Mini 1042 - Skillville - GAME OVER!

[vollkan]

@vollkan: Answer my other question, please.

Am I the only one who think that shotty's recent posts are a huge appeal to emotion?

They are. But he's a newb and VI to boot, so I don't think you can draw anything from that.

If I thought it was more likely to come from scum, I would be voting for you right now. The main point I make is that it's not impossible to come from scum. (In making a point about where I personally believe that busing votes could be found if they exist.)

I understand that. However, pointing out such possibilities is essentially pointless because

any

vote for scum is a 'not impossible' bussing vote. I guess I liken this to sort of 'testing the waters' - you flag something as 'just a possibility' but by the mere act of doing so you suggest that it has some greater probability than every other background possibility.

I also named Socrates as a player that would fit the bill for a possible bus. What do you think of him?

54

On briefly ISOing his HD vote, I agree with you that he fits the bill. Reason being is that we have no actual attacks on Horror, followed by a declaration that Horror would be one of his preferred lynchees (like a vote/FoS combo), followed by a really passive vote:

DH's indignance strikes me as genuine.

I think I like a Horrordude lynch better at this point.

unvote, vote:Horror

In short, expressed support for the Horror lynch but no actual active role in pushing his lynch.

In light of this,

Socrates+3

I see reasons for suspecting Shotty, but I don't think the mason case is one. But everything about him that I have assigned points to, I also find myself asking "Is it possible that he is really stupid enough to do this even as town?" Take the above thing about his contradictory attitude on me. It doesn't make sense even for most VIs - but he might just be dumb enough to do it....

I would still argue that he should be lynched, because he has committed actions specific to this game that have a clear and obvious scum motivation, as opposed to just doing things that are considered dumb and being considered scummy because he is doing dumb things. (Which tends to be what I see as the difference between obvious VI scum and town VI play.)

Post a damn case!!!http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p2547724
Show me were i'm scum so i can deffend myself

This is my fault for having screwed up my quote tags, but this is the main problem I have with you:

I have put him in both seperately, I haven't really put them together. I guess scum over powers him town case in my head... hmmmmmmmmmmmm

Despite being a VI, this is genuinely scummy. Shotty+3

Reason is simple - town-Shotty's gut reads, crappy as they may be, must be taken to be genuine. The fact that he changed his read so easily on me is utterly inconsistent with that. To the contrary, it suggests that he was buddying to me initially and/or wanted to avoid any questioning from DH.

In a nutshell, even granting that you are a newb-VI, there is no apparent town mental process that would lead you to have such a flip-flopping attitude toward me. There is, as I said in the quote above, a very obvious scum one

[drmyshottyizsik]

Volkan I have a hard time reading you because you say good things but i'm not sure if they are coming from scum or town you know?
And I still want a case to be built against me.

[Untrod Tripod]

shotty, I'm getting very tired of reading your repeated requests of "make a case against me". There is no way I'm not the only one.

but I'm feeling generous, I'll help you out. I think part of the problem is that you must be a very visual learner, because you're having a lot of difficulty READING the thread and COMPREHENDING what has been said. here's what I think your thought process is:

you read

you post


this is of course a problem, because most of the time you end up talking out of your ass and appealing to emotion. Also claiming things that aren't true. Also saying no one has made a case against you when 4 or 5 of us already have. I'm going to make you a visual guide for how to play more effectively

read

think

have a Dr Pepper

begin thinking about making your next post by thinking through the points you want to make

reread the posts of others to see what other people have had to say on the matter

write out your post

reread your post to make sure you say everything you want to

take out all of the things that make you sound like an idiot

POST THAT SHIT




Seriously. You need to start making your points more effectively or you're going to be having this argument every goddamn game.

[Untrod Tripod]

EBWOP: there's no way I'm the only one

[DemonHybrid]

UT, just so you know, after this game, I'm auto-nominating you for a scummy.

[DemonHybrid]

And for some reason....I really want a Dr. Pepper right now.

[DemonHybrid]

In a nutshell, even granting that you are a newb-VI, there is no apparent town mental process that would lead you to have such a flip-flopping attitude toward me. There is, as I said in the quote above, a very obvious scum one

Dude, forget your points system and vote him. You're delaying his lynch and it's looking worse and worse for you.

[drmyshottyizsik]

and not posting a case on me is looking worse and worse for you!

[DemonHybrid]

and not posting a case on me is looking worse and worse for you!

So, you don't even respond to big, colorful pictures?

You have less than the intellect of a child. Children respond to big, colorful pictures.

I am legitimately stunned.

[drmyshottyizsik]

whats to respond to?
he just said rtft

[DemonHybrid]

He's saying that

YOU DON'T READ AND COMPREHEND ANYTHING.

