Mini 1044: Lie to Me Mafia - Game Over

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Tacky, you have got to be freakin' kidding, right?!

What distinguishes town from mafia? I am not pushing you as the lynch of the day. I think you are scum. But, I have not laid out my case on you. I think you are scum more because of TAZARO than because of you.

But, your comments are not as golden-boy as you make them. My comment on you was to show that you interact with him, spending a lot of commentary on him. That is a reasonable sign that you are in cahoots with him. But, mostly based on everything else he said, and has done.

I think you were most likely calling it out (as a distancing method) when you voted him and called him scum. When he flips scum, it may or may not entirely reflect on you.

This statement of yours really bothers me.

"although your reasons to vote tazaro are acceptable (and therefore a null-tell)..."

I know that you think you explained it in ISO post #11. Acceptable reasons are not by default, NULL. When you say, "and THEREFORE a null-tell" you are indicating that acceptable reasons are by default NULL. On the contrary, acceptable reasons are worthy of consideration. They may lead to unraveling the play of a mafia character. But, for you to brush off an ACCEPTABLE reason as "therefore" NULL, is suspicious. But, why hint that reasons against TAZARO are NULL, when they are acceptable reasons? I think it is because you do not want acceptable reasons to be evaluated further on him. You want to brush them off of him.

TAZ ISO Post 12 is defending you. He was trying sweep away the reason with little effort. He was gesturing that you should not be considered mafia.

TAZ ISO Post 13 really is making a statement that you should be seen as the innocent one, and guilty should be found on you. He is happy to deter the steam from you more. Why is he so quick to defend you? What real reason does he have?

TAZ ISO Post 14 he uses the phrase, "either way you look at it". That phrase really bothers me. It is essentially saying, you have to see it this way. And you again are implied as the innocent one. What reason does he have to defend you? You did nothing to merit KNOWN TOWN status. He just does not want you to be the focus.

TAZ ISO Post 15 he focuses on me. He says my vote in particular is terrible. He rants and stomps his feet. Much like he is doing now about himself. He again says "either way you look at it". Attempting to force his view as the only options of seeing. And, Why the heck do I need to UNVOTE? WHY? WHY? WHY? No one else needs to be pressured to UNVOTE you. He never explained why I needed to UNVOTE. He never explained why MY VOTE needed to be in a BETTER PLACE. The only focus he had was to save your bacon.

He makes you appear scummy. ISO POST 15 is the worst possible defense of you. That is one huge mistake. This is the fourth post he defends you in. Never once stating why you are worthy of such an honor. Why should he put his neck on the line for you? You have done him little favors up to this point. Yet, he is not focusing on finding scum, ONLY ON PROTECTING YOU. That is is sole focus up to that point.

Than we have TAZ ISO Post 17. You are right, it is not much by itself. But, you make your request in post #109 for everyone to state alignment. Cry me a river first suggested the idea in post #66. You made your claim in #71, which I thought was ridiculous, and we resolved that. A few others made alignment claims. So, he had plenty of examples, suggestions, and ether floating around. But, he waited to respond to your request. This is a very miner tell. I never gave it much credence. I am just saying, it is to appease you. And, he went through the loving effort of addressing his claim to you. No one else at all cared to address it to you. It is subtle. But, it is not aloof from you.

Here are my questions for you?

(1) Why are you not bothered by the fact that he defends you without reason?
(2) Should he see you as his KNOWN town?
(3) Or, why else is he sticking his neck out for you?
(4) What 5 reasons do you think I deserve your vote?
(5) Why do you think TAZARO is innocent?
(6) Why did I need to be pressured to UNVOTE you?
(7) Why of all the people on you, was it better for me to UNVOTE rather than put the pressure on you for information?
(8) Why are you defending TAZARO so much now?

[Tasky]

Tacky, you have got to be freakin' kidding, right?!

My name is TASKY! try to spell it right, will ya? and no, I am absolutely not kidding.

