Why were you trying to argue for a mass claim?Empking wrote:Incognito: I don't remember, possibly. One game though, especially one with somebody who has a grudge against me isn't "practically every game".
Lrd; What querstion? (Seriously though. "I'mnot dodging the questionyouare."?)
Agreed!Incognito wrote:And I think this is the first time I'm playing in a game with you, Rhinox? Should be fun.
which can be taken many ways, but seems awfully suggestive coming from someone who wants nothing to do with mass claiming.havingfitz wrote:I for one have nothing worth claiming
Then by fallen's 12th post in iso, he's suggesting that empking is "misguided town" for pushing an unpopular idea, and referring to mass claim as if he were seemingly against it the whole time. What i mean is, statements like this:fallenangel wrote:I'm happy with my vote where it is. Just because he's obvscum to you, doesn't mean I believe he is. He could very well be, but it's three pages into the game. That's far too early to pass judgement on who is definitely scum.
seems to imply that he's acknowledging that mass claiming is something scum would typically suggest, but that contradicts his iso #3 where he said he saw no harm in mass claiming.fallen wrote:No, I actually hate wifom. Empking wasn't trying to convince "weak" players, he was trying to convince the whole town. Yeah, it's questionable for an innocent player to do that, but that doesn't outright prove that he's scum, either.
At least some of them are you mistaking catching Lrd out in a lie and talking about mass claim.AdumbroDeus wrote:@Incognito: The issue with DP is not so much the "recklessness is a towntell" thing, that's true enough, but it's a minor tell at best. The real concern is how SURE he seems that EMP is town. My earlier comments in regards to their relationship stand.
@Empking: viewtopic.php?p=2613039#p2613039, viewtopic.php?p=2612656#p2612656, viewtopic.php?p=2610154#p2610154, viewtopic.php?p=2605267#p2605267.
All after your 12th post where you mentioned you'd be willing to let it drop, there are all after that. Pretty much everything you've said is in regards to massclaim. I don't like how distracting you've been.
It goes against the general feeling (because before recently it was a bad thing) and its shot down just due to prejudice.DavidParker wrote:If the advantages outweigh the disadvantages why do you feel that in none of these games a day 1 mass-claim occurs?
I might have assumed incorrectly then.Empking wrote:Incognito: I don't remember, possibly. One game though, especially one with somebody who has a grudge against me isn't "practically every game".
It's not bad to pressure for reasons, no. I just didn't get the impression that that's what you were doing. You seemed to take a very strong stance of just wanting to lynch DP even if his play was just "anti-town" and not necessarily "scummy" extremely early in this game. I personally don't support policy lynches, but from what I've seen from the people who do, I normally see the kind of stance you took a lot closer to deadline after repeated attempts of trying to figure an "anti-town" player out. So when you just wanted to do it pretty much right off the bat, you can see why it might have raised my eyebrows.Nocmen wrote:So yet, while hes expressed strong opinions on people other than Emp without giving any reasons, it's bad for me to pressure him for those reasons? That's what I'm understanding from this.
Because for some crazy reason, he genuinely believed that it might actually be beneficial for the town? I completely agree with you when you say it's been a huge distraction and that it could have potentially forced PRs into dropping tells, but I'm still failing to see why Empking-scum would do something that bold when he'd have had to have known it would be an unpopular position to take that could potentially make him see the noose in a hurry. And yes, I realize this is subject to WIFOM, but so is everything that leads us to believe one player or another is town.AdumbroDeus wrote:Regardless, just proposing it significantly hampers town, it's a distraction and it makes it a lot more likely that PRs will drop tells. So why would town EMP would do it?
When I get a town read on someone early, I state them as town. Feel free to check other games I am in and you'll see the same thing occurring.AdumbroDeus wrote:@Incognito: The issue with DP is not so much the "recklessness is a towntell" thing, that's true enough, but it's a minor tell at best. The real concern is how SURE he seems that EMP is town. My earlier comments in regards to their relationship stand.
@Empking: viewtopic.php?p=2613039#p2613039, viewtopic.php?p=2612656#p2612656, viewtopic.php?p=2610154#p2610154, viewtopic.php?p=2605267#p2605267.
