The Lord of the Rings Mafia - GAME OVER (KABOOM)

[MemoriaEsponia]

Vote: Nero Cain

For winning as scum in Supernatural Mafia.

[MemoriaEsponia]

Forgot to answer Locke Lamora's question.

I have seen a bit of a movie in The Lord of the Rings trilogy (Can't remember which movie it was) and I just started to read the books earlier this week, starting with

The Fellowship of the Rings

.

[MemoriaEsponia]

Forgot to post in the hydra. Anyway, the quote below is the same as #20.

1. Books or Movies?

Right now, I'll say the books, but that is subjected to change.

2. Favorite Book?

Right now, it's

The Fellowship of the Ring

since it's the only book out of the trilogy that I read. That may change once I finish reading that and read the other novels.

3. Favorite Movie?

I did see one of the movies but I can't remember which one it is. Given that I saw one of the movies during the summer of 2003,

The Return of the King

is not one of them. So I don't really know, although I do plan on seeing the first movie after finishing up the novel that I'm reading (It'll probably be on Youtube since my family doesn't have the money to buy movies).

4. Favorite Character(s)?

In the less then 100 pages I've read from

The Fellowship of the Ring

, right now I have to say Frodo Baggins. I like people who are adventurous and are willing to help out. The inter conflict with him and his ring is also interesting to look at and it help shows that the Ring is capable of corrupting anyone.

[MemoriaEsponia]

@VasudeVa: I'm not sure why you have a problem with Katuski not answering the questions. To me, Wraith's questions are more of a null tell then anything. Nero Cain and zwetchenwasser didn't answer Wraith's question either and they posted after Wraith made those questions. As a matter of fact, Katy went as far as to vote Wraith for those questions. What makes Katsuki different from those three who posted but also didn't answer Wraith's questions?

[MemoriaEsponia]

Greetings to those of you I know and have played with before. Too many people to directly name and I don’t have a lot of time tonight.

Welcome to those I don’t. There are several of you I know from reading other games and look forward to playing with directly.

My other head has already posted and managed to mis-post once already. Way to go other self

You will be able to distinguish my contributions by the stylized italics.

Responding in a general way to Locke’s and Wraiths question –

I’ve read The Hobbit, The Trilogy and about 75 pages of the Silmarilion until I just couldn’t take it anymore. I did so long ago when the Trilogy was still the seminal work of High fantasy but much less competition to the title existed.

I’ve seen all three Movies but it’s been years. In summary I’m familiar with the material but have lost many of the specific details to the mists of time.

The movies and books each are important in their own way. Second the notion that Glorfindal got screwed in the movies. Aragon is by far my favorite from the series.

On to more important matters –

Katy’s post re: Wraith’s list echoes exactly my thoughts as I was reading on my phone today. It’s filler that really doesn’t serve a significant concrete purpose as Locke’s question had already filled the generic conversation starter role, whether he intended it to or not.

@Zwet re: 35 – Starting off every game with a stupid fake-claim is tiresome to those players actually looking for scum. Don’t waste our time.

To those who don’t know Zwet – he fake-claims in an Anti-Town manner with clockwork regularity. Don’t assume any claim information that comes out of his mouth is in any way true.

Katsuki is playing very early to a developing scum meta that bears watching.

Gandalf aside from the absurdity of your claim (which I assume was in jest) it reminds me very much of ReaperCharlie’s Dumbledore claim in the recent Harry Potter Mafia.

One of you would have already earned my non-RVS vote, but I will have to discuss it with my other self.

Also my lack of time tonight has spared you from significant direct quoting. Don’t get used to that.

[MemoriaEsponia]

Can we please stop with the claims already? I don't see the purpose of claiming when the day just started today and no one is in any danger of being lynched. Maybe I can see why zwetchenwasser claimed as it makes sense for a miller to claim very early in the game, but gandalf5166 had absolutely no reason to claim this early whatsoever. None of the votes on him were actually serious and no one expressed intentions on voting him. Let's look at gandalf5166's claim:

- He's Gandalf with flavor saying that he's so awesome that no one could believe he's scum.
- After declaring that, he becomes a Tree Stump with a vote and a JOAT.
- He can do any actions but can only use three actions per Night.
- Said that disadvantage to saying Gandalf is that he has to type the word out.
- Mason with Gwaihir who is his permanent bodyguard until Gandalf claims and he becomes a jailkeeper afterwards, but that Gwaihir cannot claim.

Conclusion: This claim is so unrealistic it hurts, even by a Large Theme standard. My response to his claim:

- I have limited knowledge of the series yet people with half a brain should be smart enough to realize that the flavor definently doesn't look near believeable.
- The point of a Tree Stump is that they live, but lose their votes. A Tree Stump being able to keep his vote after stumping himself doesn't make any sense to me.
- There is no way in hell that he could be able to perform any sorts of actions in here. Gandalf is not God. I also find being able to use three Night Actions per Night incredibly unlikely.
- If your role is that powerful, then I can't see the disadvantage of claiming being that small.
- Once again, this makes no sense to me. You claim an incredibly powerful role yet the disadvantage to claiming is that you have to type out his name. Yet your suppose mason partner is not allowed to claim. Even if you claimed that both were at equal power (Which I've already said doesn't make sense), I still can't see that part being true.

And another thing, if your role is litterally that powerful, then unless every other townie were a Vanilla Townie, this game would be completely broken in favor of the town, not to menton scums would have to be very very strong as well.

I can't see this possibly being a town role, so therefore, I think you are scum.

Unvote, Vote: gandalf5166

---

Katsuki's #40 is a lot of random nonsense that doesn't add anything to the game. I don't see any purpose on how it can help town in any shape or form.

[MemoriaEsponia]

Need to stop mis-posting and pay attention to what account I'm on.

Lol, it was a joke. Have you ever played with me in a large theme RVS? I always do shit like this. But thanks for ruining my fun. :C My rolename may or may not be Gandalf, but I definitely don't have anything close to the abilities I claimed. Also, tell me how exactly my "role" could be a scum role?

