Mini 1062 - The Lies of Locke Lamora (game over!)

[ThAdmiral]

Also I am pretty sure the action on me came from town due to the flavor involved.

2 town roleblockers? Possible, but unlikely.

[MichelSableheart]

Looking at the palmer wagon, the two votes I'm not liking there are those of a2rude and jenni. a2rude joined without much comments (and didn't contribute much at all), jenni unvoted when palmer claimed, only to show willingness to hammer later. I don't mind the hammer so much, but have my doubts why she needed to unvote in the first place if Palmer was so suspicious.

I'm going to follow Parama and VOTE: jenniwren . I will switch to a2rude if that turns out to be a stronger wagon.

I'm not understanding the Macavity kill much. Looking at his posts, he didn't really seem dangerous to anyone, except perhaps Skyquiem. It's possible that he was killed in a powerrole hunt. Can't put to many conclusions on his kill.

Can everyone please stop assuming what happened to Parama and wait to see if someone wants to claim the action?

[Benmage]

Par you care to elaborate on that one a bit?

See curious scum

And then vote curious scum.

VOTE: a2rudeboy

Word.

vote a2rudeboy

[Coach Travis]

I still don't like jenni's hammer post on palmer, but asking for parama to out himself to explain what happened is ridiculous, and the first thing a2rudeboy has done to give me a scummy read, so I'll

Vote:a2rudeboy

My re-read is still happening, I'm just busy tonight and didn't expect the day to start this fast(less than 48 hours after the cardflip), so it'll likely be done tomorrow.

[Parama]

My role has nothing to do with what happened to me last night.

[Coach Travis]

Okay, time for my updated reads on everyone, based on my big re-read. Since there are probably either 3 or 4 scum in this game, and there's no way all of them had their vote in the same place(that would be way too predictable), I've divided this list into two sections:Those voting palmer, and those not voting him.

Not voting palmer:
Benmage:He looks pretty good to me. He started the day very slow, but once he became more active in the second half he was consistent, thought voting palmer was a waste when compared to a2rudeboy who he felt wasn't contributing nearly enough and was lurker scum. Seeing how a2rudeboy started this day out and how everything's gone down, I don't find Benmage very suspicious right now, seemed like he legitimately wanted the best lynch for the town, and he rejected the idea of a no lynch, which is obviously correct:No lynching benefits scum more than town.

ThAdmiral:Not very active throughout, and he maybe hasn't contributed as much as some players, but overall he doesn't look too scummy to me, he was consistently defending palmer throughout the day, and he asked some questions to either help gain information, or to understand other players actions, which is good, town needs to know stuff, mafia doesn't, except for who has PR's, which he wasn't asking about. His comments on furcolow were also accurate, and as with Benmage, his vote on a2Rudeboy is justifiable. Looks fine to me.

Skyquiem:Never liked him from the start of the game, his reaction to being voted was really bad, as others mentioned at the time, plus the active lurking. Even when he came back after his problems, he focused almost all his attention one player, and that of course was someone who thought he was scum. His whole thing furcolow was tough to read, but going through it I think of either of them is scum it's him, not furcolow. Plus, his one post on palmer after returning was just him fence sitting, which suggests he needed to just play things safe. I said before I felt he could be scum, and I still feel that way.

Parama:I don't like his attitude from early on, very impatient and just wanting anything to happen, though I guess he made up for that once things got going, so that's null. I had concerns over his defending of Skyquiem early, but that too was eventually canceled out. Aside from that, I thought his really big post was interesting, if not overly helpful, he too defended palmer and also in a non-suspicious way, and I feel he's been very active and helpful overall. His vote on jenniwren was also good, I agree that how jenni delivered that hammer vote looked bad. I understand palmer's own concern that he may just be trying to earn town cred, but I don't find him overly scummy right now.

So to sum up this section, I feel out of these four Skyquiem is the scummiest, Parama could be scum but I feel he's more likely town, and I'm pretty sure the other two are town.

