Newbie 1012 - Game over

[raymondkurayami]

Unvote

no point voting someone with no evidence against him

[Dickov]

@Bhavit

If you are voted because you have a similar avatar to Shadow Dancer, it's a stupid reason and is acceptable in a RANDOM voting stage.

Read what Shadow Dancer said. He said that

waggoning an SE seems like a good idea to start D1

. Note that he did not say he was merely voting for an SE, he mentioned further that it was a

good idea

and a

good idea to

wagon

to add.

My concern is that he disguised a tactical

informed

decision with that of a seemingly random one. Guess who answers the call to arms on his wagon conveniently? Another SE.

In any case, you seem to be defending him, what do you mean he "gave a reason for being the lunar wolf..."? Anyone can see that he voted "to be the alpha wolf"... do you however see the underlying assumptions behind that decision?

[bhavitgoyal]

@Bhavit

If you are voted because you have a similar avatar to Shadow Dancer, it's a stupid reason and is acceptable in a RANDOM voting stage.

Read what Shadow Dancer said. He said that

waggoning an SE seems like a good idea to start D1

. Note that he did not say he was merely voting for an SE, he mentioned further that it was a

good idea

and a

good idea to

wagon

to add.

My concern is that he disguised a tactical

informed

decision with that of a seemingly random one. Guess who answers the call to arms on his wagon conveniently? Another SE.

In any case, you seem to be defending him, what do you mean he "gave a reason for being the lunar wolf..."? Anyone can see that he voted "to be the alpha wolf"... do you however see the underlying assumptions behind that decision?

I think when he said that wagonning a SE seems a good idea, it was RVS. And he said this in a joking way.

Sorry, I mistook alpha to be lunar.

[bhavitgoyal]

And where there was enough discussion, he changed his vote to a more reasonable one.

[Excedrin]

Vote Count

raymondkurayami (3): Enigma, bhavitgoyal, nameloc1986
Dickov (2): silverbullet999, Shadow Dancer

not voting: raymondkurayami, Lollero, KoreanWonderBoy, Dickov
alive: 9 majority: 5
D1 Deadline: AD 2010-10-05 04:06:00.000 PM (Tue) Pacific Daylight Time

[silverbullet999]

Well a few things
I'll agree I've been... well not lurking but not very present in this game.
logging in a day later to see 3 pages (or whatever it was) worth of posts blew my mind
I'll attempt (and should be successful) at making at least one post a day.
However I just got an internship
Thus if it's wanted or deemed necesary, I will replace.

-Dickov

Think about it, if I was indeed the mafia, would I intentionally draw so much attention to myself during the lynching stage when the chance of a mislych is 77.78%? The only justification for the action is an appeal to ignorance which you may choose to accept or ignore.

I don't really like these types of comments. Your basically saying, would I really make such a dumb move as mafia, as a way to "show" your innocence. You could be mafia and have made a bad move, and you are now just saying this to cover your mistake.

-Ray
I also agree with name, that post just seems to be an attempt to deflect suspicion off of you. Is it possible that one of the lurkers (including myself) is scum? Sure
Is it possible we are all town? That's true too.
A good move... that you didn't do is... hey these three are lurking in my mind, so I'm going to ask them questions (put pressure) on them and see what my read on them goes.

Also
UNVOTE:
As I'm not sure who I suspect most right now.

Preview Edit
-Ray

To myself, it didn't really look like a scumslip so I wasn't afraid to speak my mind. If I was mafia, I would have definitely not said that. I would have thought over a few times before I said that if I was mafia, as it would make me look as though I am now. I have had a little past experience in mafia, so I'm not 100% noob.

Again I do not like the, I'm not stupid enough to make a bad move as mafia. I don't like this excuse one bit.

-Bhavit

That is a very nice point but we cant accuse them of lurking just yet. But still I think there are high chances of one being a mafia or even two. I would like to see Lollero post because he hasnt posted after the game began that is a really bad thing for town. If he does not post today, he should be sent a prod.

If this is so... I again ask you the same thing, Why aren't you asking questions for them to answer when they get back?

[bhavitgoyal]

-Bhavit

That is a very nice point but we cant accuse them of lurking just yet. But still I think there are high chances of one being a mafia or even two. I would like to see Lollero post because he hasnt posted after the game began that is a really bad thing for town. If he does not post today, he should be sent a prod.

If this is so... I again ask you the same thing, Why aren't you asking questions for them to answer when they get back?

I am waiting for them to post first. Then asking questions would be better. Because they would have gone through the thread.

[silverbullet999]

-Bhavit

I am waiting for them to post first. Then asking questions would be better. Because they would have gone through the thread.

What's the difference if they read the thread and answer your questions... or read the thread... then you ask your questions... and they eventually answer?
This is especially disturbing as you feel strongly (you believe that there's a high chance) that one of us 3 mentioned were scum.
I mean I was on the list, and I've read the thread. So why aren't you pressuring me?

[Dickov]

You may dislike the statement but you can't disclaim the truth of it.