1. No I have not.

2. Not getting a good feeling about the entire post. I don't like how you attempt to dismiss it as a "joke" by your behalf. To me, it looks like scum attempt to get people all rallyed up about an unbelieveable claim and then expect them to drop it as soon as you say it's a joke.

3. The reason why I think that type of role is more likely a scum role then a town role is because scum have less players on their side and therefore are able to have more powerful players to work with without it completely breaking the set-up in their favor.

That role would completely break the setup for any side. Three vigs a night much? Or three cops? Or three anythings? No mod would ever be stupid enough to put it in a game.

I'll agree that the role would be broken on any side, I'm just saying if by some means the mods miraculously managed to have the gut to put such a role in, it would be more of a scum/third-party role.

---

If this is meant to be a serious vote, IGMEOY Katy. People who nitpick early posts and use them to start bandwagons are often scum.

OMGUS reply noted. The attack as a whole is flimsy. I thought that Katy's post had pro-town motivation, even thought I disagree that your RQS post was scummy. Reason being was that she sounds like she was genuinely scum hunting and explained why it was scummy.

[MemoriaEsponia]

@Glork: Your vote on us in #73 looks serious; yet you have given us no evidence supporting why we are scum. Please explain why we are the best lynch candidate for today.

[MemoriaEsponia]

@Memoria:Do you honestly still believe in OMGUS? Did you discuss your #64 post with your hydra-mate before posting that, or is it purely of your belief?

1. Yes I do. I believe it can be used as a valid scum tell against another person. As for why I find Wraith's OMGUS reply scummy, it looks as if scum-Wraith wants to avoid further attention being placed on him.

2. That is purely of my belief. I am willing to respect what my hydra say and will even consider what he's talking about, but I'm not going to wait around until Monday just to place a serious vote on a person (My other hydra is always V/La from Friday to Sunday).

I would say it mostly has to do with ME being scum.

If you honestly think we're scum, we like to hear reasons why. Same question to inHamshallibe,

Zwet should be ignored as much as possible, obv. For the uninformed: zwet, in a recent game, singlehandedly demolished Town with his antics.

I don't see how Mini 1000: The Brave and the Beautiful is an example of how zwetchenwasser destroyed town. First off, the town won that game, not scums. But most importantly, zwetchenwasser wasn't even in that game; therefore, it cannot be used an an example of how zwetchenwasswer destroys the town. If you have an example of how zwetchenwasswer singlehandedly destroyed the town, at least link to a game where zwetchenwasswer was in as a townie and town loss.

Is that a scumclaim?

No that isn't a scum claim. By ME, he's referring to our hydra and that he thinks we're scum.

Drippereth is joke-claiming. Otherwise he would be breaking Rules 14 and 15. Jester, maybe?

I do agree that Drippereth is probably fakeclaiming scum to gain reaction, but I don't think it's solely restricted to jesters. See Mini 988: Small Town Mafia in where Nachomamma8 claimed scum at the beginning of the game to gain reaction (He didn't "out" his scum buddies thought) and he was town.

I don't think a Gandalf wagon is a good one. It was just a jokeclaim.

Yes he was jokeclaiming, but I don't like the way gandalf5166 passed it as one. I'll say it again, it looks like that gandalf5166-scum wants to purposely gain a reaction then when he claim it as a joke, he expects suspicion to go away.

That is a interesting point.

What about that quote that makes it an interesting post?

[MemoriaEsponia]

@Katsuki: You're saying that VasudeVa is the best lynch for today for following his scum meta and that he's skating through the game, but you give more justification for why gandalf5166 is scummy.

1. Why do you think that VasudeVa's following his scum meta by skating through the game is scummier then what gandalf5166 has done? I hear more bad thing about gandalf5166 from you then VasudeVa and sharper criticism on gandalf5166.

2. VasudeVa looks to be pretty outspoken about his opinions on the game so far. Why do you think he's skating through the game? The logic there makes little sense to me.

I can direct you to several minis where I claimed scum, now that I think of it. But why would scum be reaction-fishing, ME?

To me, what you're doing looks like a good way for scum to intentionally put attention on themself and after they claim to be a joke, they watch as suspicion on them disappear.

Also, I can see fake claiming scum and fake claiming an extra huge town power role as two seperate things. Fake claiming scum as town during the first hours/days of the game is more of a risk that can get them lynched later on with one of the town motivations being they're trying to jumpstart converstation and get out of the RVS as soon as possible. To me, fake claiming an extra huge town power role under similar circumstance seems more likely a scum gambit because they have more oppertunities to hide themself and unlike with fake claiming scum as town very early in the game, fake claiming a huge town power role as scum reduce the risk of you exposing your scum partner

This post is terrible. Its not a serious claim, how can anyone who is actually paying attention believe he was being serious?

gandalf5166 did claim that it was a joke, I will admit that, but the reason why I got so rallyed up about is because if the claim was serious then it would more likely come from a scum then a townie or that he would be lying all together. However, my vote on gandalf5166 is staying because of formentioned reason above and that I have noticed his defense becoming weaker and weaker.

[MemoriaEsponia]

So you realized it was a joke, but IF it wasn't a joke, it was a scum fake claim? Explain to me why scum would seriously fake claim such an insane role.

Not at the beginning.. Originally when I made that vote on gandalf5166, I thought he was actually being serious about it. I dropped that accustion when he said it was a joke realizing that I was wrong to say that he was fake claiming that role. As discussed yesterday with gandalf5166, that kind of role would break the set-up but if such insane role exist, it is more likely to be anti-town.

And as for why scum could claim such role, I have already explained this before. Please take a look at my response to gandalf5166 at ISO: 9 for the explanation why scum could claim such insane role.

Vote: ME
I'm sorry, but if he's seriously going to act like that was a serious claim..........

I already said earlier that I realize that you are joking about that claim, I am not treating it as if it was serious.

Okay, Kat is scum, and probably with Mariyta. She has made one content post, but she's town anyways? Lulz.
VOTE: Mariyta

Not liking this vote at all. You are voting Mariyta for lack of contents; yet there are quite a few players who produced as much, if not less contents, then Mariyta. What makes them so different from Mariyta aside from Katsuki including Mariyta in his town list?

Maybe interesting isn't the right word. What I meant is...that its something to keep in mind 'cause really I don't see his day play as pro-town so far.

