Mini 1044: Lie to Me Mafia - Game Over

[Tasky]

EBWOP: damn. faillink. well, you all know which post is meant.

[ZeroFang]

SoW: this post is really scummy. totally scummy. awfully scummy.

Your hair is really green. Totally green. Awfully green.

Saying it doesn't make it so. If you think it's scummy, explain yourself.

I WANTED TAZARO VIGGED, NOT LYNCHED. THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO THINGS.

Yes, but it's you who doesn't seem to understand this.

If I'd wanted a Tazaro mislynch I would have just voted him.

Nice scumslip.

Lynch me if you want. It will not help town win.

whining already? WHY ARE YOU TALKING TO ME LIKE I AM TOWN? weren't you suspicious of me just a moment ago?
you know you failed with discrediting me, so now you try to buddy up to me. LOL.
NOBODY EVER TALKED ABOUT LYNCHING YOU.

Wrong, wrong, and so very wrong. First of all, he's not whining, he's martyring. There's a difference. Second, we can't go around assuming people are scum all the time. We have to assume they're town to get anything accomplished. Just take everyone's cases with a grain of salt and a pinch of logic and you'll be fine. Thirdly,

you've been talking about lynching him this entire game.

Don't give me any of that "NOBODY EVER TALKED ABOUT LYNCHING YOU" crap when you're the main one on his case, trying as hard as you can to get him lynched.

Scumteam:
Robbnva (85%)
SoW (90%)
ZeroFang (60% if Robbnva flips scum, 50% otherwise)

I'm noticing here that your scumteam consists of a lurker and the two people who suspect you the most. If this is an attempt to save your hide, it's really failing. It's pretty blatant. A noob could see through it.

The people making cases aren't scummy because they made the cases. You're scummy, and the result is people making cases on you. I say that to you, and to everyone here to expose your survivalist mentality. Your main reason for believing SoW is scum is that he thinks you're scum. Not only is that terrible logic, but it's scummy, survivalist, and quite anti-town.

the only reason I prefer lynching Robbnva over SoW right now is that SoW posts a lot. If we let him live today, he HAS to keep up his posting if he doesn't want to give up and will therefore give us much more information than Robbnva

Than why didn't you suggest vigging Robbnva and lynching SoW. If that truly is your philosophy, you're not very consistent with it.

Lynch me if you want. It will not help town win. In fact, it will help town loose. It would be a waste of towns effort to lynch me.

Martyrs are anti-town.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

lol. stop posting bullshit. you know you are misrepresenting me. I know you understood what I said, yet you keep repeating the same things over and over again.

I WANTED TAZARO VIGGED, NOT LYNCHED. THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO THINGS.
additionally the bolded part just doesn't make any sense at all.

so you are saying I wanted a wagon to kill Tazaro with me not on it, so I could have him killed later? WTF?
If I'd wanted a Tazaro mislynch I would have just voted him.

there is no thing as benefit of the doubt. if you don't think I am town, you attack me. period.

oh. right. Assumption SoW is scum. WOW, I caught scum!! /sarcasm off
it's easy to make assumptions for "analysis sake" and then get "correct" reads.

Lynch me if you want. It will not help town win. In fact, it will help town loose. It would be a waste of towns effort to lynch me. But, if Narsis or jimfinn flipped town, which I do not think they will, and you feel the need to lynch me, use your best judgement. But, I assure you, I am town. And, my lynch will not profit a town victory.

whining already? WHY ARE YOU TALKING TO ME LIKE I AM TOWN? weren't you suspicious of me just a moment ago?
you know you failed with discrediting me, so now you try to buddy up to me. LOL.
NOBODY EVER TALKED ABOUT LYNCHING YOU.

_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_

Scumteam:
Robbnva (85%)
SoW (90%)
ZeroFang (60% if Robbnva flips scum, 50% otherwise)

SoW: you scum level officially passed Robbnva's

ARM OF SUSPICION: Shepherd_of_Wolves

the only reason I prefer lynching Robbnva over SoW right now is that SoW posts a lot. If we let him live today, he HAS to keep up his posting if he doesn't want to give up and will therefore give us much more information than Robbnva.

