Reckamonic's Ocarina of Time Mafia..OVER! Was Hyrule saved?

[Le Cupcake]

There is a part of his PM that nags at me though regarding being a neighbor though.

P-edit: Yes, neighbor and masons are different things.

[Le Cupcake]

^AND 2000 WAS MINE, BITCHES.

[DTMaster]

Oh crap I didn't finish my post! Posting my working draft.

@Gandalf
1. Gandalf I was explaining the chess point in response to your attack on my original attack on your Chess stance post claim. I think it was here

2. :S. I dislike this panic about end day lynching. It's like golden fodder material to burn people with panic. Ideally I'd rather have people lynch their scum reads rather then lynch for the sake of lynching (motivewise). Game theory wise I understand, motive wise it's sending me mixed signals:

Note to self: Higurashi would be a person to read over simply due to paranoid delusions of his argument about: "who's a worse lurker". It rings off in my head since it should be a question of "who's scummier", rather then "lurkier".

@Beefstier
1. I've gone over why Jaloc was being defensive because the cycle of attack and defence (Ihmo early game he was the only one being attacked which leads to skewed reads over what's being over defensive). I suggest reading that and putting your thoughts in as well.

2. As well the defense to the voting argument was already posted a long time ago. :S

Can you go into more specifics on these slight scum reads or are you agreeing with all the attacks made on these players since that's about half the list of people who were attacked (at least)

@Nik
1. Two scum is common for a game of this size. Mixed in with 3rd parties. "shrugs and points to my theme game meta in wiki"

2. Depends on the situation of the non-voter. I would agree, but Dram introduced an evolving SK role in CEBM. Reck did have a vote in that game, but he needed to develop his night kill via harvesting souls first. It's simillar situation to day-vig claims. While it's a very public role, it can still be scum. I was a scum day-vig in KMD's Krazy Mafia.

(Aside: Though public roles like Dram's modified Jailer role in Gods of Men suggest else where; which is also countered by the ressurected modified cult role of Faraday :S. But these roles are much different to non-voters but the idea of public roles like this still stands)

Tl:dr; as a theme game I wouldn't apply general mafia role meta in this game.

@Cupcake
Thanks for pointing that out. I remembered since I responded to that question due to this post by Reck/Dram

We're not going to directly lie to you in the role PMs, a la Reck's Mad Mad Mad Mind.
That's all we're promising.

Since you three claimed mason-goddesses to each other: It makes this into a triangle of confirmed basis. That means Chess is sane-cleared to be town (baring craziness, etc, etc, etc but assume accurate assumptions) = 4 players cleared out of 28. It's a start.

@Chrono
Herp derppped unvote. :S I dislike it. You unvote because you don't see your case progressing (which I would rather see you vote and keep on attacking rather then give up like this) and then do absolutely nothing.

@Le
1. :S, even with timezone difference I thought hydras get a QT for communication or something. Maybe if Dram oks it it'll help the communication error.

2. The Katsuki head is active enough for ~4 games, and I posted a direct link to one that finished and Katsuki head did post in the end game talk. Since Monday of the Cupcake's last post:

Katsuki head posted Starting Tuesday:
Attacks TBM (a single liner)
Attack Cooldog
An attack to Spyrex
Asked Kathy a quesiton
Attacked a point that Exe made
Thought about inning in Super Mario Bros
Posted in Mayo Clinic end game

Wednesday:
Mayo clinic end game
Wanted to catch up in a game. Talked to Spy/Elle and wanted to lynch Shotty.

Thursday:
Then attacks RC for the same point Dekes made in this game (activity in other games =/= playing when Katsuki is "catching up in all his games").
You are perplexed by "anti-scum"
Mad at Eli
Outed in Mario

Friday
This game! Woot.

Deke's active lurking statement sticks due to the above activity (which I assume you were questioned by him during this time but you didn't respond). Dekes 2/3 is meh and super weak, especially 3. 2 was negated by 1. The only thing that is legitimately used against you is "active lurking". The rest is meh and 3 looks like Deke is sticking on something for the heck of it.

