Mini 1075 - Fishtown Mafia

[Empking]

Your implication with "scum won't claim and any PR stupid enough to claim is just going to out themself into an easy NK" Is that PRs won't be stupid enough to claim and in MC that's means a lie.

My reasons haven't changed.

[Incognito]

I've done a brief reread, and I feel good enough about vibes to begin with this -

vote: Nocmen

I didn't like Nocmen's reasoning he used in post 75 to vote DavidParker - his reasoning just seemed forced to me especially since the things he called DavidParker out on in that post don't really make much sense as reasoning to vote for someone. I don't at all understand why DavidParker's calling Empking town looked scummy in the context he did it in - Nocmen, did you think DP's reasoning looked contrived or something? How in the world could calling someone town possibly equate into rolefishing from a hypo-DavidParker scum?

Nocmen's posts following that one also continue along the same path; post 134 is trying to promote "certainty" as a "scum-tell" when I can't at all see why the alternate possibility of "town just feeling certain about a particular read" can't be a just-as-likely scenario in that situation. Also, I really disliked Nocmen's 9th post where he's already beginning to use the "hey, if he's actually town, then he's anti-town and at least we'll rid ourselves of a useless player!" It just seems lazy to me. It looks especially bad when Nocmen's posts prior to that didn't really seem like they were trying to figure DP out.

-~-~-~-~-~

With respect to singersigner, I've just noticed that she seems to be posting a lot of words, but I have absolutely no clue who she suspects as scum right now. She's kept a (presumably) random vote on DavidParker since her very first post of the game, but some of her more recent posting seems to be walking a thin line - it seems like she's half-accusing him of being scum but then she's mentioned in one of her previous posts that her vote was still mostly random.

singersigner, who's scum?

-~-~-~-~-~

I'll have to finish out my thoughts later since I'm getting ready to head out. I'm more of an "in-the-moment" player anyway, so I'll be happy to just get engaged in the game from here instead of summarizing thoughts from the very beginning.

[Lrdwhyt]

Haven't posted for a while, sorry about that.

I've stated why I think empking is town.

The reasons for thinking those 2 is scummy is because the way they voted+made cases seemed like oppurtunistic scum. Their votes didn't seem "sincere" but rather them trying to push a mislynch-wagon through (and this strenghtened my town read on empking)

The MC is obviously largely WIFOM (Although not entirely), it's not a good suggestion to make as town, but then how does it help him if he's scum? IT just puts him in the limelight and gains negative attention (Something I know all too well, and believe within reason is a good way to start a day), so with that I find it more likely a town than scum would do it, and the way he dealt with it after was very town.

Do the townies out of you who are on my/emp's wagons plan on doing some legit scum hunting and go after people who are actually scum on our wagons?? Or are you happy to vote for me for being known for anti-town behaviour and empking for getting discussion started by drawing some negative attention to him.

I think you forgot the obvious motive, which would be to get everyone to mass claim. And he didn't get negative attention for suggesting the mass claim until he started failing to be able to argue for the mass claim, and had to resort to using flawed logic to argue for it. Your logic is stupid. It doesn't help him if he's town either, but there's a possibility of it helping him if he's scum.

And agreed that lynching someone for being anti-town doesn't really help.

AdumbroDeus's theory on why Empking wants a massclaim makes sense. After it was made clear that mass claiming was a bad idea, Empking kept arguing for it, sometimes using flawed logic, despite how obvious it was that a mass claim wasn't going to happen. If he's town, there must be a reason for him doing it, and he refuses to tell us.
It's only logical to assume that he's scum, and either wanted a mass claim, but can't back out of wanting one now, or is trying to distract us from scumhunting with stupid ideas.

There's a scum benefit to a mass claim, but it's still WIFOM because a mass-claim was NEVER going to happen day 1. He knew that, we knew that, everyone knew that. Hence it is WIFOM. If there was a realistic chance of a mass claim occurring then maybe it wouldn't be wifom and it would be scummy but that was never going to happen.

Can we stop talking about WIFOM now????

No, he wouldn't know that. It's entirely plausible that he thought he would be able to convince everyone to mass claim. So, no, it's not WIFOM.

One of DavidParker and EMP are scum, probably not both. EMP is by far the most likely here for obvious reasons.

Which are?