PS: SoW, I want you to do a post by post breakdown on ZeroFang. DO NOT keep vague.

I have no idea what your character is. I am in the dark. I cannot misrepresent you, because I do not know the truth about you. I challenge your character. I point to evidence that makes you look like scum. That is not misrepresentation. It is simply analytical evaluation.

I know there is a difference in you wanting him VIGGED and not LYNCHED. We just interpret that difference differently. You say it makes you LOOK town aligned. I say it makes you LOOK mafia aligned.

I am saying you knew he would be a good lynch, easy to frame, later in the game. Because he was UNREADABLE. So, you resisted being part on his wagon to APPEAR favorable to a TOWN lynch. You knew he was town, if you are scum. That is the basis of the argument. You were not just attempting to not vote him, but all together prevent his lynch from happening. But, at last, at deadline, you jumped on. As ZeroFang pointed out, you slipped by saying you would just join. Because you did just join. You preferred people dead, rather than a no lynch.

For you there may not be a benefit of the doubt. But, you may actually be lying. Because you gave that BENEFIT to Tazaro yesterday. Or, maybe you are not lying. You have NO DOUBTS as to what player alignments are. You KNOW them, because you are scum.

Well, I will let you in on a secret of TOWN. We have all sorts of doubts. We have no idea who is who. So, I allowed myself to DOUBT you were scum based on your response. That is because I did not give myself enough room to DOUBT day 1 and I TUNNELED Taz. By virtue of tunneling, I refused to DOUBT. But, I gave you the grace and BENEFIT to DOUBT my case against you. Remember the odds, 3/11 scum or 8/11 town.

I was not addressing YOU as town. My point was, that YOU can attempt to lynch me. But, TOWN has to have a majority vote to accomplish that. So, I addressed the issue that TOWN should use their best judgement if they consider it. Keep in mind, I am not WHINING. I am answering your question if I was WILLING to DIE. You asked. I answered. I am not responding to a threat, I am responding to question. I am not your buddy. I have never been your buddy. I am inclined to see you as scum. I am DOUBTING myself less and less.

Give me 8 to 12 solid reasons to consider Robbnva as Mafia.
Give me 8 to 12 solid reasons you consider ME, Shepherd, as Mafia.
Do not give me, the you said bad things about me crap. That is not a legitimate reason. There is no reason I should speak GOOD about you. If you are going to put your ARM out there, make it mean something beyond emotional DEFENSIVENESS. In affect you are saying, "KILL Shepherd, he doesn't like me." Bad reason to follow you.

Lynch me if you want. It will not help town win. In fact, it will help town loose. It would be a waste of towns effort to lynch me.

Martyrs are anti-town.

I cannot retract the statement. It is published in the thread now. But, it was a response to Tasky's question if I was willing to die if Narsis and/or jimfinn flipped town. If town feels it is best, I am fine with it. My acceptance to die, in response to his question included this clarification, "But, if Narsis or jimfinn flipped town, which I do not think they will, and

you feel the need to lynch me, use your best judgement.

"

So, if town judges me to be scum, then they should kill me. My real plea is not to let me live. It is, "kill me with the best logical judgement". Tasky has not even proposed any logic. His case on me, or Robbnva is all GUT, EMOTIONAL, TRUST HIM. And, he can only say that I spew BS. I cannot pamper his emotional outbursts. I am waiting for an actual argument he has against me.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Today's date 4 Oct.

NOT ACCEPTABLE

Jimfinn last post Wed 29 Sept.
Mokujin last post Sun 19 Sept.
Nachomama last post Friday 1 Oct.
Robbnva last post Sun 19 Spet.

ACCEPTABLE IF POST COMES TODAY

Espeonage last post Wed 29 Sept. (POSTED LOA)
Narsis last post Sat 2 Oct.

TOTALLY ACCEPTABLE POSTING AT THIS MOMENT

AntiHero
ZeroFang
Tasky
Shepherd of Wolves
Locke Lamora (If he POSTS Friday, as stated in LOA post)

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

We currently have only 4 active players out of 11. That is not even close for a lynch.

