Mini 1075 - Fishtown Mafia

[Lrdwhyt]

Confirming as well.

[Lrdwhyt]

VOTE: Lrdwhyt because I can't pronounce his name.

Lord without the vowel, white.

What exactly is popcorning? And when did the cop die?

[Lrdwhyt]

VOTE: Lrdwhyt because I can't pronounce his name.

Lord without the vowel, white.

What exactly is popcorning? And when did the cop die?

I claim, I pick who claims next they claim they pick the next person and so on.

I was talking metaphorically. There's a far less chance of there being a cop in this game than there were years ago.

Ah, I see. Assuming massclaiming is a legit strategy (doesn't sound like it is), how is claiming one by one better than just claiming all at once?

[Lrdwhyt]

OK. This is a normal game, 11 players. We're mass claiming today right now. (Popcorning of course.) I'd like nocmen to start us up. (i'd like people to take into account the fact that since the death of the cop role I can only see good things from this.)

Out of curiosity, why do you want nocmen to start?

He's best able to false claim (if he's scum).

HF: Do you understand the idea behind mass claim?

Lrd: It'd be better if we could all claim at once but we can't.

Vote: HF

Nonsense argument against the mass claim.

Could at least provide an argument for the mass claim? I'd be interested in hearing why you think it would help.

[Lrdwhyt]

No, everybody in town has to claim truthfully and we can then use the claims to work out who the falseclaim scum are.

I disagree. Claiming might help in one way, but it most certainly doesn't help in figuring out who the scum are. It just narrows down the lynching pool if done correctly.

I support massclaim because it'll help us win the game.
1. We force scum to take the guess now rather than running them up and then letting them get away with claiming a power role later.

That is true.

2. We may be able to work out a breaking strategy or work out a role that wouldn't be in the game to allow us to lynch scum.

How exactly would you do that?

3. It lacks many problems. Town power roles are more numerous than they used to be and as such the classic argument against MC do not apply.

In general, maybe, I don't know for sure, but you don't know for sure. This could be an all vanilla, one cop setup, for all you know. If this is your reason for wanting to mass claim, then it's a bit of a risk.

HF: Your argument "town will false claim in order to screw over the town" (or whatever reason you're using) is complete nonsense, that'ds not up for debate.

Noc is clearly the best player. If ou don't read old games then look at his join date.

I hope you're not serious. Join date has nothing to do with skill. And I'm not just saying that because I joined 5 days ago.

[Lrdwhyt]

You said falseclaim scum.

3. Those are good reasons for claiming, I guess, but they don't cover the trade-offs of claiming; outing all the roles helps the mafia in picking kills. If the mafia don't claim any important roles, our important roles get picked off. I haven't played any games on Mafiascum, but I think that's too much of an assumption to make.

That's not a skill...

There are advantages to mass claim and in all honestly I see very little disadvantages.

There are always advantages to any strategy.

[Lrdwhyt]

What are you talking about...if there were no disadvantages to mass claiming, people would mass claim every game. The disadvantage is that the mafia gets to know everyone's role. You don't know that there are no disadvantages in this game; initiating a mass claim off an unsubstantiated assumption is stupid.

They're just as likely as anyone else to last to LYLO if they're not blatantly obvious about it. Unless the mafia has a rolescanner or something. Which, I guess, is possible.

[Lrdwhyt]

The odds are very good that we won't be put into a worse position. That's just not the site meta any more.

Considering how other, "more skilled" (experienced) players don't seem to be agreeing with you, I think not.

But they will be blatantly obvious about it. We won't get powerroles at then regardless of whether we claim or not.

Perhaps they shouldn't be, then.

RQS!!!
1. What can we expect from you activity-wise?
2. What time zone are you in?
3. Are there any circumstances in which you would hammer someone you believe to be innocent?
4. What generation are you in/from?
5. I'm OCD and needed a fifth "question."

1. I post any time I have something to add, which should be multiple times a day.
2. EDT
3. Yes, if there was a good reason to believe that they weren't innocent.
4. I'm enrolled in an American high school.
5.

[Lrdwhyt]

AD: We know that MC will help. (the unrefutable logic I've given that's only been answered with "You're questions" or idiotic statements) So its only logical that I'd want a massclaim.

