Mini 1057: Unsubsidized Mafia (Game Over!)

[saporovirus]

Hmmmm.

I have to rethink my meta-ing.

I did find one game where Jimfinn was scum, and he was actually extremely talkative. His town meta is very brief- he will post a lot only when he wants to talk about game theory.

I agree that there's no "transition" in DH from day 1 to today.

Far_cry's in an unenviable position though. He started out this day on the defensive and most of what he says is liable to be taken as scummy. It's a confirmation bias thing.

[jimfinn]

I say that singer's flipping scum strengthens my read on FC because at times they appeared to be "directing" each other. Am I still being asked to claim or not? Also, SV, what metaing did you read on me?

[saporovirus]

I tried to read some of your games- whether you were town or scum, and isos.

[jimfinn]

which games, i mean?

[saporovirus]

Mini 1023 and earlier. I gave up after a bit due to wanting to do other things with my life.

Mini 1023 looked like so much fun. I love me some Pratchett .

[Chevre]

Prodding nhammen and redtail896.

[ThAdmiral]

Am I still being asked to claim or not?

You should probably claim since you are at -1.

[DemonHybrid]

I don't care what jimfinn claims, he's pretty obvious town and Far_Cry is getting away with a slap on the wrist and no lynch.

Seriously, ISO F_C and check out his play, Day 1 interactions, etc. and switch this around.

[Thor665]

How is jimfinn obvious town? I'm not seeing it.

[DemonHybrid]

How is jimfinn obvious town? I'm not seeing it.

Assuming Far_Cry is scum (see what I see for a moment), everything that he's posted has little to no scum motivation. He hardly parroted, made a good case against Far Cry, even picked out my flaws and is straight shooting instead of causing deliberate confusion. jimfinn is just a bad lynch, I shouldn't have to tell you guys this again.

[DemonHybrid]

Far_cry's in an unenviable position though. He started out this day on the defensive and most of what he says is liable to be taken as scummy. It's a confirmation bias thing.

Big deal if he started the game out on the defensive. I hate when people pass up legit scumminess because of the situation. This is how the day went.

Day started.
I voted FC. jimfinn voted FC.
FC said "he doesn't like my multiple suspicions" (attempt to pin weak suspicion)
I catch that he's trying to pin suspicion on me for suspecting him.
"Uh......no, I'm not. rly, bro. lul talk about paranoid"
THEN SERIOUSLY, the NEXT post is him FoSing me for my "D1 to D2 transition" when none exists. Undeniable OMGUS; he still hasn't done anything to dispute his weird connection with singer.

"Plus, before, you seemed quite sure that I was town. Reading between when you said I was scum and when you voted for me D2, you didn't really say anything that would make me think that you changed your thoughts. Thus, your vote on me because I had an "odd interaction with singer" does not look good to me. At all."

A read changes after a flip, and you "don't like it" because my town read on you changed to scum.

Okayyyyyyyy.

You didn't defend yourself at all. I hate using OMGUS when it's not justified; I am a vehement disliker of unjustified OMGUS. But this one....

[Far_Cry]

I say that singer's flipping scum strengthens my read on FC because at times they appeared to be "directing" each other.

This is really vague. Elaborate, please.

How is jimfinn obvious town? I'm not seeing it.

Same.

Far_cry's in an unenviable position though. He started out this day on the defensive and most of what he says is liable to be taken as scummy. It's a confirmation bias thing.

Big deal if he started the game out on the defensive. I hate when people pass up legit scumminess because of the situation. This is how the day went.

Day started.
I voted FC. jimfinn voted FC.
FC said "he doesn't like my multiple suspicions" (attempt to pin weak suspicion)
I catch that he's trying to pin suspicion on me for suspecting him.
"Uh......no, I'm not. rly, bro. lul talk about paranoid"
THEN SERIOUSLY, the NEXT post is him FoSing me for my "D1 to D2 transition" when none exists. Undeniable OMGUS; he still hasn't done anything to dispute his weird connection with singer.

DH, you have a flawed view of this game. Very flawed. You seem so intent in defending jimfinn and lynching me. I have yet to see good evidence from you.

Looking at the above post, I have never, ever tried to pin suspicion on you, and I have already stated that before. I was doing something completely normal, and questioning your actions.

