Zachtown in the mountains (Game over TOWN WINS!)

[Furcolow]

if he is scum, redcoyote would be a good lynch
im fine with that

unvote
vote dryfit

[Benmage]

***********I want everyone to weigh in on their view of Dry-fit in their next post.

His iso is small if you need refreshing.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

I like a dry-fit lynch

Furcolow seems to like any lynch that either is generally agreed upon by the majority, or that threatens him.

[VP Baltar]

Vote Count #10 of D1 P1

Redcoyote - 4 (KaleiÐoscøpe, Mina, Percy, Elmo)
Dry-fit - 4 (Oso, Locke Lamora, Benmage, Furcolow)
Jasont1981 - 3 (Nikanor, RedCoyote, Dry-fit)
Furcolow - 2 (Mongoose, JasonT1981)
Nikanor - 1 (Sotty7)
Benmage - 1 (Imkingdavid)
Oso - 1 (I Am Innocent)


Not Voting: ()

If I made any mistakes, please politely point them out and I will correct them.

Deadline for (Both phases of) Day 1 is Thursday November 12 at 12pm CST

With 16 alive it's 9 to lynch.

[Elmo]

I'm pretty sure I'm supposed to post. We probably need to kill someone soon? I think I'm going with Sotty's read on Jason, plus Red + Dry-fit voting for him. I think most people should move to one of the major reasonably soon.

I think Dry-fit asked about Red. I did explain, but it's easy to miss; I independently thought similarly to Mina, but couldn't really pin down what was bugging me, still can't; but when I read Red's posts, the voice in my head is that of a creepy old guy.

He's just so totally unoffensive and middle-of-the-road though. Literally almost everyone who's been posting regularly has found something to take issue with or press or do something somehow. I'm a little biased because Red (arguably) blindly tunnelled on me, but from my point of view, what are the odds this is the same guy who manages to see everyone's side of everything vs. he's just scum lying low?

[Sotty7]

It's easy and weak in my eyes because I have played a bunch of games with Jason. This is how he fails as a townie, he acts before he thinks. As scum he is much more calm and controlled. I don't agree anything he has done today is obv scum at all.

My vote is easy and weak because the meta you have after playing with jason offsite for years points to jason being town. Craplogick more.

How is this crap logic?

You have done absolutely nothing to convince me or anyone Jason is scum. Your initial case is weak:

What made you come to that conclusion based on that quoted statement? I would think scum have day talk.

It says night talk, and the only modifier to the usual unlimited night talk that I can think of is limited night talk. Where are you getting day talk from?

On the Double Day page, Cell F16, it shows 39.04% winning pct. That is the exact number I got if we use all our lynches (39/61). Nik this is far from 50/50...

I guess I should have double-checked the numbers myself, but I could have sworn I told Zach exactly how many people to use.

Very anti-town behavior here. If you have nothing to hide, you would supply this information willingly.

"You would" means you think he has something to hide. You stated earlier that you thought Benmage was town. This is scummy.

This is random. Nikanor, why are you only asking Locke this? And what do you expect to learn about his alignment from his answer?

Locke and I *used to* have a perfect win record when we were on the same team (which I believe has happened every game so far). Basically, I asked him his alignment.

The jasonwagonofone needs more love. This is just terrible, and this combined with jason's attacks on IAI makes jason obvscum. More votes over here please.

One last question. Elmo, would you consider yourself a gut player?

You don't explain why those two posts are bad or why they make him obv scum. You spend more effort addressing others than you do trying to be convincing about this “case”. It's tacked on and bad. Feel free to redeem yourself a little though by explaining

why

this is scummy.

You then claim day cop. Is this supposed to convince people to join? Calls for more people to join, but no effort to build your case beyond post 117. It's like you want a wagon but don't even believe in it yourself.

You really aint made much of a case though, you have mentioned me really mostly in passing

What.

The way Elmo said it.. it sounded like he already knew allignment with the pretty obiviously mistaken if they think they are scum comment.

So Elmo is scummy because you think he called Benmage and IAI obviously town, but now that he has corrected his meaning, you don't find that scummy any more. So really, you're only voting Elmo for buddying up to IAI, another person who you find scummy.

