Mini 1042 - Skillville - GAME OVER!

[DemonHybrid]

Oh,

can we have a votecount too?

[Reckamonic]

This has been said before, but everyone here realizes DemonHybrid's read on us is based on the fact that

the village idiot we were defending flipped town

, right?
Also, don't like being compared to heroin abuse.

vollkan continues to be incredibly obvtown.

For the record - it wasn't that DMSIS was being an idiot that made us call him town. It's the fact that he was acting like a complete imbecile

with no real attempt to hide it

that made us believe he is town. Scum-VIs wouldn't go in so "caution to the wind"-esque. Town-VIs, however, don't give a fuck...hence the name

village

idiot.
That being said, we didn't have a strong pro-town read on him. We felt his actions were idiotic, yes, but they

did not make him scum

.

DH's telling vollkan "stop tunnelling" when he's not actually tunnelling is just ridiculous and is a scum defensive maneuver.

Reck said nothing about motivations until after his lynch. He said "He's a VI. So he's town. End of story." Context is ALL about alignment motivations in this case, not whether or not Shotty was a VI (cause...derp, that's evident). Open your eyes.

Bullshit. Most of our defenses were from the standpoint of...he's an idiot, not town. We're so tired of having to say this or have others point it out that you can expect us to NOT RESPOND to any further inquiries on this subject, because it's starting to become a bit like a broken fucking record.

Sidenote: I could see a DH/Socrates scumteam, with DH trying to push a lynch on us while his scumbuddy gets replaced, only to explain it away tomorrow as "Oh, well the replacement wasn't here yet...but since he is now..." and not have to accuse his scumbuddy of passively staying off of a townie's wagon for brownie points. (Sidenote: that is where the distinction lies - Socrates was passively staying off the wagon, whereas we were putting our fucking throats on the line to stop the DMSIS lynch.)

How DH doesn't have a big wagon is completely unbeknownst to us:
- He wanted to lynch claimed masons
- He actively pursued an easy lynch on a VI
- Instead of attacking the wagon-pushers, he attacked the people who

tried to stop the wagon

If someone could point out any pro-town motivation in any of the above, we'd love to hear it.

[DemonHybrid]

Please, continue to not read or care.

Let me abridge my fucking argument so you can understand more clearly.

You said shotty was town without any doubt that he was scum. Not a single ounce. And then you shut up until his modkill. Yeah, real natural.

[DemonHybrid]

You put one post on the line, not your fucking throats. And you also repeatedly ignore the fact that you were missing while the main shotty vs the rest of us argument was going on. Vollkan is tunneling me; he could have argued against Zach and UT for the same posts, but chose me. Probably because I'm the most talkative or actually

gasp

suspected him. And he only talks to others when they address him directly.

Now you can keep wasting your time trying to hang onto a terrible case, or you can accept that you completely ditched the game after your "shotty is town" post. And yes, you 100% implied that shotty was town, because if he's "not scummy", then what the fuck is he?

[DemonHybrid]

EBWOP: "he could have argued against Zach and UT for the same posts"

for the same type of points. Sorry about that.

[Reckamonic]

OOOH HE USED THE F-WORD
MAD SCUM IS MAD

Also, your final sentence there is acting like we have been post-whoring the whole game, then suddenly stopped.
We only have like 2 pages of posts in iso. We've been posting very sporadically as it's hard to find times for both of us to be online.
If that's your abridged case, it's awful.

[Reckamonic]

Now you can keep wasting your time trying to hang onto a terrible case, or you can accept that you completely ditched the game after your "shotty is town" post. And yes, you 100% implied that shotty was town, because if he's "not scummy", then what the fuck is he?

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
1) See above. We haven't been posting much the whole game.
2) "Not scummy" =/= "completely town". Ever heard of something called 'null'? Or 'neutral'? I hear Google has a handy-dandy feature where you can look up the definition of words, if you're confused.

[DemonHybrid]

OOOH HE USED THE F-WORD
MAD SCUM IS MAD

Also, your final sentence there is acting like we have been post-whoring the whole game, then suddenly stopped.
We only have like 2 pages of posts in iso. We've been posting very sporadically as it's hard to find times for both of us to be online.
If that's your abridged case, it's awful.