Voting palmer:
Furcolow:Really not much to say about him, he was jumping around all over the place, and while he did have a set group of people he was after, it took very little for him to switch from one to the other, which got very irritating. In general, he seems like a very sloppy player, going more on emotion than anything else, and so I'd say he's very unhelpful and very hard to get a read on because he spends so much time flailing around like that. If I had to guess I'd say he's town, because I wouldn't expect scum to be that terrible, but I've seen it before. Either way, I don't like him, but wouldn't suggest lynching him.

a2rudeboy:He looks very bad right now. First off, the ridiculous amount of lurking, with no explanation for it, going after palmer for something totally irrelevant to this game, voting him later on with no reasoning(he answered when asked about it, but I prefer for reasoning to be given at the time of the post, the other way looks more suspicious), and just generally not contributing much at all. Then today starts and he asks for more information about a night event... Yeah, I'm happy to keep my vote on him.

jenniwren:She started out fine, can't argue against her vote on Skyquiem, putting pressure on a scummy player is never a bad idea. However, what bugs me when looking through her in iso is how she flip flopped a bit regarding Palmer:First she votes him, then she says his suspicious looking play had been well accounted for, and that he looked town, then she suddenly says the claim is still bad and makes that overly long hammer post(I like reasoning in votes, but that went on so long and it felt like she was spending the whole time justifying why she was voting a town player). She looks scummy.

MichelSableheart:He's interesting, that's for sure. The thing is, while he played a huge role in getting a townie lynched, there are things in his favor, mostly that he at least stayed consistent in his reasoning the whole time, and the points he made all made sense to me, considering I agreed with it and also felt palmer was scum. His point about furcolow was also good, saying as bad as he is he probably isn't scum. And while right now I'm voting a2rudeboy, a jenni vote is totally justified. I'll always have just a little bit of doubt about him, but right now I think he's town.

Debonair Danny DiPietro:Very similar to MSh, at least in regards to palmer, in that he was very consistent in his attacks on him and used similar reasoning. I feel he's been a helpful player so far, though he has done a couple things I don't understand(calling ThAdmiral suspicious with no real explanation), and his post-hammer post could have been him justifying a mislynch, though probably not, since it was consistent with his thoughts on palmer. Not as sure about him as I am about MSh, but I'd still consider him town right now.

So to sum up the second section:jenni and Rude seem the most likely scum, Furcolow is confusing but leaning town, and MSh and DDD appear town.

Overall, that means I have three strong scum reads, which is likely the amount of scum in the game, and a couple other players I feel could be scum if one of my reads is off. Right now I'm happy to leave my vote where it is, but I'd be happy to lynch jenni or Skyqueim. Anyone else I'd need to see do something very scummy to switch my vote.

[Locke Lamora]

It is said in Camorr that the difference between honest and dishonest commerce is that when an honest man or woman of business ruins someone, they don't have the courtesy to cut their throat to finish the affair.
Interlude: The White Iron Conjurers

Vote Count 8!

a2rudeboy - 3 (Debonair Danny DiPietro, Benmage, Coach Travis)
jenniwren - 2 (Parama, MichelSableheart)

Not voting - 5 (a2rudeboy, Furcolow, jenniwren, Skyquiem, ThAdmiral)

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Deadline is Monday, November 1st.

[Furcolow]

im here
i need to read whats happened since the new day

[Furcolow]

vote: skyquiem

lets do this coach

[a2rudeboy]

The speed on which this wagon has built up is a a little bothersome to say the least.

Re: Parama- Yes, I was intrigued as to why he would say something like that as the very first post of the day. I certainly see no town motivation behind it.

@Travis- I don't really know what you are looking for in terms of "explanations for lurking" but I do recall that I have been on v/la for two separate periods since this game began. As far as your post is concerned, it all seems very...vanilla. Very uncontroversial. You make a lot of points, but cover it up in flimsy language. You state a lot of people who are "probably scum" or "probably town" but don't really push the issue any further. Your reads on just about everyone could be summarised with "oh well, they could be scum, but they could be town" which is...what everyone's read of everyone is on D1.

[Furcolow]

a2rudeboy compile a list of scumreads and townreads, in order, from scummiest to least scummy top to bottom

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Debonair Danny DiPietro:Very similar to MSh, at least in regards to palmer, in that he was very consistent in his attacks on him and used similar reasoning. I feel he's been a helpful player so far, though he has done a couple things I don't understand(

calling ThAdmiral suspicious with no real explanation

), and his post-hammer post could have been him justifying a mislynch, though probably not, since it was consistent with his thoughts on palmer. Not as sure about him as I am about MSh, but I'd still consider him town right now.

Undercontribution (though this wasn't well articulated) plus the fact that he wasn't reading the thread for content (ISO 13+14). Frankly the fact that you call the second point "no real explanation" suggests the same about you (not reading for content).