I FoS you because I don't have two votes. I had to choose either between you or jimfinn, and I chose jimfinn. I attacked you because D1, you were quite sure that I was town, and did much to defend me when I came under fire from people like Thor, and nhammen. D2, you're suddenly voting for me, and I don't understand why.

Explain to me why jimfinn was actively lurking in the latter part of D1, then suddenly comes back D2 to wagon me. It looks to me like he's just trying to target me, because I'm an easy target. I know sapo earlier stated that jim was lazytown. But I think he's lazyscum. He doesn't feel the need to defend himself, even considering that he is under a lot of attack (and is L-1 now.) And why is that? Because he ride on the fact that people will attack me because of my bad D1 play and "odd interaction with singer" (which, I must add, can't be as strange as Nexus's interactions with singer D1.)

[Far_Cry]

@Town: Right now, I feel we are in a sticky situation. Either scum is on my ass, or is lying low (which could possibly mean nhammen or redtail.) We shouldn't rush anything, because if I'm lynched today, than jimfinn will be lynched D3. And if jimfinn is lynched today, and flips town, than I will be lynched D3. We must carefully weigh our decisions.

@jimnfinn: Yes, I would like you to claim. You are at L-1.

[DemonHybrid]

jim, don't claim.

One sec, replying to your post.

[DemonHybrid]

I say that singer's flipping scum strengthens my read on FC because at times they appeared to be "directing" each other.

This is really vague. Elaborate, please.

How is jimfinn obvious town? I'm not seeing it.

Same.

I'll assume you're replying to the "I'm not seeing it" part and not re-asking me why I find jim obvtown.

Far_cry's in an unenviable position though. He started out this day on the defensive and most of what he says is liable to be taken as scummy. It's a confirmation bias thing.

Big deal if he started the game out on the defensive. I hate when people pass up legit scumminess because of the situation. This is how the day went.

Day started.
I voted FC. jimfinn voted FC.
FC said "he doesn't like my multiple suspicions" (attempt to pin weak suspicion)
I catch that he's trying to pin suspicion on me for suspecting him.
"Uh......no, I'm not. rly, bro. lul talk about paranoid"
THEN SERIOUSLY, the NEXT post is him FoSing me for my "D1 to D2 transition" when none exists. Undeniable OMGUS; he still hasn't done anything to dispute his weird connection with singer.

1.

DH, you have a flawed view of this game. Very flawed. You seem so intent in defending jimfinn and lynching me. I have yet to see good evidence from you.

2.

Looking at the above post, I have never, ever tried to pin suspicion on you, and I have already stated that before. I was doing something completely normal, and questioning your actions.

3.

I FoS you

because I don't have two votes. I had to choose either between you or jimfinn, and I chose jimfinn. I attacked you because D1, you were quite sure that I was town, and did much to defend me when I came under fire from people like Thor, and nhammen. D2, you're suddenly voting for me, and I don't understand why.

4.

Explain to me why jimfinn was actively lurking in the latter part of D1, then suddenly comes back D2 to wagon me. It looks to me like he's just trying to target me, because I'm an easy target. I know sapo earlier stated that jim was lazytown. But I think he's lazyscum. He doesn't feel the need to defend himself, even considering that he is under a lot of attack (and is L-1 now.) And why is that? Because he ride on the fact that people will attack me because of my bad D1 play and "odd interaction with singer" (which, I must add, can't be as strange as Nexus's interactions with singer D1.)

1. My last few points are evidence enough. You're taking the two people who suspect you and turning cases against them. It's ridiculous.

2. Um....yeahhhh, you realize you contradict yourself when you post

3. this. It's quite easy to say "Oh man..no, I wasn't pinning suspicion on you" when saying "I don't like this....why are you doing it" is EXACTLY what pinning suspicion is. It's subtle enough, and it's building a case which has absolutely no merit, especially when you say something like "I don't like your D1 to D2 transition", which is imaginary and something you made up. I've played the same, I have a new suspect.

I guess your reasoning for suspecting me is that "I changed my read", or something like that. It shouldn't matter what my read is on you. You should be voting me due to holes in my logic, scum motivation, connections, etc., not because "I had a town read on you" or "I have a scum read on you that changed overnight" (after a scum flip, no less). You're reduced to flailing arguments and "I shouldn't HAVE to defend myself, because your case is terrible" without justifying it.

4. It's hardly a "wagon". I placed a vote on you before jim did; you can call it a legit wagon if there are more than half of the votes needed for a lynch. He said it himself; he's just continuing his suspicion because singer's flip and your interactions with her make you more suspect. There's NO WAY in hell he's targeting you because you're an easy target; read his friggin ISO.