This suggestion by Adumbro is ridiculous (since it's not true) and borderline scummy for setting up two mislynches. I'm struggling to find a scum-motive behind claiming something like this (since scum know it's not true), but it's enough to warrant my vote.

Vote: Adumbro

Would it not be ridiculous if it were true?

I'm well aware of what WIFOM is, and yes I believe we can't interpret Emp's want for a MC as a scumtell because of it.

Not a scumtell, it's a move that's scummy, but can have town motives - it currently lacks any.

The reason this is my first game proposing a mass claim is because I think early MC is the best case in Mini normals and just mini normals and even then only when its plain like this one. (themes are crazy and larges are VT's infected)

Everyuone, I want a mass claim because its the best play. Just for that reason.

No, you don't, and you know it. I'm going to VOTE: Empking unless he can provide one good reason for why his advocating a mass claim is a town move.

[Fishythefish]

Day 1, Votecount 7

Empking (4) - havingfitz, AdumbroDeus, cruelty, Lrdwhyt
DavidParker (3) –singersigner, fallen angel, Nocmen
havingfitz (1) - Empking
AdumbroDeus (1) - DavidParker
Nocmen (1) - Incognito

Not voting (1) – Rhinox

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch

[cruelty]

sorry, been a hectic couple days. i'll have content later today, just checking in for now.

[Nocmen]

I've done a brief reread, and I feel good enough about vibes to begin with this -

vote: Nocmen

I didn't like Nocmen's reasoning he used in post 75 to vote DavidParker - his reasoning just seemed forced to me especially since the things he called DavidParker out on in that post don't really make much sense as reasoning to vote for someone. I don't at all understand why DavidParker's calling Empking town looked scummy in the context he did it in - Nocmen, did you think DP's reasoning looked contrived or something? How in the world could calling someone town possibly equate into rolefishing from a hypo-DavidParker scum?

Nocmen's posts following that one also continue along the same path; post 134 is trying to promote "certainty" as a "scum-tell" when I can't at all see why the alternate possibility of "town just feeling certain about a particular read" can't be a just-as-likely scenario in that situation. Also, I really disliked Nocmen's 9th post where he's already beginning to use the "hey, if he's actually town, then he's anti-town and at least we'll rid ourselves of a useless player!" It just seems lazy to me. It looks especially bad when Nocmen's posts prior to that didn't really seem like they were trying to figure DP out.

-~-~-~-~-~

With respect to singersigner, I've just noticed that she seems to be posting a lot of words, but I have absolutely no clue who she suspects as scum right now. She's kept a (presumably) random vote on DavidParker since her very first post of the game, but some of her more recent posting seems to be walking a thin line - it seems like she's half-accusing him of being scum but then she's mentioned in one of her previous posts that her vote was still mostly random.

singersigner, who's scum?

-~-~-~-~-~

I'll have to finish out my thoughts later since I'm getting ready to head out. I'm more of an "in-the-moment" player anyway, so I'll be happy to just get engaged in the game from here instead of summarizing thoughts from the very beginning.

My reasoning is that DP has said things that he beleives people are "certainly town" or scummy, and yet doesn't seem to have any reasoning behind it. Early on, I think it's foolish to say that about anyone. Which that, with his lack of reasoning for some of his posts, makes me a bit too uneasy. I can go more into this if yo uwant, but this is the only time I really have net this weekend so I'm trying to at least keep up with the games I can right now

[Empking]

Unvote

Vote: Lrd

- We've gone through my reasons for mass claim. Remember, you agreed to two points of my reasoning and only disagreed with the point about the [non-existant] confirmed town. You are simply not being honest at this point.

[Incognito]

My reasoning is that DP has said things that he beleives people are "certainly town" or scummy, and yet doesn't seem to have any reasoning behind it. Early on, I think it's foolish to say that about anyone. Which that, with his lack of reasoning for some of his posts, makes me a bit too uneasy.

From what I've seen, I think he's only said this about Empking so far. And I thought he did provide a reasoning too - he said something to the effect of Empking's recklessness makes him think he's town, which is something that I and lots of other players sometimes consider to be a town-tell too. You're saying that it's foolish for him to say that, but I'm still not sure why you think he's more likely to be scum because of it.



Empking, what do you think of the reasons I've brought up against mass-claiming?