"although your reasons to vote tazaro are acceptable (and therefore a null-tell)..."

I know that you think you explained it in ISO post #11. Acceptable reasons are not by default, NULL. When you say, "and THEREFORE a null-tell" you are indicating that acceptable reasons are by default NULL. On the contrary, acceptable reasons are worthy of consideration. They may lead to unraveling the play of a mafia character. But, for you to brush off an ACCEPTABLE reason as "therefore" NULL, is suspicious. But, why hint that reasons against TAZARO are NULL, when they are acceptable reasons? I think it is because you do not want acceptable reasons to be evaluated further on him. You want to brush them off of him.

you really don't get it, do you?
the argument was a classical "good-enough-for-first-few-pages-argument". it wasn't convincing, it was exactly the kind of argument people tend to use in the first phase of the day. scum as likely as town. therefore to me, that argument didn't tell anything about Robbnva alignment. the thing that

was

suspicious, however, was his last line, which is the kind of thing scum like to use to get a plausible deniability on their cases. so I voted him for it. it was, indeed, a weak vote, but it was the best I had at that moment. now, luckily enough, you have revealed yourself as much scummier than Robbnva, so I dropped that "case" (if you want to call it a case).
now one question from my side:
do really you think I would have attacked Robbnva differently (or not at all), if his original argument was against someone other than Tazaro? do you really think that case of mine against Robbnva was about Tazaro? if the answer is yes, lol.

But, your comments are not as golden-boy as you make them.

My comment on you was to show that you interact with him, spending a lot of commentary on him. That is a reasonable sign that you are in cahoots with him.

But, mostly based on everything else he said, and has done.

and my comment on you was to show that this is bullshit. you want to see a connection between me and Tazaro, therefore you see one.

(1) Why are you not bothered by the fact that he defends you without reason?
(2) Should he see you as his KNOWN town?
(3) Or, why else is he sticking his neck out for you?
(4) What 5 reasons do you think I deserve your vote?
(5) Why do you think TAZARO is innocent?
(6) Why did I need to be pressured to UNVOTE you?
(7) Why of all the people on you, was it better for me to UNVOTE rather than put the pressure on you for information?
(8) Why are you defending TAZARO so much now?

(1) I think the reason is that he saw me being lynched in another game when I was town, I couldn't see any other reason. I played one game only with tazaro, but he made me the same impression as here. as I already said, his general attitude/meta makes incredibly difficult to get a read on him. I'd rather have a vig kill him than policy lynch him for playing bad. we are in another game together, I won't say anything about content, since it's ongoing, but he acts in a similar way there and I'd just attribute it to his bad play
(2) actually I don't really care about his opinion.
(3) how am I supposed to know?
(4) you made a post, which was full of crap in order to try and discredit me. just look at it, I mentioned the word "Tazaro" 5 times, 2 of which were not even about him directly and you call it a "connection". now, that looks like a terrible confirmation bias to me.
and also calling a 20% ratio a "hyper-focus" is the same confirmation bias. you saw what you wanted to see, and that' scummy. if you were town, you would want to find out whether we are scum or not, you would not want to bring up crappy points. you would attack us with the things you think we deserve and not things which are obviously bullshit.
(5) Tazaro is 3/4 innocent in this moment to me. no more, no less.
(6) again, how am I supposed to know what tazaro's thinking?
(7) same as (6)
(8) huh? am I defending Tazaro? show me where please! all I am doing is calling you out on your fail-case.

[Tazaro]

Step back some, SoW, and consider that we (Tasky and I) have played together before, and the knowledge we have of each other by playing with each other in past games is reflected in this game. Why is this less believable than us being a scumpair?

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Taz, you have not sufficiently explained the necessity of pressuring me to UNVOTE. Why would a town member need to be pressured to UNVOTE another player by another town member?