Him not pushing to defend himself, I've found, after my last game, is NULL, almost a town tell. There are a lot of reasons why people don't do that; frustration, laziness, spite of the town for making a bad decision, etc.

I like how you mention Nexus' interactions with singer. If I could compare your interactions with her with anyone else's interactions with her, it would be Nexus.

In the end: You had a distant but protective relationship with singer. You OMGUS'd me when I started to suspect you. You're creating an imaginary case by saying my "transition" from D1 to D2 is scummy when said transition doesn't exist. You're saying that jim is looking for an easy lynch when all he's BEEN doing is suspecting you. You have no willingness to read, no willingness to care who gets lynched, and you want to save your own skin in this case, because now you have two people against you and the pressure's starting to make you crack.

Make the right decision and lynch Far_Cry, people.

[DemonHybrid]

*My last few posts

Sorry

[nhammen]

Prodded catching up... grad school is not conductive to mafia play, and forgetting about the game really isnt. Will try to post soon. Might be 4 hours but should be within 1.

[DemonHybrid]

Oh, I'd just like to say as well that

in my experience

, voting and FoSing in the same post is a major scumtell.

[Far_Cry]

I'm asking jimfinn to explain why he singer flipping scum makes me look scummy.

1.

DH, you have a flawed view of this game. Very flawed. You seem so intent in defending jimfinn and lynching me. I have yet to see good evidence from you.

2.

Looking at the above post, I have never, ever tried to pin suspicion on you, and I have already stated that before. I was doing something completely normal, and questioning your actions.

3.

I FoS you

because I don't have two votes. I had to choose either between you or jimfinn, and I chose jimfinn. I attacked you because D1, you were quite sure that I was town, and did much to defend me when I came under fire from people like Thor, and nhammen. D2, you're suddenly voting for me, and I don't understand why.

4.

Explain to me why jimfinn was actively lurking in the latter part of D1, then suddenly comes back D2 to wagon me. It looks to me like he's just trying to target me, because I'm an easy target. I know sapo earlier stated that jim was lazytown. But I think he's lazyscum. He doesn't feel the need to defend himself, even considering that he is under a lot of attack (and is L-1 now.) And why is that? Because he ride on the fact that people will attack me because of my bad D1 play and "odd interaction with singer" (which, I must add, can't be as strange as Nexus's interactions with singer D1.)

1. My last few points are evidence enough. You're taking the two people who suspect you and turning cases against them. It's ridiculous.

2. Um....yeahhhh, you realize you contradict yourself when you post

3. this. It's quite easy to say "Oh man..no, I wasn't pinning suspicion on you" when saying "I don't like this....why are you doing it" is EXACTLY what pinning suspicion is. It's subtle enough, and it's building a case which has absolutely no merit, especially when you say something like "I don't like your D1 to D2 transition", which is imaginary and something you made up. I've played the same, I have a new suspect.

I guess your reasoning for suspecting me is that "I changed my read", or something like that. It shouldn't matter what my read is on you. You should be voting me due to holes in my logic, scum motivation, connections, etc., not because "I had a town read on you" or "I have a scum read on you that changed overnight" (after a scum flip, no less). You're reduced to flailing arguments and "I shouldn't HAVE to defend myself, because your case is terrible" without justifying it.

4. It's hardly a "wagon". I placed a vote on you before jim did; you can call it a legit wagon if there are more than half of the votes needed for a lynch. He said it himself; he's just continuing his suspicion because singer's flip and your interactions with her make you more suspect. There's NO WAY in hell he's targeting you because you're an easy target; read his friggin ISO.

Him not pushing to defend himself, I've found, after my last game, is NULL, almost a town tell. There are a lot of reasons why people don't do that; frustration, laziness, spite of the town for making a bad decision, etc.

I like how you mention Nexus' interactions with singer. If I could compare your interactions with her with anyone else's interactions with her, it would be Nexus.

In the end: You had a distant but protective relationship with singer. You OMGUS'd me when I started to suspect you. You're creating an imaginary case by saying my "transition" from D1 to D2 is scummy when said transition doesn't exist. You're saying that jim is looking for an easy lynch when all he's BEEN doing is suspecting you. You have no willingness to read, no willingness to care who gets lynched, and you want to save your own skin in this case, because now you have two people against you and the pressure's starting to make you crack.

