Newbie 1012 - Game over

[Dickov]

You may have noticed it in #60 BhavitGoyal but let me break down your statement in #138

I am accusing you of bandwaggoning Enigma on two occasions
In post #138, your defence to bandwaggoning Enigma's vote on RaymondKurayami is a mere "co-incidence" and a byproduct of your failure to take notice of an "obvious scumslip"

Maybe it didn't cross your mind but I've observed that you have wagoned in this game and more importantly, twice you've wagonned off Enigma. Firstly you voted for me shortly after he did and after Enigma posted his suspicions about Raymond and his "scumslip" you quickly jumped ship too. It's insufficient to launch a concrete scumhunt against you but consider yourself fingered for a more solid reason this time.

It was a mere coincidence

. I voted for you earlier but he posted it earlier.
And

about the Raymond incident, it was foolish of me not to notice the obvious scumslip

. Maybe I need to be careful with these statements next time.

From what you have stated, it can only mean to me that you are saying that the scumslip had no part to play in your decision to wagon with Enigma (Post #62). According to what you have said, it's a

mere coincidence

that you wagonned. Post #62, Post #131, Post #142, Post #146 however all evidence that you had prior knowledge of a "scumslip" and that your decision to wagon may not have been based purely on

mere coincidence

.

Post #138 is key here because in post #138, you're telling me that a defence to you wagonning with Enigma was that you didn't realize the scumslip in aligning your vote with him but in everything else that you post, it seems to scream to me that you had knowledge of the "scumslip" and that you

retracted

your statement regarding co-incidence because

a) it no longer suits you to have a persona that you really are a mere bandwagon hopper
b) You committed a slip yourself and you're trying to cover up the inconsistency (albeit poorly)

Every post that you provide to me, about how you really knew about the scumslip and didn't wagon with Enigma for wagonning's sake just throws you deeper into the mire because of the Achilles Heel in Post #138 where you claimed to have wagonned because of coincidence.

Fuck, I'm confused.

[bhavitgoyal]

The mere coincidence I am using for is to voting you not Raymond

When Enigma talked about the scumslip, I noticed it and then came to know about the scumslip. From then on I am clear that it is a scumslip.

[nameloc1986]

@Enigma

I'm still not sure if I agree with the whole claiming VT will increase the scum's chances of sniping a PR. Scum knows who all the townies are but doesn't know which ones are PRs. Why should they believe a VT's claim to be VT, when they are just as likely to be a PR claiming VT. Again, just cause someone claims VT doesn't mean they are VT. Scum won't know which ones are VT and which ones are PR! But agree to disagree I guess.

I'm not sure what to make of the whole Dickov/bhavitgoyal back and forth! It's likely that one of them is scum but just as likely that they could be townies making a mistake. Oh well. I can't see anything they have done so far that greater evidence than what we have on raymond.

[Shadow Dancer]

Damn, you are hyperactive I'll post later this evening.

[nameloc1986]

who me?

[Excedrin]

Vote Count

raymondkurayami (3): Enigma, bhavitgoyal, nameloc1986
Dickov (2): silverbullet999, Shadow Dancer
silverbullet999 (1): raymondkurayami

not voting: Lollero, KoreanWonderBoy, Dickov
alive: 9 majority: 5
D1 Deadline: AD 2010-10-05 04:06:00.000 PM (Tue) Pacific Daylight Time

[Shadow Dancer]

I've seen it done that way on other mafia games on other forums. If bugs people to much for me to say "IGMEOY" I won't do it.

IGMEOY Shadow Dancer (just kidding )

You should not do things just because you see some one else do it. Especially not if you do not understand why the other one is doping it or even do not know if the other one is doing it for any reasonable reason (learning from others is not trying to copy them but understand what they do and decide if it fits you and is useful in a given situation you encounter).

The point is: Telling some one "OGMEOY" is a way of pressuring some one by telling him/her "I have an eye on

you

and specifically you and any slip you might commit won't escape my attention."
First of that attempt obviously hardly works always on every one in every situation, different people tend to handle different kinds of stress in different ways.
And second telling some one straight to the face that you have him under observation might defeat the purpose by increasing that players level of attention towards his/her own play and thus exactly prevent the slip you were looking for.
In a nutshell telling virtually any one in a game "IGMEOY" basically defeats any purpose you might have for doing so and in general everything you do in a mafia game should fit a purpose (i.e. finding scum as town, covering your tracks as scum) and it is also assumed by other players that you have intentions for the things you do (though you might not even be fully aware of your own intentions).