On the other hand, if he were your partner in crime, it is understandable why you would demand I UNVOTE. But, if you have no behind the thread association with him within the context of this game, than you need to explain a pro-town reason for that necessitated pressure to UNVOTE.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Tasky, my spelling was accidental. I have spelt your name right so many times, you should not be offended. But, the mistake may be fitting in any case.

You defensive statements for TAZ are minor, but present. I have stated a logical and reasonable case on that. But, my point is that your minor interactions are consistent with TAZAROs major actions. He blatantly is sticking his neck out early for you. If your posts where just about what you said, they would be less likely to indicate much. But, in connection with the behavior of TAZ, they are consistent with the assumption that you are connected.

You have 2 reasons to vote for me. Rather poor reasons too. I was not attempting to discredit you based on your behavior solely. If you happened to be town, than TAZ really drew you into his ploy. But, you have not distanced yourself from him naturally. You have allowed yourself to have minor connections. So, I identified it. I did not make them up, you two made them together. I just pointed them out.

[Tasky]

Tasky, my spelling was accidental. I have spelt your name right so many times, you should not be offended. But, the mistake may be fitting in any case.

You defensive statements for TAZ are minor, but present. I have stated a logical and reasonable case on that. But, my point is that your minor interactions are consistent with TAZAROs major actions. He blatantly is sticking his neck out early for you. If your posts where just about what you said, they would be less likely to indicate much. But, in connection with the behavior of TAZ, they are consistent with the assumption that you are connected.

You have 2 reasons to vote for me. Rather poor reasons too. I was not attempting to discredit you based on your behavior solely. If you happened to be town, than TAZ really drew you into his ploy. But, you have not distanced yourself from him naturally. You have allowed yourself to have minor connections. So, I identified it. I did not make them up, you two made them together. I just pointed them out.

lol

[Robbnva]

Caution HUGE wall of text ahead

ok it looks like we have 2 different games going on.

Game 1 - Tasky and Tazaro vs Shephard, I am voting for tazaro also and tazaro has not responded or commented to my post - http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 0#p2507330

Game 2 - Everyone kind of doing their own thing, this game got clouded early by the day kill - which has basically halted the game (game 1 is still active)

personally I would like others in this game to comment on the cases by Tazaro/Tasky and the case by Shephard. TBH I have been out of town and busy studying for a test coming up I have not fully read what kind of case Shephard has made. The Tazaro/Tasky case to me is based soley on him attacking them.

my problem or thing I find weird is this. Tasky has already claimed he is part of the Lightman group, which 1. is WAY to early in the votes and 2. seems to be the safest thing to claim anyway cause who wants to lynch a Lightman group member.

Tazaro and Tasky do seem to be working together and the only reason I saw is that they have played together and know each other's playing style but why on day 1 would you try and team up with somebody, especially if you have no idea if they are scum.

if we take this friendship as a classic case of buddying let's look at the evidence.

Shepard votes Tasky cause he makes his lie detector declaration as "I am not mafia" which could come back to LD as true if he was a SK so to me the vote seems logical enough for a day 1 vote.

before tasky has even had a chance to respond to the vote by Shepard Tazaro posts this

SOW's vote IS terrible. In fact, he's my scumpick. Either way you look at it, SOW either played a crummy vote on Tasky due to being scum or needs to be pressured to take it off of Tasky. I for one see scumminess as a very viable possibility.

Shepherd of Wolves

- he forgot to put Vote so he does it in the very next post

The above quote was the beginning of what I call buddying. The vote from SOW on tasky was a good enough vote because in my mind i actually had the same thought about that "I am not mafia" comment. now later tasky changes and says he is alligned with town so fair enough.

Tazaro seems SO convinced that Tasky is town when there is no way in the world he would know that unless he was mafia.

now my case for voting Tazaro is a good one, and I want all you pro-town players to ask yourself the same question.

would you be worried about the results of the Lie Detector if you were not lying? As a pro-town player, would there be any reason why you would lie, especially if everyone is making the same declaration statement of "I am alligned with the town" ?

now Tazaro actually asks a very logical question in his post 19 - he asks Shep why he said so many declarations is bad as long as you don't lie. (personally I think so many declarations makes it harder for the Lie detector to choose because if everyone says it, it basically makes these statements worthless cause he would have to guess right)

now his next post - he says he is adding on to question 20. what he added on was "as long as you don't lie" which would have been good enough but he threw in the "you don't die after a lie detection right?" I personally feel he threw in that last part to cover himself, there was no reason to ask that last part to Shepard.