[MichelSableheart]

@a2rude: I really can't agree with your assesment of Travis post. He gives much stronger opinions then "could be scum, could be town" you mention. His summaries of whom he suspects tell me his opinions exactly. Which is not something I can say of you.

@Coach: 4 mafia is a bit much for a mini. 2 or 3 seems more likely to me. I completely agree with your assesment of the Palmer wagon (putting you slightly behind DDD), but the players off the wagon aren't as clear cut to me. Benmage is more likely town because he actually pushed an alternative to the palmerlynch, but I haven't really got reads on any of the other three.

[Coach Travis]

Undercontribution (though this wasn't well articulated) plus the fact that he wasn't reading the thread for content (ISO 13+14). Frankly the fact that you call the second point "no real explanation" suggests the same about you (not reading for content).

Okay, I missed ISO 14 last night when I did the re-read, probably because you were the last one I did and it was taking forever. So yeah, I can get what you were saying now, that particular post did seem forced and didn't add anything new.

[jenniwren]

Michel, Parama, and CT:

Your "reasons" for voting and/or accusing me are bogus. Michel, if you "have your doubts," you should try asking me (or even reading my other posts where I explained WHY I unvoted Palmer) before just following Parama. CT, I don't know where you are getting that I ever thought Palmer's play was accounted for, unless you're referring to ISO 13, when I said the issues I had with him had been addressed (though that meant by me and other players, not him); after his initial claim, I began doubting my scum read on him, but the more he talked, the less I doubted--did you notice I asked him questions about his claim in that very same post?

Because some people don't read:

I voted for Palmer early in the game because I thought he was the most likely scum and was the best place for a vote. When he claimed a PR, I unvoted him because

I wanted to take the time to discuss his claim and not risk him getting lynched if he was being truthful and not fakeclaiming

. His claim initially made me question my scum read of him, but I was still really suspicious of him, hence why I CONTINUED to question him in my ISOs 13 and 15. His answers never satisfied me, so I voted to lynch him. I wasn't flip-flopping AT ALL...I was weighing his claim against the way he was acting and the things he was saying and I was never able to reconcile any of it. The only person who ever said that I didn't think Palmer was scum was PALMER.

As for the "overly long" hammer post...I wanted Palmer to know why I was voting him. He was saying stuff like I knew he was town and I was scum if I hammered him when I

didn't

know he was town, and hammering him

doesn't

make me scum. He looked like flailing scum to me (especially with the "no lynch is better than townie lynch" in the end), and I wanted to be perfectly clear why he hadn't convinced me otherwise.

In regards to the reason I unvoted and took my time before revoting, in some of my past games, including LOST: S1, Cereal Killers, and Castlevania, we lost PRs because of bad voting practices, fake claims, and opportunistic scum, and town lost all three of those games. I have learned to be more cautious because of events in those games, and I'm not about to leave my vote on a claimed PR until I have had a chance to question that person thoroughly about the claim, but in the end, I reserve the right to revote that person if he or she fails to prove to me that he or she is innocent.

If you want to make a case on me, you need to do better than accuse me of a) being cautious enough to unvote a claimed PR so that we can have a chance to discuss his claim or of b) not believing him after he fails to adequately explain himself. If you want to keep insisting that I'm scum, then you should also explain why you think it's a good idea to risk lynching a claimed PR before his claim is discussed and why voting without giving cause is a pro-TOWN thing to do.

*****

Parama

--

Without

discussing your role at all, and

without

detailing what happened last night, why are you demanding an actual claim from someone you think is town? (i.e., rolefishing)? Be as generic as you need to be in your answer.

--Why do you say you think using meta as defense is crap three times in ISO 17 and then contradict that in ISO 9 and ISO 33? You also say that if there is a wagon on your scumbuddy, you will be on it, and you link to games where you have bussed your buddies. This is a contradiction as it is a meta-defense in response to Furcolow’s accusations.

--Explain this statement:

Palmer adopting Jack's meta just serves as a distraction, though only one that

the town

made it into. Should've just ignored it.

ISO 17 reads like your personal game notes, so yeah...that statement stands out.

--The speed with which you rushed to accuse me for hammering Palmer and to assure everyone that he was obv-town is very questionable...no one other than Palmer himself and scum could have been 100% sure he was town at that point, and he hadn't done much to prove himself at all. What made you so sure Palmer was town at that point? His lack of scumhunting? His inane meta-ploy? His nebulous plan to out out scum by outing everyone's locations? Or was it perhaps his questions about everyone's opinion about the Thiefmaker being a legitimate character in the game/etc.?

