Mini 1064 - Charlie's Town (Game Over!)

[SpyreX]

Nacho you're officially making me paranoid:

Well, let's see. When someone is being replaced, it means that we're going to get a fresh new set of eyes on the game that might see something we've missed. I don't trust people's play when they end up flaking because it means they really don't care about the game they're playing so despite what alignment they are, they're not playing to their wincon like everyone else is. It also means that you AREN'T going to get a claim, and honestly, I have not seen a case out of you on Shotty that warrants enough confidence to lynch without a claim.

Dude, dude.

We totally lynched without a claim D1.

On the back of nothing.

What the hell changes that now?

ANYWHO, I am convinced one of, but not both, FG and Shotty is scum with the way this is ebbing and flowing.

I STILL think its Shotty.

[Reckamonic]

NOTHING. IS. HAPPENING. IN. THIS. GAME.

FakeGod needs rope. His insistence that claiming at L-1 gives the scum a chance to draw out a PR claim is sensationalism - it's

always

worth trading one dead townie for one dead scum. And how is L-1 "dangerous", exactly?

mas showed up to aid FakeGod though. "Yeah! He should claim now," shouts the overeager scumbuddy, anxious to help his partner look less like caught scum.

Reckamonic, did you intend to express an above average level of expression with this ‪post?‬

Richard was our strongest scumread, if that's what you mean.

SpyreX is town and anyone who wants to lynch him needs to seriously rethink their views or self-vote.

Oh my god, masfloo's 312 is eye-poppingly scummy. Holy shitballs there's no way he's not scum. FakeGod joining the wagon makes us worried…but honestly, that post was so bad, it's hard to not vote.

THERE HAS TO BE AT LEAST ONE SCUM AMONG FAKEGOD, SHOTTY, AND MASS FLU. THERE'S POSSIBLY TWO, AND POSSIBLY HOLY SHIT ALL THREE.

Substrike22 totally sums up our thoughts on the matter in 320, complete with non-caps lock rage for those of you with sensitive eyes.

Unvote; Vote: mass flu

^ scum.

[Charlie]

Llamafluff replaces Shotty to the Body effective immediately.

Deadline has been extended by 1 week.
Deadline is Wednesday, 10th November at 0030 hours (GMT -5)
Moderator deadline time:Thursday, 11th November at 1330 hours (GMT +8)

[Charlie]

Vote count 12

masfloohinev (4) - Substrike22, FakeGod, Nachomamma8, Reckamonic
LlamaFluff (3) - SpyreX, Casus Belli, jmurph3
FakeGod (2) - Cogito Ergo Sum, masfloohinev
SpyreX (1) - Llamafluff

Not voting: No one!
With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch.

Also,

Mod

, we have that one week extension, yes? Due to Shotty being replaced?

Mod, could we have a week AFTER you find a replacement for our deadline extension? I mean, Shotty WAS one of the major bandwagons of D2, and two days is NOT a viable time to form a well thought out brand-new bandwagon. Plus, it's nice to give the replacements a little reading time before jumping in. Everyone knows replacements don't read during night.

That situation has been resolved since LlamaFluff replaced in. Much thanks to LlamaFluff!

[SpyreX]

Ok I can't believe I'm doing this but:

Unvote. Vote: FakeGod

I don't want to lynch somebody getting replaced, and FakeGod's the only alternative and the one I would prefer to see lynched anyway.

See this post?

It looks bad. I'll give it that.

However, it looks so genuine in its badness that I dig it - and, really, its a sentiment that I understand while think is wrong wrong wrong.

FURTHER,

FakeGod jumped that vote like it was the hottest thing to ever happen ever.

FakeGod.

I'm space-positive one of Shotty / FG is scum. So, lets say I'm wrong about Shotty. You think FG's LEAP is a bus leap with the added bonus of self-preservation in a situation where, realistically, there's no town cred because of said self-preservation?

Really?

[LlamaFluff]

Sup all. Nacho is scum. Key thing in this is what happened day one.

He votes RGHP, someone who he never called scum before, and actually never even MENTIONS, simply in order to call Spys bluff or something along those lines. Essentially risking a null to town read getting hammered. Starting day two this appears to have had no bearing on a Spy read, so that throws out the line of thoughts that it was to gain a read on the Spy slot.

