Mini 1046 - Murder in the Desert (Game Over!)

[Bub Bidderskins]

Your post starts as IIoA.
boberz responded to the parts of my post that need responding. He's still scum, though.
Point out 3 examples of me being defensive, please.
DH, me, and Slaxx are the first 2 to put pressure on boberz - so if you think he's scum, you think one of the original attackers is likely scummy?

I would like to hear your thoughts on the cases against boberz and the attacks on CES and Slaxx. You say you find boberz scummy without directly referencing any reasons against him, and the try to pair him up with the people who provided those reasons in the first place.
I do not understand your paragraph about Slaxx at all... seems like IIoA again except I see no point.
Your questions directed at boberz are total crap. 1st is irrelevant, 2nd is asking about meta, 3rd is irrelevant.
Question at charter is totally worthless - he posted recently and it seems to support his earlier belief.
Also, note that Bub bolded his responses to my questions inside the quote.

PREVIEW EDIT:
Oh this is comedy gold.
Xine wrote:
For now, I see bob as pretty scummy, with one of Slaxx, Parama, or DH as his buddy, probably Parama, because he seems hyper defensive too.
Xine wrote:
oh yeah, VOTE: Parama, just so it be in black and white
You think I'm scum if boberz is scum. You even express boberz as your #1 suspicion
At the same time, you vote me over boberz.

FoS: Scumbuddy, Vote: Townie
^it's a pretty awesome scumtell

And here we have another scum. I'd almost say Xine is more obvious that boberz. HoS: Xine
Let's lynch boberz today, Xine tomorrow, and Weapons on D3. GG

Massive OMGUS.

Lol. You didn't even read my arguments, obviously.
If Xine thinks boberz is scum, and I'm just a "buddy", then why isn't he voting his #1 scumread? Because FoS: Scumbbudy, Vote: Townie.

I'm "rushing to his defense" because your questions are crap and are not scumhunting at all? I am not defending him, I am attacking you. At the same time, boberz is #1 on my scum list and I am currently voting him. And you claim I am defending him?

Admitted OMUGUS

vote: Parama

I am attacking him, yes. I am not attacking him simply because he voted me, though. If you'd actually READ my posts, you'd know this.

When some one finally put a serious vote on you, the first thing you do is vote at them. How can you honestly think Xine is scum when he only posted twice before you voted for him? And it wasn't as if they were scummy posts, on the contrary, the only thing "scummy" about them was that in the second post he voted for you. That's a textbook definition of OMUGUS.

1. Because the vote had terrible logic. Xine says boberz is his #1 scumpick, then proceeds not to vote him. P.S. I never voted Xine.
2. Well, for starters, FoS: Scumbbuddy, Vote: Townie. Note: boberz voted Slaxx with a "serious" vote after only two posts.
3. Yes, the first post was scummy. Very scummy. I already explained why.

I'm lol'ing so hard right now. Bub thinks I'm OMGUSing even though I broke down each and every scummy thing about Xine's two posts and showed how he was incredibly likely to be scum with boberz. Except Bub is also content to not even mention my arguments and simply dismiss it all as OMGUS. I think we have another scum here - sorry for calling you out earlier, Weapons

And guess who is getting called out for scum now? Bub, who also happens to be voting for mister OMGUS. It seems like every time some one makes a serious vote on you, you get all indignant and say they're scum. That isn't indicative of town play. In order to attempt to disguise this overtly over-defensive behaviour, you cushioned your OMGUS by saying the person you OMGUSed was scummy.

Question: If Xine had not voted for you, would you have voted for him?
Question: Did you think I was scummy before I voted for you?

[DemonHybrid]

I'm "rushing to his defense" because your questions are crap and are not scumhunting at all? I am not defending him, I am attacking you. At the same time, boberz is #1 on my scum list and I am currently voting him. And you claim I am defending him?

Admitted OMUGUS

vote: Parama

When some one finally put a serious vote on you, the first thing you do is vote at them. How can you honestly think Xine is scum when he only posted twice before you voted for him? And it wasn't as if they were scummy posts, on the contrary, the only thing "scummy" about them was that in the second post he voted for you. That's a textbook definition of OMUGUS.

Bub.

Read this.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =5&t=15167

This is why your case is a flaily, terrible mess.

And in response to Parama asking why I'm afraid of a quickhammer: People do it...a LOT. You should know this.

Bub's looking more scummy to me that bob is. Now...I don't THINK they're scum and scum, rather scum and town, but at this point, I'm more comfortable with a Bub lynch.