Michel

If my unvote is what bothered you, why didn't you say anything about it YESTERDAY? I continued to question Palmer and made it clear my suspicions were still on him even after I unvoted, and you never said anything. In fact, you even acknowledged that I was still suspicious of him two days before the lynch, even though my vote wasn't on him:

I believe the latest vote count and jenniwren's last post show you are mistaken.

Your ISOs 11 and 13 are also full of pro-Palmer lynch statements.

@a2rude, jenni, furcolow, macavity: why aren't you voting anyone so close to deadline? @everyone else: why aren't you voting palmer? He was needlessly information fishing, his claim could easily be a fakeclaim and was full of wrong assumptions, and he's the largest bandwagon at the moment. If you don't think he is a good lynch, why aren't you getting a counterwagon organized?

I question why you waited until D2 to bring up the unvote and make an issue of it, and why you disregarded my ISO 19, where I said "I took my vote off Palmer in order to discuss his claim. I never stated otherwise, so whatever impression you were under, you were wrong. He was close to being lynched, so it was safer to unvote him while discussion ensued. It did, and I still don't believe him. I can't speak for why anyone else may have taken their votes off him." I think you're trying to distance yourself from the mislynch that you were such a strong proponent of by looking for ANY reason you can find to justify blaming someone else for it, which is pretty scummy.

[Parama]

Michel, Parama, and CT:

Your "reasons" for voting and/or accusing me are bogus.

This is not a defense.

Parama

--

Without

discussing your role at all, and

without

detailing what happened last night, why are you demanding an actual claim from someone you think is town? (i.e., rolefishing)? Be as generic as you need to be in your answer.

In case they're NOT town, of course.

--Why do you say you think using meta as defense is crap three times in ISO 17 and then contradict that in ISO 9 and ISO 33? You also say that if there is a wagon on your scumbuddy, you will be on it, and you link to games where you have bussed your buddies. This is a contradiction as it is a meta-defense in response to Furcolow’s accusations.

That's not a meta-defense, you moron. I'm town this game and scum in those games. I can't bus any scumbuddies because I don't have any. And it wouldn't help my case if I WAS scum.

--Explain this statement:

Palmer adopting Jack's meta just serves as a distraction, though only one that

the town

made it into. Should've just ignored it.

ISO 17 reads like your personal game notes, so yeah...that statement stands out.

The town as a whole, IE every player in this game. I was excluding myself in that statement because I wasn't helping palmer distract the town.

--The speed with which you rushed to accuse me for hammering Palmer and to assure everyone that he was obv-town is very questionable...no one other than Palmer himself and scum could have been 100% sure he was town at that point, and he hadn't done much to prove himself at all. What made you so sure Palmer was town at that point? His lack of scumhunting? His inane meta-ploy? His nebulous plan to out out scum by outing everyone's locations? Or was it perhaps his questions about everyone's opinion about the Thiefmaker being a legitimate character in the game/etc.?

I thought he was town after his claim due to the way it was presented. And your hammer on him is still the worst thing ever.

[jenniwren]

1) My opening statement WASN'T the defense. It was an opening statement. Keep READING. I wrote a wall, so if you read it and don't just skip the parts that don't have your name beside them, you might have seen the defense part. In case you won't read it: I hammered someone I thought was scum, and I explained to him why I did it. I didn't flip-flop on him earlier, either...I unvoted so that he wasn't lynched while his claim was still being discussed. Ultimately, I weighed his claim against his behaviors and decided he must be fakeclaiming, so I voted him. If you want me to spell it out even more: I'm town, and I thought I was hammering scum. Obviously I was wrong, just as you are wrong about me.

2) Why would anyone claim just because you told them to? Furthermore...you think it was town, so you're asking a potential town PR to reveal themselves, and THEN you're going to decide if they're town or not?

3) Don't call me a moron; it's completely uncalled for. I don't know your alignment in this game, and your repeated statements that you bus your scumbuddies IF there is a wagon on them were pretty snarky considering Palmer flipped town. As in, they could be read as you being snide about not being on his wagon because he wasn't your buddy. Furc WAS accusing you of being buddies with Palmer, and your insistence that he was wrong, coupled with your statements about meta (both against using it while pointing to your own), struck me as odd, so I questioned it.