Fair enough, I see where you are coming from. I also agree that Wraith isn't looking too good now.

This always happens. Every single goddamn game I play some asshole takes one of my RVS posts that doesn't mean anything, calls it scummy, and I am immediately launched to the top of the scumlist. Five games in a row and counting.

Then let me ask you this, what scum hunting purposes does your RQS questions serve? When you answered Nero Cain's question to you regarding the RQS questions in ISO: 4, you didn't include anything that was related to scum hunting. Prehaps if you had a scum hunting purpose in your RQS questions, you wouldn't be receiving that much scrunity from the start.

[MemoriaEsponia]

Ok, back from my usual weekend V/LA and reading.

[MemoriaEsponia]

I’m glad you all have had your fun with my other head while I was away.

On the Gandalf issue –

I’m not quite sure why my other head went so full bore against Gandalf. His claim we clearly a joke (I called it absurd in my greeting post). That said I have some comments to make on the subject –

O HAI MOI. MY CLAIM WAS 100% TRUE, UNLIKE RC'S. I THINK HE WAS SCUM THAT GAME? AND COULD YOU LINK TO THAT CLAIM, CAUSE IF YOU'RE GOING TO COMPARE ME TO SCUM I WANT TO BE ABLE TO SEE THE COMPARISON TOO.

No, I’m not your secretary. It’s not hard to find the thread and ISO Reaper. His claim is in the first day.

Your claim is similar on two front –

It’s a claim of a very powerful, central figure in the game. One that is going to be heavily considered Town, regardless of how often people bring up the fact that source flavor does not have to equal game flavor.

The claim is that of a pretty powerful JOAT figure.

Of course the claims are very different n other fronts because your was you playing VI while Reaper's was serious.

Unfortunately, they're ongoing >.> I have two larges complete, but way back then, I didn't act so stupid in RVS. However, I do it as scum and town, so it's a null-tell, not a towntell. I've found that it draws attention to me, tending to end the RVS, but does so without SERIOUS pressure being drawn to me, resulting in me getting lynched >.>

Ooba’s Mad World is hardly ancient history so I find the statement that you always do it to be a stretch. You certainly didn’t there.

If you know acting in a stupid manner draws attention to you that often results in you getting lynched why do you persist in playing in that manner? It’s playing against your Win-condition, regardless of your role.

I doubt there are many players foolish enough to counter-claim your ‘joke’ but if it was a fake-claim I don’t see why you have any reason to do so as Town.

On the issue of early game ‘gambits’ –

I’ll only go so far as to say the effectiveness of said gambits is greatly reduced by

A. The known perchant for the gambiter to do that sort of thing (claim scum, etc)
B. The number of gambits going on.

@Memoria:Do you honestly still believe in OMGUS? Did you discuss your #64 post with your hydra-mate before posting that, or is it purely of your belief?

As stated by my other head we have not discussed this. I don’t think OMGUS is in any way a scum or Town tell. Using it as scum-hunting is highly overrated. So I think it’s a fairly useless point to have been made.

Drippereth is joke-claiming. Otherwise he would be breaking Rules 14 and 15. Jester, maybe?

The absurdity of the Jester speculation aside – do you think claiming scum would be a great way to play the Jester role?

I don't know. I'm still trying to figure out why someone would possibly read that claim and think it was true. Could be scum, could be VI, could be nothing.

If you don’t think it is a scum-tell at this juncture why go to the trouble of quoting the whole post and say it is terrible. It obviously was terrible. Without further conclusions that post was simply filler.

Katsuki, why am I not on your town list? All the other cool kids are on it.

The better question would be – why do you care so much about whether you make it onto a randomly thrown together list?

Now that I have all that out of the way –

UNVOTE: Gandalf

I’ll have to discuss with my other head over the next few days where our vote is going.

[MemoriaEsponia]

Forgot two. Now, obviously, these probably aren't ALL scum. Right now, though, I'd wager that the majority of scum in this game are in the following lists.

Two month Avatar bet. If you are right you get to choose mine (and by mine I mean my Main's, not the Hydra's). If you are wrong I get to choose yours. Put your money where you mouth is?

In a 25 person game I’m guessing about 6 scum. And of the six players on your list that I don't know are Town I’m doubting that 4 ( a majority of 6 ) are scum.

@ME: Yes, because it can get you lynched if you pull it off well enough.

And yet your first reaction was Jester, so I think you theory is just that – a theory that holds no real basis in how the game is actually played.

Second of all, I can't provide evidence myself because almost all the games in question are currently ongoing. The only finished game I can provide as an example is one where I am actually scum (however my play is entirely different in that game). If you want to find the games in question, find them yourself, which should be easy considering as least one of your heads was in most of them. If you aren't willing to look for them yourself, don't call me scum for not doing it for you.

If the only example you can offer shows, in fact, that you were scum caught in that manner your assertion isn’t valid. If you play was ‘entirely’ different that game how did you end up lynched for ‘nitpicking’, as you put it?

Did you not read the second sentence of that quote?

I did … so you are fluffing to lower your potential viability as a NK by not appearing too Town … gotcha.

Does Kat's list seem really arbitrary to anyone else? His unwillingness to explain them only makes them seem more so.

The question I have is this – why is Katsuki’s pointless list worth asking for justification but InHim or Drip’s not?

Indicative of alignment: At this point, not sure. Leaning scum. (he should be on scum list as I said earlier). TBH though, I have had that experience in the first 2 games I played on MS (one of which andrius likes to remind me of), so I know how it feels being frustrated as town in that regard.

If you can’t come up with a solid scum motivation for the actions then it’s not a scum-tell. Explain exactly how Wraith’s posts serve to further his game as theoretical scum.

I found this post highly interesting.

Interesting – the word you use to imply scum intent when you can’t directly say something is scummy. Weasel-wording which usually comes from Scum

.

[MemoriaEsponia]

My other head apparently has been too busy to get back and provide his thoughts …

On Haylen’s death –

Going on and on about whether it was Town, Mafia or a SK who did this is pointless. The discussion is WIFOM. What we know – we lost a Town power-role to either a stupid Town action or a very lucky scum action.