[jimfinn]

Are you sure those dates are right? I would've expected a prod on robb and moku if it were that long

[Nachomamma8]

I'm still waiting for Narsis to finish that reread...

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Well, that is nice that you both posted, and made your presence known. But, that is not sufficient. Please answer my questions, and respond to attacks in the game on you and others.

You can Check the dates yourself. It is easy. I am surprised jimfinn that you failed to notice the MOD already told us that he was seeking to replace them. So, that indicates you are not reading carefully. Why are you not reading the game carefully?

[Espeonage]

I am alive. I have read through what happened since I last posted. I'm still a bit behind though. Nacho, I would consider using your kill on SOW or one of the scummy people. I will have more later.

[Antihero]

the lie to me episode tonight = awesome[/sidenote]

Mokujin, we need something from you, because it's already page 20 and we have absolutely NOTHING from you or Maddie.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Espeonage, you must explain your immediate request for a VIG on me. How ridiculous for you to demand a VIG. Why not actually post analysis, vote against me and actually work to persuade town to gain a majority on me? I think it would serve the game much better if you did your part and challenged me, and persuaded town of your cause. It is pathetic that you have chosen the most easy path. You think it best to attempt to persuade one person.

[Espeonage]

You said you would be a burden to town. Anti-town is usually first pick for vig kills before scummy peeps.

[Narsis]

I'm still waiting for Narsis to finish that reread...

instead of actively contributing yourself?

anyway...

AntiHero: Despite my initial thinking of him as scum...rereading his play actually makes me think he is town. Dont like his playstyle, but I'm not really getting any significant scum tells from him.

Espeonage: Not too sure about him. He hasn't really been contributing much, and when he has it's more or less been a "catching up will post later" type of response. When he does post a response(if he does) it's something unsubstantial. Need more from him.

jimfinn: Need more posts from him. Overall however he seems to be playing how I've seen him play before, so I'm inclined to put him in the town category.

CryMeARiver/Locke Lamora: Neither said very much in either day. Although what they have posted has been worthwhile posting(unlike Espeonage). Looking forward for LL's V/LA to finish so we can get more from him.

Maddie/Mokujin_: The most uncontributing players I've ever seen. The sooner they are replaced the better, although I realize it can be difficult to find a replacement sometimes.

Nachomamma8: Good contributions Day 1, and I have a good town-vibe coming from him. Although as Day 2 has continued his contributions have essentially disappeared. Perhaps rather then waiting for me to finish my reread, he could have been responding to the more recent developments.

Robbnva: Great activity and loved his posting Day 1. Unfortunately he has disappeared Day 2.

Shepherd_of_Wolves: Has been doing a lot of posting this game. My #1 town read at the moment.

Tasky: Bit conflicted with him. Love the amount of posting, but...well I can't quite put my finger on it but I'm thinking he's both scum and town. As in another game I played with him, he is a hard read for me.

Zerofang: A mid-way poster. Hasn't contributed a lot to the game, but hasn't been sitting around doing nothing. Overall I'm getting town-vibes from him though.

[ZeroFang]

Does anyone else see Narsis' blatant fence sitting in that last post?

[Antihero]

You said you would be a burden to town. Anti-town is usually first pick for vig kills before scummy peeps.

NO!

So, Narsis, everyone is town/null?

This game desperately needs another flip. Nacho, could you please vig jim now?

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

You said you would be a burden to town. Anti-town is usually first pick for vig kills before scummy peeps.

I never declared myself a burden to town.

Where did you interpret that from?
What is a burden to town?
What is the most important thing for town to do?
How are you accomplishing that most important town goal?
How am I preventing the accomplishment of that goal?
What is the best strategy for town to achieve that goal?
What is detrimental to town accomplishing that goal?

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Tasky: Bit conflicted with him. Love the amount of posting, but...well I can't quite put my finger on it but I'm thinking he's both scum and town. As in another game I played with him, he is a hard read for me.

So, is your hesitation due to the fact that he is your partner in the mafia? You think you need to separate yourself from him, but you do not want to have him killed?
Is he ENOUGH scum for you to vote for him, and pursue an attack on him?

