The Gameplay Improvement Thread

[horrordude0215]

ALL THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE POSTED IN HERE DON"T NEED IMPROVEMENT.

I SOOOOOO WANT TO GET FURCOLOW INTO HERE.

You don't think I need improvement? You're one of the few!

[Ythan]

Incoming.

[Elmo]

Now taking suggestions for the under/over of pages of this thread after one month. My initial guess would be five.

Quoted for having told you so

[Fate]

Has it been a month already?

>_>

[jmj3000]

Sorry Fate. Ok, here are the three games where I feel i played bad, in one way or another.

Newbie 925: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13624
Open 211: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13655
Open 196: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13180

Mainly, I want to know what I could do to improve my scum hunting because of Newbie 925, How to avoid the NK as a PR unlike Open 211, and how to improve my play to prevent being lynched day 1 like I was in Open 196.

Ok, it doesn't have to be just Fate who answers, but I still feel that I suck at forum play. Can anyone give me pointers?

[Elmo]

If I was less lazy I would make a point of explaining why I predicted this thread would essentially be a dead end.

But I'm not. :V

[SGRaaize]

Short answer:
A wants to know good tips
A doesn't want to give good tips

Substitute A with almost every user of this topic, including me

[Mr. Flay]

If I was less lazy I would make a point of explaining why I predicted this thread would essentially be a dead end.

Most people are already struggling to keep up with their own games, much less read other players' games for them and provide feedback to what may be their opponent next time?

What do I win?

[Fate]

@Elmo: Human nature is self-centered, WHO KNEW?

BUT ILL KEEP THE THREAD ALIVE MYSELF:

jmj3000 I'm reading the game you were lynched D1. Not being lynched is my expertise.

[Fate]

Sorry Fate. Ok, here are the three games where I feel i played bad, in one way or another.

Newbie 925: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13624
Open 211: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13655
Open 196: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13180

Mainly, I want to know what I could do to improve my scum hunting because of Newbie 925, How to avoid the NK as a PR unlike Open 211, and how to improve my play to prevent being lynched day 1 like I was in Open 196.

Ok, it doesn't have to be just Fate who answers, but I still feel that I suck at forum play. Can anyone give me pointers?

Open 196

1. You used the logic that people voting you for a "bad reason" means they are scum. Town can vote (you) for bad reasons too, so you have to read how geniune their suspicion is of you and how they treat you.
For instance:
[quote="The Tracker]"jmj, not everyone that votes you is scum. I mean yeah, it's RVS but some people hate not voting at all. Anyway, ----.[/quote] Notice how instead of suspecting you or looking for your motives, he coaches you your interpretation of the game. (not everyone that votes you is scum) instead of thinking "jmjscum is omgus'ing people or jmjtown is being newbish and omgus" Instead of looking for your motives he is teaching you abstracts of mafia as a pass for content.

2. It is well into D1 and you are still discussing your stance on the RVS and defending yourself for not voting in it. At this point you should have been looking for scum-asking questions, pressuring players, clarifying motivations.

3. Several pages go by without any posts from you. Being as active as you can is the EASIEST way to start improving town play, and everyone can do it.

4. "Sorry, my internet got cut off at home, and I just got access to a computer with internet. After reading through the posts, I think Zach is trying to get rid of Haylen after he figured out that she was town, so Vote: Zachrulez" -oh I see. Well then, your first post coming back should be a detailed commentary on all that you missed. This vote was really vague, and also poorly reasoned. Zach is trying to lynch Haylen after

figuring out she was town?

he either knew she was town from the start (scum), or is town trying to lynch a newfound town read, which makes no sense.

5. You explain your lurking meta. Meta explanations are usually null, but they are also not pro-town. Either give excuses for your activity, or be more active. A lurker playstyle is never going to be a pro-town one.

6. You unvote having misread the posts in question. You then promise more reads, but your next several posts revolve around defending your meta and not actual content.

7. You are really spending way too much time playing defense here. When confronted with accusations, defend them ONCE and then move onto the people in the game voting you or not voting you and whether it would make sense for them as scum.

8. Your read of Haylen+Zachrulez as scum was unexplained, and you also said in this post "im afraid to give scumreads because y'all will just find me scummier." Town should NEVER care about how scummy they think, only their opinions and reads matter as that's the only way town has to catch scum during the day.