I stand by my post in 98.. I feel they are valid points.

my 'attacks' on IAI as you say I feel are valid, he spent more time leading direction away from sdcum hunting and towards facts and figures etc. I feel that is anti-town as taking away from scum hunting only helps scum.

The point I was trying to make is that you're attacking Elmo for buddying someone who you've stated is scummy. That doesn't make any sense from a town perspective, because not only is buddying a weak tell, but it shouldn't take precedence over the things you've said about IAI.

Elmo, do you think that jason is scummy?

We should probably try to lynch somebody within the next six days if we're to leave ourselves enough time to fully discuss our second lynch. That's not a lot of time. I'd really like a jason lynch, so hop to it.

Finally a little expansion, but none of these points are compelling. You are hanging onto Jason and I don't see the reasons why.

I still think that jason is scum, but Sotty's defense of jason is making me uneasy.

I find Sotty scummy for her crappy reasoning for her vote on me and the fact that she hasn't moved her vote to a bigger wagon yet, despite saying that she wants a lynch within the next couple of days.

Two things.

1: Why am I scummy for defending Jason when you seemed to like Elmo defenses of IAI earlier in the thread?

2: Why is the bold scummy to you when you have done essentially the same thing? This is your second attempt to move my vote off you. I don't get the desperation.

[Sotty7]

I get that we probably won't be lynching Nikanor today (grr) so expect my vote to move towards one of Dry fit or Red by the end of the weekend at the latest. I'll be honest, it's a toss up between those two for me. Both have horrible votes on Jason, both have been non committal (probably more Dry Fit than Red here). I'm leaning towards Red right now though. I will look though both ISOs before I leap.

[Benmage]

I'm pretty sure I'm supposed to post. We probably need to kill someone soon? I think I'm going with Sotty's read on Jason, plus Red + Dry-fit voting for him. I think most people should move to one of the major reasonably soon.

Why does Red + Dry-fit voting Jason make you like voting Jason more?

For me it actually turns me off from his lynch. Plus I've gotten so many noob-tells from the guy I'd rather not have him be the first lynch. Maybe the second...we'd assess that obviously after imo a dry-fit lynch.

I'll tell you this right now. With the information at hand, I will not be voting Jason.

[Benmage]

In fact Elmo.... could you go ahead and bullet the case on Jason for me please.

[Benmage]

Another thing is I think DH flips scum. I'm not buying his claim. So afterwards when there is only one lynch and;

Diddin(who probably dies tonight), Slaxx, Simo, Jase, and obviously myself(to myself) are confirmed. The last scum exists within yourself, Smit, and TL.

Catering to DH, and following what he's saying about himself to be town (although I don't believe this) means that when he dies TL also goes to the confirmed side. Meaning you and smit are the last 2 scum. This isn't setting-up multiple lynches this is logically deducing who could possibly be the remaining scum.

[Benmage]

FUCK....Last post is in the wrong thread^^^^^^^^^^^

Mod can you edit/delete?

[Elmo]

Yeah, sorry, it's not ultra-clear, but that meant "I'm going to go with Sotty's read on Jason and thus don't want to lynch him right now". I currently want to lynch Red and Dry-fit, tho I'm going to reread the latter soonish.

As someone who knows Jason on a personal level, this V/LA is real. He's going to watch the 49ers play in London.

I've been saying for awhile now that I think he is town. He has a tendency to get into trouble like this because he tends to play on emotions and will just knee jerk to everything. As scum he is much more composed.

This fits for me, and obv she knows him better than me. I'm not sure about her alignment, but it's enough to let him live, at least a bit longer.

[Benmage]

Oh woops....I think I blundered thinking you were voting Jason. Gotchya now.

[I Am Innocent]

Getting a town read on Red and Dry Fit.

Right now it is a toss up between Jason and Furcalow, but I'm moving my vote to Furcalow because of the following two reasons:

1) Sotty's defense of Jason makes me wary that he is scum, or they both are scum
2) Did not like Furc's reasoning for his vote on Red, after declaring a town read on Red back on page 8. Factor in what I think was a mild protection of scum Oso on Furc, and I'm going back to guilty by association.

unvote
vote Furcalow

[Benmage]

I don't think furc is a viable lynch. Not enough interested...Not for the first lynch at least.