BECAUSE OF THIS, YOU DON'T REALIZE THAT A CASE HAS BEEN PRESENTED FOR THE LAST FEW PAGES AND THERE'S ABSOLUTELY NO NEED TO SUMMARIZE IT. I EVEN DID SUMMARIZE IT IN THE FORM OF THREE PHRASES. THAT POST IS:

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p2545978

#

6

2

8

YOUR RESPONSE TO THESE PHRASES HAVE NOT BEEN SATISFACTORY. SUCH A RESPONSE CAN BE FOUND TWO (that's one more than one) POSTS AFTER #628.

Unsatisfactory defense is unsatisfactory. Therefore, you will die. And so will vollkan, if he keeps trying to justify your VI-ness instead of voting you for being scummy.

If pictures don't work, I wonder if enlarged phrases do.

[drmyshottyizsik]

You can explain why you were so wishy-washy with your view on vollkan, why you couldn't explain your zach vote when you had posted a huge-ass case on him when you replaced him and why you voted me with no reasoning.

what the fuck?!?! this is your case? really!?!?!

[DemonHybrid]

Yep.

The pages speak for themselves.


....oh right, you probably won't understand that statement. I'm going to take my chances though. I'm quite tired of this.

[drmyshottyizsik]

I've understood everything you have said!
and I also understand that none of it has anything about why I'm scummy
also be care you are making this personal and un fun and i will get you replaced

[DemonHybrid]

I give up.

Posting again when one of the following conditions have been met:

1. I need to post for my prod
2. Shotty gets hammered
3. The subject of the conversation is changed onto something else.

[drmyshottyizsik]

@ Mod please replace DH for the following posts against me in which he broke rule 5

You've got eyes, you can read.

So you slept walked through the last 5 pages.

Explains your logic quite well...

You have less than the intellect of a child.

YOU DON'T READ AND COMPREHEND ANYTHING.

The pages speak for themselves.


....oh right, you probably won't understand that statement

[DemonHybrid]

Nice sportsmanship.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p2497469 this is playing the line between modkill and no modkill. I still let it go. Because of no hard feelings.

Grow up.

[drmyshottyizsik]

thanks, i hope you get mod killed, maybe one less scum would be here

[Untrod Tripod]

Ok, shotty. I am going to make one final post about you. From here on out I am going to ignore you unless it becomes absolutely necessary that I don't.

No one here (ok, except maybe for Zach) had it out for you from the beginning. We are irritated by your logic-less, erratic play. We are irritated that you keep making statements that are factually incorrect. We are sick of having to correct you on how mafia works. However, no one has been a dick to you before the last couple of pages. In fact, I'm pretty sure we've been fairly polite to you mostly up to the last page or so. My picture post may have been a bit glib, but I'm not trying to just insult you. I was trying to HELP you. My biggest problem with you in this game is simply the fact that you haven't been and seem unwilling to read the game. I don't think you would be drawn to mafia if you weren't at least a reasonably bright guy, so I don't think the issue is that you aren't smart enough to get this stuff.

main points against you

- yes, you have been acting scummy. You have so far been hiding behind the "VI" label as an excuse for behavior that, frankly, would get anyone else in this game lynched immediately. Even reck was acting more sensible than you are. This pisses me right the fuck off. You need to play the game. This game does not revolve around you. This is something that most of us do in our off-hours for recreation and when we have someone like you yelling and waving their arms, it really makes us not want to bother with it at all. This is a huge problem.

- not DESPITE the "meta" you posted, but BECAUSE of it, I do not want you around in the late game. You mainly make terrible arguments and say "GUYS, TELL ME EXACTLY WHAT I'M SUPPOSED TO BE SAYING. GUYS. GUYS. GUYS. WHY AREN'T YOU TELLING ME THINGS?! I'M TOWN GUYS! I'M TOWN! WHY ARE YOU VOTING FOR ME! I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY YOU ARE VOTING FOR ME! RESTATE WHY YOU'RE VOTING FOR ME!" This is not helpful or convincing.

- you are making the game revolve around you being bad at mafia instead of scumhunting

- you insist that people tell you exactly what their cases are and repost their arguments. Have you. ever. seen. anyone. do. that? This game is about reading, analysis, rhetoric and logic. You need to read through the game, isolate arguments, analyse them, respond to them. No one is going to do your work for you.

- believe it or not "I am town" is a lot more believable than "GUYS, I AM TOWN!!!!!!!!!!!" You are acting like a raving lunatic.

This all being said, this game is over for you. No one here will take you seriously in this game again (and yeah, some of us were trying to before the last 20 or so posts). You can only hope to improve your play in other games. My advice: quit your bitching. Asking the mod to modkill/replace DH is a seriously low move and makes you look terrible. You look like a punk, and you need to accept the lynch or replace out.