[Shadow Dancer]

Let me ask you guys, how much real evidence is there against me? Or is it just assumptions. I know this game is based of fos' but picking me is just bad.

And also, if I was in a l-1 situation, I would just panic, like I usually do.

Wont be able to post for a few hours

"DON'T PANIC!"

Some one should write "The Hitchhikers Guide to Mafia"

Of course this game is about assumptions. Your goal is to make better assumptions and convince other players of your ones.

[Shadow Dancer]

Well, if you lynch me, then its your loss, which makes it easier for the Mafia to win. I don't want to lose on my first game. I suggest we discuss this day for as long as needed to get a confirmed scum.

actually... even if your town it's not necessarily a loss (unless it's MYLO or LYLO) as you being confirmed townie gives us info. Instead of worrying about what other people are thinking of you and trying to prove your townie... try to find a scum.

Not a bad point. As (vanilla) townie you are for the most part one thing: expandable. Use that to your advantage, treat it as your most precious ability, if the situation calls for it. If you can lure out scum in some way by sacrificing yourself, you are playing to your wi condition and can prove very useful to town. (Do

not

treat this in any imaginable way as an invitation to encounter in any kind of devil-may-care suicide play.)
Always keep in mind: You still win with your faction, even if you are dead at the end of the game. Nobody is really harmed or killed in a game of mafia. And it is always just business.

[Shadow Dancer]

Let me ask you guys, how much real evidence is there against me? Or is it just assumptions. I know this game is based of fos' but picking me is just bad.

No eal evidence can ever be found in this game. All you could find is little mistakes. And you have done one already. We have a strong evidence only against you. So theres a chance for you to be a mafia.

Don't be carried away by the idea of singular scumtells. Those are defective and risky indicators most of the time. Always look at apparent slips in the context of that players overall play, find connections and behaviour patterns and always go by both theories that it was town play/a town slip or scum play/a scum slip to find out which is the more convincing and more likely explanation. Minimizing your own errors may prevent all of us from following a wrong track.

[nameloc1986]

You should not do things just because you see some one else do it. Especially not if you do not understand why the other one is doping it or even do not know if the other one is doing it for any reasonable reason (learning from others is not trying to copy them but understand what they do and decide if it fits you and is useful in a given situation you encounter).

The point is: Telling some one "OGMEOY" is a way of pressuring some one by telling him/her "I have an eye on

you

and specifically you and any slip you might commit won't escape my attention."
First of that attempt obviously hardly works always on every one in every situation, different people tend to handle different kinds of stress in different ways.
And second telling some one straight to the face that you have him under observation might defeat the purpose by increasing that players level of attention towards his/her own play and thus exactly prevent the slip you were looking for.
In a nutshell telling virtually any one in a game "IGMEOY" basically defeats any purpose you might have for doing so and in general everything you do in a mafia game should fit a purpose (i.e. finding scum as town, covering your tracks as scum) and it is also assumed by other players that you have intentions for the things you do (though you might not even be fully aware of your own intentions).

Alright, I'm going to say this and leave it at this because I can see this turning into a irrelevant debate. First of all, I WASN'T just copying someone else. I knew exactly what it meant. Apparently, in other games I've seen it was used a little differently. It WASN'T to tell them "I have my eye on ONLY you" or that "you're one of my top suspects". It was merely used to say "you seem suspicious, I gonna keep watching you to see if you do anything else suspicious". That's it. But since here it apparently means something else I'm going to refrain from using it. I'm going to stop here and keep the focus on the game.

[Shadow Dancer]

Shadow Dancer

You said "Waggoning an SE seems like a good idea" but there are two SE's in this game why did you choose Silverbullet over Enigma?

Look at silver's avatar. Done? OK. So now look at my avatar. Also done? Now read my comment on that vote again. Also done? If you still don't get it, activate your sense of humour now.

Co-incidentally, Raymond myself and more importantly Enigma (as well) voted for Silverbullet on your wagon, convenient correlation or mere coincidence?

Do you have a point here? What do

I

have to do with others jumping on "my waggon" and their reasons to do so? I am sure you know your own reasons better than any on else at least.