Keep using that excuse. The shotty argument went on for days, and Reck sure has hell had time to snoop around the rest of the site. Not to dictate your personal habits, but when the game is on the line, I sure as hell will bring it up.

Oh, and another thing. I wanted to pursue Maemuki further after Scott claimed for her because SB and Mae were the two with the most suspicious at the time, simultaneously. It was a weird claim to make, and your tunnel-ey inability to view the town motivation behind that is noted.

Your attempt to use my use of the word "fuck" to pin me as scummy is noted.

Your inability to find the town motivation behind saying that context matters 100% in a game of mafia is noted.

Preview edit: Funny how you cleverly didn't mention "null" in your post, implying that not scummy = town. If you had said "Shotty is null to us", this argument would have been a moot point.

[DemonHybrid]

The early mason claim seems dubious and out of place, but we're not willing to take a risk lynching claimed masons like that. If they're actually masons, then mafia are gonna want to get rid of them quickly. We'll see a flip sooner or later to confirm this. It pains us to let Scott go like that, but alas.

Really really really disliking DH's quick dismissal of the mason claims though.

Disliking the DMSIS bandwagon even more. You guys (see: Scott & Zach) are seriously going to jump on a WELL-KNOWN VILLAGE IDIOT for mixing up how many games he has played with someone? Really, it may be wrong/a mistake, but how does that make him scum? Then, DemonHybrid joins the wagon after it's already rolling full steam ahead. Then... WHAT THE BALLS, ALDY, YOU TOO!?

This wagon is bad bad bad bad bad. We would much rather see DemonHybrid's neck in some rope today. This DMSIS wagon just screams "Deadline lynch, deadline lynch, deadline lynch, deadline lynch!" and the wagon is being pushed on flimsy logic and, pardon our French,

bullshit

cases.

DMSIS is solely being pushed because he's playing like an imbecile. Newsflash, this is how he plays, and nothing he's done is outstandingly scummy. Just idiotic.

Anyone who's unsure or thinking of it as a policy lynch should look at 494, as it shows a clearly scummy action on Shotty's part and that action has a clear scum motivation. This isn't a policy lynch or a lynch to eliminate a VI from the game, this is a lynch on a player who has acted legitimately scummy.

Maybe we just have differing views on things, but that reads COMPLETELY like a stupid, retarded mistake due from lack of giving a fuck or lack of serious play rather than a calculated scum ploy to obscure his meta.

On a non-DMSIS related note, Untrod Tripod's post about us and Socrates strike us as... odd. He brings up the fact that the two (or is it three?) of us have had our votes on DH for a lot of the game... then goes "Eh. Maybe it means nothing. JUST POINTING IT OUT." If you have nothing to say as far as scumtell or towntell or ANYTHING regarding your reads, why just bring it up OUT OF NOWHERE and then not mention it? This is scummy. You're pointing things out, then just hoping someone else will take the bait and run with it. Explain what you find particularly scummy about our vote on DemonHybrid AND Socrates' vote on DemonHybrid. Now.

Here's the post in question.

Funny, I CTRL+F'd and searched for "null" and "neutral", and couldn't find anything.

[DemonHybrid]

In before "DEN HOW CAN U MAEK DA ASSUMPTION DAT WE'R SAYIN DAT HE'S TOWN"

Because the argument that you meant that it's "null" could have been valid if you hadn't posted about it after I brought it up and instead mentioned that very important tidbit in the post in question. If you had cared, you would have included it.

[Reckamonic]

OH HEY
GUESS WHAT.

We are a

fucking hydra account

, so we

don't fucking post

unless we're both around to

fucking agree on shit

.
Goddamn right we had time to post elsewhere. You don't understand how hydras work, do you? Oh hey, we used the word 'fuck', clearly we're calling ourselves scum too!

Dear fucking Christ.

You like noting things, don't you? Congratulations, because all of what you noted is

fucking

terrible.

Also, at your 808...I'm sorry you have trouble reading things without the CTRL+F feature, but if you read the

CONTEXT

and

CONTENT

of the post, you can see what we were saying. Sorry you need things spelled out for you, I didn't realize we were playing Mafia Jr.

