Mini 1035 - Devil's Town - GAME OVER

[Incognito]

Actually, can someone just unvote Zodiark please? He's at L-1 right now, and I don't think we're ready for that yet.

[PranaDevil]

Zodiark13 and TDC have been prodded.

[Untrod Tripod]

@LMP
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 53&t=14486
that's the only completed game I have since my return.

also, it means I find him slightly scummy. I have a slight lean towards scum for him.

[TDC]

Sorry, I'm kinda ill right now, but will try to post tomorrow. Although I'm mostly interested in Zod's next post anyway.

[Tazaro]

Actually, can someone just unvote Zodiark please? He's at L-1 right now, and I don't think we're ready for that yet.

Unvote

You think things are going to happen to make us ready?

[Incognito]

Thank you.

And possibly, yes. My main reason for wanting the unvote is to prevent a possible self-hammer in the event that he's actually scum. I want my thoughts down and a bit more discussion before having any kind of a lynch. I do think Zodiark has done some scummy stuff, but I've got a pool of about 4 people (him included) who are giving me conflicting reads, and I want to get in the game and get better reads on them before we move on with any kind of a lynch. I'm an in-the-moment kind of player.

[LimMePls]

I find it interesting that Taz was willing to unvote before asking Incognito why he wanted the unvote. Looks like buddying up to the new player.

You think things are going to happen to make us ready?

@Taz: If you are questioning his motives, why not ask this and get an answer first?

[Incognito]

Pre-post edit: I was going to post my thoughts, but after preview I noticed how lengthy the entire post became. I think I'll just separate them into smaller blocks. These are thoughts about my two biggest suspects (Zodiark and Untrod Tripod) followed by major conclusions. Other thoughts about the other players will hopefully follow. Feel free to ask questions and point out stuff I might have missed.

Zodiark:

I feel like anything I say about his hammer would be a re-hashing of stuff that's previously been said about it. It was bad. Not because it landed on a townie but because he really didn't give ABR much time to claim. Also, I don't particularly like the prefacing of the vote with his "reasoning" which just so happens to come to the final conclusion that ABR is scum. Zodiark didn't question ABR or anything of the sort; he just stated his reasoning for finding him scummy and then hammered him. I'd expect town to prod and probe a bit more before hammering. Zodiark didn't do that.

Prior to that, I wasn't crazy about his persistent insisting of hammering Dr P before a replacement could be found or before Dr P and/or his replacement could get a chance to claim. There was nothing scummy about Dr P's rage-quit; it looked like he was just frustrated, and imo, frustration tends to be a town-tell. Trying to pass off that "rage-quitting" as this major major scum-tell just to get that hammer makes me believe that he was possibly becoming impatient and eager to just get a poss-mislynch already.

Also:

tl;dr, Dr P. and Blaze are scumbiddies, and I found possible evidence.

Blaze comes across as a town learning the ropes for now, I don't have much suspicion for him yet.

TBH I've actually been thinking this myself. The fact that he joined the site 10-ish days ago doesn't help.

This change in opinion on Blaze is pretty drastic considering only a day had passed since you called him and Dr P scum buddies. I mean, it wasn't like Blaze posted anywhere within that timeframe either. Why did this change occur? When did you begin thinking that Blaze could be town learning the ropes?

[Incognito]

Untrod Tripod:

Untrod Tripod has bugged me because I've gotten the impression that he isn't really pushing the game along. Post 60 is a major major fence-sitting post; this was pointed out by LynchMePls, and I agree with him - it doesn't do much more than state the obvious, it doesn't take a stance on the possible alignments of the two debaters (Dr P and podium), and lastly, it doesn't do the "looking into" that you suggest we do here:

although I agree with what people have said in that we will probably find scum on the blaze wagon.

If you thought scum was likely on that wagon, why not try and figure out who that scum is? Why throw a side comment like this and not follow it up?

There was an obvious disconnect, too, with his own description of his play and how he played here towards the end of D1; he claimed to be this cautious player who doesn't like to jump to conclusions so fast, but he was rather quick to throw the first vote out on ABR when he concluded with stating that he found ABR's play to be "anti-town". Not scummy but anti-town. I believe it was podium who pointed out the problem with UT's 6th post too; the question along the bottom had already been answered, so I don't really see the purpose of it there. And considering the fact that it came only

after

being interrogated/voted by LynchMePls, it gave me the feeling that you were trying to appease him by "appearing active".