9. You get lynched. It happens, it always will. Sometimes its hard to produce content when under that much pressure, but the key is to being providing content continuously throughout the day so that you never FACE such pressure.

10. The town goes on to lynch the last two scum one after the other. As you can see, you were a distraction and removing you was in the best of town's interests, and they went on to win anyway. Sometimes players who "might" be town but are not providing content are very viable lynch targets. Trimming the fat if you will, so don't be afraid to vote someone who is lurking and may be town, because they aren't doing a good job of it.

[Lateralus22]

Mini 1021: Battousai's Mountaintnous Mountain Mafia (Over) - Most of the important stuff I think is on day 2, any suggestions as to improve my cases/play? I know the WoT thing was a big thing to improve but I'm wondering if there's anything else.

[KittyMo]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13461

I had really anti-town play there, and any critiques would be appreciated!

Spoiler: Day 1

I'll do a readthrough now. If anyone has any questions for me, feel free to ask

This is your first post upon replacing in, and your first impression is...well, friendly, and a bit dull. Remember, even as town, you want people to find you intelligent if you want to be listened to. It seems like you could've phrased this better to make a better first impression.

Okay, here's a player-by-player analyis of everyone so far. I know there have been a lot of cases on players, but don't expect me to parrot them. Hopefully, I will provide new cases on some people or provide a different perspective on the ones already stated...

DiamondCrash - Neutral leaning town. Haven't really got much of a read yet. All I know is that I don't consider the whole L-2 scenario to be worth much at all in an even halfway decent scum case. (Most of my reasons on my Zodiark anal.)

RedFox - Possible Scum. Actively lurking. Only posts analysis when asked. Other than that, his posts are mostly fluff.

Trumpet of Doom - Neutral. Hasn't posted much yet, but I look forward to seeing him contribute more as an IC.

Zodiark13 - My strongest suspects for a few reasons.

That has snippets of your third post. Your reads are decent for the beginning of the game. To me, it seems like you focused too much on personal dislike of Zodiark's style rather than actual reasons for him being scum. None of your reasons seem substantial to me. It also seems like you neglected to notice DiamondCrash's fluffposting because whenever he posted content, he agreed with your main suspicion. I've found in experience that the tells you listed for RedFox are the *best* way to catch scum in the early game. Not a bad post otherwise, though, except...well, it seems like you didn't need to mention your town reads and 'buddying comments' so early (about ToD, Almaster, Captain Pandemonium) or to list off your entire suspicion list (as you did in your 4th post). Those pieces of your post seem to help the scum test waters and work things to their advantage more than it helps town. You say in a later post that it helps "eliminate the possibility of a mislynch," but no one on your townlist was under suspicion at that point...

While I personally would be fine with a Zod lynch, we still have about a week and a half to make our decision. We should probably wait a little bit longer, IMO

(Post 5)
Yes, you recognize that deadline is far away and that more discussion should be had...and you leave your vote on Zodiark13 and make no further investigations and such? Dunno, seems like you could be doing something more useful at this point -- even if Zodiark13 was scum, you could be finding his buddy...

If people would see Z's scummyness we would!

Again, you're overestimating the strength of your Zodiark case, and you haven't mentioned any new points on him. Posting overconfident one-liners isn't really providing good content.

Then you make this post, responding to Zodiark13's posts without even still trying to decipher whether he's scum. You paint him as scummy for "twisting your words" (which is something I think is overused as a scumtell; town makes mistakes) and OMGUS (see MD thread, town does it too). Yes, Zodiark13 isn't acting all that pro-town, but it's more of an anti-town frustration than scumminess from my standpoint. Consider what your reaction would be if someone was posting basically no content except to attack you for reasons that...aren't all that substantial. :S Mafia's all about perspectives!

Spoiler: day 2

That wasn't the point... it was true that TeW was probably the most pro-town player we had, and for ToD to be suggesting something so filled with WIFOM is ridiculous. I gave him the benefit of the doubt in Day 1, but with him doing something like this, I don't think so any more.

Vote: Trumpet of Doom

This is another case of you being convinced you're right because you happen to disagree with a player on how to play the game. I don't get the "benefit of the doubt" thing since you didn't ever really have a scum read on ToD. It seems like you have something personal against NK analysis. Just because you might think it's unhelpful, doesn't mean that only scum do it. Plus, I don't really understand the scum motivation of bringing that up, unless TeW thought Trumpet was obvtown or something. I don't see how promoting discussion about scum motivations should be tossed aside as scum promoting WIFOM for sure, you know? Plus it's ONE TELL. o_O You could come up with like 8 for RedFox.