All after your 12th post where you mentioned you'd be willing to let it drop, there are all after that. Pretty much everything you've said is in regards to massclaim. I don't like how distracting you've been.
Well, lists are very rough at this stage of the game, so they're subject to change. That being said, I strongly think FA is scum, and I believe adumbro and empking are town. I think fitz, noc, and dp are scummiest of the players remaining, so by POE, the remaining 4 (incog, curelty, lrdwhyt, and singer) are probtown. Basically, it doesn't do me any good to have more than 4 scum suspects at a time in this game. There's probably no more than 3 scum in the game, so I already figure that (at least) 1 of my leaning scum reads is wrong. Don't be surprised if there are some changes between the "leaning" groups as I get more information throughout the game. It'll take a lot more to change the town and scum groups, though.incog wrote:That said, Rhinox, why are singersigner and cruelty leaning town for you currently?
How is my comment suggestive? I’m saying ~Even though I myself do not have anything to claim I’m against a massclaim because it will out all our PRs. I don’t know how to clarify the comment any more than that.Rhinox-201 wrote:which can be taken many ways, but seems awfully suggestive coming from someone who wants nothing to do with mass claiming.me wrote:I for one have nothing worth claiming
and proceeds in the same post to say he’s leaning scum on DP and leaning town on cruelty. Then a day later puts DP in the “scummiest of the players remaining” category. This all despite not having anything to say about him. ?I can't really say anything about davidparker or cruelty just yet.
I look forward to seeing these details.singersigner wrote:Checking in. Sorry about the stint of MIA. The weekend was much more engaging than I thought it would be.
In any case, I will UNVOTE: DavidParker, as I no longer really see him as scum. He's playing a much better game than I've ever seen him play on this site, and however ironic that might be against his meta as town, I don't think playing better is a scum tell, haha.
Right now, my top scum reads are Adumbro, Nocman, and Empking, in that order. I will come back with more details on those reads later.
No, your paraphrase is wrong. Empking is town for suggesting an idea that makes him the center of attention. I never said the suggestion was scummy. I never said it wasn't. But scum generally don't like to be the center of attention. Therefore, players that put themselves under scrutiny intentionally I generally view as town.havingfitz wrote:@Rhinox...in post 201 you weigh in on the hot topic of D1 (Emp’s MC push) by saying (and I paraphrase) that he seems town for suggesting an idea that would be scummy and thus make him town because scum would not try to come across as town by proposing a plan so scummy scum would never do it (aka WIFOM). Which of course would make it a good suggestion for scum to make. Or not. Or maybe.
It means I could see your response coming from either town or scum.havingfitz wrote:‘independent of my alignment’...(WTH does that mean?)
Yes, I think adumbro is genuinely town. He genuinely thinks empking is scum. I think he is trying too hard to make up for what he perceives as a bad performance in /invitation 11 which I was a part of, and is now trying a little too hard. I think he is town with confirmation bias towards empking, which can be a distraction if it continues, but he is town nonetheless.havingfitz wrote:A day later Adumbro chimes in with a similar opinion (and Emp vote) and you rate his response genuine and call him town.
<snip>
I am leaning scum for opposing a bad idea & WIFOM, and AD is town for opposing a bad idea (wait...isn’t that what I was doing?).
I mean, this is basically saying, "Hey, I'm not a PR but I don't want scum to know all our PR's". Guess what would happen if everyone who's not a PR would say they're not a PR...? Thats what empking was talking about earlier with the "soft vanilla claim" thing. If you're town, its anti town because you're making it easier for scum to find the PR's, and if you're scum, its... idk really. Maybe you were hoping someone else would say "I don't have anything to claim either". But if you're going to claim vanilla on page 3 or whatever, you might as well be for a mass claim.havingfitz wrote:How is my comment suggestive? I’m saying ~Even though I myself do not have anything to claim I’m against a massclaim because it will out all our PRs. I don’t know how to clarify the comment any more than that.
