Mini 1042 - Skillville - GAME OVER!

[DemonHybrid]

Um.

We were talking about how he was fumbling around with his case, not how "hard it is to read my posts".

You are trying to find every excuse in the book to kill me.

[DemonHybrid]

Tunnel more, bro.

So, I really do hope you guys lynch this joker after you guys are through ravaging me with useless tunnely logic.

I think I'm going to take the rest of the time of my life to tell you how bad your reads are and how funny the look on your faces will be.

I'm still surprised vollkan didn't hammer me when he was on last night, seeing as how I'm above the "58" point threshhold, especially by 2 points on his cover up scheme...er, I mean points system. That means his points system is bullshit, especially when he takes away points without telling people, acts shady about it and doesn't hammer when the threshhold is met.

[hitogoroshi]

Are you saying you think Volkan is scum?

[DemonHybrid]

....

*slams head against the desk repeatedly*

You're tearing through my ISO and finding the "scummy" parts of it, but you aren't even

reading

.

He, along with you and Reck, are my top three scum suspects.

[Zachrulez]

DH, since your lynch is likely at this point could you post your full suspicion list?

[DemonHybrid]

Oh, and here. I'll give out a scumlist.

Most town to scum

Nikanor/Nobody Special, Zach, Untrod, vollkan, Reck, hitogoroshi

Aye.

[DemonHybrid]

Oh wait, I missed Aldusskel.

Shows how involved he is with this game. One sec.

[hitogoroshi]

....

*slams head against the desk repeatedly*

You're tearing through my ISO and finding the "scummy" parts of it, but you aren't even reading.

He, along with you and Reck, are my top three scum suspects.

I'm aware you said it a couple of pages ago, but when someone is about to die I try to get them to post their scumlist again as concisely as possible. It's easy to dismiss if they flip scum, and powerful to have if they flip town. That being said, I thought your post 669 was posted a few days ago, not yesterday. An updated 669 was basicially what I wanted, but I was wrong that it needed an update at all. Apologies.

Preview-Edit: Yeah, Zach and I are on the same wavelength.

[DemonHybrid]

Nobody Special/Nikanor, Zach, Untrod, Alduskkel, vollkan, Reck, hito.

There you go, sorry about that.

[Alduskkel]

I just finished page six. This game makes me want to take a stroll in a cemetery at night on Halloween with lots of ghouls to eat me alive.
Anyway, here's where I'm at right now, for reference:
Alduskkel - Neutralish, leaning town. I'll read hito's case once I get there and see what that does for me.
DemonHybrid - Scum
Reckamonic - Probtown
hitogoroshi (replaced Socrates) - Leaning town
Untrod Tripod - Leaning town
vollkan - Leaning scum
Zachrulez - Obvtown

This feels familiar: how about you back up your reads?

The first thing I really feel I can pick up and run with is [DemonHybrid's] post 47. Specifically, this line:

By the way, until you link examples of why you think Zach is town, I'll assume that it's buddying, because, once again, there's absolutely no reasoning to back it.

What the hell is this? You asked Reckamonic questions, they were answered. Then you call him out for not providing REASONING? Not everything is a case. It's polite to answer questions, but it's completely, stupidly unrealistic to expect someone to write a "case" regarding every thought they express. A good rule of thumb is that if you ask a question, you should expect as much effort from the answer as it took you to write the question. Assuming it's buddying because he didn't try to convince YOU of his town read is comical.

Do you call this reasoning from Reckamonic?

Zach is town because his posts exhume a feel of genuine town incredulity, like literally all of them. Best way to explain

His post 101 is a power role suggestion/hint. If he claims a PR, this'll make it feel more legit. If he claims VT, this is a little scummy, because it's hinting at a PR for no reason.

I think that unless it breaks the game, claiming benefits scum regardless of the claim. The only reason we do it is to prevent lynching PRs, since that's even worse.

It's clear from your attitudes that I'm not going to get through to you guys, so do what you want. I'll try to answer hito without having a brain aneurysm.

The fact that you're even mentioning how much I'm posting is fucking bullshit and a misrep. The amount someone posts

is

a

complete

NULL TELL.

Extremely active early game. Too active. Now, to be clear, I don't mean too active as in "scummy", too active as in "anti-town." There's a subtle distinction, that being that it's a null tell (actually a weak town tell, in my experience.) It's obvious that posting content = good, and it's all too easy to fall into the trap of posting more content = better. That's not true, though. First off, there's diminishing marginal utility of more posts from someone. An easy way to think about it is, if you make one post a week, that will have whatever you think was most important for that week. If you have two posts, it will be the two most important things, etc. If you're posting sixty times in a week, say, it's very likely that a lot of that is garbage. In addition, players post less when they're feeling overwhelmed, and that is bad for the game as a whole. Still, I've yet to find a single scum player that will do this deliberately to achieve this effect on the town. Townies do it because they think it's the right thing, and scum do it because they think it would be the right thing if they were town.

