Mafia on Holy Orders (Game Over!)

[Iecerint]

Oh, wait, nevermind. She's positing that SHE was roleblocked (and not told about it) as a possibility. I thought she was arguing that I was somehow roleblocked to explain my lack of action, which seemed very silly to me.

So it's no longer 100% that she's lying scum, but I'd say it's still fairly likely, since her being town requires that we posit some unknowns about the set-up.

[Iecerint]

It strikes me as odd that a town player would track one player for being sketchy scum while wanting to lynch someone else (especially when I'd already claimed a PR that was very confirmable...).

[Haylen]

I can try to find one, but its typically on AIM. (Weird since my name isn't Haylie and I've never told anyone it is )

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 0#p2168990 <-- Maemuki, she's calls me it very often.
CSL has been calling me it in ongoing games and on AIM.

I know that Mae and CSL were planning on having a hydra aswell, so you never know if it's them :O That would be awesome. O_O Mae used to frequently mispell 'Battery' as 'Batery' and she love's Vi and her games...I must say that atm I am very inclined to believe that the player who sent that message was Mae.

My thoughts are that I am rather pissed off that I didn't prove anything >=(

EDIT: Just realised what happened with the Vi's PM. Whenever a person's inbox fills, it says in very small writing that they're role PM's are on hold until they sort it out. Sorry, so sorry, I didn't notice this. I did get a result on Iecerint. He targetted Furcolow. Confirm or deny?

[Haylen]

YAY! I didn't waste my one-shot! ^_^

[Iecerint]

1. It is correct that I targeted Furcolow.

I targeted him for 3 reasons. First, I think he's town. Second, he's a player that scum are very unlikely to kill, so what happened with Socrates was unlikely to happen to me again; I minimized the risk of targeting a dead player twice. Third, in spite of his bizarre way of presenting himself in-thread, his reads themselves are of some use when he's town.

2. Your explanation for not having at first received a PM makes sense to me. I would never make something up that quickly after my initial claim as scum.

3. "2" above annoys me, because your decision to target me makes no sense from a town perspective AFAICT.

4. Please address CKD's question, which is the same as the question implicit in "3."

[Haylen]

I targetted Iecerint for the following reasons:

* His posts were giving me very interesting vibes. It feels kinda like my brain is being tickled. I got this exact same feeling with Ojanen.

* I have been on the verge of a null read on Iecerint to a scum read. I wanted to see if he would admit to the person he targetted, gave adequate reasoning for his target and ultimately, whether he targetted the player who died. If we are playing a game where the scum need to decide who does the kill, then the scum would choose a player who is not under much suspicion but under enough for it not to be much of a loss to them if he happens to be caught. It was this that decided where my read on Iec would go, currently it is at 'NOT SCUM', I would however consider the possibility that Vi had included a cult rather than a neighbourhood, but I will have to look into her games again before that because I'm pretty sure she's a mod who hates cults.

* At the time, when he said that he would help the M=W wagon if it came to it, it seemed like distancing as scum only really jump on their buddies wagon if they can't help it. The obviously became void when M=W flipped town. It was basically to test whether he may or may not be bussing (if he targetted the guy who died)

* He then changed his mind and tried to gather a Sociopath wagon out of nowhere.

[Iecerint]

(1. Who the hell is Ojanen?)

2. If you thought scum would choose a player under less suspicion to submit the kill, why did you choose me -- a player under high suspicion?

If I'd have targeted a player who ended up dying twice consecutively, there'd be no way out of that regardless of whether you'd targeted me. Your targeting me is useless if I target town (because the town I targeted can confirm me on their own), or if I target a dead player (because it is indistinguishable from a kill). The only way it's useful AT ALL is if I target scum who decides to play dumb with being targeted, which only works in mylo/lylo and is a bit of a gambit.

Targeting me was not a good use of your ability. It sounds like you didn't think through your target choice very carefully.

3. I pushed M=W as scum most of the game, though, starting D1 and coming back to it later on (cross-supplying the lights I got for it D1) when I got depressed because I didn't know who was scum. (This I could see you missing as a replacement, but ye know.) I only got iffy on him because I didn't think he was scum with you.

4. You are mistaken. I argued that SP was scum WAY before that. Someone (pacman?) argued that I was lurking/not participating in the discussion, and I brought it up again, but it wasn't new information.

[Haylen]

* Ojanen. Good player, fairly new, was nommed for best newbie scummy last year.