[Reckamonic]

Goodnight.
We both have class tomorrow at 8AM, and won't be able to get another post up until Wednesday, probably.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm not understanding why you would bring up me saying "fuck" in the first place then.

I don't care if you are a hydra. Don't join games as a hydra and then bitch when someone notes that both of your heads are off posting elsewhere while this game rots.

Please, continue to not read or care.

We have a preview edit function and you chose to ignore this:

In before "DEN HOW CAN U MAEK DA ASSUMPTION DAT WE'R SAYIN DAT HE'S TOWN"

Because the argument that you meant that it's "null" could have been valid if you hadn't posted about it after I brought it up and instead mentioned that very important tidbit in the post in question. If you had cared, you would have included it.

Preview edit: K.

You sure got me with your argument.

[DemonHybrid]

A lot of you are forgetting this:

Context means a lot when creating an argument. There is context in a good town way and a context in a bad scum way.

You can argue that a certain argument can go either way, but the TIMING backs up and creates the context. This is fucking elementary mafia skills.

[vollkan]

*sigh* It's not a "theory debate" when a number of players consistently explained why Shotty wasn't a good lynch and not a single decent counter-argument was mounted. The debate that we are having is going nowhere;

suffice to say that I think that the failure of people to give any weight to the risk that his actions were prompted by VI-ness and not scumminess, especially in the face of having that directly pointed out to them by the likes of Reck and myself, is scummy

1. You can't say that not ONE decent argument was made for his lynch.
2. Uh.....isn't that what I'm blaming Reck and Soc for? In fact, that's my exact argument. Just flip the alignments and there you go.

1. There was one good argument for him being scummY. There was no argument that justified his being lynched
2. No. The burden of proof is on the accuser and, speaking as one who was opposed to the wagon, it was quite clear that, to the extent that would justify a lynch, the prospects of him being scum weren't worth weighing. In contrast, the arguments against the case were very strong

What town motivation is there to make a hard meta claim that makes another player look bad without backing it up? (Or at least checking that the claim is true?)

I think it's rather unfair to say that possibility should be discarded because. "shotty is an idiot." Or that him being an idiot is more likely than the scum motivation there as it's a play that makes sense from that scum perspective. (And Shotty is a player that typically doesn't make sense.)

There doesn't need to be a town motivation for something to be "not scummy". It just has to be the case that there is no good reason for thinking a scum motivation any more likely than a null explanation (ie. Shotty is an idiot who can't be expected to make sense)

That's crap. How exactly is the nulltell you listed equally likely? How can you argue that an action doesn't make sense when it does from a scum perspective? Your argument here doesn't make any sense to me.

You're completely correct that for a rational player, there is a reasonable argument that he was doing it to deceive (though, I pointed out that I can easily see myself doing the same thing in error). But Shotty was a VI, so it's absolutely ridiculous to think that it was more likely (let alone to the point where it would be a significant factor in favour of his lynch) that he was doing it deliberately rather than out of stupidity.

Also for curiosity sake... Vollkan, where was Shotty in your points system relative to everyone else at the time of his mod kill?

I'd say around 53. I'd allocated him more points than that, but as I indicated a few times, I'd become less and less confident in my scumtells against him as it became more and more obvious that he was a moron.

[Zachrulez]

Also for curiosity sake... Vollkan, where was Shotty in your points system relative to everyone else at the time of his mod kill?

I'd say around 53. I'd allocated him more points than that, but as I indicated a few times, I'd become less and less confident in my scumtells against him as it became more and more obvious that he was a moron.

That seems a bit contrary to the number I actually worked out (Which I think was about 58.) and a bit in-transparent, given that you have made it clear with pretty much everyone else you've scored what you give points to and take away points from.

What particular scum tell points did you nullify?

Also I was interested in what you had everyone at right before his modkill cause I was interested in how your score for him compared to everyone else. (And yes, I want to compare it with the score you ASSIGNED, not the one you are claiming now.)

[Zachrulez]

The early mason claim seems dubious and out of place, but we're not willing to take a risk lynching claimed masons like that. If they're actually masons, then mafia are gonna want to get rid of them quickly. We'll see a flip sooner or later to confirm this. It pains us to let Scott go like that, but alas.