Can you go into more reasoning as to why you don't think Zodiark is scum too?

[Incognito]

Major conclusions:

Now, my issue right now is this: After reading both Untrod Tripod's and Zodiark's play individually and then trying to put their play together in the big picture, I really thought I saw a strong potential for the two of them to be scum with one another. Their interactions are pretty textbook "two-scum in a game" behavior; they barely mention each other, they haven't voted for one another (aside from Zodiark's RVS vote on UT), and they've had similar suspicions on people who I think stand a stronger chance of being town than scum at this point. I'd be fine with this except Untrod's latest post where he states that he doesn't think Zodiark is scum worries the shit out of me - I'd kind of expect an Untrod-scum to go into hyper-bus mode at that point considering the fact that Zodiark is at L-1 with seemingly no way out of it. If they're scum together, he

could

be going for the "oh shit, I was just wrong about him" route, but it's still something that concerns me.

And that's another part of the reason I want to extend this Day a bit - I don't think LynchMePls and Untrod Tripod are scum together considering their interactions, and I don't think Zodiark and Tazaro are scum together either for similar reasons. I'm not very much interested in TDC or podium as scum right now. LynchMePls hasn't been the paragon of townieness in my eyes, but I've liked his Untrod Tripod-hate. And Tazaro's been a bit of a null tell for me. So for me, I'd like to try to figure out my two major unknowns, and my two scum reads before we lynch anyone. And I'd also like to see if my "townies" still hold out too. Hence, my in-the-momentness.

So let's play.

[Incognito]

I knew I was forgetting something.

vote: Untrod Tripod

[LimMePls]

I knew I was forgetting something.

vote: Untrod Tripod

Thank god, sanity has been brought to this game. I've been barking up this tree for awhile with absolutely 0 help.

Unvote
Vote: Untrod Tripod

[Tazaro]

I find it interesting that Taz was willing to unvote before asking Incognito why he wanted the unvote. Looks like buddying up to the new player.

You think things are going to happen to make us ready?

@Taz: If you are questioning his motives, why not ask this and get an answer first?

I put cart before the horse at times. I'm not sure I like Incognito's vote for Untrod Tripod.

[Tazaro]

I find it interesting that Taz was willing to unvote before asking Incognito why he wanted the unvote. Looks like buddying up to the new player.

You think things are going to happen to make us ready?

@Taz: If you are questioning his motives, why not ask this and get an answer first?

I put cart before the horse at times. I'm not sure I like Incognito's vote for Untrod Tripod.

...because he's starting a new wagon after the Zodiark one.

Vote: Zodiark

[Incognito]

Why is that bad? What do you think of the stuff I pulled up about Untrod Tripod or your thoughts about him in general?

[Untrod Tripod]

ok, I guess I'll first respond to your thoughts on me:

Secondly: Do you guys remember how you lynched ABR without a claim? Yeah. We won't be doing that anymore, got it?

You're not in charge of this game. Also this is kind of a pointless thing to say, which seems to me to be saying "yeah, that lynch and everyone who was a part of it is stuuuuuuupid". We didn't want the claim because we'd already had one (it was day 1, remember) and it would give the scum more information. Also ABR was being angry and combative. You want us to just ignore him unless we get a claim? Right. Let's not lynch anyone without a claim, sound good?

podium <-> Dr Pepper looked really town on town to me, especially after Dr Pepper went so far as to "rage-quit" out. I was shocked that people thought his so-called rage-quitting was scummy. podium's posting throughout the game in general has struck me as townish, so I feel even more confident about this determination.

I guess this is a your mileage may vary point. To many of us, someone getting a lot of crap from everyone about their playstyle and being called scum replacing out seems scummy. I don't think that podium is more town because of Dr. Pepper replacing, scum or not. This is faulty reasoning, imo.

I want my thoughts down and a bit more discussion before having any kind of a lynch. I do think Zodiark has done some scummy stuff, but I've got a pool of about 4 people (him included) who are giving me conflicting reads, and I want to get in the game and get better reads on them before we move on with any kind of a lynch. I'm an in-the-moment kind of player.