You wanted to hear my justification for voting silverbullet? It's a poor reason but it's genuine OMGUS but now that I see the power of a vote, it's much too powerful to use on mere OMGUS reasons.

As it seems you saw at least the power of your vote to dicourage others from voting you...

I however would like to see your justification for

bhavit vs. ray looks strange... Definitely something to keep an exe on.

However,

unvote. vote dickov

is what is to do now.

Your post #59 was just bad in differnt ways that have been laid out to you. You haven't adressed that so far. I am generally unwilling to change my vote as long as a player I am currently voting is in some way or another reluctant to adress my comments in a way that I consider satifying and genuine.
I do not particularly like post #64, either, but I see that more as understandable newbie uncertainty right now.

[Shadow Dancer]

Alright, I'm going to say this and leave it at this because I can see this turning into a irrelevant debate. First of all, I WASN'T just copying someone else. I knew exactly what it meant. Apparently, in other games I've seen it was used a little differently. It WASN'T to tell them "I have my eye on ONLY you" or that "you're one of my top suspects". It was merely used to say "you seem suspicious, I gonna keep watching you to see if you do anything else suspicious". That's it. But since here it apparently means something else I'm going to refrain from using it. I'm going to stop here and keep the focus on the game.

Again: The point is, no matter what your purpose on telling players "IGMEOY" is, any purpose is defeated by telling it to multiple or eve most players alike. Keep your eyes open, but focus your pressure.

[Shadow Dancer]

who me?

Not specifically. Was directed to (almost) every one.
Don't get me wrong, that is actually a really good thing and gives me good feeling about this game. Also it will prevent scum from getting an easy ride as lurkers.

[Shadow Dancer]

As you might have realized I prefer serial posts alot to huge WOT posts. Helps me to focus on one thought, post it and proceed instead of getting lost in a WOT...

Sorry for mainly posting theory stuff today, but I hope it will help.
There are defintely some pretty interesting and intense discussions going on in the meantime that require further analysis.
I might have little time until Sunday though, so do not expect much deep thought of me the next two days.

[KoreanWonderBoy]

Oh my god guys I'm so sorry guys I've been sick I'll try my hardest to catch up within the next day.

[Dickov]

I noticed the wolf straight away but I don't buy it.

Firstly, during the random voting stage, it's the tendency for players to try and weaken the justification for their voting as much as they can in order to reduce the level of attention on them. If it looks like they have an agenda on other players, people might question them instead.

Take for instance, Silver justified his vote by highlighting the male anatomy in my user name.
Nameloc's initial vote was because of a small avatar.
Enigma's initial vote concerned a ludicrous improbability.
My vote was OMGUS (although it immediately l-1ed him)

Your

vote however disclaimed its

randomness

in the random voting stage by virtue of you including further justification for your reason to vote "against an SE player" and further suspicion is cast when the OTHER SE player rides along your vote.

That is why I have shortlisted you

and

Enigma

along with Bhavit in my circle of terror. However, if either one of you can be cleared of suspicion in my mind, I will herald it as an anomaly and continue discussions without the idea that

both

of you are mafia.

Regarding #59, all I can ask of you is that you don't apply the standard of a seasoned player to every player just because you are one. I genuinely did not at that point understand what my voting for silverbullet would result in and had I known, I wouldn't have done it.

Think about it, if I was indeed the mafia, would I intentionally draw so much attention to myself during the lynching stage when the chance of a mislych is 77.78%? The only justification for the action is an appeal to ignorance which you may choose to accept or ignore.

Furthermore, keeping your vote on me after I have attacked you shows to me that you may be uncomfortable with the level of attention you're receiving from me (and I don't blame you) and it also shows that instead of using your vote to hunt mafia, you are instead using it as a defence (similar to my OMGUS voting initially) which shows perhaps that you may already know who the mafia is and why it would be

detrimental

to hunt them.

Far fetched reasoning surely, but you can't blame me for trying.

[raymondkurayami]

I'm thinking, would the mafia take the risk to lurk? It could be a kind of WIFOM on their part. So who are the lurkers?.

Lollero, two posts, answering the 3 questions and confirming.

KoreanWonderBoy, with 4 posts, with the 3rd post saying he wont be able to post for a while, but not explain why until his 4th post.