Really really really disliking DH's quick dismissal of the mason claims though.

Disliking the DMSIS bandwagon even more. You guys (see: Scott & Zach) are seriously going to jump on a WELL-KNOWN VILLAGE IDIOT for mixing up how many games he has played with someone? Really, it may be wrong/a mistake, but how does that make him scum? Then, DemonHybrid joins the wagon after it's already rolling full steam ahead. Then... WHAT THE BALLS, ALDY, YOU TOO!?

This wagon is bad bad bad bad bad. We would much rather see DemonHybrid's neck in some rope today. This DMSIS wagon just screams "Deadline lynch, deadline lynch, deadline lynch, deadline lynch!" and the wagon is being pushed on flimsy logic and, pardon our French,

bullshit

cases.

DMSIS is solely being pushed because he's playing like an imbecile. Newsflash, this is how he plays, and nothing he's done is outstandingly scummy. Just idiotic.

Anyone who's unsure or thinking of it as a policy lynch should look at 494, as it shows a clearly scummy action on Shotty's part and that action has a clear scum motivation. This isn't a policy lynch or a lynch to eliminate a VI from the game, this is a lynch on a player who has acted legitimately scummy.

Maybe we just have differing views on things, but that reads COMPLETELY like a stupid, retarded mistake due from lack of giving a fuck or lack of serious play rather than a calculated scum ploy to obscure his meta.

On a non-DMSIS related note, Untrod Tripod's post about us and Socrates strike us as... odd. He brings up the fact that the two (or is it three?) of us have had our votes on DH for a lot of the game... then goes "Eh. Maybe it means nothing. JUST POINTING IT OUT." If you have nothing to say as far as scumtell or towntell or ANYTHING regarding your reads, why just bring it up OUT OF NOWHERE and then not mention it? This is scummy. You're pointing things out, then just hoping someone else will take the bait and run with it. Explain what you find particularly scummy about our vote on DemonHybrid AND Socrates' vote on DemonHybrid. Now.

Here's the post in question.

Funny, I CTRL+F'd and searched for "null" and "neutral", and couldn't find anything.

Nowhere in that post does he call Shotty town. He just calls it a bad wagon.

I think this back and forth between the two of you is likely town vs town. I've had a town read on Reckamonic for a while, and as far as you go, I'm tending to think you're drawing too much attention to yourself to be scum. (I also did an activity based check on your previous games on MS under both alignments.)

Anyway, I'D LIKE TO DRAW EVERYONE'S ATTENTION BACK TO THIS.

Where Untrod makes a horrible accusation about Ald trying to distance himself from the Shotty wagon, even though no such thing was actually happening.

Further fueling my suspicion is that Untrod has had NOTHING to say about this, despite the fact that he's been on site and posting elsewhere. Hoping it gets buried under pages of Reck and DH fighting?

Unvote: Vote: Untrod

[Reckamonic]

We would put good money on the final scums being somewhere within DH, UT, and Socrates.

Masons clear SB & Maemuki.
We have town reads on vollkan, Zach, and to a lesser extent Alduskkel.
PoE means the final two scum have to be within DH/UT/Socrates.

Huzzah.

[Untrod Tripod]

I've had a town read on Reckamonic for a while

Why?

Anyway, I'D LIKE TO DRAW EVERYONE'S ATTENTION BACK TO THIS.

Where Untrod makes a horrible accusation about Ald trying to distance himself from the Shotty wagon, even though no such thing was actually happening.

Why is it horrible? DH had some suspicion on him, and it's pretty easy to flip the wagon back onto the person who was pushing it when someone flips town. Just because Ald said "I guess we should look at me too" doesn't mean he isn't trying to flip suspicion onto DH and me.

Further fueling my suspicion is that Untrod has had NOTHING to say about this, despite the fact that he's been on site and posting elsewhere. Hoping it gets buried under pages of Reck and DH fighting?

No. Not posting doesn't mean I'm hoping it gets buried, it just means I'm not posting in this game. Hoping it would get buried would be retarded.

We would put good money on the final scums being somewhere within DH, UT, and Socrates.

How interesting. Your top suspects are... the guy you've been yelling at all game, the guy who said you were likely scum, and the guy I said was likely scum if you weren't.