Make the right decision and lynch Far_Cry, people.

1. You're not getting me. I'm not OMGUS you guys. I'm not attacking you because you are attacking me. I'm attacking you and jimfinn because I'm not understanding the reasons why you are voting for me. Jimfinn has been vague, and if I'm understanding you right, you're making assumptions on what my actions mean, and turning my actions against me. That's why I'm attacking you guys.

2. I'm not contradicting myself. How many times do I have to say that questioning one's actions is not the same as pinning suspicion on them. Are you trying to tell me it's wrong to attack somebody because you feel their actions are questionable?

3. I really believe my case has better merit than yours. It looks to me like you just don't like my play, and because of that, you are voting for me. I'm not making your D1 to D2 transition up. I'm questioning why you found me town before, and now find me scum.

4. D1, jimfinn had a valid reason to attack me. D2, he's voting for me because of my "interactions with singer." He's already posted a few times, and has not explained himself. It seems to me he doesn't feel the need to defend himself because he can just target me.

BTW, if you're convinced I'm scum, who's my other partner?

[Far_Cry]

EBWOP:

Oh, I'd just like to say as well that

in my experience

, voting and FoSing in the same post is a major scumtell.

How so?

[DemonHybrid]

1. I'm making my case pretty clear, in my opinion. I'm making a case based on the possible motivations behind your actions, it's all you can do in mafia.

2. Questioning isn't, but saying "I don't like this post" is.

3. My case has nothing to do with your playstyle.

4. Um, he's voting for you because of D1 + your interactions with singer. His read has never changed, and I can't see why you used to find that scummy, but now don't.

The EBWOP: I don't want to go neck deep into game theory, but usually scum want to have a backup suspicion in a giant case. It's debatable what the alignments of people getting voted and FoSed is, but in every game I've played, someone has FoS/Voted and turned out to be scum.

[ThAdmiral]

I don't want to go neck deep into game theory, but usually scum want to have a backup suspicion in a giant case. It's debatable what the alignments of people getting voted and FoSed is, but in every game I've played, someone has FoS/Voted and turned out to be scum.

I've fos/voted plenty of times as town. I don't see it as a valid tell.

How is jimfinn obvious town? I'm not seeing it.

Assuming Far_Cry is scum (see what I see for a moment), everything that he's posted has little to no scum motivation.

He hardly parroted, made a good case against Far Cry, even picked out my flaws and is straight shooting instead of causing deliberate confusion.

jimfinn is just a bad lynch, I shouldn't have to tell you guys this again.

This is somewhat true, but only because he has hardly posted.

Also I would argue his case is parroting. These two posts are one after the other right at the start of the day.

Vote: Far_Cry

Singer's had odd interaction with you. You should probably get with the dyin.

VOTE: far_cry my vote was on you at the end of the day, and the flips only strengthen that opinion.

Only after being asked to a number of times did he state his reasoning:

I say that singer's flipping scum strengthens my read on FC because at times they appeared to be "directing" each other.

Which is very similar to saying they had an "odd interaction" as it is the most obvious thing a scum pair would do if they were indeed a scum pair. Note he still hasn't provided any examples of this.

In fact neither have you now that I think of it. Can you please explain why you thought farcry and singer had an "odd interaction" day 1?

[DemonHybrid]

I've fos/voted plenty of times as town. I don't see it as a valid tell.

To each his own, but I have yet to see someone FoS and vote in the same post and not be scum.

This is somewhat true, but only because he has hardly posted.

Also I would argue his case is parroting. These two posts are one after the other right at the start of the day.

Uh, and?

He didn't parrot me, he didn't outwardly state he wanted to wagon. My guess is that if I had not voted FC, he would have anyway. Why do you guys keep calling it "easy targeting" or "blatant parroting"? That's a stupid assumption to make.

Only after being asked to a number of times did he state his reasoning:

Right, cause he waits on you hand and foot. Maybe he just wasn't around when you guys kept asking him.

Which is very similar to saying they had an "odd interaction" as it is the most obvious thing a scum pair would do if they were indeed a scum pair. Note he still hasn't provided any examples of this.

So, are you aggreeing with him, or....?

