Mini 1044: Lie to Me Mafia - Game Over

[Zorblag]

In a conversation the average person lies 3 times every 10 minutes.

Third VoteCount of D3

ZeroFang (1) - Antihero
Narsis (1) - Shepard_of_Wolves
Shepard_of_Wolves (2) - Tasky, Locke Lamora

Not voting: Espeonage, Nachomamma8, Narsis, ZeroFang

With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch. Deadline will be 4:00 PM EDT/1:00 PM PDT on Monday, October 25th.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Tasky

My first instinct would be that scum would not be so ready to bus, especially after not getting their NK on N1. I find it interesting that Tasky didn't really comment on the DK at all until after it was apparent that it wasn't going through, and that his first instinct was to get a fullclaim from me. And especially considering that he's the only nonconfirmed town/survivor OFF the wagon today, I figure we probably have a good chance of him being scum.

As far as on the wagon goes, I don't think Narsis looks very good. Not for hesitating to hammer; no, that was quite consistant with the rest of his play throughout the day. My problem with Narsis is that he calls jimfinn town for the majority of the day then is suddenly willing to hammer, no switches explained, no questions asked. That reads to me like a scumbuddy who doesn't want to lynch his partner in the beginning, but is willing to take credit for his lynch once it's inevitable.

[ZeroFang]

Narsis, I was about to not get lynched. What are you doing?

And, how does that convince you that Narsis is town? What was so persuasive about that?

It appears as if jimfinn tried to buddy Narsis, or at least throw a WIFOM in there. Your response is either planned as scum or you played into their hands.

I'll have more to talk about that in a minute.

ZeroFang is the first person I've seen to chainsaw defend someone and bus him at the same time.

I'm curious as to why you think that, especially when the two contradict each other. An explanation would be great.

At least either I am great at choosing my targets or scum are scared of me confirming townies so much they aren't killing which is a good thing for us.

There are a lot of possibilities. The scum could have been role-blocked the first day and you protected successfully the second, or one of the days the scum could have forgotten to send in a kill and then got roleblocked, or any number of things. I believe your claim, but we don't know if you got lucky or something else happened.

[Espeonage]

No matter if you are scum or not. That antihero quote should be in your sig.

[ZeroFang]

lol yeah it should.

Better?

[Antihero]

VOTE: jimfinn for reasons listed below

I wouldn't say anything so far is truly all that scummy (since it's still pretty much RVS/RQS), but I'm going to RVS VOTE: Tasky

This is the 5th vote on the Tasky wagon, and it's already page 4; yet, jim calls this vote an "RVS" vote. Scumfail

He doesn't seem like he's paying attention here. Normally this could be dismissed as a quick random vote without any context, but if we go on...

There are several Tasky votes, yes. What scumtells there are are minor at best, nothing too serious IMO. Wagon reactions are more likely to create scumtells that I pick up on than RQS answers and related discussion.
---
That is to say, disagreements over the meanings of terms such as rolefishing and the odd capitalization of TOWN do not seem (at least to me) to be anything significant, and no serious reason for voting is brought to my attention, though I am very curious to see how the wagon plays out. Wagon players up and down and see how they react - that's how you catch scum.

This makes it very clear he knew

exactly

what was going on, and he voted Tasky anyway. That's a pretty blatant scum tell.

Here's the bus part of this post.

The argument between SoW and

Trinidad and Tobago

Tasky and Tazaro makes me think that at least one of the three is scum, but I'm waiting for more exchange of rhetoric before I feel confident as to which of them.

Please tell me that everyone sees the fencesit in this post.

I do see it, but I don't think it's as strong or scummy as you make it out to be. You've already shown us why jimfinn is scum. Now you're just reaching.

And here's the chainsaw defense.

Antihero's basically been making weak cases and expecting votes for the entirety of the game. He hasn't done that much scum hunting, and his contributions are quite hard to fine without an ISO.

More chainsaw defense on day 1, when I was hardcore tunneling on jimfinn.

And while we're at it, here's all you had to say about him then:

jimfinn's been lurking up a storm.

Then, all the sudden you jump on his wagon the next day. What changed?

[ZeroFang]

Preemptive VOTE: Shepard of Wolves.

While skimming I found this crap and lol'd. All bolding/formatting is his.

The most PRO-TOWN act today, deadline day, is to LYNCH TAZARO. Who ever is not on the WAGON is suspect. It is so pro-town that I think

TAZARO SHOULD SELF LYNCH

.

It is a vital, extremely important sacrifice for TOWN. We must lynch him at all costs. If he does not lynch himself, and no one does, than he must be LYNCHED for Day 2. That is wasted time for dead, town.

Seriously, we do not have even enough active player to lynch. Unless TAZARO self lynches. Or, Anyone who calls themselves town.