_________________________________________________________________________

Ok, that all being said, let's try to make the best of this situation and get some analysis out of it.

To everyone:
Why can we afford to keep shotty around? Why can't we?
why are you/are you not voting for shotty?

to volkan:
at what point does a VI's play go from being stupid to being scummy?

to reck:
what do you think about all this?

[drmyshottyizsik]

Ok, shotty. I am going to make one final post about you. From here on out I am going to ignore you unless it becomes absolutely necessary that I don't.

No one here (ok, except maybe for Zach) had it out for you from the beginning. We are irritated by your logic-less, erratic play. We are irritated that you keep making statements that are factually incorrect. We are sick of having to correct you on how mafia works. However, no one has been a dick to you before the last couple of pages. In fact, I'm pretty sure we've been fairly polite to you mostly up to the last page or so. My picture post may have been a bit glib, but I'm not trying to just insult you. I was trying to HELP you. My biggest problem with you in this game is simply the fact that you haven't been and seem unwilling to read the game. I don't think you would be drawn to mafia if you weren't at least a reasonably bright guy, so I don't think the issue is that you aren't smart enough to get this stuff.

I admit I haven't done as much as I could be here at all.

main points against you

- yes, you have been acting scummy. You have so far been hiding behind the "VI" label as an excuse for behavior that, frankly, would get anyone else in this game lynched immediately. Even reck was acting more sensible than you are. This pisses me right the fuck off. You need to play the game. This game does not revolve around you. This is something that most of us do in our off-hours for recreation and when we have someone like you yelling and waving their arms, it really makes us not want to bother with it at all. This is a huge problem.

I'm sorry I will work on that, but it's still a play style reason.

- not DESPITE the "meta" you posted, but BECAUSE of it, I do not want you around in the late game. You mainly make terrible arguments and say "GUYS, TELL ME EXACTLY WHAT I'M SUPPOSED TO BE SAYING. GUYS. GUYS. GUYS. WHY AREN'T YOU TELLING ME THINGS?! I'M TOWN GUYS! I'M TOWN! WHY ARE YOU VOTING FOR ME! I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY YOU ARE VOTING FOR ME! RESTATE WHY YOU'RE VOTING FOR ME!" This is not helpful or convincing.

Ok I'll focus more on finding other scum, more than clearing my name.

- you are making the game revolve around you being bad at mafia instead of scumhunting

sorry.

- you insist that people tell you exactly what their cases are and repost their arguments. Have you. ever. seen. anyone. do. that? This game is about reading, analysis, rhetoric and logic. You need to read through the game, isolate arguments, analyse them, respond to them. No one is going to do your work for you.

ok, and yes many times I have seen people post full blown cases.

- believe it or not "I am town" is a lot more believable than "GUYS, I AM TOWN!!!!!!!!!!!" You are acting like a raving lunatic.

Well I go to raves a lot, but the second part of that is debatable.

This all being said, this game is over for you. No one here will take you seriously in this game again (and yeah, some of us were trying to before the last 20 or so posts). You can only hope to improve your play in other games. My advice: quit your bitching. Asking the mod to modkill/replace DH is a seriously low move and makes you look terrible. You look like a punk, and you need to accept the lynch or replace out.

ok so now this is a policy lynch? Are you saying that if I were replaced my spot would become less scummy?

_________________________________________________________________________

Ok, that all being said, let's try to make the best of this situation and get some analysis out of it.

To everyone:
Why can we afford to keep shotty around? Why can't we?

Because he promises to make this his number one game now that open 236 has ended

why are you/are you not voting for shotty?

to volkan:
at what point does a VI's play go from being stupid to being scummy?

to reck:
what do you think about all this?

[Reckamonic]

Zach

, your post 550 suggests that Untrod Tripod is at least slightly scummy to you, yet you also insinuate you have a null read on him. Clarify?

DemonHybrid

... you're suddenly calling Zach the most town person. Early in the game, you found Zach to be one of the scummiest, then here you unvote him and vote us. You say here that you're still iffy on his demeanor. You then say that zach is kinda clear because horrordude tried to lynch him...and yet, you completely disregard the fact that Godfather is a powerful scum role. Why wouldn't the Godfather bus his scumbuddy if it means saving his own ass? PS, in that same post, you call Alduskkel the "most townish" of the bunch. So, aside from the flawed logic that a Godfather wouldn't bus their own scumbuddy (lol), why is Zach so obvtown? If we recall correctly, you were all on our asses earlier in the game for calling Zach obvtown, and now you're doing the same thing yourself. There's a dissonance there that only further strengthens our scumread on you.