Tazaro in his post 21 "after I call him on it" says he was talking about the scenario of if it came back a lie would that person get lynched. (again, no need to ask that question if you are pro-town and you are not lying)

NOW when the day killer shows up he asks Tazaro if tasky is town alligned - he says NO (why would he be attacking the person who voted for tasky if he thought tasky was scum?)

Tazaro now says he is just a bad player when he is asked why he ignored Shepard's case on tazaro
Tazaro in his post 24 says he is playing different and not jumping on every scum tell he sees (if you are pro-town why would you not point out scum tells?)
25 & 26 basically says Shepard is attacking him
29 - says tunneling him is the reason I am keeping my vote on you (so it is no longer because he voted Tasky, but tunneling somebody you suspect is scum is not an issue so I see nothing wrong with Shepard tunneling Tazaro)
30 - comments on ZeroFang's comment about Shepard isn't really tunneling, said he did not see any other cases made except on him and tasky (which is actually true, shep has been on just those 2)
31 - a. he basically says he is not going to respond to Shepard's questions but proceeds to do so (b-f)
b. says Tasky's actions are Null
c. saying Shepard's vote on tasky is either a townie who is wrong(wait he told nacho tasky was scum) or Shephard is mafia and lying (if he thinks tasky is scum, why does he care the motivation of his voting for tasky or for voting for tazaro who defended him)
d. Tazaro says he doesn't like to ask questions and just votes when he thinks someone is suspicious (why would yo not ask questions to the people you suspect?
e. "I play games by winging it, scum hunting will work itself out" (really? this is a person who is alligned with town?)
f. this is the comment that they have played together before (well I played with Tasky before and you don't see me being his friend)
32. Tazaro says it is better to vote Shepard (but remember he told nacho that tasky is scum)
34 - WOW I AM MAD SO I WILL SAY SHEPARD IS SCUM
35. another comment that him and tasky has played together and their knowledge of each other is reflected in their play today

so the biggest question is did Tazaro lie to the day killer or does he really think tasky is not town.

IF he thinks tasky is not town

why is he not voting him, why is he defending him, why is he attacking the person who originally called Tasky out as scum?

Sorry for my Wall of text now I have a meeting to run to.

[Robbnva]

and with this my vote stays on tazaro, I think Tasky could be telling the truth about being with the Lightman group and tazaro was trying to buddy.

[Tazaro]

Tazaro, is Tasky town? Yes or no please.
Who are the scum who have voted for Tasky? Pick me two names.
Are you town-aligned?
Should I hold off on my shot, or should I take it based on responses to my questions?
Should I declare who I'm going to shoot before shooting them, to give them a chance to defend themselves? Why/Why not?

1. No
2. Zerofang, Shepherd of Wolves.
3. Yes.
4. Go for it. Shoot whomever is suspicious.
5. Declare who it'll be. More info from reactions is good.

That No should be I don't know, but it was Y/N

[Tazaro]

I.e., my Tasky-read is NOT town... But also is NOT mafia.

[Robbnva]

I.e., my Tasky-read is NOT town... But also is NOT mafia.

so than he is a SK?

[Espeonage]

He is saying his read is null.

[Nachomamma8]

Esp, how are those questions going?

And I'll get something up with content tomorrow.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

TAZ really did not have to answer NO without explanation. NACHOMAMMA did not say, do not give an explanation for your answer. So TAZ is revealing his knowledge.