@BL
Or we could, you know just lynch/kill the man and be done with it. There's a reason for my lynch/kill list. I don't see why you'd wait around for Aikage should post to make a read off him. You could take a pro-active approach. Which actually raises a few questions from that slot so

Selfnote: Read Aikage (if I didn't include him in my self notes earlier)

@Dekes

On Cupcake
1. Post-claim, well mason-link durhhh.
2. Pre-claim I agree with Nikanor's analysis about the BP claim and how Cupcake handled it. As well the shear amount of people questioning how Cupcake's role worked.
3. The only good argument presented against Cupcake was the active lurking statement because that was an actual scummy reason. Hence I outlined that I agree and hinting to at least 1/2 of the heads to respond to me about that. The flavour argument that Ythan used was ugh wtf bbq.
4. I don't mind that LL has been defending him (IHMO post-mason claim explains a lot). I do see how you interpret he's coasting -> see active lurking which is bad. Since I spoiled myself already via reading the mason link:

After-claim, it makes sense now. Pre claim: I agree hence why I brought up the meta link for some pressure. Now the reason is out for the link, I don't mind as much.

Both pre-claim/post-claim: not today's lynch. Pre-claim = person of interest but more importantly person of interest with lots of attackers. It's worth investigating the attackers. Post-claim = even more reason not to lynch him: Mason claim = godly.

Last issue: This breaks if one of the 3 goddesss flip scum (since all flips scum due to mason lying).

On your vote
1. Substrike didn't vote for the wrong reasons? Then explain the following statement:

However, while his [Substrike] vote for Cupcake is for the wrong reasons,

that doesn't change the fact, that Cupcake is again avoiding this thread now that they're not in any danger of being lynched.

You stated that you didn't vote Substrike because of his voting reasons, but because of your original stance. But in the above quote you clearly stated in your vote switch after you stated Substrike only defended his vote on Cupcake. This implies that the biggest reason for the change was the poor voting: which is what was see when you observed Substrike's vote.

What's weird is that you didn't imply any two scum theory/cross-bussing here until I pressured you.

I went back and reread your stances over Cupcake and Substrike.

I read the transition of your Cupcake case as this:
Questioning of Cupcake's scum list and Katsuki head of his partner -> Saying cupcake hasn't given a clear read -> Agreeing that Ythan's flavour analysis is correct with the Naryu fake claim -> Questions both LL and Cupcake -> In Iso 17 drops the flavour arguement but maintains the linkage between LL and Cupcake due to the defensive nature. Kinda ok. Read on and you see this transition into a GIS case -> BL (which includes rolefishing of Zwet and Chess both players who claimed and also were read as anti-town.. odd juxtaposition from earlier Isos to iso 21) -> Substrike for not scum hunting.

It's funny to see this argument (the lack of scum hunting argument is a scum sign) over and over when I also notice a lack of scum reads from Dekes in ISO #2. I see lots of passive scum hunting in regards to commenting on people's scum lists while he "questions" cupcake. Dekes Iso #6 is odd because when you reread the vote on diddin in Iso 3 and compare it to his stances: You see stronger questioning of Cupcake over Diddin. The vote on Diddin seems extremely odd since there was no mention on Deke's stance on him untill questioned.

There are subtle breaks in logic flow that doesn't mesh well. It reads as responsive over case building. What gets me is that Dekes pulled a GIS case in the middle of this read that confounds that. This should be expanded upon:

via self-note: Determine the context in which the case was pulled.

Gut logic says: there is something afoot there.

[DTMaster]

I just read the claim as well: This reminds me of Legacy of Ancients Council mafia where members of the high council consisted of town/scum members. With a neighbor hood that large (which Fate claimed 7-8 ??? I think) this reads as it.

[chesskid3]

Substrike doesn't have to be vigged, btw.
Any of Zoneface,Dekes,JMJ,Substrike and Beefster are cool with me

[RayFrost]

I just read the claim as well: This reminds me of Legacy of Ancients Council mafia where members of the high council consisted of town/scum members. With a neighbor hood that large (which Fate claimed 7-8 ??? I think) this reads as it.

Substrke claimed there are six. I'd trust his number more than fate's guess. Just saying.

[Chronopie]

So #1 longest page. rite?

On Substrike's claim...

Question is, if he has to have Ganondorf die, is Ganondorf Scum? Miller? a townie of other description? and does Ganondorf need sub to die for anything?

--

P.Edit: There are Seven sages in the game. One for each elemental Temple (6), and Zelda as the leader of the sages (#7). But Sub claimed six. Maybe Zelda has a different role.