On Zwet’s flavor for his claim -

Quite honestly it is horrible. Two elves died in ‘pre-game’ that were clearly shown as Town. The explanation for why Arwen is a Miller (Dwarves and Men being distrusting and Arwen’s purity causing her Miller status) make little sense.

On Mass-claiming –

Mass-claiming race would really only be effective if scum don’t have fake-claims or can’t think enough to manufacture their own fake-race, the scum are easily identifiable by their race-claim, and the flavor of the source ties closely to the flavor of the game.

Aragorn’s flip indicates flavor is so far consistent but is hardly a large sample.

The biggest upside I can see to mass-claiming would be locking scum into any fake-claims for scum that are not Man, Dwarf, or Elf.

The biggest downside I can see currently is potentially outing Town PRs solely based on distribution of races in the game.

The downside outweighs the upside, IMO.

An actual bet has nothing to do with scumhunting, and everything to do with distraction.

Actually it has everything to do with determining how much you believe what you are saying. Because your lists pretty much are fluff if you aren’t willing to back your statements.

And please explain how it is a distraction? It certainly has more to do with scum-hunting as opposed to your fluff about cleaning your car.

By the way, did everyone else miss Wraith's obvbreadcrumbing of Denethor?

No but surely some of us who didn’t knew not to SCREAM IT FROM THE ROOFTOPS. Seriously, why do that?

@Katsuki

– You failed to answer this the first time in regards to Wraiths ‘Why Me’ posts

If you can’t come up with a solid scum motivation for the actions then it’s not a scum-tell. Explain exactly how Wraith’s posts serve to further his game as theoretical scum?

@Glork

– Avatar bet that I offered to InHim on this statement?

So half our scumgroup is Spyre/Weird/ME. Money in the fucking bank.

Hell, I’ll even simply narrow it down to me only. All you have to do is be convinced that your rhetoric you’ve been pushing is correct in regards to me.

Wraith: I will straight up tell you right now that inHim is like 97% likely to be town. Consider it personal meta. That's probably not a very good place for your vote to be.

If InHim’s Town meta is to post low content, make pointless lists and fluff then so be it. That said I ABSOLUTELY HATE players getting passes for not contributing based on lazy Town meta. InHim’s posts are pretty much content free so far.

I'll have more later, including a list of People Who Need to Post Or Perish. Quick version: ME, Jenn, Locke, a2rude, SlySly, mole, rewq, bv

This head isn’t going to spam post like so many others here. Not sure about my other head. If you think missing one day (Wednesday) of making a post is scummy you have some serious issues. Let’s analyze your list though. Post counts before this post –

ME -14 posts
Jenn – 7 posts
Locke – 8 posts
A2rude – 1 post (V/LA notice given)
Slysly - 4 posts
Mole – 4 posts
Rewq – 12 posts
Bv310 – 4 posts

And some players not on your list –

CES – 12 posts
InHim – 11 posts
Katy – 6 posts
Nero – 7 posts
WierdRa – 4 posts
Zwet – 6 posts

I’m sure you’ll assess that my slot deserves inclusion on the list over every one of the other players based on content basis. That’s your prerogative. That said claiming I need to post or perish based on a 48 hour period is at best reaction fishing.

What, if anything, have you done this game that could be construed as "dominant"

Are you saying that, in fact, you're "dominant" as scum and as town you self destruct?

Spyrex this is the only thing in your ISO that makes me doubt you are Town having seen your Day 1 scum-play up close. Did you seriously not understand that Wraith was referring to other games where he was the dominant member of a Mafia group and not to this specific game?

Now on to who is scum – let’s look at the Katsuki Scum Checklist –

Cute fluffs stating he isn’t ‘familiar’ with the material? Check

General fluff throughout the ISO – Check

Use of weasel-wording in comments about people (interesting, vibes, etc) coupled with refusal to explain or elaborate reads / attacks? Check

Blending in with dominant personalities (via emulating styles / post plans) – Check

VOTE: Katsuki

I’ve seen your act up close and personal. Your claims regarding flavor familiarity are just like in Castlevania.

Your attack on Gandalf’s ‘joke claim’ in ISO 7 when you had just claimed Harry Potter in ISO 4 is hypocritical and pure self-contradictory.

Your Town / Scum list that appears at ISO 11 – how convienant that it comes after InHim and the Elli hydra head make similar lists. Classic blending / buddying up on your end.

[MemoriaEsponia]

inHim laid his suspicions on a sliver platter in most of his early posts, and when he got disconnected with the game yesterday, promised to muse and post further today. Your accusations of "nothing but fluff" are entirely inaccurate and little more than the same weasel-wording you're accusing Katsuki of. I would also argue that your accusations of "general fluff" towards Kats are inaccurate, so I can't help but question your definition of what "fluff" is. If you want to accuse someone of posting non-content in the absence of providing suspicions, you MUST provide specific examples. These unsubstantiated claims do nothing but make you dubious.

It’s great that you think making a Scum list has ‘laid his suspicions on a silver platter’. It’s not scum-hunting at all. Sorry, it just isn’t. Did he provide the reasons which MUST (per you) be included? Nope.

Let’s look at InHim’s ISO in general –

ISO 0 – RVS vote for Haylen.
ISO 1 – Votes VV and provides his scum list and a Vig list. Where are the specific example of why they are scum he MUST INCLUDE?
ISO 2 – Calls bv310 scum for making something unimportant seem scummy. The pot calling the kettle black here.
ISO 3 – Comments that Mariyta isn’t ‘doing her own thinking’ by agreeing with Drip. Not sure how this indicates Mariyta is scum since the number of people cuddling up to certain ‘personalities’ is approaching double digits.
ISO 4 – Ok, Mariyta is a SK and bv is scum now. Votes for Mariyta. Where are the people decrying LMP for SK hunting in regards to InHim? Same ‘crime’ being committed.
ISO 5 - Yet another ‘helpful’ scum list.
ISO 6 – And an addendum to said list.
ISO 7 – Questions Mariyta on notion that she should immediately know Gollum is the killer.
ISO 8 – Denys my bet.
ISO 10 – Car fluff. Sorry, stating he has to ‘think’ isn’t content.