[Empking]

1. A breaking strategy wasn't really one of my reasons to suggesting just a remote positive plus.
2. We wouldn't be only helping scum.
3. I think that nowadays, any powerroles we have would be more useful to help us crack the scum now (along with their help before getting nightkill'd) than keeping them hidden and hoping our tracker gets the scum taking the action (for example)

[Incognito]

I still disagree, but I'm getting the feeling that this mass-claim discussion thing is becoming more of a distraction than anything.

How many people actually agree to it? It seems like the majority don't or are unsure about it, so I think we should just play as normal.

[Empking]

I've been saying let's go pass it for a long time now.

[AdumbroDeus]

Before I do that though, I see I need to do a bit of housekeeping on the subject of mass-claiming of all things.

I do

NOT

support mass claiming Today.

I think that's an extremely bad idea, and I'm really surprised it's come from Empking of all people. Since this is a Mini Normal that's been reviewed by a team of 3 experienced mods, I'm going to assume that this game is balanced. As such, I think it can also be assumed that there likely isn't some kind of a major breaking strategy that mass-claiming would exploit. By mass-claiming, we'd only be helping the scum who is the informed minority for a reason. Towns usually need the added benefit or at least the PERCEIVED benefit of a few power roles to help sniff out the scum. And we have absolutely no clue what the scum even have in their arsenal either. So no. Just nonono.

You're exactly replicating my thoughts on the matter... so why you not voting EMP?

Massclaim as an idea is distracting at best, at worst it gives scum PR tells (assuming town doesn't follow it, and given the large gap between his skill and the initial town's, I'm not sure he would fail).

The mere proposition from an experienced scummer should be setting off alarm bells.

Will it never happen D1? I have seen players that are significantly better then pretty much everyone in the game pull similar BS on multiple occasions.

Give us one.

One of DavidParker and EMP are scum, probably not both. EMP is by far the most likely here for obvious reasons.

Which are?

This suggestion by Adumbro is ridiculous (since it's not true) and borderline scummy for setting up two mislynches. I'm struggling to find a scum-motive behind claiming something like this (since scum know it's not true), but it's enough to warrant my vote.

Vote: Adumbro

Try quoting what you're talking about.

It's not uncommon for scum to take the side of a townie that's gonna get lynched as an attempt to accrue town points when they flip "I told you so" effect. The thing is, when you're blatant enough about it, it becomes obvious that you KNOW they're town, and only scum knows the sides for sure.

I read a strong possibility that you're trying to do exactly that.

[Lrdwhyt]

I've been saying let's go pass it for a long time now.

That still doesn't explain your behaviour.

I might have agreed with two of your reasons, but there are not more advantages than disadvantages at this point. That makes any point you have kind of moot, as it's

not

a good idea to mass claim.

[Empking]

I've been saying let's go pass it for a long time now.

That still doesn't explain your behaviour.

I might have agreed with two of your reasons, but there are not more advantages than disadvantages at this point. That makes any point you have kind of moot, as it's

not

a good idea to mass claim.

Give me the three disadvantages then.

[Incognito]

You're exactly replicating my thoughts on the matter... so why you not voting EMP?

Currently, I'm leaning towards thinking that Empking is more likely town than scum for suggesting that we mass claim. I think it would be too bold a move for a scum Empking to make. I did toss the idea around in my head for a bit that he may have been thinking he could pull a fast one on a bunch of less experienced players, but after further thought I began to disregard it. Plus his activity level in this game seems much better than the one Empking-scum game that I played with him in it.

On a side note, I think you're grossly overestimating Empking's playing abilities. In case you didn't know, there are some people who push for an Empking policy lynch practically every game he plays in because they find him to be either unreadable or to be a huge detriment to the town. Don't let the Scummy that he ended up winning fool you into thinking that he's a God-like player.

[Lrdwhyt]

I've been saying let's go pass it for a long time now.

That still doesn't explain your behaviour.

I might have agreed with two of your reasons, but there are not more advantages than disadvantages at this point. That makes any point you have kind of moot, as it's

not

a good idea to mass claim.

Give me the three disadvantages then.

Quantity doesn't matter, quality does.

[Empking]

In case you didn't know, there are some people who push for an Empking policy lynch practically every game he plays in

This is not even remotely true.

