Open 248: Two of Four - Game Over

[charter]

The main reason I'm hung up on Charter is that he's so dead set on getting me lynched. After not mentioning any suspicion of me at all on the first day, he suddenly is absolutely sure that I'm scum because I voted for him. Bonus points for that fact that he refuses to take his vote off of me after everyone else removed their votes.
In addition, he specifically phrased his rereading me as "going to prove BlakAdder is scum." (Post 172) If I'm so positively scum, couldn't you had given some proof besides OMGUS when you voted for me originally. Quick counter-question to Charter while I'm on the subject. What do you think makes your vote any less suspicious than mine?
In addition, in his reread of me, the only evidence he could muster against me was some drifting and turning my vote on Opa into a scum tactic. I can't see any valuable information that would have been gained yesterday with Opa drawing attention to himself so frantically anyway, there was no harm in my vote even if it eventually turned out to be the hammer anyway.

When someone votes you in LYLO and you are town, they are either scum or the game is lost. The game didn't end. That leaves two options, either I am scum, or you are scum. That leaves one option, you are scum. What do you mean, " If I'm so positively scum, couldn't you had given some proof besides OMGUS when you voted for me originally"? I did give a reason, quickvoting in LYLO, and I didn't make a case because I didn't have time. When I did, I made a case, and you ignore it until this, which I'd say is still ignoring it. Why is my vote any less suspicious? I didn't vote right out the gate in LYLO with zero reason.

Thor, I made a case here, http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p2529320

To be honest, I believe his vote today was to try and bait someone in to following him and voting me so his buddy could quickhammer. I know that seems kind of far-fetched, but look at the rest of Blak's play...

[edmund.angles]

Okay people, a little more activity please.
Suggestions:
@CommieX: Tell us what you need in order to make your decision- or make it if you've heard enough.
@Blak: Make a case on Charter.
@Thor: Tell us who you would prefer to lynch of BlakAdder and Charter and why.

[CommieX]

Meh, I've heard enough right now. TBQH, I'm still leaning towards a Charter/BA scumteam, because of the situation I posted in my last post. Because:

1. It explains why I'm not dead (scum would need a clear, but couldn't risk a cop getting a guilty)

2. It explains BA's behavior at the beginning of the day. His first posts were extremely scummy, reminding everyone that we're in LYLO then immediately voting. Almost too scummy, tbqh. It seemed to me like he was trying to look bad, particularly this post:

Just trying to get things started. If anyone puts another vote on Charter I'll take mine away.

Trying to get things started? I don't see how voting Charter could have lead to anything but us focusing on BA. Town wouldn't do this, as voting someone for an arbitrary reason in LYLO is just silly. Scum wouldn't do this, as scum wouldn't be so blatant. This is almost fool-esque play, but it makes a bit more sense if he needs to give Charter an excuse to vote him.

All this plus the fact that BA and Charter were the two scummiest out of everyone alive D1 makes me think we've found our scumteam. We still have to lynch the scummiest out of the two however, and that's Adder.

Vote: BlakAdder

This could very well be my last post of the game, so I'll say GL town if I'm right, GG scum if I'm wrong.

Also, preemptive Bah.

[Fenchurch]

Third Vote Count of Day Two:

BlakAdder - 2 (charter, CommieX)

Not Voting: 3 (edmund.angles, Thor665, BlakAdder)

With five alive, it will take three votes to lynch someone.

The current deadline is: Thursday 21st October, at 23:00 GMT.

[Thor665]

Hey, COmmie, if you're around how about you unvote and we still talk more, my presence here and lack of vote helps clarify things even more.

[Thor665]

I'll admit edmund's little list 'o questions twings my towndar - I'm just still so 'meh' on his "Oh guide us ye mighty confirmed townie" thing I'm still a little unsure of him.

@Thor: Tell us who you would prefer to lynch of BlakAdder and Charter and why.

Hard to call. I consider your listing of the reasons either of them are scum to be pretty functionally inclusive, but I think your reasons to clear charter are pretty weak on the whole.
I'd sum up my list more simplistically.

charter is more suspicious because he clearly picked up the smashbro PR hints.
BA is more suspicious because of his awkward hammer attempts yesterday.

I'd probably lean BA as the preference slightly as I think the 'tell' on charter is weaker.
I'm antsy on this one because your lists seem preconceived to paint BA as scummier then charter and I'm not sure how I feel about you yet.