And if we have confirmed alignment masons, it's probably a

very

high chance of at least one scum neighbour. If there's more than one scum team, they may even each have one.

[DTMaster]

Some thoughts while I mull over this claim.
a. What substrike said about members not claiming unless is necessary is pinging on the towndar for me. (Seems odd to say that now from a scum perspective)
b. Also I have a thought for the sages to think about (do not answer these questions in thread) since it's a crazy idea I thought of that confirms though we shouldn't trust flavour analysis (Aside from Harry Potter Mafia and Nik and I's KOL mafia being good examples of not trusting flavour) but people seem to still want to do flavour analysis.

If a few of you are sleeper roles (as in you need to kill a specific target to gain your powers) it's possible to see that:

a. Dram is accurate to the flavour and it's likely that your targets if they are "villians" like Ganandorf would be scum.
b. If your targets are town aligned players, then simillar logic applies.
c. This validates any flavour analysis since Dram is known to be accurate (see his other Theme games) and any flavour based roles (like a flavour cop).

If there is a larger number of you to fall under this catagory.
a. In terms of villians, accurate flavours cause diminishing returns from scum lost to "town power". Scum would either have to be extremely powerful individually. (If you think about it in terms of game role balancing if all the targets were scum: scum would have diminishing power in exchange for town gaining power). This seems off for balancing it.
b. If they are largely town targets that might balance out (exchange of PRs) but it seems like a huge hit on town (i.e. if you are considering it, it means 6-8/28 people, some who are town to consider town on town actions if flavour was accurate). That's off.
c. It's more likely you have a mix of a and b to equal out the numbers, and this especially works out if you have flavour being independent of roles.

An angle we could try, is to break the game via the neighbours (but we have to assume most of them are town) via the above principle in terms of balancing. I'm not sure if it's possible though.

[RayFrost]

Hmmmmmm. Reading what you said, DTM, I'm not entirely sure that I get how you are thinking of breaking the game from your theory. Following the logic that there's a mix of a and b, we'd still not know for sure what the mix is. In addition, there's the consideration that there's almost certainly at least one scum amongst the neighbors. That will throw off the mix as well. DTM, do you feel that it's a good idea for you to elaborate on your thoughts regarding the game breaking? I'm currently of a mind for you to leave it until at least tomorrow.

[DTMaster]

How is that role supposed to be pro-town? I highly doubt there would ever be 3 adjacent scum players. (It's highly unlikely) To me it seems like it would end up doing more harm than good because it will most likely be targeting 3 town, possibly 1 scum, probably not any more than that. It's basically a mass (fail) roleblocker.

I found this post odd now. I read GIS' role and the above argument sounds like:

This role has anti-town, as most pro-town roles have anti-town elements (i.e. town RB, town doc, CPR doc, cops that are not sane, jailkeepers, vigs, etc) rather then this claim sucks and it's scummy. The purpose is to self direct kills to his bullet proofness (which is the second one claimed in this game lols). It can also direct actions. It doesn't stop cop investigations, nor role blocks, nor whatever.

This role actually makes more sense as a role that a townie could epiclly use to save the town or hurt the town (hence double edge sword). Much like Chess' claim. I don't see why this role = scummy when your arguments show how it fits in the town really well as a role that could do good or bad things depending on how you use it.

[DTMaster]

It works better if there is a few sleeper roles in the neighbourhood (if we can confirm either neighbours or targets) for game breaking strats. If there is a lot more, then there are a lot of holes and the Ythan debate shows that flavour shouldn't be trusted. I probably wasn't clear and I assume the sages have a better idea, but I would like then to weigh in the number of

"sleeper roles -> that require their targets to die" to their targets and see if true flavour accuracy works out.

If it doesn't that means we can screw flavour analysis (so kill half the size of this thread) and play normally.

[DTMaster]

Also Kai

wtf shift?

any more explainations? It might clear 3 more people if there is one or increase the likelyhood of them being town: the person Nik cleared but I think he claimed unshifted powers; the person who was trying to target player X but the cukoos hit Cupcake; and player Y when the Cukoos hit substrike.

[RayFrost]

I think that, right now, we should not go into trying to break the game. Our information is far, far too limited. The only way this works is if the neighbors are mostly sleepers, and having them claim that information seems an iffy choice. Let's hold off on trying to analyze the possibility until we've had some flips, shall we?