Can everyone agree that MC will:
Not have an impact on whether we have confirmed town in lylo.
Force scum into a position they'd rather not be in.
Give town greater information and allow them to better hunt for scum.

(Also since we know AD and HF are the scum we can get them to claim first.)

If I wasn't convinced before that you aren't seriously arguing for a mass claim, I sure am now. How, in any way, was your logic irrefutable? Your asking for a mass claim was either a joke and you're not even trying, or you really want a mass claim, and you're hoping that no one will actually read your arguments.

1. As someone else said, no. Outing the roles means power roles die, thus decreasing the chances of having confirmed town in LYLO.
2. Depends on whether they're early in the mass claim or not.
3. Yes.

And if you do have an ulterior motive, do explain now. It seems obvious that no one is supporting a mass claim, so you may as well explain why.

[Lrdwhyt]

Well I have a huge like for calling people town with no reason. Get used to it.

Or just vote me off.

Vote: AdumbroDeus

I think he had other motives behind suggesting a day 1 claim. He's obviously not dumb enough to think people would have agreed to a mass claim. And this game isn't full of inexperienced players so he wasn't trying to take advantage of anyone. Recklessness = Town in my eyes.

This bothers me. You provide no reason other than you think empking is town, and not wanting him in lylo is scummy to you. You're buddying with empking, declaring that he's town with no reason other than, "I have a huge like for calling people town with no reason." Your vote is baseless other than your belief that empking is innocent. Also, how is recklessness any more of a town tell than a scum tell? It's wifom. "Oh, the scum don't want to be lynched, so they won't act reckless, but the townies are less worried, so they can be reckless." "So wouldn't scum act reckless to appear to be town?"

Your entire argument is a relativist fallacy combined with buddying.
VOTE: DavidParker

How is recklessness a scumtell? By your logic, scum would give off towntells all the time, thus making them scumtells as well.

[Lrdwhyt]

I'm not saying it is. What I'm saying is that DavidParker said it was a town tell, but that's complete wifom because scum could use it to appear town.

I don't think this would be called WIFOM. It's perfectly normal for someone to point out that someone else has a towntell.

But the entire argument for or against empking's townliness is wifom. He could be scum, but why would scum push forward an idea that makes them seem anti-town? If he's town, why suggest it at all? But maybe he's scum, pushing the idea because he wants us to think that he's town pushing a scum idea because no scum would be dumb enough to push an anti-town idea. It gets us nowhere.

You really like WIFOM, don't you? But, no, it isn't WIFOM. Empking did something that could be ascribed to being scum (trying to influence 'weak' players), but is a questionable move as an innocent. The possibility that he's scum trying to seem innocent by doing something that seems like a scum move exists, but saying his move could be scum-motivated isn't WIFOM.

[Lrdwhyt]

Again, because all you need to do is look at the fact that strong players can push through ideas were are fundamentally destructive to town. I can provide a wonderful example from my days as a noobish mafia player from another site in the form, of chrono trigger mafia (http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=274820), check out the endgame interaction between the confirmed indies and town.


There, you have a concrete reason why it would advantage him to do it as scum and no concrete reason to do it as town, unless he's got an esoteric role (normal game guidelines...). If he has some other reason, he'd best explain it, fast.

Why fast? I wouldn't mind an explanation as well, but this makes it sound like you're setting him up for a quick lynch if he fails to respond the moment he logs on.

[Lrdwhyt]

A mass claim today doesn't seem to be the best course of action. I don't think it's a good idea to ever mass claim until we get to LYLO, or if there's some sort of situation in which a mass claim would benefit us. I'm pretty sure that Empking doesn't actually think the mass claim would help the town. He's either mafia trying to get us to mass claim (a bold move for a mafioso), an innocent with some sort of gambit up his sleeve, or a seriously misguided innocent who doesn't like to listen to logic.

I don't know where DavidParker got his innocent read from, and him saying that he likes town reads for no reason certainly doesn't help things. His admission to willingness to use logical fallacies to advance arguments is stupid as a scum move and still stupid as a town move. Does he even know what a logical fallacy is? If he's really always this dumb, then I'll give him a pass for horrid play. If not, significant behavioral changes are always causes for alarm, especially negative ones.