As far as examples go, I don't feel like bringing up every post. Neck deep in work at the moment, but singer and FC did that whole "I'm going to suspect you, argue with you a bit, but not go too deep into it and never vote you" tango. Only when the singer wagon took off did FC decide to jump on, which was a complete 180 from his earlier views: He went from agreeing with singer to "Well, the singer case seems valid, I guess. *vote*".

Can we please start voting FC? Because you all will feel really silly if jim flips town and then town is going to spiral out of control like Murder in the Desert just did. (Game is over, so I'm comfortable with talking about it)

[nhammen]

A question for you: where exactly did you learn the strategy of claiming Miller on Day 1?

To be perfectly forthright: I have a friend (real life) who plays on this board but is NOT involved in this game. I asked him, generally, if it's a good idea to claim miller early in a game without giving him many details of the game. He said it was not unusual. I didn't want to explain exactly cuz it sounds sort of sketchy to do so; I should maybe not have put much effort into defending my action.

You asked him if it was a good idea? So you already knew of the strategy then. Where did you FIRST learn of this strategy?

@nhamman - but if you want to lynch singersinger for being most scummy why would you try to get an extension so people could lynch Far_Cry?

Three reasons: First, there is nothing wrong with more time to talk. I find this to be a good thing. Second, I am not so arrogant as to believe that my opinion takes precedence over other peoples' opinions. If others wanted to switch, then I have no problem with that. And third, I didn't try to get an extension: I said that if a switch was going to happen, we would need an extension. I was just surprised by the fact that the deadline was so close.

So, after the singer flip, my first thought is that maybe the late switch attempt was driven by scum. So, was Admiral trying to kill the wagon? If so, he was too late to do any good, and a good player would realize this. Not sure. It doesn't read like trying to kill a wagon. One action doesn't mean too much. But I'll note it here, in case it proves to be important later.

Oh, you know what would be cool?

If Far_Cry is town (or scum and there are 3 scum), we lynch Nexus. Cause singer defended him every time she talked about him and blamed his play on "oh, he's new".

I um what? If there are clues that Nexus is scum, why don't we consider lynching him? Why do we have to go through someone else first? I'm really left feeling uneasy about this post. Lining up lynches and such. However, I think this is more bad play than scummy. That may just be me being too sure of my earlier Town-read.

Redtail is most likely town as he made a good case against singer that was instrumental in her lynch.

Scum can make good cases too. Especially when they know that the case is true. Not that I currently think he is scum, but I definitely don't have a Town read on him yet.

That leaves:
Far_Cry - bad day 1 play
jimfinn - lurking
Nexus - disappeared

Given jimfinns seemingly miraculous reappearance at the beginning of day 2 after a week long absence, and his apparent desire to eschew discussion in favour of a quick-lynch, I will...

vote: jimfinn

I'll have to reread jimfinn. Shouldn't take too long. Actually, I just did that. And there isn't enough there to make a read.

Oh, you know what would be cool?

If Far_Cry is town (or scum and there are 3 scum), we lynch Nexus. Cause singer defended him every time she talked about him and blamed his play on "oh, he's new".

That sort of stuck out at me. She mentioned a couple of times that his "pattern" of playing wasn't so great, but he's only had one game or something, so you can't really establish much of a "pattern." Seems sort of a weak way to defend someone, and it doesn't seem like she'd take so much care to defend a townie who might be an easy-ish lynch to sell. She also at some point chides Nexus for not being so great at playing. Pretty interesting.

Thor strikes me as pretty townie because of Singer's vigorous attempts to cast suspicions on him.

Agree with both the points about Nexus and the points about Thor. In fact, I agree enough that I am going to

VOTE: Nexus

I'm still here, I don't even know why I disappeared. I apologise.

I'd also like to say that I didn't ask, or indeed want singer to defend me. It was annoying me that she was, and it is a good plan of hers-when she flipped, get the town to chase after who she was defending.

So yeah, I have had no desire to be associated with singer at all.

I am sooo surprised that you don't want to be linked to known scum. This completely convinces me that you must be Town.[/sarcasm]


---- Now at top of page 14

[DemonHybrid]

I um what? If there are clues that Nexus is scum, why don't we consider lynching him? Why do we have to go through someone else first? I'm really left feeling uneasy about this post. Lining up lynches and such. However, I think this is more bad play than scummy. That may just be me being too sure of my earlier Town-read.

There's a ton of more evidence against FC then there is about Nexus, due to Nexus' lurking. Both are still really scummy, despite FC's flip (given that Nexus doesn't shape up between now and then)