So yea. There's that monster. I should have a full-blown case on him before I go to bed, and if I don't I'll unvote, but Felix tells me I'll find something.

Response to Antihero:
Section 1: You mean my case on him.

Section 2: I said that to SoW too. There's a certain point at which you stop making a good case on someone and it becomes a rant which actually isn't relevant to your otherwise valid case. It's a strike against you, but it's weak. If I were trying to make a case on you I'd make it.

Section 3: If you were wanting it to be noticed you should have made your case more clear and brought it up more. I know SoW's posting was hard to keep up with, but there are ways to make text ultra-visible.

Section 4: The day, the suspects, his activity level, his scumminess, his aggression, and most of the hardcore tunneling.

I actually read you as slight town, however misguided.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

I have done an ISO read on CryMeARiver who was replaced by Locke Lamora. It is consistent with a scum player in my mind. Actually, I think a scum PR possibly.

He had a theory about the "lie detector" role in pre-game. He finally explains the theory in post #66. If he had some sort of mafia PR to block a "lie detector" role, it might suggest its presence in the game. So, if that possible mechanic existed that I suggested, he might have information provided by the MOD that such roles existed.

He explained it by saying that he was talking to a friend. But, he said he had only really seen commercials, and knew the plot. From that comment I do not think he really had much discussion with a friend, or for that matter, got into the depth of conversation that would generate the idea of a human lie detector.

I actually thought of this question when I was discussing the TV show (Lie to Me) with a friend on this site, offsite (sorasgoof), specifically, I mentioned he was like a human lie detector and ergo this question popped up

This does not sound like a reasonable explanation based on the fact that he only had seen some commercials.

Than he goes on to say he already sees town PR. Who can already see TOWN anything at page three? Oh yeah, scum. We do not have him here to explain, so we have to guess as to how he could suggest his knowing. First thing to consider, why was he so interested in actually identifying TOWN PR by the second post of actual game? SCUM are most interested in finding TOWN PR.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Well, that promotes me to L-2. So, before you put me at L-1 have me claim. If I get to L-1, someone might hammer illogically. If that happens, really look at the hammer.

ZeroFang, you seriously think I would bold and enlarge the text that loudly and ridiculously if I were SCUM. I would be hiding in a corner if I were scum. I would have kept him around to frame on Day 2 rather than be so loud about lynching him Day 1. But, I hope between you, Tasky, and Locke someone will actually attempt to make a case against me. I am waiting to see.

How do you make text ultra-visible?

[Narsis]

Well, that promotes me to L-2. So, before you put me at L-1 have me claim. If I get to L-1, someone might hammer illogically. If that happens, really look at the hammer.

lol. so you attack me for not hammering jim before a claim but ask that we wait for you to claim before a hammer? contradiction much?

ZeroFang, you seriously think I would bold and enlarge the text that loudly and ridiculously if I were SCUM. I would be hiding in a corner if I were scum. I would have kept him around to frame on Day 2 rather than be so loud about lynching him Day 1. But, I hope between you, Tasky, and Locke someone will actually attempt to make a case against me. I am waiting to see.

why wouldn't you do it as scum? at best it's a null tell. at worst it's you trying to use it to not look like scum later in the game.

How do you make text ultra-visible?

Speculations I have about 2 nights with no kills.

Scenario 1

First night mafia targets Nacho for claiming day Vig. Espeonage successfully protects. He can only successfully protect the honest. Therefore, Nacho is honest in his town alignment claim.

Second night mafia targets ZeroFang, no apparent reason. Espeonage successfully protects again. Thus confirming his alignment too.

Scenario 2

Night 1 same story as

Scenario 1

Night 2 Mafia want to play with the results of Espeonage, they choose a NO TARGET. ZeroFang is really not confirmed as town, because they tamper with the restriction on Esp.

Scenario 3

Night 1 and 2 are both NO TARGETS. Possible protection against lie detection. Essentially, the idea is, they may have an ability that if they do not kill, they cannot be lie detected. An immunity for sacrificing their Night Kill.

I can see this possibility. But, I think it could be a standing option for every night. Or, maybe an option for a single night. Leading to Scenario 4. If it is a standing option, that would suck for town lie detection. But, give the advantage of NO Night Kills.

Scenario 4

Night 1 same as

Scenario 1

Night 2 using a single immunity protection for the sacrifice of a night kill.

Scenario 5

Town Role blocker. Role blocker successfully prevents Night Kill. This could work for Night 1 and Night 2. This would mean that Nacho would not be 100% cleared by Espeonage.