If you call that scum-hunting more power to you. I more suspect you are more attached to InHim’s join date than actual content he provides.

As to my assetions about Katsuki – Let’s look since you are so upset about it –

Cute fluffs stating he isn’t ‘familiar’ with the material? – ISOs 1, 3, 4, 16, 29

General fluff throughout the ISO (and I should specificy outside of RV/QS) – ISOs 9, 12, 15, 19, 21, 25, 30, 32, 37,

Use of weasel-wording in comments about people (interesting, vibes, etc) coupled with refusal to explain or elaborate reads / attacks (or respond to question intended here also)? ISOs 10, 14, 17, 27, 31, 33, 43, 45

Blending in with dominant personalities (via emulating styles / post plans) – 11 (explained already), 18 (Fate/ Spyrex emulation)

And the irony that you defend InHim when he ‘scum-hunts’ with ZERO support but attack me on the same count is delicious. Inconsistent standards? You are soaking in it!

For example, while you've made 14 posts (15 now), the plurality of them are RVS/RQS posts, and the HORRIBLE over-justification of your HORRIBLE case on Gandalf's OBVIOUS JOKECLAIM. I also find it HIGHLY INTERESTING that you've refused to acknowledge how superbad your attack was, or that it's my main reason for suspecting you. You're trying to discredit me on random other accounts and ignoring the reason that I've explicitly stated that I feel you are scum. I believe we call that TEXTBOOK STRAWMANNING.

I’ve said my peace regarding the attack on Gandalf in ISO 12. Voting Gandalf was pointless and stupid since the claim itself isn’t a scum-tell. It’s why I unvoted him in my first post since my other head made the poor attacks. [EDIT – I now see you response. I’m not deleting this because I think it bears stating]

[MemoriaEsponia]

To everyone who hammered LMP for SK hunting - why is InHim not scum for doing the exact same thing?

[MemoriaEsponia]

Hey guys, I'm back.

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Not seeing how #211 from Mariyta is indicative of a SK. While I can see that Mariyta was congratulating scum, I can't really see it being indicative of a SK alignment.

and the person(s) who have never played with me before and are jumping on the zwethate wagon (which I don't particularly mind) are scummish as of right now (for purely nonOMGUS reasons).

At this time, Nero Cain was the only person who has a vote on you (Although there are a few more now). Do you have non-OMGUS reasons for suspecting Nero Cain like you said you had?

3. U IZ ACTUALLY WRAITHS BUDDY GG

Not seeing any connections between LynchMePls and Wraith that would indicate that they are scums together.

Why do you need to convince anyone? The town figure out who's scum on their own, and only scum need to "steer" the town into a lynch.

Same reason as everyone else. You can think that a person just has to be scum with his behavior in the game, but if you fail to exploit the behaviors that they commit could be coming out of scums, then how do you expect to form wagons on people you think are scums and get them lynched?

WTF with the SK guys? If we kill the SK it saves us 1 kill a day. Why is that bad? Also, how am I "focusing on the SK hunting" when I've been pushing multiple people?

I do agree that removing an anti-town kill is a good thing for the town, but I think what people are saying is not that you are only hunting for the SK, but that at the time, you emphaized on killing the SK.

Vote: Zwetschenwasser

I know this has been said already, but the miller claim makes little sense, and the flavor makes even less. There is little reason to lie, but he most likely is lying. This is definitely anti-town.

This basically parrots with other people have said on the subject. Doesn't add anything new to the table or any worthwhile insights.

*sigh*
FTR, I never scumslip. It just doesn't happen. I look at my posts before I make them.

Looks like a scumslip to me.

You said that there were "other scumteams" in the game. How could you have information regarding us having other scum teams in this game, especially when we've only received a town flip so far? That post proves you have scum slipped.

---

Also, ME, I have a question. You say that if my role was real, it would be scum. How would town get rid of me?

One way they could get rid of you is if they lynched you before stumping. Although unlikely, it would certainly be possible.

Okay, looking over ME's ISO I don't find anything particularly scummy at the moment other than his vote for gandalf, which is baseless. Is meta the only thing you have on him?

As I pointed out in ISO: 10, I didn't like how he voted for Mariyta for lack of contents while not addressing other people as well. But we don't think he's the best lynch for today anymore after we looked back in the thread.

[MemoriaEsponia]

The "join date" comment is ridiculous, and you know it. That said, there is something to be said about players who have played together frequently being able to meta one another. There are a handful of players (Thok, petroleumjelly, CES) who can read me like a book, and I'm asserting that I can do the same for others (such as inHim).

Feel free to reference this post from Square Enix III. (NOTE: That post references SquareEnix I, where I correctly meta'd inHim as town. In SEIII, I correctly meta'd him as scum. In this game, he is almost undoubtedly town.) inHim isn't getting a free pass merely for a join date. He's getting a free pass because I can objectively say that, based on his posts, his play is much more consistent with him being town than with him being scum. Wraith was wise enough to put a degree of faith in what I said, though he (correctly) takes my words with a grain of salt. You seem more interested in flately rejecting whatever I say by any means you deem fit.

I play Mafia with an independent approach. I’m not going to let you personally mold my opinion on whether InHim is scum or Town. I’m certainly not going to call you scum for saying he is Town based on meta. Likewise I’m not going to ignore his play and will independently assess it. If you have a problem with this I can’t much help that.[/i]

ME's ItalicsHead, I'm curious to know your thoughts on the following players:
Zwet
Fate/Edge
Jenni
Drippereth

Zwet is absolutely useless. For reasons outside this game I’ve banned him from any games I run. He falls in the category of Vezok as players who should be vigged but must be dealt with in the short term. His claim here runs counter to his meta as his usual fake-claims as Town he often backs off at first opportunity. I’d call it a Null tell at best.

Jenni is not contributing as much as I would like based on my experiences with her. Given meta I’m leaning Town on her. She’s not very confident and the mass of strong personalities here make me think her lack of strong contribution has to do with indirect intimidation.