[BlakAdder]

I quite honestly don't know what else to say. I've already made my case on Charter and there's nothing else he's said against me that I can actually defend against.
If there was a little more tangible evidence against me, I'd love to say more in my defense.
As it stands, I don't have a lot more to say right now. I started liking Thor's case on edmund a bit more during the quiet period but I don't feel strongly enough to put down a vote.

[CommieX]

Hey, COmmie, if you're around how about you unvote and we still talk more, my presence here and lack of vote helps clarify things even more.

As it stands, possible scumteams are:

BA/Charter
BA/Ed
BA/Thor
Charter/Ed

Correct?

So there's a 3/4 chance BA is scum.

I don't have much else to say at this point. Especially since BA doesn't seem to have much of a defense and you're not exactly making any strong case for me to not lynch BA. So unless you'd like to stretch this thing out till the deadline, I'll keep my vote.

[edmund.angles]

vote BlakAdder

[edmund.angles]

@CommieX: You did the right thing for the mission captain....

**pads CommieX on the back- and then pushes him into the air lock .

Many years from now...
Scoolmistress: Ok children, please open your textbooks on page 1 to learn about the exploits of Edmund and *Beep*
Everyone in a choir: "Magnificent leaders, heroes of the Dominion, our Twin suns"

[Thor665]

Sonnuva!

Guess I'll be hopping out of the airlock next. Though maybe now I'll learn if charter was serious about thinking massclaim Day 1 was a terrible idea.

[Thor665]

I will admit maybe the massclaim should have just been "I'm a PR" for optimal town play now that I consider it more, but I still think Day 1 was the time to do it.

[Fenchurch]

Final Vote Count of Day Two:

BlakAdder - 2 (charter, CommieX, edmund.angles)

Not Voting: 2 (Thor665, BlakAdder)

You hustleBlakAdder into the airlock and wave goodbye. This time, all that appears on the computer screen is a list of warning messages - the ship has been leaking since the damage and atmospheric conditions have now reached critical level. Urgent repairs are needed.

charter and edmund set to work on some welding, whilst Thor665 goes on a spacewalk to fix the power supply, supervised by CommieX on the inside. It's not long before Thor's lines are cut leaving him drifting helplessly away from the spaceship, whilst CommieX is welded to death…

charter and edmund.angles finish the repairs, and woosh off into the stars.

BlakAdder,

Townie

, is lynched Day 2.

CommieX,

Miller

, and Thor665,

Townie

, are endgamed.

charter and edmund.angles,

Mafia Goons

, win the game!

[Fenchurch]

Thanks all for being excellent players in my first modded game. I'd appreciate any feedback or suggestions you may have. I was really pleased with the level of play, and activity in the game. One thing I regreted as soon as we'd started were the deadlines, I realised 2 weeks/10 days bankable would have been more appropriate for a 7-player game, but it didn't seem right to reduce it having already begun, and so I was really glad when you didn't fall into the trap of dragging it out needlessly.

Night 1 actions:

smashbro investigates BlakAdder. (Result = not mafia)
charter kills smashbro.

charter and edmund, please let me know if you're okay to post the scumtopic.

I didn't set up a dead topic since the game was short, but smashbro messaged me and I offered to tell him if was right on his picks, he went for Thor and edmund (this was at the start of Day 2). Oh, I liked his comment in this message to me:

Awesome. I got the role unlimited investigation dead cop. I may not post at all in thread and am confirmed sane.

I'll have a think back and post if I have any more thoughts on the game.

[edmund.angles]

@Fenchurch:

Thanks for great hosting and setup. The setup was simple but with so many great possibilities. I'm sorry if I stepped into your domain when I added flavour. I'm ok with linking to the quicktopic.

@ everyone: Thanks for playing, replacement and lurker free, that is a first for me.
- also my first scum game.

my honest opinion about things: I actually never thought mass-claim was a good idea for town but I made a scum-slip because I got greedy.
@Thor: I'm a bit confused about what you hoped to achieve by massclaim. Why should we go back on the opa lynch (claimed VT) just because we had 2 confirmed townies. And we(scum) could just kill the PR without any chance of missing.

about the outcome: Town was pretty unlucky with 2 pretty scummy players.

[CommieX]

And commie remains winless on MS...