_______

With 2 MOD kills, we have effectively had 2 NIGHT KILLS, with the loss of information. So, we are just disadvantaged as town. And, with the MOD announcing that would happen during the NIGHT 2 PHASE, the mafia may have decided to NO TARGET just to mess with ESP. They knew they had the advantage with the 2 MOD KILLS.

that is complete and utter worthless speculation and WIFOM material.

Narsis, we knew jimfinn was scum, because there was overwhelming evidence. Using that term refers to the evidence in game that convicted him.

If you did not wait for a claim, I would have been more likely to believe you were town. It seems counter logical, but that is the truth. And, it is the truth because he popped up scum. If he flipped town, and you hammered, than I would think different. But, in this case, I really think his scum flip puts your actions in a scum light. Waiting for a claim, and producing no other reason to vote him, reeks of scum to me.

But, my ISO of you also holds as evidence against you.

so basically...if jim is scum then me waiting to hammer is a bad thing. if jim is town then it's a good thing. and i agree. except i wasnt sure whether he was scum or town at the time.

and before you say i was calling him town and yadda yadda...if you didnt notice there was the whole mod-abandon/other stuff and during that time and while looking at his play i realized that the entire reason i was calling him town was for meta reasons...and i'm against using meta to call people scum or town. i think it was more of a case of me sympathizing with him since i too was coming under attack for similar reasons and i know i am town.

[ZeroFang]

How do you make text ultra-visible?

Everyone will read this.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Narsis

, when I flip town, who is going to be your next suspect? Give us original thoughts from you about who is next. So far, you seem to go after (A) The person attacking you, real WIFOM (B) the most popular pick of the day, and (C) the inevitable lynch of the day.

The point is you had no reason to lynch him, ever, that you actually mentioned. Except that you did not like his claim. Before you join my wagon, which you are preparing to due, by your tone. Lay down a solid case.

And, as far as calling my post useless speculation, why did you pick me versus others that have commented on the subject matter? My speculation is highly valid. You just cannot see it. Maybe, you should actually try to generate original ideas yourself, rather than feeding off others ideas like an ECHO canyon. Explain why it is useless to you, not just saying that it is.

ZeroFang

I see, I made it ultra-visible when I

posted

. I thought you were suggesting that you could make it ultra-visible when

reviewing

to build a case. I thought you were making a suggestion for better reviewing technique.

Where is the rest of your case, that felix is leading you too? You were going to remove your vote unless you posted a case. Why did you lie?

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Oh, Narsis, if it had been another player who waited on the hammer, I may not be as convinced. It is only you, that I have a problem with. The fact that you did the, I will wait post, and then joined once the hammer was not yours to have. Finally, jims comment implicates you for this IMO. I know Locke thinks otherwise, but he is my second suspect. So, his opinion on the matter does not sway me.

Normally, what Esp did would look bad. He retracted for no good reason. But, he does not look scummy for it. Because he did it.

I am not going after Zero for his hammer. But, I have not done a full ISO on him. He is my undetermined player, if you read my list.

So, the most reluctant player to vote was you. Reluctance to kill a scum, in conjunction with no personal reason to vote looks really scummy.

[Tasky]

more SoW votes, please

nacho, stop that stupid voting please.

[Narsis]

Oh, Narsis, if it had been another player who waited on the hammer, I may not be as convinced. It is only you, that I have a problem with. The fact that you did the, I will wait post, and then joined once the hammer was not yours to have. Finally, jims comment implicates you for this IMO. I know Locke thinks otherwise, but he is my second suspect. So, his opinion on the matter does not sway me.

Normally, what Esp did would look bad. He retracted for no good reason. But, he does not look scummy for it. Because he did it.

I am not going after Zero for his hammer. But, I have not done a full ISO on him. He is my undetermined player, if you read my list.

So, the most reluctant player to vote was you. Reluctance to kill a scum, in conjunction with no personal reason to vote looks really scummy.

so basically you think a few people are scum or town...and then everything they do after that point regardless of how scummy or townie is viewed in such a way to fit into your original view of them?

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

I know Narsis will vote me. He is on the verge now. So, that forces me to claim. I cannot afford to have Nacho or Espeonage to vote without a claim. I think Narsis will hammer.

CLAIM

My name

: Agent Ben Reynolds.

My role

: Macho Lie Detector Vig.

Action

: Lie detection kill every Night.

Win Condition

: Threats to town eliminated.

Essentially, I am restricted to only Vig. Killing liars. I have to submit a post by a player. If the player is telling the truth, he lives. If he is lying, he dies.

Night 1 target

: Robbnva

Night 2 target

: Tasky

[Narsis]

ok so those are your targets. tasky must have been telling the truth since he's still alive. so why is your vote on him?

[Tasky]

I know Narsis will vote me. He is on the verge now. So, that forces me to claim. I cannot afford to have Nacho or Espeonage to vote without a claim. I think Narsis will hammer.