Unvote, Vote: Bub Bidderskins

I'm keeping an eye on the rest of the arguments...but nothing else has really stood out at this time.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I'm "rushing to his defense" because your questions are crap and are not scumhunting at all? I am not defending him, I am attacking you. At the same time, boberz is #1 on my scum list and I am currently voting him. And you claim I am defending him?

Admitted OMUGUS

vote: Parama

When some one finally put a serious vote on you, the first thing you do is vote at them. How can you honestly think Xine is scum when he only posted twice before you voted for him? And it wasn't as if they were scummy posts, on the contrary, the only thing "scummy" about them was that in the second post he voted for you. That's a textbook definition of OMUGUS.

Bub.

Read this.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =5&t=15167

This is why your case is a flaily, terrible mess.

And in response to Parama asking why I'm afraid of a quickhammer: People do it...a LOT. You should know this.

Bub's looking more scummy to me that bob is. Now...I don't THINK they're scum and scum, rather scum and town, but at this point, I'm more comfortable with a Bub lynch.

Unvote, Vote: Bub Bidderskins

I'm keeping an eye on the rest of the arguments...but nothing else has really stood out at this time.

The situation presented in that topic is different. I made my case

and

said Parama used OMGUS at the same time, after Parama presented a purely OMGUS case against Xine. Then, Parama said I was scum right after I voted for him.

Parama's overly defensive behaviour is scummy, and the OMGUS is his tool to defend. I'm going to iso him and most more later.

[Bub Bidderskins]

EBWOP: Post, not most, that is.

[DemonHybrid]

Wow, talk about a missed point.

Parama made HIS case against YOU (A very legit one, I might add). So how is that an OMGUS vote when he clearly knew why he was voting you with logic instead of blatantly throwing a vote on you JUST BECAUSE you were voting for him?

[DemonHybrid]

Wow, talk about a missed point.

Parama made HIS case against YOU (A very legit one, I might add). So how is that an OMGUS vote when he clearly knew why he was voting you with logic instead of blatantly throwing a vote on you JUST BECAUSE you were voting for him?

EBWOP:

Wait a second, I completely misunderstood shit. Sorry about that, I'm in 6 games right now.

Regardless, he never voted Xine. He HoS'd him, but not voted.

[DemonHybrid]

EBWOP2: He never voted for you, either. I have to admit, I did do only a moderate skim of the game so far, only because there's so much I can read over 6 games, plus schoolwork and whatnot.

Let me put this in perspective.

Xine makes a case against Parama before voting him. Parama makes a case against Xine, but DOESN'T vote him. You vote Parama, claiming OMGUS. He makes a slight case against you, but doesn't vote you (which is what I thought I did. Parama has a habit of wording his cases very strongly but -not- voting).

[Slaxx]

Bobers, last vote count says you haven't..And if you really did forget either Nic missed it or I am blind.

[Slaxx]

Also I have been on the defense quite a lot so expect a decent post from me detailing FoSs, maybe a town tell or two, and whatnot by the end of the day.

[boberz]

You are right, one of my posts didnt come out yesterday. I made a detailed case and vote on Bub Buddikins. I will do it again in a sec.

unvote vote Bub

Sorry.

[Slaxx]

Its cool. This changes things, I thought you were just unwilling to leave my BW.

Bleh I have work to do.

[boberz]

but first to answer things directed at me.

Why was it necessary?

Because if I had not made it look serious and defend it for a while it would have had the same use as a normal random vote, exactly what I was trying to avoid. It worked albeit by creating a large wagon on myself.

I am not a big fan of all these potential partnerships/teams being set up. It feels to me like people are just speculating in a bid to avoid actually finding anything original on me. If people think I am scummy they should make an independent case in day1 rather than linking players and creating a lot of hot air.

Boberz, do you really shower every 7 1/2 hours?

No I had showered twice in that time, but I just looked at the day tags at that point, saw it was two different days and assumed I had showered thrice. Semantics.

[boberz]

This feels quite strange (trying to remake a case in my mind I have already made if that makes sense) but here it goes:

My case is contextualised by this post here:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 7#p2501437

After this I made a slightly smaller post that had another point (but I honestly cannot remember what it is, and I dont have time to iso him again properly) but most importantly voted for Bub. It never came out (perhaps I never pressed submit)

However since then I have noticed a couple more things about Bub's play:
Bub's accusation of Parama is poor by that I mean that I am not a fan of OMGUS (read the theory thread earlier I like it) neither do I think defensiveness is bad, especially if people are attacking you.
But also the actual content of the accusations and cases is very small. They are made to look a lot larger with quotes and repitition but it is still only paper thin content. SO it is a bit like active lurking, but there is a greater attempt than normal to actually look like he is contributing.