Lrd: You said there were (at least) two disadvaantages. Either admit to lying or tell us them. Don't dodge the question.

[Incognito]

No? In the Scummies Invitational, didn't Kinetic and at least two other people push for your lynch just because you were you?

[Lrdwhyt]

In case you didn't know, there are some people who push for an Empking policy lynch practically every game he plays in

This is not even remotely true.

Lrd: You said there were (at least) two disadvaantages. Either admit to lying or tell us them. Don't dodge the question.

Trying to be pedantic, now? I meant that the disadvantages outweighed the advantages.

Perhaps

you

should stop dodging the question. Or do you not have an answer?

[Empking]

Incognito: I don't remember, possibly. One game though, especially one with somebody who has a grudge against me isn't "practically every game".

Lrd; What querstion? (Seriously though. "

I'm

not dodging the question

you

are."?)

[Nocmen]

My reasoning is that DP has said things that he beleives people are "certainly town" or scummy, and yet doesn't seem to have any reasoning behind it. Early on, I think it's foolish to say that about anyone. Which that, with his lack of reasoning for some of his posts, makes me a bit too uneasy.

From what I've seen, I think he's only said this about Empking so far. And I thought he did provide a reasoning too - he said something to the effect of Empking's recklessness makes him think he's town, which is something that I and lots of other players sometimes consider to be a town-tell too. You're saying that it's foolish for him to say that, but I'm still not sure why you think he's more likely to be scum because of it.



Empking, what do you think of the reasons I've brought up against mass-claiming?

So yet, while hes expressed strong opinions on people other than Emp without giving any reasons, it's bad for me to pressure him for those reasons? That's what I'm understanding from this.

Also, I agree that we should stop discussing the mass-claim. Emp proposed it, we shot it down, so lets just move on and continue the day, because no one is going to go through with it. I could give my own main disadvantage of it that I'm thinking of, but I want to hear what Lrdwhyt says first, as the question is for him, and I want to hear his honest answer without giving more words to work with.

[AdumbroDeus]

You're exactly replicating my thoughts on the matter... so why you not voting EMP?

Currently, I'm leaning towards thinking that Empking is more likely town than scum for suggesting that we mass claim. I think it would be too bold a move for a scum Empking to make. I did toss the idea around in my head for a bit that he may have been thinking he could pull a fast one on a bunch of less experienced players, but after further thought I began to disregard it. Plus his activity level in this game seems much better than the one Empking-scum game that I played with him in it.

One game seems like a mighty small sample to draw reliable meta from.

Regardless, just proposing it significantly hampers town, it's a distraction and it makes it a lot more likely that PRs will drop tells. So why would town EMP would do it?

On a side note, I think you're grossly overestimating Empking's playing abilities. In case you didn't know, there are some people who push for an Empking policy lynch practically every game he plays in because they find him to be either unreadable or to be a huge detriment to the town. Don't let the Scummy that he ended up winning fool you into thinking that he's a God-like player.

I'm drawing a comparison to him and the other players in the game at the time, was the original playerlist particularly impressive?

I've been saying let's go pass it for a long time now.

Then how come everyone points out the disadvantages, you feel obligated to take them to task on it?

[Empking]

AD: When? Are you talking about Incognito's points because I was directly asked to respond to them.

[AdumbroDeus]

@Incognito

: The issue with DP is not so much the "recklessness is a towntell" thing, that's true enough, but it's a minor tell at best. The real concern is how SURE he seems that EMP is town. My earlier comments in regards to their relationship stand.

@Empking

: viewtopic.php?p=2613039#p2613039, viewtopic.php?p=2612656#p2612656, viewtopic.php?p=2610154#p2610154, viewtopic.php?p=2605267#p2605267.


All after your 12th post where you mentioned you'd be willing to let it drop, there are all after that. Pretty much everything you've said is in regards to massclaim. I don't like how distracting you've been.

[Fishythefish]

Day 1, Votecount 8

Empking (4) - havingfitz, AdumbroDeus, cruelty, Lrdwhyt
DavidParker (3) –singersigner, fallen angel, Nocmen
AdumbroDeus (1) - DavidParker
Nocmen (1) - Incognito
Lrdwhyt (1) - Empking

Not voting (1) – Rhinox

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch

Activity Check!

Everyone passes.