4) Fair enough.

5) I thought he was scum after his claim due to the way it was presented. (I've explained why several times.) And so I hammered him. Can you explain the scum-intent of hammering him, i.e., WHY you think hammering him was the "worst thing ever"

other

than the fact that he was town, which I didn't and couldn't have known?

[Furcolow]

vote: jenniwren

I don't like reading walls of text
I've read everything this game but the posts you and Coach Travis have made that are really too long winded
I feel like you are squirming under Parama's pressure even half-skimming this

[jenniwren]

Not reading = anti-town.

And I'm not squirming, at ALL. I'm explaining why he's wrong. There's a difference.

[Furcolow]

when people make a post about the people voting them it looks suspicious
make a post about who you are suspicious of like i have directed a2rudeboy to do

"a2rudeboy compile a list of scumreads and townreads, in order, from scummiest to least scummy top to bottom"
if I like your list, I might consider unvoting

[jenniwren]

If you really think I'm scum, then vote me; but I think all the reasons given for voting me so far are bogus and/or opportunistic. Parama is voting me for hammering; Michel is voting me because I unvoted after Palmer claimed so that we could discuss his claim (and he never convinced me it wasn't a fake claim) and revoting later, and you're voting me for writing a wall of text and "squirming." CT is "suspicious" of me for hammering and "flip-flopping," which is also something I never did. Unvoting for the sake of discussion and considering someone's claim, continuing to question them about their claim, and then voting for them after deciding their claim is bogus is NOT flip-flopping.

As for a list, my questions for Parama and Michel are pretty direct; they're obviously the two people I'm most concerned with right now.

[jenniwren]

EBWODP: By the first sentence, I mean, make a case on why you think I'm scum to support your vote.

[Furcolow]

I have been fairly suspicious of Parama, and Michel with him
I will

unvote

for now, just because I somewhat agree

make me a list anyways

[ThAdmiral]

Debonair Danny DiPietro:Very similar to MSh, at least in regards to palmer, in that he was very consistent in his attacks on him and used similar reasoning. I feel he's been a helpful player so far, though he has done a couple things I don't understand(

calling ThAdmiral suspicious with no real explanation

), and his post-hammer post could have been him justifying a mislynch, though probably not, since it was consistent with his thoughts on palmer. Not as sure about him as I am about MSh, but I'd still consider him town right now.

Undercontribution (though this wasn't well articulated) plus the fact that he wasn't reading the thread for content (ISO 13+14). Frankly the fact that you call the second point "no real explanation" suggests the same about you (not reading for content).

I think it means, as you say, that your point wasn't well articulated - so no one had any idea what you were talking about.
I still don't if I'm being honest.

As far as your post is concerned, it all seems very...vanilla. Very uncontroversial. You make a lot of points, but cover it up in flimsy language. You state a lot of people who are "probably scum" or "probably town" but don't really push the issue any further. Your reads on just about everyone could be summarised with "oh well, they could be scum, but they could be town" which is...what everyone's read of everyone is on D1.

This is a bad/unfair interpretation imo.
He is quite clearly stating who he thinks are town and who he thinks are scum without pretending to be sure of himself.

--Explain this statement:

Palmer adopting Jack's meta just serves as a distraction, though only one that

the town

made it into. Should've just ignored it.

ISO 17 reads like your personal game notes, so yeah...that statement stands out.

The town as a whole, IE every player in this game. I was excluding myself in that statement because I wasn't helping palmer distract the town.

I'm not so sure. That could well be a slip. You've just gone well up in my scum list.

[Parama]

I don't like reading walls of text

Excuse me while I headdesk myself to death.

I have been fairly suspicious of Parama,

and Michel with him

This is a lie.

--Explain this statement:

Palmer adopting Jack's meta just serves as a distraction, though only one that

the town

made it into. Should've just ignored it.

ISO 17 reads like your personal game notes, so yeah...that statement stands out.

The town as a whole, IE every player in this game. I was excluding myself in that statement because I wasn't helping palmer distract the town.

I'm not so sure. That could well be a slip. You've just gone well up in my scum list.

Okay, here's the question you need to ask: "Did Parama participate in the stupid jack-meta discussion palmer started?" The only time I mentioned it was when I was yelling at palmer to stop. Now then, I can't be included in the group that was discussing the dumb meta thing, right? Then it makes sense to not include myself in the group of people wasting our time, right?
Also, townies can't scumslip.