Next post has you being overdefensive to RedFox. You only remembered he was scummy when he talked about you. <<;

When Trumpet posts against you, your scumdar flares up on him again magically. It's a motif! :O Seriously, you need to control your suspecting-me-equals-scum-thing. I've seen you do it in other games. You need to keep that in mind when reading someone that has attacked you that your emotions may be getting in the way.

Also, why are you mad at ToD for not mentioning RF when you only mentioned him...once...before doing that?

Contradictions are scummy... if you contradict yourself, I will notice it, and I will lynch you for it.

<_<; Also, I hate this quote. Seriously. Town contradict themselves. EVEN YOU DO IT AS TOWN.

Umm, horrordude in this post you attack ToD largely on WIFOM. I thought only scum used WIFOM...?

Everyone: Please notice that ToD said that he would use his daykills on *gasp* everyone but himself and RedFox, the two scummiest players in the game! Hmm... but it's probably just coincidence, right?

Yeah, but doesn't it seem stupid if he was scum about to be lynched to make a huge connection with his buddy? Especially since he's an IC. This doesn't seem to make sense and seems to be confirmation bias speaking. "OMG ToD MUST BE SCUM BECAUSE HE'S BAD AT SCUMHUNTING"[/quote]

Also, no offense, but I'm getting bored of reading your walls....

OOH SHINY POST.

Ok so here's how I'm feeling right now.

I feel like the damage is done and there is no redemption for me. I don't know how to go about fixing this mess. I wasn't left in a good position when I replaced in, and the way my own words have been misconstrued and have placed me into a precarious position. I'm not going to replace out, because I wouldn't want a noobie to jump in at L-1.

Instead, I have a proposal. I want to be lynched. Lynch me, and then look closely at my bandwagon: I'm positive that there's at least 1, if not both, scum on it. I've already given my opinions on the situation multiple times... I believe that shad and trumpet are scum. I know that I could very well be way off in my reads, but the point remains... Most of you have your fingers pointed towards me which I know is wrong, but there's nothing that can be done about that. I'm the distraction that the mafia needs right now. The Mafia would be stupid to NK me because I'm currently taking the heat off them. If I'm not lynched today, I guarantee I will survive the NK. That leaves me around in lylo, and I know that the second a townie puts their vote on me, scum will double bandwagon for the win.

Right now I feel that the hill is too steep for me to climb and this is the best way for you, the townies, to get some answers. I'd rather go out today and get people on the right course for lylo. Getting rid of me now is the right choice.

So that's my proposition. Take me out for the greater good. Given that ToD is the only other lead besides myself, I'm probably your best bet due to the fact that I'm still learning how to properly play and get my attacks down. There's no use in dragging it out until the deadline.

Do the right thing people, but know that I will self-hammer if you need me too.

Pro-tip: If you're going to make a post like this, don't. Go wait until you're in a better mood. Giving up is a bad mood. It's not helpful to your faction. The "I was left in a bad place when I replaced in" is emotional garbage because...your replacement didn't even say anything. In reading the whole thing, I suppose it's not that bad if you truly believed you'd be a lylo liability...but considering you finished out the game and won, that shows that you were wrong, because you were tainted by hard feelings. I know it's annoying when everyone seems to suspect you, but it's not the end of the world and you can still get scum lynched. It's easy for scum to call "LOL AtE die" when townies make posts like that; true story. It's not right or fair, but it's true. When you get to that emotional point, don't get cooped up in defending yourself -- read the thread more, find scum. Prove them wrong.

I find this to be an offensive personal attack: Please refrain from that in the future.

Yeah, you're being overdefensive here, and it's not making people want to listen to you. In the future, just ignore it and don't respond. If you have a serious problem with a personal attack, talk the the mod.

Spoiler: day 3 and 4

You made the right decisions in lylo, though you seemed rather uncertain considering that all game you'd thought those two were scummier than the other lynching options. Why so unconfident when you're right, and confident when you're wrong? Teehee. BTW, it was good play for the scum to kill the cop over you -- if you had died, then the cop would know who was scum and it'd be down to a crossvote, and Shad probably felt that Almaster would definitely not vote for DK because he'd so easily believed DK the day before; the buss seemed unlikely.