I think the main concern I have with Emp's idea is what was previously mentioned - I don't think someone like him would propose it like the way he did. I also don't think we should take that as any kind of tell towards Emp, because anything aobut him making it so obvious that hes town/scum because of that idea can be taken down to WIFOM.

@cruelty - why do you think davidparker is "incompetant"?

I assume it's because of DavidParker admitting that he doesn't mind using logical fallacies.

AD: We know that MC will help. (the unrefutable logic I've given that's only been answered with "You're questions" or idiotic statements) So its only logical that I'd want a massclaim.

Can everyone agree that MC will:
Not have an impact on whether we have confirmed town in lylo.
Force scum into a position they'd rather not be in.
Give town greater information and allow them to better hunt for scum.

(Also since we know AD and HF are the scum we can get them to claim first.)

If I wasn't convinced before that you aren't seriously arguing for a mass claim, I sure am now. How, in any way, was your logic irrefutable? Your asking for a mass claim was either a joke and you're not even trying, or you really want a mass claim, and you're hoping that no one will actually read your arguments.

1. As someone else said, no. Outing the roles means power roles die, thus decreasing the chances of having confirmed town in LYLO.
2. Depends on whether they're early in the mass claim or not.
3. Yes.

And if you do have an ulterior motive, do explain now. It seems obvious that no one is supporting a mass claim, so you may as well explain why.

Lrd:The last two points are in my favour (though I disagree that it requiresx thenm to be early in order to be put into a bad position) and we will not have confirmed town period. That's it.

I'm willing to drop suggesting MC but any argument put against me HAS to take into account the fundamental fact that MC is the best move for the town to make otherwise your delibrately helping scum.

If you want to take that path, then at least explain why you don't argue for a day 1 mass claim in every other game you're innocent in.

[Lrdwhyt]

So, what are your feelings about lynching based on stupidity and bad play more than simple scumminess? This is directed at everyone, by the way.

Generally, I think it's better not to lynch people simply for stupid cases, bad play, etc. Only if it begins hurting the town is it really an issue.

If you're not talking to me, I'm not suggesting we lynch people just for being incompetent. But I do think taking a second look at people who are playing incompetently when they usually play competently is a good idea.

[Lrdwhyt]

Haven't posted for a while, sorry about that.

I've stated why I think empking is town.

The reasons for thinking those 2 is scummy is because the way they voted+made cases seemed like oppurtunistic scum. Their votes didn't seem "sincere" but rather them trying to push a mislynch-wagon through (and this strenghtened my town read on empking)

The MC is obviously largely WIFOM (Although not entirely), it's not a good suggestion to make as town, but then how does it help him if he's scum? IT just puts him in the limelight and gains negative attention (Something I know all too well, and believe within reason is a good way to start a day), so with that I find it more likely a town than scum would do it, and the way he dealt with it after was very town.

Do the townies out of you who are on my/emp's wagons plan on doing some legit scum hunting and go after people who are actually scum on our wagons?? Or are you happy to vote for me for being known for anti-town behaviour and empking for getting discussion started by drawing some negative attention to him.

I think you forgot the obvious motive, which would be to get everyone to mass claim. And he didn't get negative attention for suggesting the mass claim until he started failing to be able to argue for the mass claim, and had to resort to using flawed logic to argue for it. Your logic is stupid. It doesn't help him if he's town either, but there's a possibility of it helping him if he's scum.

And agreed that lynching someone for being anti-town doesn't really help.

AdumbroDeus's theory on why Empking wants a massclaim makes sense. After it was made clear that mass claiming was a bad idea, Empking kept arguing for it, sometimes using flawed logic, despite how obvious it was that a mass claim wasn't going to happen. If he's town, there must be a reason for him doing it, and he refuses to tell us.
It's only logical to assume that he's scum, and either wanted a mass claim, but can't back out of wanting one now, or is trying to distract us from scumhunting with stupid ideas.

There's a scum benefit to a mass claim, but it's still WIFOM because a mass-claim was NEVER going to happen day 1. He knew that, we knew that, everyone knew that. Hence it is WIFOM. If there was a realistic chance of a mass claim occurring then maybe it wouldn't be wifom and it would be scummy but that was never going to happen.

Can we stop talking about WIFOM now????

No, he wouldn't know that. It's entirely plausible that he thought he would be able to convince everyone to mass claim. So, no, it's not WIFOM.