Thanks to Fenchurch for an entertaining game, with some fun flavor to boot. And thanks to all of you for great activity levels, helped keep it entertaining.

I guess I don't really understand BA's logic in voting in his first post D2. I still think that was pretty scummy TBQH. But I do have to give full credit to Ed, he really had me fooled D2.

Anyway, congrats to both Ed and Charter. Now if you'll excuse me, I must go cry in a corner due to my losing streak

[Jora]

Fenchurch - good modding, special thanx for fixing myscrewed tags.

charter, edmund.angles - quality play, congrats!

I thought that BlakAdder was scum till the end.

Thor665 - overall good pro-town play, exept vote on me (:roll:) and "lets

vote

for claim" (however "hey, PR, do claim!"-thing good).

smashbro_of_the_SSS - good choice for NA, unluckily your role was clear for scums (Thor and Blak almost directly admitted that they haven't PR).

CommieX - I'm sorry for my anger.

Resume:
Townies,
If you want to start winning you should stop mindlessly attack most active player at D1 with only reasons "everyone else told so" and "we'll have a lot more info if lynch most active one" (well, got your precious info, do you?) or at least not lynch him, or at least not so quick. That is classic newbtown mistake.

If someone (may be BlakAdder) do a try to stick on charter's wagon in the beginning, it'll be different game ending.

Bah:

You going to lose if you lynch me!!!

- just as I told.

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

Bah, and I even made a decent night choice this time. Yeah first time as cop, didn't really get to use it. Good game though, I liked the flavor Fen, good job.

As for scum, I was oretty sure edmund was scum, but really didn't have anything to prove it, and I was never going to go guess charter. Good playing guys.

In retrospect, what I should have done was just agree to massclaim, and then claim townie, unless scum made a claim.

Anyway, it was fun, and if I think of anything else to say, I will post it.

[BlakAdder]

Bah. Oh well, that one was my fault. I should have thought through my actions better before making them. My apologies to the rest of the town.
But at least I knew I was right about Charter. So ha!
Anyway, good game yall.

[Thor665]

@Thor: I'm a bit confused about what you hoped to achieve by massclaim. Why should we go back on the opa lynch (claimed VT) just because we had 2 confirmed townies. And we(scum) could just kill the PR without any chance of missing.

Well, actually I was coming around to }|{opa being town by the end of Day 1 and wasn't so strong in wanting him lynched.
Massclaim was to help focus town. 2 confirmed townies would have dramatically increased town's chances of lynching scum and the confirmed townies could not have been so functional Day 2 due to scums ability to counterclaim at that stage - hence Day 1 was when we had to do it.

Thor665 - overall good pro-town play, exept vote on me (:roll:) and "lets

vote

for claim" (however "hey, PR, do claim!"-thing good).

I agree that the vote for a PR thing was rough...only took me a few RL days to figure out the better option.
I also puzzled out your townishness, but with 2 scum on you they only needed to convince 2 town, and to be quite honest you were not being as townish as I think you believe you were being. At least for me, when I voted you and for the period I believed you were scum it had *nothing* to do with how active you are, and let me assure you that I have played with very active scum. Personally I'd avoid the angling at maybe false claim play in the future - though I will admit I tend to negatively react towards lying from non-PR town players.

Bah. Oh well, that one was my fault. I should have thought through my actions better before making them. My apologies to the rest of the town.

Most of your actions were fine from my perspective except your overeagerness around the hammer. The near hammer of }|{opa Day 1 was really sketchy looking. You'll get better at explaining your opinions as you play the game more, that's just a newbie aspect that will change with time. Also, just as advice, don't be too excited about being "right" about charter - I was "right" about edmund - but neither of those things mattered because we couldn't get other people to realize we were right. 100% accuracy is meaningless if you can't explain and get others to agree with the read.

@fenchurch - I really liked the compressed play in this game. 2 mislynches and lose is rough for town, but the almost instant acceleration into lylo was really beneficial to me as an education tool. If you run this or similar to it again please consider me /pre-in.

[BlakAdder]

@Thor: Thanks for the pointers. And the whole being right about charter thing was more for laughs anyway.

[edmund.angles]

@Thor: I finally get your point about the mass-claim, but I still don't agree. The benefit hinged on getting someone else than opa lynched and with everyone else dead set opa, can't see how that could happen. And even then I think your effort would have been better spent by starting a wagon on someone else (especially me), see if you could get everyone along. Same benefit, less information spilled. Also remember that our(scum) chance of killing CommieX (barring role block) was only 2/3 due to the possibility of a doctor, but it would have been 100% for the other PR if he was revealed.