Elmo, Kscope.

You both said a willingness to switch to Dryfit...lets start making lead wagon. Please switch your votes to Dryfit.

[Benmage]

V/LA until Monday

[Percy]

redcoyote: I caught his claim but it was a joke, since he had admitted to lying a few posts later. All of that happened while I was asleep iirc. I didn't think too much of it until the whole Jason thin evolved which was a rather stupid case. He made a mistake. I can see why he kept the vote on after he admitted to joking. After finding out is was a vanilla game he took it off. Unvoting was a possibility, but he had a case and maybe a bit of regret in his vote. I excuse that.

I find it interesting that no-one else pointed out that mongoose is referring to Nikanor, though he says RedCoyote. And later he says:

On the other hand, redcoyote's posts aren't really that great. There is alot of irrelevant and silly stuff, along with some questionable points (like his votes on sotty and nikanor, I didn't quite catch the reason for those).

According to the (completely misapplied) Bemmage theory, this is some scummy skimming.

@mongoose

: What do you make of the Dry-fit case?

@Percy: Why do you have a town read on Locke, Kaleidoscope, and Jason?

Locke - Succinct and considered townie posts.
KaleiÐoscøpe - I liked it when he pointed this out.
Still,

@KaleiÐoscøpe

: Why do you still like the RC wagon?
Jason - I think his mistake points to town in a paradoxical way, like IAI self-voting. I also thought this reaction was town, seems to me like scum would be more hesitant in that situation to just jump in like that.

---

I don't even know what to think of this big pile of what the fuck.

Humans....making errors? Like forgetting things??? Impossible. String me and mongoose up right now! LAL! Right Percy!!! Why aren’t you voting me anyways? You think lying is acceptable? That’s messed up.

Except it's actually completely different.

Jason

mongoose says he misread

the game

a different game. It

's

might have been quite a bad misreading. Scummy? I don't think so. But he hasn't now, several posts into clearing up this misunderstanding, said he "forgot".
Your hysterical defence is again noted.

You continue to misrepresent my points. I don't even know why you voted me and called me "100% scum". That's just absurd, and I think you know that.
I think you lied. I think you've exploded since being caught. I haven't voted you because I've had trouble locating the scum motivation - lying when you don't have to is a pretty scummy thing to do, but it could (have been) just be an overdefensive playstyle thing.

3. I Am Innocent –town

I don't know why IAI is a townread for you, especially given how you started this day out. Also your scum-by-wiki version of scumhunting surely means IAI is scum with that self-voting business, only scum self vote right?

Things are not adding up for me with Bemmage at all. I'm liking the Dry-fit wagon less because of him.

Unvote, Vote: Bemmage

. Will re-vote RC at deadline if it comes to that.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

Unvote Vote: Dry-Fit

. I am switching my vote, mainly because I want to see two lynches today, and with the rate this town is thinking, I don't see two lynches happening soon. And only one or no lynches will be bad for us.

so:

[]=====

=====[]

And I'm getting a bit tired of the players doing the "OMG, HE CALLED ME SCUM. I'M TOWN SO

HE

MUST BE SCUM!". It's really a bad way of both townie ignorance or bad scum bussing.

I still like the RC wagon because RC has not convinced me otherwise to not keep my vote on him. He will still be my prime target, regardless if dry-fit gets lynched soon.

[Percy]

And I'm getting a bit tired of the players doing the "OMG, HE CALLED ME SCUM. I'M TOWN SO HE MUST BE SCUM!". It's really a bad way of both townie ignorance or bad scum bussing.

Is this referring to me? I can't see who else it could refer to. Oversimplifying my case, implying OMGUS, ignorance or bussing, good job.

You switched of RC. Why were you on him in the first place? I asked you in my last post why you were voting RC, because your vote started random and became not-random, as far as I can tell. Now you've switched to Dry-fit, dropping the RC wagon from three to two, and the only reason you give is because you "want to see a lynch".