I like the first part of this post. I don't like that you call yourself an in-the-moment kind of player, because I feel like you're trying to write yourself a blank check to act like ABR.

Prior to that, I wasn't crazy about [Zodiark's] persistent insisting of hammering Dr P before a replacement could be found or before Dr P and/or his replacement could get a chance to claim. There was nothing scummy about Dr P's rage-quit; it looked like he was just frustrated, and imo, frustration tends to be a town-tell. Trying to pass off that "rage-quitting" as this major major scum-tell just to get that hammer makes me believe that he was possibly becoming impatient and eager to just get a poss-mislynch already.

Or maybe he just thought he was scum. Scum can get frustrated too. Frustration doesn't have an alignment and he was acting scummy before he asked for the replacement. I think you're grasping at straws here.

tl;dr, Dr P. and Blaze are scumbiddies, and I found possible evidence.

Blaze comes across as a town learning the ropes for now, I don't have much suspicion for him yet.

TBH I've actually been thinking this myself. The fact that he joined the site 10-ish days ago doesn't help.

This change in opinion on Blaze is pretty drastic considering only a day had passed since you called him and Dr P scum buddies. I mean, it wasn't like Blaze posted anywhere within that timeframe either. Why did this change occur? When did you begin thinking that Blaze could be town learning the ropes?

Did you even read the quote? He said he reconsidered it. Blaze doesn't have to post somewhere for Zodiark to say "well, ok, maybe I was wrong about that".

There was an obvious disconnect, too, with his own description of his play and how he played here towards the end of D1; he claimed to be this cautious player who doesn't like to jump to conclusions so fast, but he was rather quick to throw the first vote out on ABR when he concluded with stating that he found ABR's play to be "anti-town".

I thought ABR was acting like scum, so I voted for him. You say you have a problem with me fencesitting and then you say I'm throwing out votes indiscriminately. You can't have it both ways, dude.

Not scummy but anti-town. I believe it was podium who pointed out the problem with UT's 6th post too; the question along the bottom had already been answered, so I don't really see the purpose of it there. And considering the fact that it came only after being interrogated/voted by LynchMePls, it gave me the feeling that you were trying to appease him by "appearing active".

I find it incredibly annoying that you're actually going to go with the "saying anti-town instead of scummy is suspicious!" argument here. Anti-town means you are acting like your win condition does not align with town. So if I find that someone is acting like they don't want the town to win, I should just leave them alone? Also yes I ASKED A STUPID QUESTION. You're like, the sixth person to point that out. Way to go. So what you're saying is "LMP called you out on being inactive and not taking a stance, so you posting after that is suspicious". Grasping at straws.

Major conclusions: Now, my issue right now is this: After reading both Untrod Tripod's and Zodiark's play individually and then trying to put their play together in the big picture, I really thought I saw a strong potential for the two of them to be scum with one another. Their interactions are pretty textbook "two-scum in a game" behavior; they barely mention each other, they haven't voted for one another (aside from Zodiark's RVS vote on UT), and they've had similar suspicions on people who I think stand a stronger chance of being town than scum at this point.

There are a lot of ways for scum buddies to act. You're saying "there really isn't much of a connection between them, and I disagree with them, therefore they are scum". Do you not see the missteps in logic there? Scum teams can ignore each other, attack each other, buddy up and create arguments against town (you know, kind of exactly like you and LMP are doing right now) or any combination of the those options. I don't think that, especially at this stage of the game, you can claim that not having voted for each other means we're a scum team. You really just don't have enough information to claim a pattern. Especially one of "you aren't doing anything together".

I'd be fine with this except Untrod's latest post where he states that he doesn't think Zodiark is scum worries the shit out of me - I'd kind of expect an Untrod-scum to go into hyper-bus mode at that point considering the fact that Zodiark is at L-1 with seemingly no way out of it. If they're scum together, he could be going for the "oh shit, I was just wrong about him" route, but it's still something that concerns me.

So what you're saying is that if I'm scum with Zodiark, I'd be bussing him? Well I didn't bus him, so what does that mean? Maybe that you're wrong. Here's what I don't get: you came up with the theory of how Zodiark and I would be interacting as scum, but it fell apart at the end. Wouldn't you think that if I were scum and he were town I would have hammered him? Is it entirely inconceivable to you that maybe I just don't know his alignment because I'm town and I don't think he's the correct lynch for today? He could still be scum, but I'm unconvinced.