Nacho is scum, saw this as a way to get a quicklynch of town and not take the blame, and since then went right back to where he was before he got "really tempted to essentially hammer someone he expressed zero opinion of".

unvote
Vote Nacho

[Substrike22]

Sup all. Nacho is scum. Key thing in this is what happened day one.

He votes RGHP, someone who he never called scum before, and actually never even MENTIONS, simply in order to call Spys bluff or something along those lines. Essentially risking a null to town read getting hammered. Starting day two this appears to have had no bearing on a Spy read, so that throws out the line of thoughts that it was to gain a read on the Spy slot.

Nacho is scum, saw this as a way to get a quicklynch of town and not take the blame, and since then went right back to where he was before he got "really tempted to essentially hammer someone he expressed zero opinion of".

unvote
Vote Nacho

You, as one of my top 3 scum candidates, come in and attempt to pin a bad day one by everyone on Nacho, of all people?

So, at least now we know Shotty was scum, and Llama has clearly taken up those reigns. I'll stick with Mas, as I'm close to 100% sure he's scum, but Llama/Shotty's looking good for tomorrow.

Also, Reck I think brings up an interesting point about FakeGod jumping on the vote switch from Mas, but if I were at L-1 and town, I'd probably try to jump on that too. Just sayin'. Someone does something obviously scummy, it's obviously scummy regardless of how many votes you've got on you. But, as I said, the point is still noted. I think it'd be funny if we were looking at a Mas/Llama(shotty)/Fake scum-team.

Spyre, I don't buy your "it's too bad a post" argument. If it's "too bad" then why aren't you voting him? If it's scummy, it's scummy, even if it's genuine.

[Substrike22]

I'm space-positive one of Shotty / FG is scum. So, lets say I'm wrong about Shotty. You think FG's LEAP is a bus leap with the added bonus of self-preservation in a situation where, realistically, there's no town cred because of said self-preservation?
Really?

I agree. I'm leaning shotty at this point.

[LlamaFluff]

candidates, come in and attempt to pin a bad day one by everyone on Nacho, of all people?

Not trying to "pin a bad day one" on nacho. I am showing you, despite your apparent refusal to look, that nacho decided to vote someone that he had zero read on knowing that the chance of him getting hammered was high. The player that Nacho had been persuing up until this point was on the RGHP wagon, so the "saw partners" arguement is out the window. So he made a move that had a high chance of having someone else quickhammer scum, that left his previous vote-ee looking bad, and left the blame for the day more on others then himself. Thats not a town move.

So, at least now we know Shotty was scum, and Llama has clearly taken up those reigns. I'll stick with Mas, as I'm close to 100% sure he's scum, but Llama/Shotty's looking good for tomorrow.

Cute. Answer me this: Why is nacho town? I have yet to see a reason to.

[masfloohinev]

@Nachomamma, Substrike, and FakeGod - After I gave my analysis of the game, my top suspects were FakeGod, SpyreX, jmurph, and Shotty with FakeGod as my top suspect. I voted FakeGod, but then began getting bored, because I really just wanted to see a flip. The Shotty bandwagon was becoming stronger than the FakeGod bandwagon, so I switched my vote over there. When I found out Shotty was getting replaced, I decided to switch my vote over to FakeGod, because I didn't want to be voting somebody that was getting replaced.

It's opportunistic that mas doesn't switch his vote in post #301, when the Shotty and Fake wagons were the same size and mas's vote switch could've put his top suspect at L-1, but he was more interested in fishing out a claim.

The Shotty and FakeGod bandagons weren't the same size. Shotty's bandwagon had three more votes at that time. Not even close to the same size. I'm not trying to fish out a claim. I just want the day to end with one of my top suspects getting lynched, and having the player that is about to get lynched to claim just so happened to be one of the steps involved in lynching a player.

Scum-mas has no motivation to keep his vote on town-Shotty since he probably won't be lynched (considering he's being replaced and all); he has far more reason to switch to FakeGod, who's far more lynchable.

This makes no sense and seriously makes me question your allignment. If you agree with me that Shotty probably won't be lynched because he's being replaced, then how can you, in the same breath, attack me for unvoting for that exact same reason?

Because you were busing your buddy to gain credibility and then the opportunity presented itself to kill a townie and make it look legitimate, you just failed at doing it. I agree that FakeGod is still suspect, but I don't find it likely that Mas would jump off of a Shotty bandwagon and onto a FakeGod wagon if his intention was to bus someone.