[Espeonage]

Sorry forgot. Will get to those soon.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Everyone, we really need more interaction, discussion and the like. I think it is really laggy except for Me, Tasky, & Taz. At least for the last 2 or 3 days. And, there are people who have not contributed one wit.

[Robbnva]

I love how I post this huge long post about Tazaro and how he is probably mafia and

1. tazaro ignores it completely
2. nobody else mentions it

Hello is this thing on? can you guys hear me?

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

I am completely used to him ignoring me. I was not avoiding addressing your points more completely. I think they are evidently true. I did not catch the part were he said TASKY was NOT TOWN. We together have established enough reasons for DAY 1 to lynch him. And, to give TASKY serious consideration for DAY 2.

Now before TASKY goes pouting. If TAZARO does not show up as scum, the TASKY case is not strong enough. And, we should not lynch without dialogue within DAY 2 about the best person to die based on the than current knowledge.

Further, I think we need an UNOFFICIAL but ACCURATE count on alignment claims. I do not this everyone has claimed. I swear some people are needing to be replaced too. But, I know the mod is tracking that.

[Tasky]

here are all the quotes of players claiming alignment:

I am aligned with the town.

I am aligned with the town.

@Tasky and everyone else: I prefer this statement ^ It takes away 3rd party skepticism
I am aligned with the town.

I am aligned with the town.

I am town aligned

I am town aligned

I guess I should say this if you want me to, Tasky: I'm town aligned.

I am town aligned.

hey guys...replacing Ghostwriter here.

sorta been following the game, but need to do a reread tonight.

in the meantime if there's anything in particular you want let me know...

oh and I am town-aligned.

Are we saying we are town aligned in case there is a lie detector?

If so. I am town alligned

following players didn't:
Maddie
ZeroFang
jimfinn

as soon as you post the next time, I want an isolated alignment claim.
and, I'd like CryMeARiver, Tazaro and Robbnva to repeat their claim, as their wording isn't entirely clear.

[Robbnva]

How is my wording different?

But whatever

I am town alligned

[Robbnva]

I am town aligned

[Tazaro]

Tasky, here's the clear truth: I am town aligned.

[Robbnva]

Boy tazaro doesn't seem to have much to say and doesn't feel the need to defend himself on the very good case I made of him being scum.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Antihero has posted 28 (11%)
CryMeARiver has posted 8 (3%)
Espeonage has posted 30 (12%)
jimfinn has posted 12 (5%)
Madie has posted 2 (2%)
Nachomamma8 has posted 21 (8%)
Narsis has posted 6 (2%)
Robbnva has posted 27 (11%)
Shepher_of_Wolves has posted 37 (15%)
Tasky has posted 18 (7%)
Tazaro has posted 39 (16%)
ZeroFang has posted 11 (4%)

The total posts including this one are 248 (100%).
1/12 is 8%.

Percentage is not the only factor of importance. More importantly is content. But, how can 2 posts contribute any content. I know that Madie has claimed V/LA, but at a certain point, he just needs to join another game, when he is finished.

ZeroFang, jimfinn, Narsis, CryMeARiver, and Madie need to play the game or get replaced. Those 5 players represent 42% of the game. And they are all contributing 12 posts or less. That is ridiculous. And too many of the players who are posting are really just being non-helpful. I can see if 1 or 2 players are lame at the game, but not 5 and more.

I have posted plenty of content for people to comment on. But, I am out numbered in my posts by Tazaro. AND, to no ones surprise, his massive quantity of posting is NON-TOWN in nature.

Who better to lynch than Tazaro? I would even welcome a DAY kill by Nachomamma on TAZARO. But, since I do not have control of that, I advocate for his lynch. For Day 1, no one deserves it more than him. I would prefer players to comment before his kill. But, TAZARO has nothing PRO-TOWN to say. So, in the end, he should die for DAY 1.

START PLAYING THE GAME EVERYONE

[Antihero]

Why does "playing the game" involve mass tunneling?

I'm asking again, could someone

please

read jimfinn (a few pages ago) and tell me how it's not scummy.