So you guys agree. Why, then, do you want to make it seem like hitogoroshi is saying you're scum for posting a lot, DemonHybrid?

Another word, to hitogoroshi: While I agree that scum partners will ignore each other (this is actually something I do a lot) I have yet to see this proven as a scum tell. Proven in that, you take a reasonable sample size of games and look at how scum partners interact and categorize it by "buddies," "bussing," "null but respond to each other," and "ignore." Fact of the matter is that scum have potential motivations to do any of the 4, depending on the situation. So I'm not seeing the bussing link between DH and HD.

Nothing to do with the amount you [DemonHybrid] post? I'm saying that LAL is an objective lynch mechanic (post count is a number) and it's an objective lynch mechanic that won't hit you. I'm not saying that only active scum bring up LAL, but I'm saying that every active scum would like to bring up LAL. This has everything to you with the amount you post and I'm kinda confused as to what you're calling a "misrep" here.

I think you're forgetting the fact that lurkers are just plain scummy. Suspecting them can hardly be a scum tell. I agree, there is a Scum motivation there. But I don't see how it is any more likely than the Town motivation.

This isn't always true, but more often than not, a three person scum list from a confirmed scum will have two townies and one scumbuddy on it.

"more often than not" -- what's your source for that phrase? I've seen this theory before. I don't consider it reliable.

I don't believe in towntells.

Then what do you call this?

Reck+3, Zach-2

The Zach attacks from Horror have none of the telltale signs of bussing, and it also doesn't fit with the standard scum pattern of Vote: Townie, FoS: Buddy for Zach to be scum. So, this increases the likelihood of Reck being scum and reduces Zach's

If Zach-2 isn't saying that you've found a town tell, I don't know what is.

Also this quote seems relevant.

(It's also extremely rare for anybody to go below 50. I think the last time it happened was to shaft.ed in 2008)

I don't think vollkan ever established a voting threshold. DemonHybrid, you are remembering this:

In practice, I do find that I tend to rarely have people hitting 70 (which, if I were to put it into words, would be "I am ready to lynch you right now").

Of course this is not actually a voting threshold, since vollkan has voted but no one has reached 70.

DemonHybrid case is BS. Our masons are doing shit for content and not backing up anything. Hito's case is based off of bussing, which is also BS (see above). Reckamonic's case (based off of iso 45) is solved simply by the statement "Being wrong is not the same as being scummy."

Let's now track vollkan's points system as it pertains to DemonHybrid.
1. A hefty +4 in iso 2 for putting me at L-2.
2. -2 in iso 7 "for reasonable benefit of the doubt." This only halves the scum points from the previous addition, but if there's one thing I know about vollkan it's that if he thinks there is a scum motivation and a town motivation, then he calls it null. I'm seeing a double standard between how he treated drmyshottyizsik and DemonHybrid.
3. Iso 13. This is where it gets good. vollkan agrees with q21, saying DemonHybrid shouldn't call Reckamonic scummy for being inconsistent (because he gave reasons). He adds 3. The main thing here is that vollkan votes DemonHybrid, saying he is at 57. You could ask a 1st grader and they will tell you that 50+4-2+3 equals 55, not 57.
4. Iso 14. vollkan takes DemonHybrid's explanation, removes 3. Actual: 52. vollkan says: 54.
5. Iso 16. vollkan lists all of his scores. But he's changed it again! He's added +1 to DH's score for no apparent reason. He goes for his wagon because deadline is approaching and he doesn't want NL to happen. Funny, adding +1 conveniently puts him above DMSIS and Socrates.
6. Iso 34. Adds +3. Actual: 55. vollkan says: 58.
7. Iso 46. Adds +2. Actual: 57. vollkan says: 60.

57 is still very high. But the point of all this is that vollkan's system, his has been trotted out as incredibly transparent and pro-town, is actually inconsistent.

I'm still surprised vollkan didn't hammer me when he was on last night, seeing as how I'm above the "58" point threshhold, especially by 2 points on his cover up scheme...er, I mean points system. That means his points system is bullshit, especially when he takes away points without telling people, acts shady about it and doesn't hammer when the threshhold is met.

Beat me to the punch, apparently.


DemonHybrid, my presence in this game should be going up since my workload is decreasing.