How exactly did the opportunity present itself for me to switch over to the FakeGod bandwagon? It couldn't have been because the size of his bandwagon, because his bandwagon had two less votes.

I feel like we were observing a busing attempt and then when the opportunity to save his scum buddy presented itself, he took it. Although, your idea of an attempt at a quick-lynch seems just as likely; so,

this kind of becomes a WIFOM argument, but none the less, something to think about

. I have a feeling that either Shotty or Fake are scum, because otherwise that transition of vote doesn't make that much sense to me.

So the reason for voting me is actually because of a WIFOM argument that is something to think about. That's great. Also, doesn't this revolve around Shotty being scum? That would mean that lynching Shotty first would be the logical idea.

If I was your top suspect, then why didn't you vote me over Shotty days ago?

I did. Pay attention. Who was I voting before I switched to Shotty?

Okay. SpyreX is town. LlamaFluff is town.

FakeGod and jmurph are scum. Last scum is either Casus Belli or Substrike.

[LlamaFluff]

Also jmurph is probably scum, that is an itch that will only be cured with rope or a bullet.

[Casus Belli]

Welcome to Llama.

Well, you're not the audience, so I don't know why you think you can judge that.

Because we can judge your audience by what your audience is writing in thread. We have been declared town on a couple different occasions by different people, we haven't had a bandwagon on us, and you don't seem to be trying to change that. Our point was, if you were so confident in your read you would be shouting to the heavens to get people voting us if nobody was; but no, you sat back and kept you vote on us and did not even try to lobby some votes or even some suspicions. You kept your vote on us and let the game go right on by.

Re: votes, I think we can agree that a page 5 vote does not indicate an above average level of suspicion.

We might agree with this if Day 1 wasn't a sum total of just over six pages and Reckamonic's vote was not the fifth on the wagon.

When someone is being replaced, it means that we're going to get a fresh new set of eyes on the game that might see something we've missed. I don't trust people's play when they end up flaking because it means they really don't care about the game they're playing so despite what alignment they are, they're not playing to their wincon like everyone else is. It also means that you AREN'T going to get a claim, and honestly, I have not seen a case out of you on Shotty that warrants enough confidence to lynch without a claim.

The problem is we are getting a fresh pair of scummy eyes. The argument is age old, should a fresh replacement be vindicated of their predecessors crimes? We've seen both sides of the argument countless times and I think that distinction is more personal to playstyle. Regarding masf: we think he probably falls on the side of allowing a replacement a chance but did an exceptionally poor job explaining it. We don't see scum submitting a post like that with the implication that a vote might be highly opportunistic and scummy.

Right now we think Spyrex and Reckanmonic are town. Possibly Substrike as well, we won't be joining the rush to Mas however. We still think shotty aka Llama is the mostly likely scum. CES and then probably jmurph too.

[LlamaFluff]

The problem is we are getting a fresh pair of scummy eyes. The argument is age old, should a fresh replacement be vindicated of their predecessors crimes? We've seen both sides of the argument countless times and I think that distinction is more personal to playstyle.

So you are going to just brush aside what I am going to put up here? Do you disagree with what I put up on Nacho?

Right now we think Spyrex and Reckanmonic are town. Possibly Substrike as well, we won't be joining the rush to Mas however. We still think shotty aka Llama is the mostly likely scum. CES and then probably jmurph too.

So are you going to give me anything to respond to? What did you think of my post on nacho?

Ugh this game is painful due to lack of multiple ultra-obv town.

Nacho still is scum though. Most likely with jmpurh and one of CES/Reck.

[LlamaFluff]

Im borderline pulling a skitzo move right now wondering if Nacho was just making a very stupid move with the putting RGHP at L-1 right after the Spy move.

There are some decent things that he points out around that point, but that was just a really poor move. I need to run another check on jmurph who (obviously) has been my second pick since replacing in. On top of what scummier things jmurph has done, q21 dying makes a lot of sense from jmurph scum (yes NK speculation, but its amazing how often it helps in games now that meta steers away from looking at it).

Actually hell, screw it. Nacho is hitting a few of his minor town tells depsite of the stupid move regarding RGHP.

unvote
Vote jmruphp

Itch scratched.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I just ISOed jmurph and q21. I'm not liking jmurph but I disagree with you regarding the nightkill, Llama. Q21's suspicion of jmurph strikes me as not nearly strong enough to justify a kill and I would personally guess his death was the result of more long term thinking (and a glance at the player list seems to support that.)