With two mafia against seven townsfolk, mafia would do well to remain low key; occasionally throw accusations here and there and generally thrive in the shadows while the Townsfolks begin the rape of each other in the name of "scumhunting". Even without intending to, Raymond has been accused of providing a "scumslip", I have been accused of bringing you to L-1 and Bhavit has yet to fully explain to me satisfactorily the inconsistency in his wagoning with Enigma. On the surface of it, all three of us are doing a good job of biting the bullet for the mafia.

Granted, any of the three of us could ACTUALLY be mafia and justify our accusations/votes but what are the chances of that happening? I just cannot fathom real mafia actually taking the risk to hammer on day 1 and get lynched on day 2 which is why my defence of an appeal to ignorance holds water. Sure you can lambast me for hiding behind the veil of ignorance or you can credit me with quickly learning how the game should be played and bringing possible threats into the light despite an initial mistake.

You as an SE should know that a 1 town - 1 mafia trade will

always

be a pro-town exchange, would I (if I were mafia) undertake that on the first day?

Does Mafia really need to do much more on day 1? From my basic understanding of the game, Mafia is more likely to be a active lurker (i.e. Enigma and Shadow Dancer) as opposed to an inactive one (lollero, Koreanwonderboy and yourself). You've unvoted me and I'm grateful for that, but who do you suspect most right now? Care to share?

[bhavitgoyal]

Tell me why should I ask them questions if I have no evidence against them yet. I would like to see their analysis on the thread and if I found something scummy, then I would start pressurising them. And about you I havent found something suspicious yet.

[nameloc1986]

@Dickov With 9 players in the game there is a 33% chance that one of the mafia is one of y'all that has already been accused. It may not seem like much to go on right now, but it's ONLY day 2 (i think). We can always retract our vote. So I don't feel like we're taking a risk at all. We're just trying to provoke discussion. My vote still stands.

[silverbullet999]

-Bhav

Tell me why should I ask them questions if I have no evidence against them yet. I would like to see their analysis on the thread and if I found something scummy, then I would start pressurising them. And about you I havent found something suspicious yet.

If this is the case... then why honorable Bhavin... did you say this.

But still I think there are high chances of one being a mafia or even two.

What caused you to see a high chance that one of them are mafia?

-Dickov

You as an SE should know that a 1 town - 1 mafia trade will always be a pro-town exchange, would I (if I were mafia) undertake that on the first day?

Oh traitorous Dickov.. You rebuke the point by saying the same thing. That if you were mafia, you would be smarter than to do what you had done. There is no proving this thus it holds no water.
It's as if I posted hey all I'm scum.
And then said, I can't be scum, If I was scum I wouldn't be stupid enough to lead my own lynch thus I'm town.
I mean with your thinking, any scum slip shouldn't be taken at all as the person who is scum would play perfectly and not leave any form of slip and not have any form of suspicion cast on him/her.

You've unvoted me and I'm grateful for that, but who do you suspect most right now? Care to share?

Jumping between you bhav and ray for the moment.

[nameloc1986]

silver, why are you so adamant that bhavit and raymond need to ask the "lurkers" questions, when you yourself haven't asked a single question of them? You seem to be riding bhavit a little hard for this. Why? It's just his own strategy! Granted, I'm not trying to defend him because he could be scum, but I don't see the difference in asking questions of them when they have yet to post! What questions should we be asking them? I'd like to see them post first, then see if they back away from the game again before calling them "lurkers". Some of them might just be busy and haven't had a chance to post yet. I believe (until they do something suspicious) that they are equally likely to be scum as they are townie.

[silverbullet999]

silver, why are you so adamant that bhavit and raymond need to ask the "lurkers" questions, when you yourself haven't asked a single question of them? You seem to be riding bhavit a little hard for this. Why? It's just his own strategy! Granted, I'm not trying to defend him because he could be scum, but I don't see the difference in asking questions of them when they have yet to post! What questions should we be asking them? I'd like to see them post first, then see if they back away from the game again before calling them "lurkers". Some of them might just be busy and haven't had a chance to post yet. I believe (until they do something suspicious) that they are equally likely to be scum as they are townie.

You most noble name are missing my point.
Ray and Bhav have both suggested that there's scum within the lurkers. Bhav says he feels there's a high chance of it. Ray mentions it saying hey... these three have been lurking... 3 lurkers.. and we need 2 scum...
They have both basically said... hmm I feel that they are scum... and done nothing about it.
It's as if I said hey name... I think your scum... and then did nothing afterward.
Something makes someone feel that someone is scummy, so I ask them what occurred for that to occur.
Get the point?

What in the world does me not having asked the lurkers anything at all have to do with my questions? Have I stated I agree I think the lurkers are scum? Could you quote where this magic Idea came from?

Hope you get the picture, and this does come off a bit as being defensive bud.. when you yourself criticized ray for even pointing the lurkers out in the first place.