You're acting like something changed between yesterday when I made the list and today when I said DP is in the scummiest of the players remaining category. Nothing changed. He was in the same catogory when I made the list. Thats why I put him where I did.havingfitz wrote:How is my comment suggestive? I’m saying ~Even though I myself do not have anything to claim I’m against a massclaim because it will out all our PRs. I don’t know how to clarify the comment any more than that.
I touched on this in my respnse to fitz. IS that what you were looking for?nocman wrote:@Rhinox, can I have more details about why you think Adumbro is town? Espeicaly if you think it'll take a lot to change his opinion to you.
I never said I was against mass claiming. In fact, I'm surprised nobody asked me what I thought of the idea.Empking wrote:HF: Or Cruelty. Yes so far my scum reads have been on people that are against mass claim (AKA everyone) but I think there's an obvious reason for that (a clue is hidden in this very post)
Stating a relationship, given the circumstance and how sure you are of being right, I find that unlikely if he flips town.DavidParker wrote:When I get a town read on someone early, I state them as town. Feel free to check other games I am in and you'll see the same thing occurring.
Excuse me if I find that very unlikely. Frankly, then it becomes a good strategy to do things that help scum which are blatently outside of your scummy meta because people will wiform themselves out of lynching you. Also, why isn't he trying to help town in any other way?Incognito wrote:Because for some crazy reason, he genuinely believed that it might actually be beneficial for the town? I completely agree with you when you say it's been a huge distraction and that it could have potentially forced PRs into dropping tells, but I'm still failing to see why Empking-scum would do something that bold when he'd have had to have known it would be an unpopular position to take that could potentially make him see the noose in a hurry. And yes, I realize this is subject to WIFOM, but so is everything that leads us to believe one player or another is town.
As for your other question, yes, it was an invitational just for Scummies Winners so the playerlist was impressive.
Empking wrote:
At least some of them are you mistaking catching Lrd out in a lie and talking about mass claim.
Lrd: I've answered that question almost once a page (possibly an exageration). Because the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.
Unless someone voluntarily offers up a claim other than VT, with no prompting other than the possible L-1, I have a hard time believing anyone would say, oh hey, mass claim, time to out myself as a PR! As scum, I don't think I would afford trusting anyone's soft-claims as a VT. PR's want to hide, right? Whether or not they make a point of saying "I have nothing to claim" is WIFOM.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~I'm waaaaay too tired to double check that this made sense, and reading over it again, it probably doesn't, but I just needed to get my thoughts on that out there. I'll clarify tomorrow if I need to.Rhinox wrote:I mean, this is basically saying, "Hey, I'm not a PR but I don't want scum to know all our PR's". Guess what would happen if everyone who's not a PR would say they're not a PR...? Thats what empking was talking about earlier with the "soft vanilla claim" thing. If you're town, its anti town because you're making it easier for scum to find the PR's, and if you're scum, its... idk really. Maybe you were hoping someone else would say "I don't have anything to claim either". But if you're going to claim vanilla on page 3 or whatever, you might as well be for a mass claim.
I honestly have no idea what you mean by this. Care to explain?Empking wrote:HF: Or Cruelty. Yes so far my scum reads have been on people that are against mass claim (AKA everyone) but I think there's an obvious reason for that (a clue is hidden in this very post)
There's a difference between being up in people's faces about their posts (drawing attention), and then doing some huge move that could very clearly be taken as scummy, but willing to risk it anyway for what you *mistakingly* think is the best for town.Adumbro wrote:Furthermore, I don't see why you're so willing to clear people based on them simply being the center of attention, a number of players (myself included) generally try to be the center of attention regardless of alignment and more then likely there are occasional games where people just choose to take it.
Nearly everyone one of your posts is about emp. Nearly all of your responses to others are regarding emp. Your in crazy paranoia land that "just because emp has a scummy he's going to manipulate us all and we're not even going to realize" - which is BS by the way. Your superbold screaming at us.adumbro wrote:Now then, where's the confirmation bias? Please explain.