[Nachomamma8]

Spy? We told him we would hammer him, and most people claim when someone tells them they've gotten an intent to hammer. Richard wasn't getting replaced; we still had him around for reactions when we were discussing quickhammering him, and we saw firsthand his apathy. Shotty is GONE. He's flaked, disappeared, dead, MIA, not here... he couldn't claim if he wanted to.

@Mas: I miscounted; I missed that you and Reck were on the Fake bandwagon before... So, for me to answer your second point, we'll have to pretend that I never made a mistake and at post #301 the Shotty and Fake wagons WERE tied. Which would mean I saw you refuse to switch your vote to a wagon on your top suspect and put him to L-1, instead trying to coax a claim from someone who really wasn't there. Then, a few more people posted and still nobody hammered, then you decided to switch to the FakeGod wagon.

mas showed up to aid FakeGod though. "Yeah! He should claim now," shouts the overeager scumbuddy, anxious to help his partner look less like caught scum.

If mas was trying to back up his caught buddy's viewpoint, then why the hell would he put him at L-1 and THEN ask him to claim?

The problem is we are getting a fresh pair of scummy eyes. The argument is age old, should a fresh replacement be vindicated of their predecessors crimes? We've seen both sides of the argument countless times and I think that distinction is more personal to playstyle. Regarding masf: we think he probably falls on the side of allowing a replacement a chance but did an exceptionally poor job explaining it. We don't see scum submitting a post like that with the implication that a vote might be highly opportunistic and scummy.

Hm. Fair enough.

I'd like to see what Sub says about all of this, though.

[Substrike22]

I buy Mas' point that he was on FakeGod's case before, but most of that case revolved around WIFOM arguments. Plus, his wall of text outlining his reads on every player reads very scummy to me, as does a lot of his play from day one. Plus when most of his defense revolves around saying that he believe's someone's post is "stupid" and not addressing it, well. Scum is scum. The vote was opportunistic, bottom line, in my opinion. The WIFOM part of MY post was regarding your reasons for the quick change, Mas; Either way, it reads scum. There was no reason for you to take that off of L-1. Mas' initial vote on Shotty was extremely convenient, it was a "because I'm bored" post, and it was a nice attempt at busing. Plus with all the day 1 crap between them, with both of them arguing back and forth but not really making any solid points, it was a good attempt at making it seem like one of them was town if the other flipped scum. But all of that is unraveling right now.

Nacho, to answer that second question above, because it makes it look like he's busing him? As I said I don't think Fake is scum anymore, based on Mas. Fake has acted scummy at points, but overall I'm not getting the same reads now that a few of my other reads have changed.

I think Fake was going to be the casualty of opportunity. If you look at Mas' wall of textpwn where he outlines his arguments on everyone, most of his arguments against Fake are WIFOM; he was taking advantage of an opportunity, based on town-lead suspicion on FakeGod. Scum was trying to push a lynch anywhere but on himself.

Also he gave Shotty (my suspected scum buddy for him) a "neutral" read on his "list", and almost every game I've played where a scum has made a "list" he lists at least one scum buddy as neutral. Since I'm one of the others listed as neutral, I know that scum is Shotty. But, I still want to flip Mas first, in case I'm wrong, since Shotty himself wasn't really as suspicious on an ISO read of him.

[Nachomamma8]

Sub, the Reck quote was referring to his post where he suggested that mas and Fake were scumbuddies, and mas's request for Shotty to claim was backing Fake up.

[SpyreX]

Actually hell, screw it. Nacho is hitting a few of his minor town tells depsite of the stupid move regarding RGHP.

What was stupid?

I need to know.

Spy? We told him we would hammer him, and most people claim when someone tells them they've gotten an intent to hammer. Richard wasn't getting replaced; we still had him around for reactions when we were discussing quickhammering him, and we saw firsthand his apathy. Shotty is GONE. He's flaked, disappeared, dead, MIA, not here... he couldn't claim if he wanted to.

I dig, I just was eye-raised at "without a claim" like that matters when BUSINESS is going down.

[LlamaFluff]

Actually hell, screw it. Nacho is hitting a few of his minor town tells depsite of the stupid move regarding RGHP.

What was stupid?

I need to know.

Voting RGHP knowing that you had intent to hammer on site despite not only never calling him scummy at all, but also never mentioning him at any point during the game until after you said the hammer would come. Essentially hammering a player while never asking them a single question and deciding to forgo a claim.