* Because I didn't class it as too high. I thought that you were scum with M=W and Furcolow. M=W was under a lot more suspicion than you. The scale I used was entirely subjective. The useful thing is that we now know, if Furcolow confirms it, that you definately targetted him and are most likely a neighbour. I can't see scum pulling a gambit like that especially knowing theirs someone with a one-shot track. That's a 90% confirmed player.

* Fair enough on point 3. I can understand that reading back to day 1.

* Ok. I think it caused alarm bells because it was seemingly out of the blue for me. You were on one wagon then you said 'i know, how bout we lynch this guy' and didn't seem to give a reason why there and then.

[Haylen]

PS. This is the first time I have been a power-role other than Vig, where I got a choice to target. It's no excuse, but I am a bit unsure as to how to play investigative and Gravedigger roles. I hope to learn a lot from this though. ^_^

[curiouskarmadog]

(confused)

Iece, have you claimed something yet and I am missing it?

For those 3 who jumped on the Iece wagon out of the gate..

why did you not want to wait for the tracker claim..

and...given the current claims, thoughts?

Furc, can you confirm Iece's claim?

[curiouskarmadog]

also random question for smokes/lights

is there any benefit in correctly IDing you?

[Iecerint]

@ Haylen --It's true that I haven't really given a reason for SP being scum, other than that he is. I understand that being frustrating, but. Well. Basically, I play with scumSP a lot, and I think this is scumSP. Since my scumreads were kinda mehmehmeh at the time, I thought that beat most other scumtells out there (vez/Haylen scum via Lights, but at risk of killing claimed PR; and M=W, who couldn't be scum with said player).

@ CKD -- Yes, I claimed Neighborizer yesterday...at first, I thought I'd found evidence that Haylen was lying about her ability (namely, she got post-specific info on when she got it, whereas I didn't), but it turned out that I'd been mistaken with regard to which day I got Neighborization on.

You also voted me right after that post IIRC, or you made another push for my lynch or something, so it's a little weird that you "missed" it. I thought reading it was why you thought I was scum (e.g. because you thought I was trying to save M=W and get poor Haylen or whatever).

[pacman281292]

VOTE: Iecerint

Can we do THIS, lynch THIS, and massclaim tomorrow or the next Day? YES. LET'S DO THAT.

So you have nothing to say in the latest developments?
Oh dear...

VOTE: Iecerint

I third the notion of doing this today.

--

Interesting way to crumb while concealing... Might have to 'steal' it one day.

FoS: Chronopie.

You have been asked many times to contribute, but now what you're doing is senselessly sheeping on the lynch.

lol, M=W was lynched??...mother fucker....cant wait to hear what Agar and pac have to say today.

Well, I admit I was wrong. Again.
I didn't go for Iecerint because I didn't feel him enough scummy to warrant my vote. I'll have to rethink my scumlist after this, but while I no longer see Iecerint as town, none of you have convinced me into believing Iecerint is scum.

now I got an issue....I have problems believing haylan's claim at this point ("I got a no result so there must be a RB"), but when the Iece wagon started anew, Iece comes out with the haylen deflection...

Well, I think that holding on to wait the tracker claim isn't so much big. Well, that's my opinion.
If you were adressing something else please point out.

I also heavily pushed Iece yesterday and his wagon got a lot of steam...., yet scum felt that should off Friend, who wasnt on the wagon (mental note: go back and reread his note from the others).....ehhhhhh....not feeling Iece as strong as I once did....Iece does have a point that people should be wanting to see the claimed tracker's result before starting his wagon up.

Oh well.

in so many games, I kick myself at the end when I dont go with my inital gut read on a player (iece)....but I dont believe the claim and need to go back to reread how that claim came about.

SP...plum, your thoughts on the tracker claim?

I've not fully read the Iec/Haylen discussion. I'm trying to catch on something there, but my brain is frozen.

(confused)

Iece, have you claimed something yet and I am missing it?

He claimed being a Neighborizer.

[curiouskarmadog]

Iece, i missed it or forgot it,....either way it wasnt a factor in my read on you yesterday...however, the quickness of your wagon today out of the gate and the choice of mafia kill bothers me (or at least gives me pause on your scum read)....so your current thoughts on Haylen after the claim?

[curiouskarmadog]

also (and I can look it up, but would rather you tell me or at least provide a post number)...why did you claim?

[Iecerint]

Before her edit, I thought she was 95% scum.