Edge / Drip – I dislike reaction fishing based styles of play. There is a place for them in the game but I’m not a fan. I have a slight Town read on Edge based on personal Meta of one of the heads. No significant read to either Town or scum for Drip. Especially in a Day 1 of a Large game these sorts of players don’t read until flips start to happen, IMO. Several other players you didn’t mention fall right into this group also, BTW.

Like ME, you seem to be missing my point. I'm not conducting an analysis of the lists themselves. I'm conducting an analysis of "suspicions presented versus non-scumhunting-related words posted."

I understand your point .. I just don’t subscribe to your theory (shocking I know at this point). Anyone can throw together an unsupported suspicion list. If you give them more weight than I do as to determining the quality of someone’s play that’s your choice.

On to other issues -

I dislike Rewq’s vote at 478. It feels very much like placing a safe vote away from any controversy.

SlySly’s cherry picking of part of my statement is very poor. For the moment I’ll accept the reasoning based on the way it was cropped but I will be looking VERY closely at any quoted support he provides. Tampering with quotes to bolster a case is very scumtastic. Additionally spamming the thread regarding UFC as opposed to scum-hunting is scumtastic.

On Gandalf’s 'slip'

– I disregarded it when he made the first “ME will get NKed” comment based on personal experience. Gandalf lost his chance at victory as a Reverse Survivor Mason in Ooba’s Mad World Mafia when he failed to use one of his two unblockable Protects on me Night 1 and I was ventilated by the Mafia in the usual fashion. His first statement is flippant but understandable. I think the second statement regarding the ‘second scum team’ isn’t necessarily a slip but his followup that ‘he doesn’t scum-slip’ flies in the face of the reality of his Open games as scum. He’s a second good target for any Vigs to keep in mind.

Katsuki’s response to my assertions that he is scum at 578 is scumtastic. He pretty much ignores the bulk of my case and tries to link it to some sort of defense of Gandalf.
Happy where my vote sits for the moment.

@Katy

– Who do you think is scum now? You’ve unvoted Glork and not committed to any of the suspicions you listed in 562.

As per usual this head will not be around much til Monday.

[MemoriaEsponia]

@WeirdRa: I can understand why you may have sporadic posting timeframe, but what about Me=Weird? He's a more active player on the site and has been posting frequently on this forum in recently days. Yet he's only posted once in this game which was on September 27, 2010.

I like how you are coming to the protection of your buddy gandalf, but as noble as it is, gandalf is beyond hope.

I suppose you're implying a connection between gandalf5166 and Wraith with that post?

1. Looking at #576, I do not see anything significant from that post that would indicate that gandalf5166 and Wraith are scum buddies.

2. If #576 is enough to make Wraith a scum buddy to gandalf5166, then why aren't other people who have said that the slip wasn't particularly convincing to them {Edge, Katy, Maryita, others that I might have missed}.

EBWOP: In fact, I'd like BOTH of your heads to compare Drippy to inHim. You can go first, assuming you're still here right now, but make sure your other head does the same.

I will be going first, especially considering my other head probably started his V/LA by now.

inHimshallibe: Taking a very passive approach to the game and looks to be coasting in this game, which I find suspicious (Which can be said for some other people as well). Both hydra heads here have played with him at least once in Mini 974: Thrillville Mafia and IIRC, he played a bit differently, although I'll need to reread his ISO in that game to see if he's following his town meta from there in this game. As for the list, he looks to be pretty open in terms of suspicion, which I can consider a slight town tell. Currently a null read to me.

Drippereth: Getting a town read off the hydra. First and foremost, it reminds me of their play in an ongoing game where they flipped town. Secondly, they have been contributed to helping to out quite a bit and shows genuine interest in scum hunting. Only post that doesn't really give me good vibes is Drippereth's vote for gandalf5166, which looks a bit like bandwagoning to me. As for the list, it is most likely outdated since I believe the list scum list Drippereth made was on September 26, 2010, so I do not have much of an opinion on it.

[MemoriaEsponia]

Hypothetically, Kat flips scum and I guarantee you folks will say Oh lets look at her list. Did she put the scum members under the town tag? Are the scum members even listed? Its all a bunch of WIFOM.

Katsuki flipping scum would not be entirely WIFOM. We would be able to analyze Katsuki-scum town/scum list/etc. list and then look at the interaction Katsuki had with those players. That can be a great way to find scums, because it leads to connection between Katsuki-scum and other scums in the game.

I've heard this before and for the most part I agree, its not really chainsaw until Kat flips scum and even then it might not be.

This quote is contradictory. You are saying that you mostly agree with what Glork said (That the chainsaw defense was a very inaccurate tell) and that even if Katsuki flipped scum, it may not be a chainsaw defense. Yet back in #598, you said that jenniwren's ISO #5 was the "definition of chainsaw defense". Any reason for the contradiction?

[MemoriaEsponia]

@zwetchenwasser: Do you realize that you just totally skipped Glork's #623? If you aren't going to answer his question, explain to us why you are refusing to do so. Instead, we get this:

Katsuki has failed to take an actual stance on me

This post looks like you're worried about how people perceive you instead of worrying about finding scums. Why do you think it matters what people think of you?

Can we lynch him? I mean, really. I know he's a great vig target but lynching scum is good, too.

Yet you place no vote on zwetchenwasser. If you aren't going to vote him despite showing desire to lynch him today, then I see no purpose of this quote.

[MemoriaEsponia]

The following players are lurking and providing next to nada on content. They all need to collectively step it up

–

InHim, bv310, CES, a2rude, and MSG.

Warming up that bus? You scum buddies are funny.

Wait, whut? Wasn’t your call for Mariyta’s head predicated on the Serial Killer slip she supposedly made? If so how in the hell does she have scum-buddies? As they 80’s movie computer said – Does Not Compute!

MemEsp: Please compare and contrast the lists/posts provided by Drippereth (up to the point where I asked for your opinion on them) from the lists posted by inHim.

Comparing just the lists? Drip made two lists that I can see in their entire ISO (posts 0 and 3). Both are RVS reaction fishing lists since they are supposed to contain Drip’s scum buddies, IMO.

InHim’s lists on the other hand pepper his ISO. They clearly aren’t intended for reactions but to show his suspicions, per your arguments. They pretty much replace any semblance of scum-hunting from InHim.