If he is town it was a stupid move. Not like saying "hey you should claim" could have hurt in the least.

[SpyreX]

Why is HE stupid for it and not ME?

[LlamaFluff]

Why is HE stupid for it and not ME?

Its not like im not pissed off at you for doing what you did, but you have hit two of your three ultra-secret town tells already, so you are probably town. Also you at least mentioned RGHPs OMGUSing before declaring an intent to hammer him. Nacho actually never mentioned him.

What is your thought on jmurph though at this point? Im moving on from Nacho-scum to nacho-townish due to all his minor tells he is hitting as of late. Plus the fact that jmurph needing death is an essential at this point. I just realized how disjointed this paragraph is so I will just say nacho be town leaning and jmurph be scum, undisjointification go.

[jmurph3]

FakeGod and jmurph are scum. Last scum is either Casus Belli or Substrike.

Also jmurph is probably scum, that is an itch that will only be cured with rope or a bullet.

Why? Would either of you care to make a case?

Oh, wait, Llama did...

I need to run another check on jmurph who (obviously) has been my second pick since replacing in. On top of what scummier things jmurph has done, q21 dying makes a lot of sense from jmurph scum (yes NK speculation, but its amazing how often it helps in games now that meta steers away from looking at it).

Really? Like, REALLY? I don't speculate on NKs. I don't think it's helpful. Scum have a myriad of reasons for doing what they do. This isn't really something where I can make a defense for myself, since it's not something I did. If you'd like to actually make a case, I'd be more than happy to read it and respond to it.

[masfloohinev]

Why? Would either of you care to make a case?

I did. You already responded to it, I just don't believe your defense.

I'll respond to Substrike soon.

[masfloohinev]

1: I buy Mas' point that he was on FakeGod's case before, but most of that case revolved around WIFOM arguments. 2: Plus, his wall of text outlining his reads on every player reads very scummy to me, 3: as does a lot of his play from day one. 4: Plus when most of his defense revolves around saying that he believe's someone's post is "stupid" and not addressing it, well. Scum is scum. 5: The vote was opportunistic, bottom line, in my opinion. The WIFOM part of MY post was regarding your reasons for the quick change, Mas; Either way, it reads scum. 6: There was no reason for you to take that off of L-1. Mas' initial vote on Shotty was extremely convenient, it was a "because I'm bored" post, and it was a nice attempt at busing. Plus with all the day 1 crap between them, with both of them arguing back and forth but not really making any solid points, it was a good attempt at making it seem like one of them was town if the other flipped scum. But all of that is unraveling right now.

1: Um... From memory, only one or two of my points can be considered WIFOM. The rest weren't. Also, you aren't one to talk considering you even admit your vote for me is based on WIFOM:

I feel like we were observing a busing attempt and then when the opportunity to save his scum buddy presented itself, he took it. Although, your idea of an attempt at a quick-lynch seems just as likely;

so, this kind of becomes a WIFOM argument, but none the less, something to think about

. I have a feeling that either Shotty or Fake are scum, because otherwise that transition of vote doesn't make that much sense to me.

2: Explain. I don't think you've given any reasons aside from disliking my FakeGod case.
3: Explain. Most of your reasons for suspecting me yesterday revolved around me defending Richard. Richard flipped town, so those points are pretty much null tells at the least.
4: Even if I had called an argument stupid, I have still tried my best to defend against all the points brought up against me, so I don't see why it matters. Please quote an example of me calling an argument stupid

and

not defending against it.
5: How was my vote opportunistic when it was switching off of a bandwagon that had two more votes?
6: Sure there was. Shotty was getting replaced. He was contributing hardly anything which was my main reason for suspecting him. With another player replacing in for him, it would've given me a better chance to read that slot and I wanted to give the replacement time to catch up.

Also he gave Shotty (my suspected scum buddy for him) a "neutral" read on his "list", and almost every game I've played where a scum has made a "list" he lists at least one scum buddy as neutral. Since I'm one of the others listed as neutral, I know that scum is Shotty.

LOL!!! You are the king of WIFOM...

Tell me, how is

this

very point

not

WIFOM? I could be scum giving neutrals on two townies to trick you. But then again, I could be scum giving a neutral read on my buddy so I could just bring up this argument. But then again... Get the picture?

You seriously need to learn how to scumhunt. You can't accuse me of using WIFOM and do it yourself in the

same

post. Seriously. Learn to scumhunt.