Understand that I mean everything here in the best way possible & etc., and see what you can get out of it -- I just kinda typed what came to mind. Lol

tl;dr
1. You need to understand scumhunting more. People disagreeing with you and attacking with you aren't obvscum, nor is the opposite true. -_- Contradictions also aren't scummy in most cases. There are also scummy things you notice but don't give adequate attention to.
2. Your emotions seem to get in your way a lot. Trust me, I know how it feels. Don't be afraid to take a step back and refrain from commenting on something immediately that you feel is tainted by emotion. Once you're more calmed down, you'll have a more accurate perspective on things, and people will be less likely to call you out on "OMGUS," "AtE," and "overdefensiveness." (all evil overused tells that aren't usually scumtells)
3. In the early game, be more open-minded. You haven't seen enough yet to have clear, accurate reads. In the late game, though, you know what you're doing for the most part by then. Have more confidence then.

yay!

[KittyMo]

If I was less lazy I would make a point of explaining why I predicted this thread would essentially be a dead end.

But I'm not. :V

If I was less lazy I would make a point of explaining improvement to people's gameplay.

But I'm not. :V

[Fate]

HALP HAS ARRIVED <3 KittyMo

[KittyMo]

You listened to my reads.
I'm not always right y'know

pro-tip: don't tell people this

Also, Fate, maybe update the first post to have threads that haven't been looked at yet?

[horrordude0215]

I love you Kittymo

Thank you for the help... I've been really working hard at all of those things, and I think I could actually improve with some of the advice Thanks SOOOOO MUCH!

[jmj3000]

Sorry Fate. Ok, here are the three games where I feel i played bad, in one way or another.

Newbie 925: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13624
Open 211: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13655
Open 196: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13180

Mainly, I want to know what I could do to improve my scum hunting because of Newbie 925, How to avoid the NK as a PR unlike Open 211, and how to improve my play to prevent being lynched day 1 like I was in Open 196.

Ok, it doesn't have to be just Fate who answers, but I still feel that I suck at forum play. Can anyone give me pointers?

Open 196

1. You used the logic that people voting you for a "bad reason" means they are scum. Town can vote (you) for bad reasons too, so you have to read how geniune their suspicion is of you and how they treat you.
For instance:
[quote="The Tracker]"jmj, not everyone that votes you is scum. I mean yeah, it's RVS but some people hate not voting at all. Anyway, ----.

Notice how instead of suspecting you or looking for your motives, he coaches you your interpretation of the game. (not everyone that votes you is scum) instead of thinking "jmjscum is omgus'ing people or jmjtown is being newbish and omgus" Instead of looking for your motives he is teaching you abstracts of mafia as a pass for content.

2. It is well into D1 and you are still discussing your stance on the RVS and defending yourself for not voting in it. At this point you should have been looking for scum-asking questions, pressuring players, clarifying motivations.

3. Several pages go by without any posts from you. Being as active as you can is the EASIEST way to start improving town play, and everyone can do it.

4. "Sorry, my internet got cut off at home, and I just got access to a computer with internet. After reading through the posts, I think Zach is trying to get rid of Haylen after he figured out that she was town, so Vote: Zachrulez" -oh I see. Well then, your first post coming back should be a detailed commentary on all that you missed. This vote was really vague, and also poorly reasoned. Zach is trying to lynch Haylen after

figuring out she was town?

he either knew she was town from the start (scum), or is town trying to lynch a newfound town read, which makes no sense.

5. You explain your lurking meta. Meta explanations are usually null, but they are also not pro-town. Either give excuses for your activity, or be more active. A lurker playstyle is never going to be a pro-town one.

6. You unvote having misread the posts in question. You then promise more reads, but your next several posts revolve around defending your meta and not actual content.

7. You are really spending way too much time playing defense here. When confronted with accusations, defend them ONCE and then move onto the people in the game voting you or not voting you and whether it would make sense for them as scum.

8. Your read of Haylen+Zachrulez as scum was unexplained, and you also said in this post "im afraid to give scumreads because y'all will just find me scummier." Town should NEVER care about how scummy they think, only their opinions and reads matter as that's the only way town has to catch scum during the day.

9. You get lynched. It happens, it always will. Sometimes its hard to produce content when under that much pressure, but the key is to being providing content continuously throughout the day so that you never FACE such pressure.