One of DavidParker and EMP are scum, probably not both. EMP is by far the most likely here for obvious reasons.

Which are?

This suggestion by Adumbro is ridiculous (since it's not true) and borderline scummy for setting up two mislynches. I'm struggling to find a scum-motive behind claiming something like this (since scum know it's not true), but it's enough to warrant my vote.

Vote: Adumbro

Would it not be ridiculous if it were true?

I'm well aware of what WIFOM is, and yes I believe we can't interpret Emp's want for a MC as a scumtell because of it.

Not a scumtell, it's a move that's scummy, but can have town motives - it currently lacks any.

The reason this is my first game proposing a mass claim is because I think early MC is the best case in Mini normals and just mini normals and even then only when its plain like this one. (themes are crazy and larges are VT's infected)

Everyuone, I want a mass claim because its the best play. Just for that reason.

No, you don't, and you know it. I'm going to VOTE: Empking unless he can provide one good reason for why his advocating a mass claim is a town move.

[Lrdwhyt]

I've been saying let's go pass it for a long time now.

That still doesn't explain your behaviour.

I might have agreed with two of your reasons, but there are not more advantages than disadvantages at this point. That makes any point you have kind of moot, as it's

not

a good idea to mass claim.

[Lrdwhyt]

I've been saying let's go pass it for a long time now.

That still doesn't explain your behaviour.

I might have agreed with two of your reasons, but there are not more advantages than disadvantages at this point. That makes any point you have kind of moot, as it's

not

a good idea to mass claim.

Give me the three disadvantages then.

Quantity doesn't matter, quality does.

[Lrdwhyt]

In case you didn't know, there are some people who push for an Empking policy lynch practically every game he plays in

This is not even remotely true.

Lrd: You said there were (at least) two disadvaantages. Either admit to lying or tell us them. Don't dodge the question.

Trying to be pedantic, now? I meant that the disadvantages outweighed the advantages.

Perhaps

you

should stop dodging the question. Or do you not have an answer?

[Lrdwhyt]

Incognito: I don't remember, possibly. One game though, especially one with somebody who has a grudge against me isn't "practically every game".

Lrd; What querstion? (Seriously though. "

I'm

not dodging the question

you

are."?)

Why were you trying to argue for a mass claim?

The disadvantages to a massclaim are pretty obvious. The mafia gains knowledge of everyone's role.

[Lrdwhyt]

All caught up. This game sure got off to a bang.

Empking seems town for proposing an idea that immediately makes him the center of attention. I don't believe it was some sort of wifomy gambit by scum to try to appear town by acting "too scummy to be scum".

Except he wouldn't know that he would be the center of attention immediately when he first proposed the idea. It doesn't really mean much.

First, goes along with empkings massclaim proposal. Then votes davidparker for thinking empking is town. Then posts this gem in regards to emp:

I'm happy with my vote where it is. Just because he's obvscum to you, doesn't mean I believe he is. He could very well be, but it's three pages into the game. That's far too early to pass judgement on who is definitely scum.

Then by fallen's 12th post in iso, he's suggesting that empking is "misguided town" for pushing an unpopular idea, and referring to mass claim as if he were seemingly against it the whole time. What i mean is, statements like this:

No, I actually hate wifom. Empking wasn't trying to convince "weak" players, he was trying to convince the whole town. Yeah, it's questionable for an innocent player to do that, but that doesn't outright prove that he's scum, either.

seems to imply that he's acknowledging that mass claiming is something scum would typically suggest, but that contradicts his iso #3 where he said he saw no harm in mass claiming.

I believe fallen_angel's initial vote for DavidParker was more for his lack of reasoning than the actual thought itself. The second part seems to be accurate, though.

At least some of them are you mistaking catching Lrd out in a lie and talking about mass claim.

Lrd: I've answered that question almost once a page (possibly an exageration). Because the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

And once again: No, they don't. What are you trying to accomplish here?

Regardless, just proposing it significantly hampers town, it's a distraction and it makes it a lot more likely that PRs will drop tells. So why would town EMP would do it?

Because for some crazy reason, he genuinely believed that it might actually be beneficial for the town? I completely agree with you when you say it's been a huge distraction and that it could have potentially forced PRs into dropping tells, but I'm still failing to see why Empking-scum would do something that bold when he'd have had to have known it would be an unpopular position to take that could potentially make him see the noose in a hurry. And yes, I realize this is subject to WIFOM, but so is everything that leads us to believe one player or another is town.