What 5 reasons do you have to say he is town?
What 7 reasons do you have to say he is scum?
Point out details in posts he has made. Direct us to each post your reference. Provide no less than 9 posts to substantiate your position.

[Antihero]

What's with the "no less than 9 posts" requirement?

Just give us something that doesn't look like a fencesit.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

It helps the focus be about analysis, not just I FEEL, I THINK, I SEE. Those are unhelpful. If you state, this specific point is SCUM, that point is TOWN. Then we argue the points. The only evidence we have is the thread. Support claims with evidence means to site the post you determine has specific meaning. So, I set a reachable limit. If they are full of crap, it will be apparent. If they have a real claim, it will better observed with siting the evidence.

[Narsis]

Tasky: Bit conflicted with him. Love the amount of posting, but...well I can't quite put my finger on it but I'm thinking he's both scum and town. As in another game I played with him, he is a hard read for me.

So, is your hesitation due to the fact that he is your partner in the mafia? You think you need to separate yourself from him, but you do not want to have him killed?
Is he ENOUGH scum for you to vote for him, and pursue an attack on him?

What 5 reasons do you have to say he is town?
What 7 reasons do you have to say he is scum?
Point out details in posts he has made. Direct us to each post your reference. Provide no less than 9 posts to substantiate your position.

O.o

in general it's the fact that most things he has done that have been "anti-town" read to me of frustration at being a constant target, not of an actual attempt to hurt the town.


more specifically:

1. ISO #4 to start with. If we assume that a lie detector would look at an entire post, then this post is an obvious cover up. However, he later admits that he thought a lie detector would look at individual statements. So yeah kinda null.

2. His apparent defense of Taz as being town, but wanting him vigg'd, and then finally voting for his lynch. This actually isn't the way that SoW makes it look. ISO #13 he calls for a vig kill on Taz. and before that point i dont see him exactly calling Taz town. ISO #15 is where he makes that 3/4 town comment...except in a game this size 3 scum would make sense. meaning that there's a 3/4 chance that any randomly chosen player is town. so if anything it shows he cant read Taz very well. he then continues to advocate a Taz vigg'ing, as opposed to a lynch. this is imo more of a null thing. i can see the benefits in vigg'ing Taz as opposed to lynching him, but i see(or rather saw) a greater benefit in lynching him and saving the vig kill for later.

3. Little things like his ISO #20. They are comments and such that don't exactly add anything to the game and are a sign of frustration at his being a target. Whether this is a sign of scum or town, I can't say.

4. His case against Robbnva. i disagree with his case, but at least he's making a case against someone. that's better then a lot of people in this game. even so it is a null tell. and i do find his case to be reaching.

5. He's posting a lot. this is related to point 4. in a game the way this one has been going...i'd be more inclined to believe that scum would have been trying to stay out of the limelight and coast along to a victory. yet he's been very out there and in the thick of things. granted most of it has been his responding to cases made against him, and any smart player would attempt to actively defend themselves.

6. ISO #11 and ISO #44. in particular i'm getting at his not going after Nacho today. it looks like a case of scum attempting to be a bit opportunistic. but then he doesn't go after him, and in fact calls Nacho town. it just seems kinda odd to me(mind explaining?)

anyway i need to go...i'll finish this later.

[Nachomamma8]

Daykill: jimfinn

I was just waiting to see who would contribute first.

[Espeonage]

@ SOW. I misread 472. It said "Lynch me if you want. It will not help town win." I read it as "Lynch me if you want. I will not help town win."

sorry.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

@ SOW. I misread 472. It said "Lynch me if you want. It will not help town win." I read it as "Lynch me if you want. I will not help town win."

sorry.

Thanks for the clarification. If I read it like you did at first, I too would have wanted that player killed. So, good thing you double checked.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Well, I am excited to see the jimfinn flip. I think it will pop up scum, and we will be sent on a good course. Thanks Nacho.

Can you explain why you chose him in the end, for this fate. Thanks.

[ZeroFang]

VOTE: Tasky

Since my vote is now on a dead guy. I've explained my thoughts on him thus far sufficiently, yes?