10. The town goes on to lynch the last two scum one after the other. As you can see, you were a distraction and removing you was in the best of town's interests, and they went on to win anyway. Sometimes players who "might" be town but are not providing content are very viable lynch targets. Trimming the fat if you will, so don't be afraid to vote someone who is lurking and may be town, because they aren't doing a good job of it.[/quote][/quote][/quote]

Thank you my good sir. I shall start to work on these things.

[KittyMo]

Gameplay Improvement Threads Awaiting Attention
Requested	Requester	Game Name/Type	Length	Advice Request
20 Sept '10	RichardGHP	Mafia 113: Mafia in Mendo	50 pgs
20 Sept '10	RichardGHP	Mafia 107: Christmas Tree Mafia	72 pgs
21 Sept '10	Maemuki	SWNII: Curse of the Nekomata	101 pgs
21 Sept '10	CSL	SWNII: Curse of the Nekomata	101 pgs
21 Sept '10	Parama	Mini 1016: Quick and Dirty Mafia	11 pgs
22 Sept '10	VasudeVa	Mini 986: Beatles Mafia	24 pgs
25 Sept '10	jmj3000	Newbie 925	25 pgs
25 Sept '10	jmj3000	Open 211	35 pgs
26 Sept '10	Untrod Tripod	Mini 1003	32 pgs	How to close out a game as scum
30 Sept '10	Haylen	Ladies Night (Lg. Theme)	41 pgs
22 Oct '10	Lateralus22	Mini 1021: Mountainous Mafia	43 pgs	Day 2 specifically

Also, thanks to TheButtonmen, Fate, Yosarian2, Cogito Ergo Scum, flinter, chamber, and Faraday for your help.

[Fate]

Nominate KittyMo for Best Contribution to Mafia Discussion/The wiki - "Professor Mafia" Award

Click here, its for a good cause

"If good people never got rewarded, this world would have ended a long time ago"

Now I'll do my part and attempt one thread a night for advice. Starting tomorrow of course >_>

[Uite]

I've been having some trouble with being overzealous, tunnelling and getting the wrong people lynched. Good examples would be Newbie 972, Day 2 with my accusation of Chimp Pants; and Newbie 1000, towards ICEninja. Any suggestions for avoiding that pitfall?

[Netopalis]

Uite, as a player in the newbie game, I can say that you were not terribly overzealous. You were convinced, true, and you were effective in your conviction. The problem is that you can't

always

be right - instead, you must be willing to accept that you will mislynch on occasion. That doesn't mean that you should be any less dogged about your attacks. You may want to remember to continually evaluate your position based on discussion, though.

[Uite]

Netopalis, you're back!

The problem isn't so much that I caused the mislych, it's more that I tunnelled and didn't consider the possibility they were town. It's a lot more pronounced in Newbie 1000, where I was basically tunnelling ICEninja the entire time. It's the tunnelvision that I have the biggest issue with, not necessarily the strength of my conviction.

[Netopalis]

Tunnelvision is a necessary evil, though. When you scumhunt, you obviously must eventually decide that somebody is scum. You could be right, you could be wrong, but if you act timidly when attacking, you will never find out and your talents in finding scum will be wasted. Sure, you probably should have reevaluated, but that's a judgment call. Just stop every few pages and review the weight of the evidence from a blank slate, then decide if you still feel that your target is scum. If not, then call off the attack. Also, if you feel that you're grasping at straws and making something where there is nothing, that's another hint that you're off, or at least are attacking somebody before the appropriate time.

[Rhinox]

Fate, I'd like to here if you think there was any way I could improve my play as tracker in /invitational 11. You know the scenario, but for everyone else, I tracked Papa Zito D1 and Spyrex D2, and then (basically) CCed scum DGB day 3 without claiming my results because both players were still living and went no where, and it was a semi-open setup in which scum knew which and how many PR's were present. I was then killed N3.

I heard some mumblings about my choice to CC so I was just wondering how I could do it better next time. My thinking was, town needed a scum lynch, and I felt scum-DGB was getting off the hook and town-plumpom was about to be lynched. (turns out plumpom was actually scum RB...) Also, I expressed a strong town read on DGB so I felt I'd never just be able to switch to persuing her lynch without a good explanation.

linky

[Narsis]

Mini 1044

it only just finished so not everything has been revealed yet. even so, you dont need to know that to see how bad a game i had. any constructive criticism on what i can do to improve my play?