And that's another part of the reason I want to extend this Day a bit - I don't think LynchMePls and Untrod Tripod are scum together considering their interactions, and I don't think Zodiark and Tazaro are scum together either for similar reasons. I'm not very much interested in TDC or podium as scum right now. LynchMePls hasn't been the paragon of townieness in my eyes, but I've liked his Untrod Tripod-hate. And Tazaro's been a bit of a null tell for me. So for me, I'd like to try to figure out my two major unknowns, and my two scum reads before we lynch anyone. And I'd also like to see if my "townies" still hold out too. Hence, my in-the-momentness.

Distancing is a common tactic to avoid pairing with other members of your Faction. It is most commonly done by Anti-Town factions such as Mafia or Cults, but can also be used by Masons to avoid being night-killed as a confirmed pro-town player.
It involves putting oneself at odds with one's partner(s), either by disagreement over a third party, or by direct conflict against each other. The effectivness of this technique is often based on timing and the quality of performance from the distance-ees.

I'm not saying Zodiark and Taz are scum together, I just think that you're completely, entirely, 100% wrong in saying that they're not because Taz is trying to lynch Zodiark.

[Untrod Tripod]

Other thoughts:
Incognito, I find it kind of suspicious that you came in and buddied up with LMP. As you could read in the game I posted for LMP to read, I used this as a scum tactic in my last completed game to get on the town's good side. You buddy up with a fairly pro-town player (I'd say LMP is fairly pro-town) and ride the goodwill out for as long as possible. Your predecessor(s) hardly confirm you as town, so I feel like this would actually be a good tactic if you're scum to get us to forget ConfidAnon's lurking and replacement.

[Untrod Tripod]

I find it interesting that Taz was willing to unvote before asking Incognito why he wanted the unvote. Looks like buddying up to the new player.

You think things are going to happen to make us ready?

@Taz: If you are questioning his motives, why not ask this and get an answer first?

I put cart before the horse at times. I'm not sure I like Incognito's vote for Untrod Tripod.

...because he's starting a new wagon after the Zodiark one.

Vote: Zodiark

sorry for triple post, but I would like to say that I agree that it's interesting that Incognito came in, called a guy with a wagon on him scummy and then promptly tried his darndest to derail the wagon. goodposting, Taz.

[Incognito]

I could respond to that whole post in great dealer than this, but I get the feeling most of you wouldn't read it.

To summarize though, UT, you've mischaracterized a lot of points in your response to me. At the end of the Day, the thought wasn't "we shouldn't have anyone else claim even if we lynch them", which is what you seem to be insinuating; it was "we should probably just lynch TDC because he already claimed Vanilla and having more people forced into claims might expose PRs to the scum". Since the majority of the town clearly wasn't buying into that argument, the correct thing to do there was to wait for the claim. IIRC, ABR was only asked to claim once on that page that Zodiark decided to hammer him. There wasn't a deadline, there was plenty of time to gather more info, so I don't see the need to hammer without a proper response to a claim request.

As for the part about Zodiark considering the possibility of Blaze being town learning the ropes, yes, I did read what he said there. But that goes completely against what he said prior to that (I mean, the guy pretty definitively said he thought Blaze and Dr P were scum buddies). If I see that dramatic of a contradiction, I'm obviously going to inquire about it. I don't think it would be very wise to just take him at his word; I'm trying to figure out if he's being genuine. I find it more odd that you're just willing to accept his response of "considering it" in the face of that dramatic of a contradiction in that short of a time span.

A lot of your other responses and questions can be explained by probability and my thoughts on how I'd expect scum to act in certain situations. Obviously scum can act contrary to my expectations, but I'm just putting out my thoughts with respect to it and explaining why I think that way. Dr P's playstyle and his "my way or the highway" kind of attitude made it seem perfectly reasonable to me for him to request replacement in that kind of situation. The content of his posting didn't necessarily raise any huge flags for me either, so I'm going with the idea that he genuinely was frustrated and was likely town as a result. Could scum get frustrated too? Yes, obviously. Contextually though, I think his replacement request rings more town-sided than scum-sided there.