Also, I don't get why you have a problem with volkan - you're implying that his scumpoints system is somehow scummy in and of itself, which is not only unprovable, but is false. A system of scumhunting can't make one scummy if it's what they use all the time. Zach hit the nail on the head when he said the points system is a null tell. Not to mention, you trying to bully volkan onto the DMSIS wagon is downright awful. HELLO SCUM! BEAUTIFUL DAY, ISN'T IT?

Untrod Tripod

's wagon hop onto DMSIS is absolutely terrible. It's like he was pussyfooting around the wagon and looking for a perfectly town-shaped opportunity to leap onto the wagon, but it never came, so he just came up with some half-assed reasoning and climbed aboard the SHOTTYTRAIN. His case (which lol came five pages later) is also bad. The first point is false - he's not HIDING behind the VI label, he's just plain dumb. Second point has validity - but it's policy. That does not a scumbag make. Your entire case basically sounds like "I don't necessarily believe you're scummy, you're just a bad player and I don't want you in endgame". That's not scummy. IT'S. NOT. SCUMMY. This is the first semblance of a "case" that's been posted on DMSIS, and it's just plain bad.

This DMSIS wagon is still horrible. He's town. He's not even TRYING to make sense, he's just being

stupid

. That is not a scumtell. AT ALL. Our firm belief he is town makes DemonHybrid

even scummier

and if we had to guess right now, we'd say Untrod Tripod would be his scum buddy. Yes, DMSIS's play hinders town, but we need to be lynching SCUM, not BAD TOWNIES. Best way to deal with DMSIS is to hope for a vig and let him eat bullets overnight. Today, we need to lynch DemonHybrid.

Vote: DemonHybrid

Only 24 hours to deadline. I urge you all to join us in lynching scum.

For anyone who wants to know:

TOWN

Maemuki (still needs replacing, btw)
Scott Brosius
Zachrulez
volkan
drmyshottyizsik
Alduskkel
Socrates
Untrod Tripod
DemonHybrid

SCUM

@MOD: Replace Maemuki, please. Also, please don't steal my spring?

^ The nerdy Touhou reference was clearly dram and not Reck, by the way, because one of us is a huge dork and the other is totally cool and not dorky at all =P

[DemonHybrid]

Is there something in your wincon or role that says you should have me killed or something?

You have a good case.

And by "have a good case", I really mean "have fucking forgotten that reads can change".

Yep, I thought Zach was scum. Yep, I feel Zach is most town now. His play has gotten 200% better, horrordude went crazy on him without expressing ANY other suspicions. I don't think HD is good enough scum to bus a friend that hard.

vollkan also doesn't have a problem voting for horrordude...after a long winded case against him, adding points after points and careful analysis when people had already started wagoning him. And now he's stalling on his DMSIS vote.

DMSIS isn't just playing stupid this game. He has SCUM MOTIVATION. That's what UT, Zach and I are trying to convince everyone. Even vollkan recognizes it...why he's not hammering DMSIS is beyond me though.

Are you really going to think so narrowly to accept vollkan as obvtown and a stupid lynch just because he posts careful analysis? How long have you guys been playing, anyway? I've been playing since May and I already know that that's a dumb decision.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm also wondering. Why did you mention my view of Alduskkel when it has absolutely no correlation to your case?

[Untrod Tripod]

Are you really going to think so narrowly to accept vollkan as obvtown and a stupid lynch just because he posts careful analysis? How long have you guys been playing, anyway? I've been playing since May and I already know that that's a dumb decision.

IMO, volkan would be a fairly easy lynch as a scum player simply because of the volume and breadth of his analysis. If he's still around at the endgame, his positions on dead players throughout the game should make his alignment fairly obvious. I'm inclined to keep him around for that reason alone.

why are you concerned about his alignment?

[DemonHybrid]

Are you really going to think so narrowly to accept vollkan as obvtown and a stupid lynch just because he posts careful analysis? How long have you guys been playing, anyway? I've been playing since May and I already know that that's a dumb decision.

IMO, volkan would be a fairly easy lynch as a scum player simply because of the volume and breadth of his analysis. If he's still around at the endgame, his positions on dead players throughout the game should make his alignment fairly obvious. I'm inclined to keep him around for that reason alone.

why are you concerned about his alignment?

For the same reason I'm concerned about everyone else's. No player should be given a free pass, but you do bring up a good point. The argument of "okay, this person is obvscum; should we keep him alive, however?" has come up a lot for me, and there's no clear answer, according to X amount of people I've had this conversation with. Should we keep vollkan alive until endgame? Depends, but I agree with you that he'd be an easy lynch. It hasn't been hard connecting his play to scum motivation when it's come to both wagons.

However, I know what is bad. 100% confirming obvtown until the end of the game. I've lost quite a few games doing that.