Silverbullet999, with 4 posts, kind of active lurking, not providing helpful information to the town.

3 lurkers 2 maf. What are the chances of one of the lurkers being mafia?

[nameloc1986]

I'm thinking, would the mafia take the risk to lurk? It could be a kind of WIFOM on their part. So who are the lurkers?.

Lollero, two posts, answering the 3 questions and confirming.

KoreanWonderBoy, with 4 posts, with the 3rd post saying he wont be able to post for a while, but not explain why until his 4th post.

Silverbullet999, with 4 posts, kind of active lurking, not providing helpful information to the town.

3 lurkers 2 maf. What are the chances of one of the lurkers being mafia?

It's only been what, 2 days? Don't we have 3 weeks to vote? I don't think we should point out the lurkers just yet. Afterall, they may be justified (KWB said he was sick). If after a week they still haven't posted much, then maybe we can look at them further. But the problem with lurkers is that there's never enough to suspect them with! Just give it time, they'll post.

Now considering that your one of my suspects right now, this seems like an attempt to get the attention away from you (which you still haven't explained your scumslip).

Nothing much else to say, I'll give this thread another read through later.

[Excedrin]

Vote Count

raymondkurayami (3): Enigma, bhavitgoyal, nameloc1986
Dickov (2): silverbullet999, Shadow Dancer
silverbullet999 (1): raymondkurayami

not voting: Lollero, KoreanWonderBoy, Dickov
alive: 9 majority: 5
D1 Deadline: AD 2010-10-05 04:06:00.000 PM (Tue) Pacific Daylight Time

[raymondkurayami]

To myself, it didn't really look like a scumslip so I wasn't afraid to speak my mind. If I was mafia, I would have definitely not said that. I would have thought over a few times before I said that if I was mafia, as it would make me look as though I am now. I have had a little past experience in mafia, so I'm not 100% noob.

[Dickov]

I know exactly how you feel dude. To me as well it's not a "scumslip". You just asked a rhetorical question and Enigma jumped on it like a vulture and the next thing you know Bhavit and Nameloc and the whole shang-bang of people who misunderstand rhetoric suddenly point the finger at you.

It's good though because currently because of an "imagined" scumslip, you're leading the lynch board. To me personally, I wouldn't go as far as to say you're not mafia, but you definitely don't deserve the fingers and fists of love from others because of your "scumslip".

Inb4DickovisbuddyingwithRaymondthereforehemustbemafia

[bhavitgoyal]

I'm thinking, would the mafia take the risk to lurk? It could be a kind of WIFOM on their part. So who are the lurkers?.

Lollero, two posts, answering the 3 questions and confirming.

KoreanWonderBoy, with 4 posts, with the 3rd post saying he wont be able to post for a while, but not explain why until his 4th post.

Silverbullet999, with 4 posts, kind of active lurking, not providing helpful information to the town.

3 lurkers 2 maf. What are the chances of one of the lurkers being mafia?

That is a very nice point but we cant accuse them of lurking just yet. But still I think there are high chances of one being a mafia or even two. I would like to see Lollero post because he hasnt posted after the game began that is a really bad thing for town. If he does not post today, he should be sent a prod.

[bhavitgoyal]

I noticed the wolf straight away but I don't buy it.

Firstly, during the random voting stage, it's the tendency for players to try and weaken the justification for their voting as much as they can in order to reduce the level of attention on them. If it looks like they have an agenda on other players, people might question them instead.

Take for instance, Silver justified his vote by highlighting the male anatomy in my user name.
Nameloc's initial vote was because of a small avatar.
Enigma's initial vote concerned a ludicrous improbability.
My vote was OMGUS (although it immediately l-1ed him)

Dont blame him, he also gave a reason for being the other lunar wolf of the game. And then you three jumped in voting Silver

[bhavitgoyal]

To myself, it didn't really look like a scumslip so I wasn't afraid to speak my mind. If I was mafia, I would have definitely not said that. I would have thought over a few times before I said that if I was mafia, as it would make me look as though I am now. I have had a little past experience in mafia, so I'm not 100% noob.

Instead of using

Would I really be that stupid to do that?

you could have used

Would anybody be that stupid to do that?

It makes more sense, doesnt it. Still it could be a newbie mistake. But remember

I have still got my vote on you.

and I am not going to change it until I find someone else more suspicious or You prove yourself innocent