After her edit, I am unsure. For one, the edit was very quick after the initial post, so it's not like she had a long time to make something up. Also, the circumstances where a player would know that kind of detail are pretty esoteric, so even if she was just a quick thinker, it would be unusual that she'd go that far to save herself. Moreover, admitting error is itself kind of scummy, especially when you do it only AFTER it's revealed that the error makes you appear as likely scum, so it's unlikely that RENEGE RENEGE would be her urge so quickly after the error being revealed.

On the other hand, I still think her choice to target me was really dumb. The only case it helps is that it makes it slightly less likely that I am scum with Furc (because I did manage to target him with SOMETHING), even if it doesn't make it totally impossible (cuz I could be a scumdoc or whatever). I also think that scum are slightly more likely to make this kind of "dumb" error than town, because scum might stop at "target someone I say I think is scum" whereas town would think a bit more carefully.

Also, the lights have vez/haylenSkum, which may or may not be reliable, but is something to consider.

Edit: As I said in my prior post, I claimed because I thought I could catch her by providing the basis of my question. The whole scenario was that she claimed she got her "get ability if target targetted player" ability as of a certain post, I recognized that I hadn't gotten that kind of information, I asked her to confirm something about that with Vi, she posted several more times without the information, I followed up by pointing out that I'd gotten an ability without that kind of information and went ahead with the rest of it (cuz if it wasn't ALREADY obvious that I was a PR on the basis of my asking her to ask Vi esoteric questions about her ability, the follow-up made it even more obvious). (This is from memory btw.)

[Furcolow]

I'll admit Iecerint did neighborize me, but scum can neighborize. I will not vote him at this point, as I'm sure there are other candidates. Unvote Iecerint, Plum/Sociopath. There is no way in hell I am scum, either, as I was trying to lynch Iecerint before this happened, and was part of the case on Mothrax/Socrates pushed for me as town.

As town, and considering I was not on the M=W wagon, I should get to pick today's lynch.
Anyone against that?

[Iecerint]

...
...
...

... O.o

...

[Haylen]

Yes. I only let confirmed town influence my votes to that extent.

[Iecerint]

Also, why didn't you tell Chrono to unvote me? Why single-out Plum and SP?

[Furcolow]

Chronopie, Pacman, CKD, SocioPath, Haylen
I want you all to pick someone from this list. Consider adding Plum. I am null on her, leaning town. Nearly null, I guess. AGar is semi-cleared by mothrax, Iecerint DID neighborize me, I know my role, and that leaves the rest of the list.
Chronopie I am ok with being lynched
Pacman I have interpretted as a VI, but he could be a scum VI very easily
CKD would surprise me if he flipped town
SocioPath is probably town, but he hasn't contributed enough to fully convince me. He likely is just good at imitating his meta as all slots.
Haylen feels like squirmy scum that has replaced into a slot. I also have no idea how she knew Iecerint neighborized me. I don't see how this fits in with the gravedigging claim, either, so I am going to vote to lynch her.

vote: haylen

ebwop: chronopie, unvote. I didn't know Iecerint.

[Haylen]

How can you consider pacman VI but not Vezok?

I knew Iec neighborized you because I targetted him with my one shot track.
I obtained this track because Vezok correctly guess that Socrates was going to die, using my Grave Digging ability I received a one shot ability of his ability.

Furcolow, answer me this. Doesn't it seem unbalanced that Scum would be given a gravedigger ability? Scum would already know who's going to die. It would seem a tad bit unfair and unbalanced.

[Iecerint]

Don't be silly, Haylen. You're smarter than that.

[Plum]

VOTE: Iecerint

Can we do THIS, lynch THIS, and massclaim tomorrow or the next Day? YES. LET'S DO THAT.

So you have nothing to say in the latest developments?
Oh dear...

Excuse me? The latest developments did nothing to indicate that my best choice for lynch yesterday was any worse. Haylen slipped my mind for a minute, but either way I was the first vote of the new Day and there as no risk in me putting out an initial top-lynch-choice vote. AT ALL. Furthermore you don't seem to have much to say about the latest developments: You admit to being wrong about Me=Weird (no duh, Sherlock), say that you've gone from Townish to neutral on Iec (but not

why

), don't see waiting for the Tracker claim as a big deal anyway (unless you meant something else, because your wording there was too close to incomprehensible for my liking), and manage an 'oh well' comment on CKD's musing. Well, that really was SOMETHING to say on the latest developments. The only thing close to content was accusing Chrono of sheeping on the Iec wagon (and honestly, again, that

had not happened

by the time of the post of mine you quoted). TL;DR, you're a hypocrite and a scummy one at that.