Masons clear SB & Maemuki.
We have town reads on vollkan, Zach, and to a lesser extent Alduskkel.
PoE means the final two scum have to be within DH/UT/Socrates.

No it doesn't. Admittedly it would be a ballsy and stupid move for scum to claim masons, but we're just taking their word for it atm.
I can agree on vollkan
yeah, unless the final two scum are between you/DH/Soc/Zach/Al. that's assuming this was a 3 member scum team. could just be a 2 member deal.

[DemonHybrid]

Masons clear SB & Maemuki.

No it doesn't.

Have to agree with UT.

What the hell is it about them claiming masons "clears" them?

Let me use the same logic:

I'm town.

Oh hey! I'm cleared! Because I said that I'm town!

Seriously, it's the SAME LOGIC.

They may VERY WELL be two scum taking the ballsy risk of claiming masons. They may not. Good play suggests that we don't pursue it for right now until more about this game is revealed.

[Untrod Tripod]

Masons clear SB & Maemuki.

No it doesn't.

Have to agree with UT.

What the hell is it about them claiming masons "clears" them?

Let me use the same logic:

I'm town.

Oh hey! I'm cleared! Because I said that I'm town!

Seriously, it's the SAME LOGIC.

They may VERY WELL be two scum taking the ballsy risk of claiming masons. They may not. Good play suggests that we don't pursue it for right now until more about this game is revealed.

Yeah, for the time being we should assume they're not lying. I'd be an ok gambit since we seem to not have any killing roles other than the mafia and claiming masons is pretty safe because if we have a cop role there are more important people to look into. But just to be clear, I'm not saying they're scum, I'm just saying they're not 100% confirmed, as Reck asserted.

[Zachrulez]

I've had a town read on Reckamonic for a while

Why?

The easy answer here would be that:

1. I don't find them scummy. (Simplest answer)
2. I tend to like what they have to say a lot of the time, even if I don't necessarily agree with it. They take stances and are proactive.

Anyway, I'D LIKE TO DRAW EVERYONE'S ATTENTION BACK TO THIS.

Where Untrod makes a horrible accusation about Ald trying to distance himself from the Shotty wagon, even though no such thing was actually happening.

Why is it horrible? DH had some suspicion on him, and it's pretty easy to flip the wagon back onto the person who was pushing it when someone flips town. Just because Ald said "I guess we should look at me too" doesn't mean he isn't trying to flip suspicion onto DH and me.

Because you try to characterize him as saying something he didn't actually say, and your reaction to what he said pangs defensive.

Further fueling my suspicion is that Untrod has had NOTHING to say about this, despite the fact that he's been on site and posting elsewhere. Hoping it gets buried under pages of Reck and DH fighting?

No. Not posting doesn't mean I'm hoping it gets buried, it just means I'm not posting in this game. Hoping it would get buried would be retarded.

Not if it actually works.

We would put good money on the final scums being somewhere within DH, UT, and Socrates.

How interesting. Your top suspects are... the guy you've been yelling at all game, the guy who said you were likely scum, and the guy I said was likely scum if you weren't.

I suspected Horrordude was scum and he happened to say I was likely scum. SO WHAT?

Masons clear SB & Maemuki.
We have town reads on vollkan, Zach, and to a lesser extent Alduskkel.
PoE means the final two scum have to be within DH/UT/Socrates.

No it doesn't. Admittedly it would be a ballsy and stupid move for scum to claim masons, but we're just taking their word for it atm.
I can agree on vollkan
yeah, unless the final two scum are between you/DH/Soc/Zach/Al. that's assuming this was a 3 member scum team. could just be a 2 member deal.

Niiiiiiice jab at the mason claim. Is there any reason you feel the need to dispute it? (If you could find even a handful of games out of thousands where a scum team fake claims masons as a gambit I would be surprised.)

[Reckamonic]

We would put good money on the final scums being somewhere within DH, UT, and Socrates.

How interesting. Your top suspects are... the guy you've been yelling at all game, the guy who said you were likely scum, and the guy I said was likely scum if you weren't.