CLAIM

My name

: Agent Ben Reynolds.

My role

: Macho Lie Detector Vig.

Action

: Lie detection kill every Night.

Win Condition

: Threats to town eliminated.

Essentially, I am restricted to only Vig. Killing liars. I have to submit a post by a player. If the player is telling the truth, he lives. If he is lying, he dies.

Night 1 target

: Robbnva

Night 2 target

: Tasky

does macho mean you can't be protected?

this is a awfully strong role. sorta only-mafia-killing-vig.
I definitely do not want to lynch you. if you are lying, we will soon find out.
UNVOTE: <------ everybody do this.
why did you choose those targets?

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Evidence in my posts (Shepherd ISO unless stated otherwise):

Post 6, before anyone demands alignment, or proposes the lie detection role is in the game, I demand Tasky (one of my main suspects Day 1) to claim his alignment.

Tasky

, are you aligned with town in this game? Will you have a favorite experience, or an unfavorite experience?

I think we should vote players for

intra

-game reasons, and not

inter

-game reasons. It does not matter what role they played in another game. It only matters what role they play in this game.

Post 9. I was bothered by Tasky's approach. I felt it would limit my ability to target him.

I constantly defend lie detection powers.
Post 14
Post 54
Post 55
Post 57

I explained my CAREER is to DETECT scum.

If you invalidate my claims with plausible evidence or explanation I would be willing to reevaluate my stance. But, currently, my career is to detect scum, and I feel my reasons have merit.

My defense of Robbnva, after he lived night 1.
I did not want to give away my role, so I suggested I would consider the case on Robbnva in post 64.
I denied his case on Robbnva in post 72.
Post 74. I listed Robbnva as possibly town. Placing him in town, but hiding my knowledge.
Post 84. I say

There is no real case to point that Robb is scum. So, I assume here to put him in the more likely town for evaluating the wagon, to narrow down suspects. He actually posted a legitamite case for his vote, unlike Narsis and jimfinn.

Post 111. I go out of my way to mention Robbnva is town. And, I do not even mention Maddie/Mokujin. This was to really stand out of place.

I know I am town. I am convinced that Robbnva (dead without role alignment), Espeonage, and Tasky are town. I am leaning to the belief that Nacho and Antihero are town. I am not sure about ZeroFang. I am leaning that Locke Lamora is SCUM. And, I am convinced that Narsis is scum.

Notice, I all the sudden though tasky in my list of town. He was always suspect to me until Day 3. And, I used CONVINCED town, LEANING town, NOT SURE about alignment, and CONVINCED scum. My strongest Convince included my targets, Robbnva and Tasky. And, Espeonage because he explained the restriction of lie detector perfect to form.

Re-look at Post 84. I offer myself as a martyr. I state it will help town loose, because I am better than a regular cop. I get alignment, and kill ONLY liars, who lie about being town.

Lynch me if you want. It will not help town win. In fact, it will help town loose. It would be a waste of towns effort to lynch me. But, if Narsis or jimfinn flipped town, which I do not think they will, and you feel the need to lynch me, use your best judgement. But, I assure you, I am town. And, my lynch will not profit a town victory.

[Tasky]

ok, thank you.
now please tell me why you have chosen those targets.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

I was questioning your case on Robbnva. So, I wanted to confirm him, but I was not sure if he was scum or town. Especially when he was on TAZARO who flipped TOWN. I knew I was town, so I wanted to check him, because he was on a town player who flipped.

I targeted Tasky because, I was convinced that you were scum. But, you lived. So, I am convinced that you are town.

My results cannot be tampered with like Espeonage. UNLESS, scum has a lie detection block. I thought that the no night kill could be a sacrifice to prevent me and Espeonage. I think that would be incredibly unbalanced towards SCUM if they could do it every night. So, I do not think it is realistic. But, It could be one explanation for both me and Espeonage getting no clear results. Because it seems unlikely that Esp was successful both nights. Less likely for Night 2 especially.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

ok so those are your targets. tasky must have been telling the truth since he's still alive. so why is your vote on him?

I am voting for you. I do not know what you are talking about.

Look at post 625 for VOTE COUNT.
Post 581 is where I placed my vote on you.

Read a little more carefully.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Oh, and I thought Narsis would be easier to lynch than you. I thought and still think he is scum. You on the other hand had too much support as town. So, I thought if you were scum, it would be easier to vig you.

[ZeroFang]

CLAIM

God dammit.

UNVOTE: SoW

[Narsis]

ok so those are your targets. tasky must have been telling the truth since he's still alive. so why is your vote on him?

I am voting for you. I do not know what you are talking about.

Look at post 625 for VOTE COUNT.
Post 581 is where I placed my vote on you.

Read a little more carefully.

sorry you are right. that was nacho.