How about I imply that you're not giving any arguments, are opportunistically wagon-hopping, and are casting aspersions on cases you know nothing about?

Townread: annihilated.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

Thanks for proving my point.

[Furcolow]

Getting a town read on Red and Dry Fit.

Right now it is a toss up between Jason and Furcalow, but I'm moving my vote to Furcalow because of the following two reasons:

1) Sotty's defense of Jason makes me wary that he is scum, or they both are scum
2) Did not like Furc's reasoning for his vote on Red, after declaring a town read on Red back on page 8. Factor in what I think was a mild protection of scum Oso on Furc, and I'm going back to guilty by association.

unvote
vote Furcalow

@mod does this even count?
he didn't even spell my name correctly.

@i am innocent: your crap reasons are masking the real reason: that I have accused you of being scum before
you only vote people who believe you are scum
you have no case

[Percy]

Thanks for proving my point.

And what would that be, exactly? That whoever speaks second is wrong and probably scum?

Oh and I don't know if I mentioned this, but:
1. What did you like about the RC wagon?
2. Why is Dry-fit the superior choice for today?

[imkingdavid]

Alright, I'm pretty much back from v/la, but right now it's time to go to bed. I'll have to catch up and post sometime tomorrow or Monday.

[Benmage]

OMGUS by Percy looks all too appropriate, wouldn't you say.

[RedCoyote]

What would you expect him to do then for it to seem real?

You fess up (that you don't know the setup) and then you drop it. I don't get why he had to beleaguer the point. He wasn't in any sort of threatening situation. It's paranoid looking. The worst possible damage that could've been done had he not started flailing his arms was that he'd have been lynched as a VT and then the town would've been all over Nikanor.

In my opinion, jason's freaking out is more in line with what he'd do as a Goon if he felt like he was being threatened. He immediately threw a post up saying that Nikanor didn't know his "proper role" and voted as opposed to calmly reading all the posts after the claim. Then, almost anticipating being called out for making such a hasty vote, he feels the need to correct himself and reinforce his vote with complete bs (that Nikanor had never made a case on him).

It doesn't fit for me, Sotty.

What happened to the Nikanor wagon?

Like I told Mina, it wasn't anything major. He seemed to be tunnelling, but it's nothing to rest a case on, in my opinion.

---

Jason just comes across to me as a bit clueless and lost. His votes and accusations thus far seem like someone who hasn't got a handle on the game at all.

You know why this is, right? Because he's scum. He has completely knowledge of the game, and it's throwing him off exactly what he's "supposed" to say as a VT.

---

Neither looks particularly good to me. IaI for his meltdown (which I hate to admit does point to a townie coming unhinged under pressure from my experience

This is getting on my nerves a bit. "IAI doesn't look town because of his meltdown. The meltdown makes him look town, though."

Pick a side.

I'd bet money right now that if Zach opened the mafia quick-topic for pre-Day 1 discussion, the fact that this is a vanilla game came up. In my mind there is a decent chance none of the jason/IKD/Furcolow trio is scum.

That's a pretty good point. I hadn't considered this. Still, it's a pretty big assumption to write three people off for. You'd also be writing off mongoose for this, right Oso? He admitted to the same thing.

I can more easily agree to the "if one flips scum, the others look more townie" idea though.

---

We have about 2 weeks still to lynch, so this isn't damning, but JasonT should have his vote out somewhere by now.

Agreed.

---

My side? What side is that, exactly?

That jason was acting like a normal VT.

Also, of course a daycop with a guilty should claim. What if (s)he's the first NK? Sure there's an argument for waiting for a little while to observe them, but I don't see why it's a bad idea.
And anyway, aren't you saying that Jason is the bad guy here? He's the one that said it was scummy to claim so early, iirc.

The entire argument is moot given the setup, so it has no bearing on anything relating to jason or this game as a whole.

How is this different to Benmage vs. IAI? Especially with the "forgot" comment.

I don't see the connection. I don't care for Benmage and his over-the-top anatagonism towards you, but I don't know if that makes him scum or not. IAI seems townie to me.

---

as I said, I am the popular wagon.. this all feels like a easy jump on to me.