I'll admit Iecerint did neighborize me, but scum can neighborize. I will not vote him at this point, as I'm sure there are other candidates. Unvote Iecerint, Plum/Sociopath. There is no way in hell I am scum, either, as I was trying to lynch Iecerint before this happened, and was part of the case on Mothrax/Socrates pushed for me as town.

As town, and considering I was not on the M=W wagon, I should get to pick today's lynch.
Anyone against that?

First of all, do everything you can with your Neighbor topic to figure out if Iec is likely scum or not. Second of all, even if you were confirmed Town I wouldn't be comfortable literally letting you dictate todays lynch. I wasn't on the M=W wagon either, whoop-de-do.

UNVOTE:

I'm disliking Haylen a lot right now, but really need time to think about it because long school day and such = mush brain right now.

Furcolow, answer me this. Doesn't it seem unbalanced that Scum would be given a gravedigger ability? Scum would already know who's going to die. It would seem a tad bit unfair and unbalanced.

There are plenty of answers to that. First of all you may be lying through your teeth and have gotten a Track-type ability through something unrelated to a Grave-Digger ability (though coming up with it on your own is less than likely). More likely, the scum !!!!!! controls Nightkills and doesn't have communications with the team proper, so guessing a Nightkill would come into effect. That actually seems EXTREMELY plausible. The fact that you make this argument is worrissome, smacks somewhat of scum antsy about a claim not working out properly.

Chronopie, Pacman, CKD, SocioPath, Haylen
I want you all to pick someone from this list. Consider adding Plum. I am null on her, leaning town. Nearly null, I guess. AGar is semi-cleared by mothrax, Iecerint DID neighborize me, I know my role, and that leaves the rest of the list.
Chronopie I am ok with being lynched
Pacman I have interpretted as a VI, but he could be a scum VI very easily
CKD would surprise me if he flipped town
SocioPath is probably town, but he hasn't contributed enough to fully convince me. He likely is just good at imitating his meta as all slots.
Haylen feels like squirmy scum that has replaced into a slot. I also have no idea how she knew Iecerint neighborized me. I don't see how this fits in with the gravedigging claim, either, so I am going to vote to lynch her.

vote: haylen

ebwop: chronopie, unvote. I didn't know Iecerint.

If those are the only choices, PACMAN with a capital PACMAN.

[Chronopie]

UNVOTE: Iecerint Teach me to recheck for past claims in future. I interpreted Haylen's "no result" statement as either Iecerint-scum

Ninja[/i], or a scum-RB targeting Hayl. (FTR: I just got lynched as a ninja in another game, so it's fresh in my mind).

@Furc: Hayl tracked Iecerint to you. Iecerint previously claimed Neighbouriser... 1+1.

--

Chronopie

, Pacman, CKD, SocioPath,

Plum

,

Haylen

I want you all to pick someone from this list. Consider adding Plum. I am null on her, leaning town. Nearly null, I guess. AGar is semi-cleared by mothrax, Iecerint DID neighborize me, I know my role, and that leaves the rest of the list.
Chronopie I am ok with being lynched
Pacman I have interpreted as a VI, but he could be a scum VI very easily
CKD would surprise me if he flipped town
SocioPath is probably town, but he hasn't contributed enough to fully convince me. He likely is just good at imitating his meta as all slots.
Haylen feels like squirmy scum that has replaced into a slot. I also have no idea how she knew Iecerint neighborized me. I don't see how this fits in with the gravedigging claim, either, so I am going to vote to lynch her.

vote: haylen

So I'm just an "ok" lynch, no read either way? Makes a change from my typical scummy meta.
What's more I know my own role, although I'm in no way proven.

Haylen's proven role, if not alignment. However the role is heavily town biased, for the simple reason that Scum would have an upper hand in accurately choosing/predicting deaths to imitate. I'd advise an Unvote.

So my list would be: Pacman, CKD, SocioPath,

and

Plum

.

I agree on pacman.
CKD's play this game doesn't look much like Ninja mafia, but idk if that's due to his being cop in that game, or being scum in this, or just a general apathy due to a VT role. I know I tend to suffer from such.
I don't have a good read on Socio either way :/

Plum.. idk, sometimes town read, sometimes not. That last post is a townie post.