Other thoughts:
Incognito, I find it kind of suspicious that you came in and buddied up with LMP. As you could read in the game I posted for LMP to read, I used this as a scum tactic in my last completed game to get on the town's good side.

Even if we ignore the fact that I haven't even buddied up to LMP here (I mean, I agreed with his suspicions of you, but I've also clearly said that he's currently one of my unknowns; buddying up would require me to call him town and everything), I have a tendency to buddy up regardless of my alignment.

[Incognito]

sorry for triple post, but I would like to say that I agree that it's interesting that Incognito came in, called a guy with a wagon on him scummy and then promptly tried his darndest to derail the wagon. goodposting, Taz.

If Taz is being genuine here, I could see why he'd become suspicious of that but you? Why would you find that interesting when you've mentioned a few times now that you think Zodiark is town?

[Tazaro]

If I'm being genuine. Genuine is my middle name.

[Incognito]

Well then explain why. I don't see what's wrong with me expressing multiple suspicions; it's not like we're dealing with a single scum here.

And I'd like thoughts on UT plz.

[Zodiark13]

Woah, this game exploded into activity while I slept or something. Seriously, I check to see if anything was happening(but, for various personal reasons, couldn't post) and there was nothing new. I come back and there's a whole new page. Catch up time! Also, for now;

VOTE FOR ZODIARK, PEOPLE!

Actually, can someone just unvote Zodiark please? He's at L-1 right now, and I don't think we're ready for that yet.

Unvote

You think things are going to happen to make us ready?

And you're voting for me for changing my mind. How wishy washy.

[Zodiark13]

This change in opinion on Blaze is pretty drastic considering only a day had passed since you called him and Dr P scum buddies. I mean, it wasn't like Blaze posted anywhere within that timeframe either. Why did this change occur? When did you begin thinking that Blaze could be town learning the ropes?

What, is it scummy to think about games when not posting, without posting such thoughts, and arrive at a different conclusion a few days later?!

After reading both Untrod Tripod's and Zodiark's play individually and then trying to put their play together in the big picture, I really thought I saw a strong potential for the two of them to be scum with one another. Their interactions are pretty textbook "two-scum in a game" behavior; they barely mention each other, they haven't voted for one another (aside from Zodiark's RVS vote on UT), and they've had similar suspicions on people who I think stand a stronger chance of being town than scum at this point.

By this logic, you could also be a possible scumbuddy with me, because I have had no suspicions of your slot, and, IIRC your slot has had none of me. I'm not saying we are, I'm just trying to point out that just because we have had little interaction, doesn't make us scumbuddys

it's been a while, so i'm assuming that zodiark read my last post and chose not to respond... so

I felt that my 178 answered other such accusations, and I saw no reason to repeat myself. You did nothing but point to old questions. You want more answers, you ask more questions.

I think that's everything. If not, ask away, and please don't point to old questions. If I haven't already answered, chances are I didn't/don't see the question.



Off-topic, I just noticed podium joined the site on the day I turned 18.

[Incognito]

What, is it scummy to think about games when not posting, without posting such thoughts, and arrive at a different conclusion a few days later?!

It wasn't a few days later. It was literally a day later. You went from "they're scum buddies!" to "I'm thinking town" rather quickly. Yes, that's scummy because it looks like you might have just been attempting to follow the popular opinion, and it looks like your thought process wasn't actually genuine.

By this logic, you could also be a possible scumbuddy with me, because I have had no suspicions of your slot, and, IIRC your slot has had none of me. I'm not saying we are, I'm just trying to point out that just because we have had little interaction, doesn't make us scumbuddys

Christ. This isn't hard, people, which is why I don't get why you and Untrod can't figure this out. As I said, I found you both scummy

individually

. The typical thing to do when you find people scummy individually is to look and see if the people make sense as buddies together, and imo, you did for the most part because of your lack of interactions. The only thing that gave me pause on that was Untrod's recent thoughts about you - my expectation was that if he was scum with you, he might just bus you at this point rather than defend you considering the fact that you already reached L-1, etc. So at this point, I'm thinking either you're both scum or one of you is scum. Given what I've read, I feel pretty confident that there

is

scum in at least one of {Untrod, Zodiark}, and I'm trying to figure out which is the more likely.

-~-~-~-~

Can I get your thoughts on Untrod Tripod?