Masons clear SB & Maemuki.
We have town reads on vollkan, Zach, and to a lesser extent Alduskkel.
PoE means the final two scum have to be within DH/UT/Socrates.

No it doesn't. Admittedly it would be a ballsy and stupid move for scum to claim masons, but we're just taking their word for it atm.
I can agree on vollkan
yeah, unless the final two scum are between you/DH/Soc/Zach/Al. that's assuming this was a 3 member scum team. could just be a 2 member deal.

This post is very bad.

First part: all of that is IIoA, none of that attempts to actually draw any reads or make any connections. It's just a half-assed attempt to paint us in a scummy light.

Second part: obviously our whole post is speaking

from our point of view

, so the last statement you made was just stupid and irrelevant. Also, you should probably explain why the hell there would be a two-man scumteam in a 12-person setup...unless you know there's a serial killer or something.

Yup. If the DH lynch won't happen, UT is a nice second option.

[Skill006]

My apologies, service has been slow.

Ninth Vote Count for Day 2:

DemonHybrid (2) – Socrates, Reckamonic
Reckamonic (1) – DemonHybrid
Socrates (1) – Untrod Tripod
Untrod Tripod (1) – Zachrulez

Not Voting: Nobody Special, vollkan, Alduskkel, Scott Brosius

Deadline is Friday, October 15, 10:00 pm CST.
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch!

[Alduskkel]

How DH doesn't have a big wagon is completely unbeknownst to us:
- He wanted to lynch claimed masons
- He actively pursued an easy lynch on a VI
- Instead of attacking the wagon-pushers, he attacked the people who

tried to stop the wagon

If someone could point out any pro-town motivation in any of the above, we'd love to hear it.

1. Yeah, that's scummy.
2. Shotty

was

scummy, though some (mainly vollkan and you) would disagree.
3. That's DH being wrong, not DH being scummy.

Vollkan is tunneling me;

Disagree. I haven't seen him adding points to you much if at all.

And yes, [Reckamonic] 100% implied that shotty was town, because if he's "not scummy", then what the fuck is he?

Null. Are you even thinking this through?

Funny, I CTRL+F'd and searched for "null" and "neutral", and couldn't find anything.

Newsflash: Declaring null reads doesn't require the usage of the word "null" or "neutral".

Also for curiosity sake... Vollkan, where was Shotty in your points system relative to everyone else at the time of his mod kill?

I'd say around 53. I'd allocated him more points than that, but as I indicated a few times, I'd become less and less confident in my scumtells against him as it became more and more obvious that he was a moron.

I don't like this. vollkan, your system is supposed to be transparent, you can't take off points without telling us. So here's my question: Why didn't you tell us?

Anyway, I'D LIKE TO DRAW EVERYONE'S ATTENTION BACK TO THIS.

Where Untrod makes a horrible accusation about Ald trying to distance himself from the Shotty wagon, even though no such thing was actually happening.

Why is it horrible? DH had some suspicion on him, and it's pretty easy to flip the wagon back onto the person who was pushing it when someone flips town. Just because Ald said "I guess we should look at me too" doesn't mean he isn't trying to flip suspicion onto DH and me.

My

whole point

is that the people on the wagon should be scrutinized just as much as the people off the wagon. I am not trying to shift suspicion onto any particular person just because they were for/against the DMSIS lynch. If you think I was ever saying anything else, then you are mistaken.

We would put good money on the final scums being somewhere within DH, UT, and Socrates.

How interesting. Your top suspects are... the guy you've been yelling at all game, the guy who said you were likely scum, and the guy I said was likely scum if you weren't.

This is just slanderous. Instead of suggesting that Reckamonic is scummy for thinking those people are scum, why don't you examine his reasons better and tear them down, and explain why he is not just wrong but also scummy? Instead you are just lobbing mud at him.

FoS: Untrod Tripod

.

Disputing the Mason claim is dumb dumb dumb. I really don't see the Masons both making it out the next Night, because frankly it's obvious that Masons in an endgame are deadly to Mafia. I guess Mafia could think the town would be idiotic and lynch their own Masons, but I highly doubt it.

This game is really slow because we're missing 3 players: Nobody Special (I know he'll post eventually, for now he is not), Socrates, and Scott Brosius.