Let me ask – what scum-hunting comes out of this request?

The "Chainsaw Defense" is one of the least accruate "tells" in Mafia, because any decent protown player *SHOULD* be pointing out and debunking terrible attacks.

I agree that it is a vastly over-used charge. The problem lies in most players not considering the content of the attack (actual debunking of a case versus mud-slinging) and the context. Recently I busted half of the Weird-ra Hydra for a chainsaw attack in LOST Season 1 Mafia. I’ll not say it is a null-tell but rather a generally badly used tell.

I also don't build giant walls of analysis/cases, just to make that clear to you guys. Mafia shouldn't be an essay writing contest imo.

Yes, everyone should just make lists and sling phrases like obv-scum back and forth

This list if Gandalf is scum?

COVERED IN IT.

Under the 2 scum groups being true theory there's probably 3-4 scum in that set.

This is ABSOLUTELY true if Weird is other team scum.

Help me with something Spyre. Best guess for scum-teams in a game this size with 2 Mafia is about 3 to 4 member each.

Are you saying that all but 1 if not all of a scum-team is likely found completely on an 8 person bandwagon?

Are you saying it is a mixture of opposing team and bussing?

I need clarity here Spyrex. Be all Clariton-D for my here.

Sorry, I was reading pre-fight hype while the discussion was going on and I got overly excited about the fight coming up. It is kind of funny that, due to your omission of it during your slight-smearing of me, THE BATMAN talk appears to have been okay with you, but the UFC statement wasn't. Does this excusing THE BATMAN talk mean you are reaching for a chainsaw to protect one or both of your buddies Edge or SpyreX?

The difference between Spyrex and Edge’s decent into stupid Batman antics and your UFC comments is this – they while spamming the thread with off-topic elements are also providing opinions. Your ISO before your response to me consists of the following

ISO 0 – RQS question response.
ISO 1 – Comments about Katy, Wraith, ME and Zwet. Vote for Drip for claiming scum.
ISO 2 – Statement that you don’t think Drip is scum but is distracting and a hindrance to Town.
ISO 3– Accuse Edge / Fate of claiming scum for being glad Haylen is dead.
ISO 4 – Selective quote and change of vote to ME.
ISO 5 – 6 – Unvote and explanation of mis-read of my Quote.
ISO 7 -8 – Comment that Zwet’s claim was out of character and general Miller claim discussions.
ISO 9 – Question to a2rude about who we should lynch.
ISO 10-13 – Batman and UFC fluff

Aside from ISO 1 I don’t see anything that qualifies as significant scum-hunting before ISO 14. Thus my comment.

Spoiler Alert: WeirdRa is scummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

You barely have had time for a quick read-through and your scum read just happens to be one of the current top suspects? What are the odds?

@Everyone

– Does anyone else get the feeling that the Nero versus Jenni sandbox fight looks like it could be safe, early game distancing from partners?

[MemoriaEsponia]

Welcome to the game Dekes!

---

@Gandalf5166: One of the main reasons why people considered Wraith scum (Lack of scum hunting) has been demolish by Wraith's recent contributation to help the town find scums. Do you still think he's the best lynch for today?

@VasudeVa (#720): Interested in knowing why you would deliberately leave Mariyta off the list. Why is it that you're trying to persuade Glork/SpyreX/Edge, but not Mariyta? If you want scum lynch, you want to convince everyone that the person needs to die.

---

This made me LOL. I think we have our lynch candidate for tomorrow if we don't have a vig to help us out tonight.

This gives me bad vibes. I do agree that zwetchenwasser will be a burden on the town if he keeps playing this way, but zwetchenwasser is a very difficult person to read and it could be just him exhibiting more of his VIness. It looks way too much of a policy/easy lynch to me to be comfortable with lynching him as opposed to just vigging him tonight so we won't have to deal with him.

Indeed. Wich is why I believe Kat took VV and possibly Wraith off her list. Yes upon Kat scum flip we should deffiantly look at interactions but it would be dangerous to only look at her list/interactions 'cause we don't know that they are listed/had interactions with her. We will revisit this after flip.

I can see where you are coming from, although I never did say we should only look at who Katsuki interacted with/the list, but that Katsuki's interactions with other people/Katsuki's list would give us the most information on Katsuki's scumbuddy if Katsuki flips scum.

I do not believe this is a contradiction. I did not change my original assumption that it feels like/looks like chainsaw. The way I interpreted Glork's post was that he was saying that I was premature in calling chainsaw.

Again, I can see where you are coming from, although you saying that even if Katsuki flipped scum that it might not be a chainsaw defense looks if you weren't confident in your statement.

Your other head is voting Kat. How does this head feel about Kat?

I agree with my other head that Katsuki is the best lynch for today, although my suspicion gap on Katsuki and others are narrower compared to my other head.

P.S. 30 page Day 1's are anti-town.

Disagree with this. While thirty pages is certainly an active Day 1, we also got a lot of information out of it and more things to be able to properly analyze people's contents in the game and if the player resembles a scum or a townie.

LMP is scum, but so is Gandalf. Gandalf makes a slip. LMP just plays obvscum. You lynch slips first.

So you're saying that if a "slip" were to occur, you expect that person to be top suspect on many people's list soon after? For me to switch to a person due to a slip, it depends on the severity of the slip and if the player has been playing scummy previously. If I think that person stands a good chance of flipping scum due to his behavior and that the slip is damning enough that it would most likely come out of a Mafia member, then I would happily switch my vote over. However, I don't believe a "slip" should automatically mean a vote. I won't switch my vote immediately to a person who I thought was town who made a slip that could be based off a commonplace in Mafia games, not exact information that only scums could know themselves.

And I thought about it for a few days and I have to agree with Glork, gandalf5166's slips isn't convincing enough to gain my vote on.

[MemoriaEsponia]

Wait, because Wraith started sccumhunting in the last few pages, he's now town? You realize that you just admitted he didn't scumhunt at all for the first TWENTY-FIVE PAGES, right? There's too many scum around here. I just can't vote them all.