Vote: vollkan

. Points inconsistency just cannot be ignored. It reeks of opportunistic scumdar shifting.

[vollkan]

I'm surprised Voll hasn't hammered me yet. I thought 58 was the cutoff?

Point me please to where I said 58 was the cutoff.

If Zach-2 isn't saying that you've found a town tell, I don't know what is.

A scumtell is an action that is more likely to from scum than town. A "towntell" is the opposite (but I don't think they exist, for behavioural reasons that aren't relevant here)

The point that I gave Zach a - for was neither. Instead, it was simply a process of logical elimination:

1) Espy's use of a three person list has a strong likelihood of containing another scum.
2) Shotty was town
3) Espy's attack on Zach did not look like bussing

Accordingly, those two combined create an objectively greater likelihood of Zach.

2. -2 in iso 7 "for reasonable benefit of the doubt." This only halves the scum points from the previous addition, but if there's one thing I know about vollkan it's that if he thinks there is a scum motivation and a town motivation, then he calls it null. I'm seeing a double standard between how he treated drmyshottyizsik and DemonHybrid.

Keyword: "reasonable".

I put that word in for a reason: I wasn't prepared to give him the full benefit of the doubt on that point. Reason it is distinguished from Shotty and many normal cases is that, while he had a theory reaosn which justified it, it was essentially saying "pressure".

Now, my initial vote was premised on there being no link between the prior post and the vote. He established one, but it was weak (since it rested on a post facto theory position) and didn't match up with what he'd earlier said: he said his vote was ending RVS, but then also characterised it as an RVS wagon.

3. Iso 13. This is where it gets good. vollkan agrees with q21, saying DemonHybrid shouldn't call Reckamonic scummy for being inconsistent (because he gave reasons). He adds 3. The main thing here is that vollkan votes DemonHybrid, saying he is at 57. You could ask a 1st grader and they will tell you that 50+4-2+3 equals 55, not 57.

And it couldn't be a typo?

4. Iso 14. vollkan takes DemonHybrid's explanation, removes 3. Actual: 52. vollkan says: 54.

I didn't say he was at 54 in that post.

5. Iso 16. vollkan lists all of his scores. But he's changed it again! He's added +1 to DH's score for no apparent reason. He goes for his wagon because deadline is approaching and he doesn't want NL to happen. Funny, adding +1 conveniently puts him above DMSIS and Socrates.

It's pretty obvious what's happened there: 50+4-2+3 = 55. I'd just forgotten to take off the -3

And I know how that happened. For the first few + scores, I tallied my points by scrolling down the page. Doing so, I picked up the -2. I then proceeded to use Ctrl+F and searched for +, on the assumption (usually correct) that there weren't - points, and I added everybody's up.

57 is still very high. But the point of all this is that vollkan's system, his has been trotted out as incredibly transparent and pro-town, is actually inconsistent.

It's not "inconsistent". What you mean is that the numbers don't match.

Accordingly, lowering DH by 3:

Scumdar	Score
Alduskkel	50
DemonHybrid	57
Reckamonic	53
Nikanor	53
Hitogoroshi	57
Untrod Tripod	50
Nobody Special	58
Zachrulez	48

[Zachrulez]

Vollkan, you quoted the wrong person there. I didn't say any of those things, Ald did.

[DemonHybrid]

Could have sworn that you did. Apologies on that.

[Reckamonic]

First off, it's worth nothing the game that Alduskkel linked to for meta was only a Reck- part of the hydra meta, and our play is much different as a team than it is solo. Also, we don't recall a single time Nikanor has replaced into a game with Reckoner and NOT immediately gone after him, so we are unsure what to do right now…all we know is that he's voting scum, and we like it.

DH claims vanilla…after some grand threat the page before to claim. HOW ANTI-CLIMACTIC. He also gave up on his case on us because he knew he couldn't push that bullshit anymore, then jumps onto hitogoroshi (anyone wanna post an actual case?). The fact that DH is the main one championing a hitogoroshi wagon also does nothing to settle our reservations.

Zach, arguing with hitogoroshi over his decision to iso DH before everyone else is just a waste of time. That does not make him scummy for iso'ing DH first, at all.

@vollkan: I don't get why we got +3, exactly, and why our scumminess correlates to zach's townieness. Can you elaborate a bit more?

To be honest, that was a very big re-read, and it's kinda hard for us to parse everything out. Alduskkel trying to start another wagon

on deadline day

is a little fucking ridiculous, though.

We'll be here for the next 2.5 hours to respond to people, then we'll be gone for about an hour and a half or two hours, and then we'll be here the rest of the night.