[DTMaster]

Certainty, the idea should be entertained in the background while we go forward. :p

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Just so you know, flavor wise, there are only 6 sages.

That part of the Sage claim is true.

[RayFrost]

Just so you know, flavor wise, there are only 6 sages.

That part of the Sage claim is true.

Canonically speaking, there are 7 sages (7th is Zelda). Either seven or six makes sense, as there is the fact Zelda is not

quite

certain as a sage type (as in the element attached, not whether zelda is a sage).

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Zelda is a "sage" but in the game, she is not awakened until the VERY end.

You're right, but it's plausible that she be considered something else.

[zwetschenwasser]

You're all scum. Now die.

[RayFrost]

You're all scum. Now die.

QFW.

[DTMaster]

/activates Martyr powers! Nooooooo. /joke.

[Reckamonic]

BIG DADDY: "It's here! It's here!"
PLUSHIE: "OMG! They're finally doing a live version of Moulin Rouge in Montreal?"
BIG DADDY: "Oh my god. Could you BE any gayer?"
PLUSHIE: "Weren't YOU the one singing Sweeney Todd earlier?"
BIG DADDY: "I..uh...I...SHUT UP. ALL I WAS GONNA SAY IS THAT HAMMER HAS BEEN REACHED!"

Le Cupcake (1): Untrod Tripod
Lady Lambdadelta (2): Blooderection
nameloc1986 (2): "Fluffy", "Bridget", Aikage
Blooderection (1): mothrax
GandalfIzSik (14): KDub, zwetschenwasser, RayFrost, Fate, ABR, Le Cupcake, Lady Lambdadelta, Exilon, Bunnylover, jenniwren, Nikanor, Beefster, Chronopie, Substrike22, Ythan, jmj3000
Substrike22 (5): Hinduragi, chesskid3, DTMaster, JaBOC, Dekes, GandalfIzSik

Not voting: ZONEACE, nameloc1986

[chesskid3]

[redacted]

Don't post after we've posted the hammer vote count.

[chesskid3]

redacted

[Reckamonic]

As the moon starts to appear on the horizon, the citizens of Hyrule grow tired. Eager to get a good night of sleep, they try to find who could want to spread evil in this peaceful land.

Eyes dart to Skull Kid. Rumors have been circulating about him, the moon, and some crazy mask. In a streak of rage, the mob rushes towards him.

"Tee hee hee! Follow me! Follow me!" he cries. Skull Kid darts into the Lost Woods, with a whole mob of angry creatures giving chase.

"Can we keep up with him in here!?"

"Don't lose him!"

Skull Kid laughs and laughs, thinking that he's finally made new friends. "Catch me if you can!" he shouts in a playful manner…but even a child of the forest can't escape a lynch mob. Before too long he is caught, tied up and brought to a great oak.

Skull kid begins to cry, "I don't understand…" but his pleas are drowned out by the roar of the crowd. "I hate you adults!" He cries as a single tear drops to the ground before the rope snaps tight and his last breath escapes his lips. All he wanted was to help save the land and make a few friends. Instead, he found himself an eternity of loneliness.

And somewhere, in the distance, the cuccos lay their heads to rest.

GandalfIzSik [SKULL KID],

Bulletproof Area of Effect Magnet

, lynched D1

It is now Night 1. Deadline is 72 hours from this post.

[Reckamonic]

A new day dawns over the land of Hyrule. The cuccos cackle at the sunlight…however, something is amiss. Near the place where Skull Kid breathed his last, the crowd awakens to find the Great Deku Tree burnt to a crisp. The once-legendary, majestic creature has been destroyed in the night.

However, the burnt verdant creature is not the only thing found dead. A few meters beside the tree lay the body of the two Gerudo witches - Kotake and Koume. They died hand-in-hand, going out the way that only sisters could.

Some of the evil has been purged from the land - but it would be foolish to let your guards down so easily.

Untrod Tripod [GREAT DEKU TREE],

Tunnel-Visioned Devolving-Cop Modified Supersaint

, killed N1
Fate [KOUME],

Fire Witch Lover Copblocker Plant-Killer

, killed N1
Just A Bit Off-Center [KOTAKE],

Ice Witch Lover Jailkeeper Water-Killer

, committed suicide N1

It is now Day 2. Deadline is 3 weeks from this post.