of them are prob-town. I could probably get behind the fallen angel wagon since I don't have much of a read of him, but I'm a bit wary of the fact that singersigner is backing that wagon. And I'd obviously still very much support a Nocmen lynch.

@everyone:

What do you think of EMP's "catching Lrd in a lie" and EMP's ignoring my EBWOP?

I think his FoS of you has pretty dumb reasoning behind it, and I don't agree with his suspicion towards Lrdwhyt either.

Empking, did you not notice Adumbro's EBWOP? Is he still worthy of an FoS?

[Nocmen]

[]b]FoS: AD[/b] There were no questions so yuou were just trying to mislead the town.

Which is why I EBWOP'd to say that it was a challenge, not questions...


Now please meet my challenge and ask people 3 questions useful questions unrelated to massclaiming. kthanxbie

@everyone:

What do you think of EMP's "catching Lrd in a lie" and EMP's ignoring my EBWOP?

I think the ignoring of the EBWOP was definitely interesting, more so than the "catching Lrd in a lie".

I'm curious as to why Emp thinks FA is the only wagon worth going after.

[DavidParker]

There's nothing useful to an Emp lynch.

The FA wagon right now is the only wagon with a case that I find scummy attached to it. Although I do believe nocman/singer is likely to be scum (at least 1 of them)

[Empking]

Yeah, I didn't see it. He's not worthy of a FOS. I'm not going to do his challenge though, as AD himself has stressed time and time again I'm the best player so I'll hunt in my own way.

Noc: The wagon on me I know to be false, the DP has poor reasoning behind it (no scum motivation).

[havingfitz]

@everyone:

What do you think of EMP's "catching Lrd in a lie" and EMP's ignoring my EBWOP?

I don't think he caught Lrdwhyt in any lie and his suspicions based on that 'lie' were a reach. If someone made that challenge to me I would most likely ignore it as well.

The last two pages have been a bit dense, so let me know if I missed anything.

Question to all.

Have any of you been in a game where scum suggested a massclaim at an early stage of the game...say D1 or D2?

Nope. Have you?

-~-~-~-~-~

I didn't really get much out of the havingfitz <-> Rhinox back and forth.

To your question - No I haven't.

Regarding the Rhinox - me exchange...what are your thoughts on Rhinox's strawman of my suspicions towards Emp and his continued distortion of my position on Emp?

---

Other than Emp....I am most suspicious of singersigner atm. I need to give everyone else a look over to fill out my top 3 or 4 suspects.