[Zachrulez]

Zach, arguing with hitogoroshi over his decision to iso DH before everyone else is just a waste of time. That does not make him scummy for iso'ing DH first, at all.

It's not scummy unless I can prove he deliberately did it, which is next to impossible. Regardless, I still don't like it.

What I actually find suspicious about Hito's play is the vote foreshadowing hypocrisy I laid out earlier.

The bulk of my suspicion is based on Soc's play. (And I've already admitted that.)

[hitogoroshi]

Hey demonhybrid, what the hell is post 912 about? Cause it looks like something Volkan should have said. Don't tell me we have one person logging in to two accounts in the same game...?

It's not scummy unless I can prove he deliberately did it, which is next to impossible. Regardless, I still don't like it.

My order is alphabetical according to original occupant of the slot, precisely to dodge any allegations of gaming the order. I do agree I probably should have skipped DH, but the concept of breaking ISO order is a new one to me. I'll have to consider it in the future, but skimming my meta will show that alphabetical by first inhabitant is my norm.

Another word, to hitogoroshi: While I agree that scum partners will ignore each other (this is actually something I do a lot) I have yet to see this proven as a scum tell. Proven in that, you take a reasonable sample size of games and look at how scum partners interact and categorize it by "buddies," "bussing," "null but respond to each other," and "ignore." Fact of the matter is that scum have potential motivations to do any of the 4, depending on the situation. So I'm not seeing the bussing link between DH and HD.

I've seen it "proven" as a scum tell. Not all people who are scum blindly ignore each other, of course, but most people who blindly ignore each other are scum. (Or masons, but that's obviously not the case here.) Sure, it's not 100%, but it's a fairly strong one.

[Zachrulez]

Hey demonhybrid, what the hell is post 912 about? Cause it looks like something Volkan should have said. Don't tell me we have one person logging in to two accounts in the same game...?

Yeah, that was bizarre.

It's not scummy unless I can prove he deliberately did it, which is next to impossible. Regardless, I still don't like it.

My order is alphabetical according to original occupant of the slot, precisely to dodge any allegations of gaming the order. I do agree I probably should have skipped DH, but the concept of breaking ISO order is a new one to me. I'll have to consider it in the future, but skimming my meta will show that alphabetical by first inhabitant is my norm.[/quote]

Fair enough.

[Zachrulez]

EBWOP:

Hey demonhybrid, what the hell is post 912 about? Cause it looks like something Volkan should have said. Don't tell me we have one person logging in to two accounts in the same game...?

Yeah, that was bizarre.

It's not scummy unless I can prove he deliberately did it, which is next to impossible. Regardless, I still don't like it.

My order is alphabetical according to original occupant of the slot, precisely to dodge any allegations of gaming the order. I do agree I probably should have skipped DH, but the concept of breaking ISO order is a new one to me. I'll have to consider it in the future, but skimming my meta will show that alphabetical by first inhabitant is my norm.

Fair enough.

[Zachrulez]

EBWOP:

Hey demonhybrid, what the hell is post 912 about? Cause it looks like something Volkan should have said. Don't tell me we have one person logging in to two accounts in the same game...?

Yeah, that was bizarre.

And I'm actually having trouble thinking of any other context that post can make sense other than the context that you speculated on Hito.

Both of them need to respond.

[DemonHybrid]

Hito: because I was actually wrong for once.

all we know is that he's voting scum, and we like it.

No, he's not.

[hitogoroshi]

Hito: because I was actually wrong for once.

Quote for me the text you were responding to in post 912.

[hitogoroshi]

Also,

Mod: Request that the day does not end until this issue is resolved.

[vollkan]

Could have sworn that you did. Apologies on that.

I'm pretty sure this is on the issue of whether or not I had a voting threshold of 58 (but, gods, he expressed it badly)

I'm surprised Voll hasn't hammered me yet. I thought 58 was the cutoff?

Point me please to where I said 58 was the cutoff. [/quote]

@vollkan: I don't get why we got +3, exactly, and why our scumminess correlates to zach's townieness. Can you elaborate a bit more?

1) There is very likely a scumbuddy in a scum's list of three
2) Shotty was town
3) Interactions with Zach are unlikely to be distancing/bussing
4) Accordingly, you are more likely to be scum as a result

[DemonHybrid]

I'm surprised Voll hasn't hammered me yet. I thought 58 was the cutoff?

Point me please to where I said 58 was the cutoff.

[Reckamonic]

Meh, guess that makes sense. Point 1 is debatable, but that's a detail, because we're lynching scum today in DH. Someone needs to hammer before we no lynch and then we will raaaaaaaaage.