It is conceivable that he thought it would succeed.

@Rhinox...in post 201 you weigh in on the hot topic of D1 (Emp’s MC push) by saying (and I paraphrase) that he seems town for suggesting an idea that would be scummy and thus make him town because scum would not try to come across as town by proposing a plan so scummy scum would never do it (aka WIFOM). Which of course would make it a good suggestion for scum to make. Or not. Or maybe.

No, your paraphrase is wrong. Empking is town for suggesting an idea that makes him the center of attention. I never said the suggestion was scummy. I never said it wasn't. But scum generally don't like to be the center of attention. Therefore, players that put themselves under scrutiny intentionally I generally view as town.

Now, is it possible scum would put themselves under a lot of suspicion in an attempt to look town? Possibly. But I think scum would rather look town while avoiding suspicion.

Once again, he didn't necessarily know what would follow his suggestion. That does not mean anything.

How is my comment suggestive? I’m saying ~Even though I myself do not have anything to claim I’m against a massclaim because it will out all our PRs. I don’t know how to clarify the comment any more than that.

I mean, this is basically saying, "Hey, I'm not a PR but I don't want scum to know all our PR's". Guess what would happen if everyone who's not a PR would say they're not a PR...? Thats what empking was talking about earlier with the "soft vanilla claim" thing. If you're town, its anti town because you're making it easier for scum to find the PR's, and if you're scum, its... idk really. Maybe you were hoping someone else would say "I don't have anything to claim either". But if you're going to claim vanilla on page 3 or whatever, you might as well be for a mass claim.

That's a good point, but I thnk havingfitz was just pouring wine.

Answer to your question: I do remember it being suggested early once, but I don't remember which game, nor do I remember if it was T/S who proposed it/.
And your sole suspect list is Emp, correct me if I'm wrong here. You don't suspect anyone else?

Also, to the people debating the MC replys, you do realize Emp proposed the MC to see who would be up for it, its not like we actually started the mass claim. I presume that if we did, then it would be suspicious for someone to skip out on it.

I somehow doubt that. Empking keeps arguing that a mass claim is a good idea, when it clearly isn't. If he were town and reaction testing, I'd expect him to at least drop the mass claim arguments and provide some sort of analysis of the information he's gotten...but he hasn't.

Anyways, sorry about my slacking off, but I'll try to reread this thread tomorrow and provide insight into something that doesn't revolve around Empking.

[Lrdwhyt]

vote Corvuus

The fact that the FA lynch didn't happen and no lynch was allowed to happen makes me think it is even more likely FA/Corvuus is scum and his buddies didn't vote for him to allow a no-lynch to happen.

{havingfitz, lrdwhyt, cruelty, nocmen, DP} - there are definitely scum here for allowing the mislynch to happen, whatever corvuus' allignment is.

Makes sense if Corvuus is scum, but it doesn't say much of anything at all if he's innocent. And for the record, I didn't realize deadline was so close/had passed until I read the end day post. That, and I didn't much like the fallen_angel case, and likely would've abstained.

Incognito: If town wanted to lynch FA then surely regardless of FA's alignment scum wanted him to live.

That...doesn't make much sense. If scum wanted anyone who town wanted to lynch alive, then they'd be fighting against every lynch that happens.

Unvote

- I've read another game that Singer is in and I'm no longer convinced she's scum. (I think its playstyle)

Vote: Lrd

You are all over the place with your votes.

I've voted two players today. That's hardly "all over the place".

Do you have a reason for voting Lrdwhyt?

He's a lurking liar.

What are you talking about?

Anywho, fallen angel seems like he has the best shot of getting lynched

As deadline was approaching, Empking and fallen angel were both tied at L-3. Incognito broke that tie by voting fallen angel, saying that he was more likely to be lynched...not true, as they were tied, and Adumbro followed. If Empking is scum, then Incognito probably is as well. If fallen angel is scum, Incognito probably is innocent, unless both Empking/fallen angel are scum.

Going to say that the lack of a scum hammering fallen_angel doesn't look good for Corvuus, but it definitely doesn't guarantee that he's scum. Although, I also thought that him stating Rhinox scumslipped, but not following up was strange, but he was already voting someone else for a "scumslip", so again, not a great indicator of lack of innocence.