[nameloc1986]

I get what your saying somewhat, I was just a little confused why you were asking them to ask questions of the lurkers when you yourself weren't. It seemed a little hypocritical to me at the moment, but now I sorta get it. I also wasn't criticizing you for criticizing ray (I myself did the same thing) I was just wondering about your intentions. At least that's a little clearer to me now....

[KoreanWonderBoy]

Mod, requesting replacement. I'm really sorry, I'm getting really bogged down with school and work and illness. Sorry

[Dickov]

@Dickov With 9 players in the game there is a 33% chance that one of the mafia is one of y'all that has already been accused. It may not seem like much to go on right now, but it's ONLY day 2 (i think). We can always retract our vote. So I don't feel like we're taking a risk at all. We're just trying to provoke discussion. My vote still stands.

__

2 mafia

_ = 22.22% chance of being lynched as mafia =/= 33% as you mentioned.
9 townsfolk

@Silverbullet999
I merely repeated myself because I felt you didn't understand the gist of what I'm saying.

I do however understand the danger in my logic as I realized it assumes the mafia play a perfect game when this often is far from the truth.

I merely identified the logical behavioral norm of a mafiosi at this stage and phase of the game, backed up my theory with odds and explained the detraction from the path most commonly taken. It may sound suspicious for me to use

argumentum ad ignoratium

but it's the truth (I understand "truth" varies from person to person in this game) Should I lie about it or fail to address it by ignoring it, the matter will surely return to haunt me in later days.

[bhavitgoyal]

-Bhav

Tell me why should I ask them questions if I have no evidence against them yet. I would like to see their analysis on the thread and if I found something scummy, then I would start pressurising them. And about you I havent found something suspicious yet.

If this is the case... then why honorable Bhavin... did you say this.

But still I think there are high chances of one being a mafia or even two.

What caused you to see a high chance that one of them are mafia?

When I said about high chances I meant to say that there are chances that one of them is mafia i.e it could be possible that one of them is mafia not necessary that one of them will be. Until I have some interaction with them, I wont post questions. Because I really want to see what they have to say about the thread.

[nameloc1986]

@Dickov With 9 players in the game there is a 33% chance that one of the mafia is one of y'all that has already been accused. It may not seem like much to go on right now, but it's ONLY day 2 (i think). We can always retract our vote. So I don't feel like we're taking a risk at all. We're just trying to provoke discussion. My vote still stands.

__

2 mafia

_ = 22.22% chance of being lynched as mafia =/= 33% as you mentioned.
9 townsfolk

I wasn't talking about the probably one person is a mafia, I was talking about the possibility that one of you three is mafia. But I made an error in calculation anyway (coming from the math major of all people)

[Excedrin]

Vote Count

raymondkurayami (3): Enigma, bhavitgoyal, nameloc1986
Dickov (1): Shadow Dancer

not voting: raymondkurayami, andrew94, Rockerboo, Dickov, silverbullet999
alive: 9 majority: 5
D1 Deadline: AD 2010-10-05 04:06:00.000 PM (Tue) Pacific Daylight Time

andrew94 replaces Lollero.
Rockerboo replaces KoreanWonderBoy

[Dickov]

-Bhav

Tell me why should I ask them questions if I have no evidence against them yet. I would like to see their analysis on the thread and if I found something scummy, then I would start pressurising them. And about you I havent found something suspicious yet.

If this is the case... then why honorable Bhavin... did you say this.

But still I think there are high chances of one being a mafia or even two.

What caused you to see a high chance that one of them are mafia?

When I said about high chances I meant to say that there are chances that one of them is mafia i.e it could be possible that one of them is mafia not necessary that one of them will be. Until I have some interaction with them, I wont post questions. Because I really want to see what they have to say about the thread.

That's a moot point. It's like me saying there's a high chance you could be mafia although this does not necessarily mean you are the mafia. What silverbullet (and probably me) want to see are the reasons

why

you suspect them.

The whole game you've been sitting on your arse waiting for a "slip" from other players makes me feel that you're on the defensive and a bit guarded from imposing too much of your personality into the game lest you be caught out. That is

why

I suspect you to be mafia.

It doesn't help town or even the game itself to go "

this guy is weird, that guy is weird

" without following up on anything. Finding suspicions in other people often have a sliver of basic evidence and a lot of hunch mindset. I want to see that sliver from you. It's not an excuse to say "I don't want to follow up without enough evidence" because if you don't have enough evidence, why

publicly

suspect someone then?

[bhavitgoyal]

Basically, I am not suspecting them. I am saying that until they post, the town would know nothing about them which is really bad but now the replacements have been done so I hope they will post soon.

[silverbullet999]

-Dickov

I do however understand the danger in my logic as I realized it assumes the mafia play a perfect game when this often is far from the truth.

Would you agree then that the defense (at best) holds very little water?

-Bhav

Basically, I am not suspecting them. I am saying that until they post, the town would know nothing about them which is really bad but now the replacements have been done so I hope they will post soon.

This... is a weak... retort... that I do not like.

VOTE: bhav

[andrew94]

hi reading

[bhavitgoyal]

Hi!