@smashbro: I think it would potentially be much worse for town if you had lied about being PR - that could have set up scum for a safe fakeclaim costing town the victory right there and then.

@BlakAdder: Actually, you were nowhere near as scummy as opa.

@CommieX: Don't give up, I thought you played well. I have a one suggestion, though:
Don't reveal so much as confirmed town - when you said you considered me most town I knew you would value my opinion. Had you said nothing about it I might have bussed Charter.

@Fenchurch: Loved the setup - count me in if you do it again.

Does anyone have any pointers to help my game?

PS: I like playing town best - hope that means I'm town in RL

[Thor665]

@edmund - worst I had you doing was two things.

The worst was pretty much noted in my last post - you cases against BA and charter were points I agreed with, but your "clearing" of charter reasons were terribad and that's what got me twigging on you again. Of course, you might have felt the reach was worth it because Commie apparently had such a strong town read on you.

The other thing was I felt awkward about your stated desire to not massclaim Day 1 but to encourage massclaim Day 2. Thing is, that was easily just a opinion difference with no alignment connection so I really wouldn't have pressed too hard on it by itself.

I think the trick with this setup is for PRs to claim PR, but not specific roles - that would make town lynch Day 1 much more accurate and provide scum a risk when it came to Night 1 kills and that would strongly balance the 2mislynch -> lose aspect. Too bad I was only smart enough to figure that all out by about midway through Day 2 - herpy derpy..

[Fenchurch]

Thanks for the positive comments! Unfortunately I can't take credit for the set-up, I merely chose it from the Open Games list. And edmund, of course I didn't mind you adding your own flavour

If I was playing, I'd also have opposed massclaim, edmund and charter have already done a good job of outlining the reasons. Pie's opinion on massclaim isn't the only one, and there really is no consensus about when is the right time for it, and who benefits most. I think I'd say D1 massclaim might be a good idea in a slightly larger game, or when the number/types of PRs are unknown, or when there's a vig/roleblocker who might accidently kill/block one of the other town PRs.

The "I am an unspecified PR" might have worked but only if the miller was not already revealed. But I don't think it would have made the D1 lynch more accurate if you'd known on that day smashbro was cop; you weren't about to lynch him anyway. Your thinking seems to be that if you could only narrow down your pool of suspects to 5 players then it will suddenly become easy to spot the scum among them, which really isn't the case (and it didn't happen on D2) - you still need to scrutinise each player, to scumhunt. And I don't think having competing claims on D2 is that bad either, often enough you can work out someone is lying from a bad fakeclaim.

}|{opa, your suggestion to have the Miller claim was reasonably good, but I was shocked when you asked to go last, since I knew you were town. I can understand why that came over as a scum-tactic, as a rule of thumb townies should not lie to protect themselves, since scum are the ones lying it will make you indistinguishable from them. It would have been better to call for the miller-claim and volunteer to be the

first

to go.

On the whole though, good play, and it was an enjoyable game to watch! I'd happily play with any of you if I get the chance

[Thor665]

I can see the argument against PR claims, but will note that pointing out how smashbro wasn't likely to be lynched was functionally irrelevant to the idea as I presented it. What if BA had been the PR? scum would have killed either BA or Commie and then we'd have townie feeling smashbro in there which would have been annoying around charter but would have solidified me on edmund.

The advantage I see in the claims is to give a theoretical seven player base a 2/5 chance (or 2/4 for the vanilla players) on Day 1 to hit scum. Scum would then kill a PR (and if the PRs didn't claim he better pray there is either no Doc or that he targets the Doc) This would leave town in a 4:1 situation with one confirmed town, giving two vanillas a 50/50 to hit scum correctly and the PR (if cop or RB) in a position to clear or damn a player.

I actually disagree with some of Pie's theories, but in a game with seven players getting two confirmed town is more powerful in my mind then getting a night or two out of the available powers (especially since cop is the only one that might be more valuable then confirmed town - RB in this setup is almost a liability with the potential cop or Doc role, and the Doc is a weak PR anyway.)

I think PR claim Day 1 is optimal town strategy for this setup.

Anyone see where I'm being stupid?