I'm not saying that Wraith's relatively pro-town behavior recently completely cleans him of the things he's done and his mostly lack of scum hunting back then, I still look at past actions that people do and they still matter in terms of scum hunting and evidence supporting that a person is scum.

As for your second argument, when did I admit to saying Wraith has not scum hunted for the first twenty-five pages? By recent, I am saying he started to scum hunt in ISO #49, which was on September 30, 2010, page 18. While he did start out bad, his play has improved from there. So it's not just like he had one good real-life day and I said "He's scum hunting!".

[MemoriaEsponia]

Welcome Dekes –

Mod, just out of curiosity, does Dekes' unvote in #729 count?

Why do you particularly care and make a point to ask the Mod if a simple unvote is valid? What scum-hunting purpose does the question serve?

Meh, I'm better with this deadline wagon than I've been with others in other games. But I much prefer a Katsuki lynch to a WierdRa lynch at this point.

Pre-emptive distancing from the lynch noted for the record.

To be honest, two scum groups doesn't really make sense to me for this theme. The only real options would be Mordor and Isengard, but weren't they allied?

Pointless flavor and set-up speculation also noted. We will most likely have a solid idea of the number of scum teams soon enough. Going on about it now is just filler.

However, if he is scum and this is happening, he is probably a minor scum role, and therefore not the best lynch for today.

As has been pointed out this is pure a Scum-perspective statement. No way does this come from a Town player.

.

If you have a choice between say a goon, or a scum power role, such as a recruiter, who would you choose to lynch? If I had a choice to lynch someone who is a scum and is probably a goon, or someone who is more likely to be a higher up scum member, I would choose the person who is most likely the higher up member. I dare you to tell me that logic is flawed.

Your logic is flawed because the premise of a choice between Scum PR and Scum Goons is faulty. Town never has this sort of information to make that sort of choice. It sounds all nice and Town-like to say you’d rather lynch a Scum PR over a Scum Goon. But it’s a theoretical discussion that has no bearing on the game.

I’m not even going to get into the fact that your logical leap that Gandalf must be a Goon is just a leap.

The same reason WierdRa should claim. They are both at the same vote-count and we need to choose one to lynch.

No Wraith in this case has it correct – rolefishing ho. You either didn’t read the thread with the sudden avalanche of 3 votes that went to WeirdRa or a pretending to ignore them. And let’s consider that even disregarding that WeirdRa had more votes already in the prior vote count.

So because I thought she was probably the SK earlier I have to ignore all other evidence? I'm allowed to take new information and change my opinion, in fact setting it in stone would be retarded.

Far be it from me to say you can’t change your read. I am suggesting, however, that the stridency you displayed earlier in proclaiming Mari as the obv-SK seems like pure rhetoric in light of your new theory.

Nothing necessarily wrong with that – but its not something I expect from you in comparison to others who play a very rhetoric based game. So I have to reassess your contributions in that light.

EBWOP: Actually, go ahead and take a look at Drippereth's first page (25 posts).

Ok, I’m going to review Drip’s and InHim’s first page and compare by listing the ISO posts that I think show any signs of scum-hunting or displaying opinions with at least some support. I’m going to be as charitable as I can on that accord.

Drip - ISOs 6, 8, 9, 13, 19, 21, and 24
InHIm – ISOs 2, 3, 7, 12, 14, 18

And I’ve been very charitable there, IMO. Neither ISO looks overwhelming in terms of scum-hunting. And I think overall Elli’s head is producing more content that DGB’s.

@Drip and Locke Lamora

– Both of you went after LMP for SK hunting. Why did you not go after InHim? He did the exact same thing in ISO 4.

VV scum appears pro-town too. Flips will give better indication of VV personally.

You have compelling meta support for this assertion? Or are you just basically making this up?

You are blowing smoke.

Prior to the outbreak of THE BATMAN discussion, I, directly or rhetorically, provided an opinion for, but not limited to, each of the following:
1. Millers claiming with the first post of the game.
2. Zwet's presence in a game regardless of alignment.
3. The possibility of Zwet being a death miller.
4. Dripperth claiming scum with her first post of the game.
5. The level of pro-town in DGB's wackiness.
6. Edge/Fate's happiness over Haylen's death.

What of this epic list you assembled actually contributes to hunting for scum? 1 is pure Site theory. 3 is pointless speculation.

You mention a grand total of 3 players here – Zwet, Drippereth and Edge. Which of them do you believe is scum based on your extensive discussion?

Your play is passive and generally content light. I’m trying to decide if that is scum-blending or just bad Town play

.

Ok, going into the end of the Day –

Katsuki and rewq are likely scum.

There is likely at least 1 and perhaps more scum swimming in the following lurker / non-contributor pool –

A2rude, Bv310, CES, jenniwren, Katy, Locke Lamora, zwet.

Don’t let them cruise through the game.

[MemoriaEsponia]

@bv310: Hello, it's been four days and you still have not posted any contents. Could you please start on that?

Actually, I'd like everyone not voting WeirdRa to tell me why they aren't.

I find WeirdRa to be slightly scummy, but I do not think he is the best lynch for today. Right now, both heads prefer Katsuki and rewq455 for the lynch.

Also, you haven't explained why you think WeirdRa is the best lynch for today. Please give us reasons why you think WeirdRa is the best lynch for today.

At this rate I get the feeling that there will be a no-lynch day-1 which is never a good thing.

Why are you so concern about a no-lynch today? Large bandwagons on multiple people are very common and many people suspect both gandalf5166 and WeirdRa. You are paranoid.

However improbable it is, someone can slip. Someone can accidentally say something that a town member would not know. Waiting is the only way to make people slip.

And how exactly would this properly answer LynchMePls's question? I see nothing from this explanation that indicates that we can tell the difference between a scum goon and a scum PR this early in the game, especially without claims. Also, you say that waiting is the only way we can cause scum to slip. What about pressuring them for scummy actions? Pressuring is a great way for scums to slip and get lynched for a scum slip.

[MemoriaEsponia]

Attention WierdRa

-

Both of the heads have talked it over. If you are Town you had best claim in the next hour or so. Because dragging out the claiming process any farther does not do Town any good.

Consider this offical notice of incoming hammer.

Claim now or forever hold your piece.