I disagree with you. While Empking might have thought he could have eventually got the town to agree with him and he might even think mass claiming is the best strategy, he didn't even try to back up his proposal with solid reasoning or really try to convince anyone. That tells me the proposal was more of a "kick start the game" type of proposal, rather than an earnest proposal. I mean, do you really think scum goes "oh hai mass claim time we should do it because its the best plan because it is" and just expects everyone to follow along without question? That'd be naive for empking to think that, and its lazy scumhunting to think that makes empking scum.

No, go back and read. He did repeatedly say that massclaiming was a good idea, after the first time, making it sound like a genuine proposal rather than just a reaction test type thing.

see, right here. So you're saying you expect scum to keep arguing for an unpopular course of action that has half the town calling for his head?

Probably not, unless he has no way to back out. And his play doesn't make sense for an innocent who has a scummy for best town performance. So...yeah.

[Lrdwhyt]

Prod received, sorry. I'll get something up soon.

[Lrdwhyt]

No, go back and read. He did repeatedly say that massclaiming was a good idea, after the first time, making it sound like a genuine proposal rather than just a reaction test type thing.

Yes, but he never attempted to justify why or convince anyone else that it was the best idea, IMO. I just don't think empking is naive enough to think he was really going to convince anyone to massclaim without justification.

Are we playing the same mafia game here?
His ISO #4, #7, #8, and #10 all have him explaining why massclaiming is a good idea. He didn't suggest the idea and stop there. He did, in fact, try to push it, until it was pretty clear that no one was going for it.
And for the record, I might have claimed, as this is (one of) my first game, so I have no idea about the site meta.

I agree fully with corvuus's first post. However, his permutation post really bugs me. How is Emp and DP both town work out with them? You explain two, and both scum seems fairly obvious, but both town you make no explanation or attempt to explain that, and by sheer probability, you need to assume that as the most likely case. It's weird though given his conclusion, that if Emp was town, why would he worry about DP buddying him?

Actually, did Emp ever have an issue with DP buddying him and thinking that Emp is town?

I didn't.

Lrd: Your lack of posts today made you a lurker and we've already discussed how you lied.

That makes me inactive. Go look up what lurking is..

Okay, tell me. How did I lie?

Empking still not looking any better. If I lied, then why would he not vote me and push for my lynch? You may suspect other people, but lying about something pretty much makes you confirmed scum. And if I'm confirmed scum, then you really should be voting for me, and no one else.

I don't have a second because I still haven't reread and I'm forgetful, but Empking scum makes DavidParker scum or neko scum more likely.

[Lrdwhyt]

Lrd: Youb said "disadvantages" when you couold only think of one "disadvantage" this is scummy because it suggests that he wasn't really thinking about what he was saying or, more likely, he wasn't thinking about what he was saying with a town motivation.
Also, the accusation that I haven't voted Lrd is clearly a lie.
What is lurking?

Lurking is reading but not posting, or reading while contributing very little.

Wow, that's the lie? No wonder you're not voting me with any conviction. I used the wrong phrase out of two near synonymous ones.

Empking scum makes DavidParker scum or neko scum more likely.

How exactly is that? At the moment I rather doubt that emp and DP are scum together, and I'd really like to know how you tie me in with emp.


DP, I'd still like to know why yesterday, while you were the only one voting AD, you said you saw merit in the FA wagon and you saw nocmen and singer as other candidates, and yet you didn't move your vote. I understand the bit about thinking there was more time before deadline (not sure that I believe it, but I'll entertain the possibility), but why was your singular vote on AD more pressing than voting any of the other three? Also, what do you think of AD and Nocmen now?

Nevermind that. I misread the part from which that conclusion was derived. Incognito broke the tie between Empking and fallen_angel saying that fallen_angel was more likely to be lynched, but that could just mean it would be easier to get others to vote fallen, not claiming that fallen_angel had more votes than Empking (which would be incorrect).

[Lrdwhyt]

I really wish you would either pay more attention, or not misrep.

My desire to have my questions addressed was more important at the time. Because it no longer takes precedence, I no longer need a pressure vote. Sorry that happened too quickly for comprehension.

So you did change stances, which was the accusation in the first place.