Poor you.

---

There is alot of irrelevant and silly stuff, along with some questionable points (like his votes on sotty and nikanor, I didn't quite catch the reason for those). However there has been alot of stuff I think is townie behavior as well.

Talk about fencesitting. This sounds like you're laying the groundwork to get onboard the RC wagon. I have no idea what "irrelevant and silly stuff" you're talking about. The so-called "questionable points" is just a buzz word for you meaning, "Hey, I don't feel like reading this player thoroughly, but I know someone else brought this point up at one time or another, so, yeah, just consider me seconding it".

---

Mina, I have a town read on Locke because I have agreed with everything he has posted so far. Simple really.

...but he said he didn't understand the wagon on me. Explain, please.

---

oh
well, if you know him on a personal level, what do you find his role to be?

She just said she thought he was town based on meta. Fur, this is the third or fourth time I've been unimpressed with you.

---

Question for the group, did the following strike a nerve with anyone?

I

almost

made a comment about it. I stopped because I understood what she was saying. It was kind of out of the blue though.

---

The RC wagon is meh, as I don't really find him suspicious. As far as I can tell the whole wagon is just based on gut and meta.

This is the comment I was looking for. This is the best summary of my wagon yet. Bear in mind that Mina and Mime (Kscope) have never even played with me before.

---

What do both of you think of IAI and myself. Please repeat if you've previously stated...i just wanna keep everything fresh.

Scroll up to my last comment for Percy in this post.

What is quite telling?

jason said that Nikanor was lying about him because he's not scum and votes him. A couple of minutes later he says, "i see above he is lying" refering to Nikanor admitting the obvious fact that there is no Cop in the game. As Elmo pointed out, there was no need for the second post. The second post shows jason's first post to be a complete sham. The first post is just a forced reaction.

In other words, it's like the second Nikanor says he's a Cop with a guilty on jason, jason reacts with a revote and a protest without so much as thinking about it. He has to because he's scum. If he would've taken two seconds to think about it, as I think a townjason would have, he would've realized it was just a dumb joke.

dry-fit and RC are both good lynches.

7. RedCoyote -null
9. Mina -null
10. Furcolow –worth policying
15. KaleiÐoscøpe –null
12. Imkingdavid – null to scummy
5. Percy-100% scum
8. Locke Lamora-scum
14. Dry-fit - scum

These contradict. Explain.

---

***********I want everyone to weigh in on their view of Dry-fit in their next post.

Not a fan. I wouldn't be upset if he was lynched.

---

Furcolow seems to like any lynch that either is generally agreed upon by the majority, or that threatens him.

Agreed.

---

He's just so totally unoffensive and middle-of-the-road though. Literally almost everyone who's been posting regularly has found something to take issue with or press or do something somehow.

I don't like jason or Furcolow. Something doesn't sit right with me about Sotty still. I don't care for Dry-fit much. mongoose just tickled my fancy a little bit a possible scum member. I boldly claimed that IAI is townie looking. I think Oso, Percy, and you have all done well enough for now (at least until this post that is).

I can see why you feel the way you do, but given that this is the first time I've heard this argument, you can imagine my skepticism. Nikanor has been the only player who has been able to adequately describe my wagon so far, and this post absolutely solidifies his point.

---

I don't think furc is a viable lynch. Not enough interested...Not for the first lynch at least.

Why are you trying to cut a potential Furcolow lynch off at the knees? I'd love to see his wagon move up to the top. Him being ignored by some of the more active players has been criminal. I think a lot of players here are currently phoning this game in.

---

I still like the RC wagon because RC has not convinced me otherwise to not keep my vote on him.

Huh? How am I supposed to convince you of anything if you don't ask me anything? I was ambivalent about your vote until here. I'm not a mind reader. I assumed you were actively reading my posts and eventually going to start making points against me. I also assumed that someone would actually force you to back up your positions, but so far everyone has been content to pile on against me given that it's the easiest thing to do (read: Sotty, Benmage, Furcolow, mongoose, and to an extent Elmo and Percy). At least Mina has been upfront about voting me on the basis of gut. You've just been, and continue to be, an enigma.