So I'm up to your post 31 in iso and pretty much all you said is in regards to mass claim.adumbro regarding empking wrote:All after your 12th post where you mentioned you'd be willing to let it drop, there are all after that. Pretty much everything you've said is in regards to massclaim. I don't like how distracting you've been.
pro-tip: this was the point where you were supposed to say "hey rhinox, didn't you call DGB town in /invitational 11 for doing something questionable D0 to garner a lot of suspicion and become the center of attention and she was actually scum". Let me answer this by referring to a different quote of yours.adumbro wrote:Furthermore, I don't see why you're so willing to clear people based on them simply being the center of attention, a number of players (myself included) generally try to be the center of attention regardless of alignment and more then likely there are occasional games where people just choose to take it.
I think you've got it backwards. Town doesn't care if they look scummy because they're not (supposed to be) concerned with survival, they're concerned with catching scum. (that doesn't mean townies should throw all caution to the wind, but there is an entire thread in the MD about this...) Scum on the other hand, want to blend in, look town, and survive.adumbro wrote:Town has no reason to make themselves insanely scummy (somewhat scummy yes as a PR), so there's no town objective here.
I think you guys are not understanding how a mass claim works. If everyone agrees to a mass claim and its done, you actually claim your role. You don't claim VT as town. If later, someone says no don't lynch me I'm not a VT I'm actually a <whatever>, they get lynched. Otherwise, mass claim is pretty pointless.singer wrote:Unless someone voluntarily offers up a claim other than VT, with no prompting other than the possible L-1, I have a hard time believing anyone would say, oh hey, mass claim, time to out myself as a PR! As scum, I don't think I would afford trusting anyone's soft-claims as a VT. PR's want to hide, right? Whether or not they make a point of saying "I have nothing to claim" is WIFOM.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~I'm waaaaay too tired to double check that this made sense, and reading over it again, it probably doesn't, but I just needed to get my thoughts on that out there. I'll clarify tomorrow if I need to.
Are you not of the opinion that I genuinely think Empking is scum? Because I do. I need to do a bit of reading/ISOs though as my suspect list is rather small at the moment (1).Rhinox wrote:Yes, I think adumbro is genuinely town. He genuinely thinks empking is scum.
If I was a PR and did not support a massclaim (which I do not) would you expect me to say “I’m a PR but I’m not going to tell you which one”? Call my comment whatever you would like but whether I was VT or a PR...I would not have anything to claim. And if I was scum I would be interested in finding out what and where the PRs were and at the very least I would stay quiet on the subject of a MC for some length of time to see where it was headed. Rather than immediately jump to oppose it.Rhinox wrote:I mean, this is basically saying, "Hey, I'm not a PR but I don't want scum to know all our PR's". Guess what would happen if everyone who's not a PR would say they're not a PR...? Thats what empking was talking about earlier with the "soft vanilla claim" thing. If you're town, its anti town because you're making it easier for scum to find the PR's, and if you're scum, its... idk really. Maybe you were hoping someone else would say "I don't have anything to claim either". But if you're going to claim vanilla on page 3 or whatever, you might as well be for a mass claim.
So, everyone but empking opposes mass claim. That means only empking is scum?havingfitz wrote:And if I was scum I would be interested in finding out what and where the PRs were and at the very least I would stay quiet on the subject of a MC for some length of time to see where it was headed. Rather than immediately jump to oppose it.
Look around... there's a number of people who find empking scummy. So obviously, empking isn't "scum who knew no one would suspect him for suggesting mass claim, so hi did it to look town."havingfitz wrote:Regardless...if scum know no one would suspect them of being scum for doing something so scummy....then why not do it to be deemed town?
Not that I remember.havingfitz wrote:Question to all. Have any of you been in a game where scum suggested a massclaim at an early stage of the game...say D1 or D2?
havingfitz wrote:If I was a PR and did not support a massclaim (which I do not) would you expect me to say “I’m a PR but I’m not going to tell you which one”? Call my comment whatever you would like but whether I was VT or a PR...I would not have anything to claim.
In other words, regardless of your role, if you're town and did not support mass claim, I would expect you to say "I don not support a mass claim" and move on. Not, "I don't have anything to claim, so I don't support a mass claim."rhinox wrote:Anyways, the point is, there is no reason for any town to say "I have nothing to claim". If the idea is to make the scum question whether or not you are a PR, you can do that by not revealing any hints about your role at all.