[Nicodemus]

Vote Count 1.07

boberz

(4): xvart, Parama, Cogito Ergo Sum, Slaxx

Bub Bidderskins

(3): WeaponsofMassConstruction, DemonHybrid, boberz

Slaxx

(2): Lowell, charter

Parama

(2): Xine, Bub Bidderskins

Cogito Ergo Sum

(1): Oso

7

to lynch.

Deadline for D1 can be found here

[Parama]

And guess who is getting called out for scum now? Bub, who also happens to be voting for mister OMGUS. It seems like every time some one makes a serious vote on you, you get all indignant and say they're scum. That isn't indicative of town play. In order to attempt to disguise this overtly over-defensive behaviour, you cushioned your OMGUS by saying the person you OMGUSed was scummy.

You cannot dismiss valid logic as OMGUS. You accuse me of OMGUSing Xine, yet you do not even bother to explain why my arguments against Xine are invalid. You now accuse me of OMGUSing you, and you haven't explained why my arguments against YOU are invalid.

P.S. Here's what's happening ITT:
boberz is teh scum
Xine makes perfectly valid case against boberz, calls me out as a potential buddy, and then votes me over boberz, aka FoS: Scumbuddy, Vote: Townie
I attack Xine for perfectly logical reasons
Bub chainsaw defends Xine by attacking me and accusing me of OMGUS while ignoring those perfectly logical reasons I presented against Xine
I call him out for this with more perfectly logical reasons
Bub accuses me of OMGUS for the second time, again ignoring the perfectly logical reasons

Question: If Xine had not voted for you, would you have voted for him?

I did not vote him in the first place, and most of my first post mentioning him was typed out before the vote (see: Preview Edit). I still want to lynch boberz first, because I still find him scummiest.

Question: Did you think I was scummy before I voted for you?

I did not have you in my top 3 scumreads, but you were scummy FMPOV for refusal to take any solid stances; see:

Right now CES seems like scum. He's posted what, four times, and none of them have more than five or so words in them. It's sort of like he's saying "Hey guys, I'm in the game, but I don't want to say anything that would help the town."

And you haven't voted, at all.
Which helps the town more: A wall-o-text without a vote or a short post with a vote on scum?

where I called you out for this.

The situation presented in that topic is different. I made my case

and

said Parama used OMGUS at the same time, after Parama presented a purely OMGUS case against Xine. Then, Parama said I was scum right after I voted for him.

1. My case is not purely OMGUS. My reasons for suspecting Xine are NOT because he attacked me, but how he did it - calling me a scumbuddy of boberzscum, yet not voting boberz after this accusation.
2. I called you out because you IGNORED ^this^ and passed off VALID LOGIC as OMGUS. And now you're passing off THIS SAME LOGIC as OMGUS as well.

DH, I am not voting Bub because I have my vote on scum already. Xine and Bub can happen later, no, WILL happen later, but I cannot lynch 3 people in one day.
Unless someone is a day-vig and wants to kill one of them today for us. I'd be quite glad if someone did that, thanks ^.^

[charter]

Charter, what questions are you referring to?

People questioning why you put him at L-1. If no one asked it specifically, I'm asking now (though Lowell mentioned it). Also, how did you go from expressing little/no suspicion of him to putting him at L-1 in the span of one post.

And then, you can explain why instead of explaining to Lowell why you have no problem putting someone at L-1 you came back with your deflection question.

I support this Bub wagon, as well, since his double standard he applies to Slaxx reeks of scumbuddies.

[Lowell]

Both wagons are fine with me.

unvote, vote bub

[Bub Bidderskins]

Regardless, he never voted Xine. He HoS'd him, but not voted.

I stand correct myself.

I did not vote him in the first place, and most of my first post mentioning him was typed out before the vote (see: Preview Edit). I still want to lynch boberz first, because I still find him scummiest.

Me mistaking your seething and bolded HoS for a vote does not give you an excuse to dodge the question.

Would you have HoSed Xine if he didn't vote for you?

P.S. Here's what's happening ITT:
boberz is teh scum

Why do you think he's scum again?

Xine makes perfectly valid case against boberz, calls me out as a potential buddy, and then votes me over boberz, aka FoS: Scumbuddy, Vote: Townie

This appears to be your only semi-valid point against Xine. And yet, if it's so important, how come you never bothered to ask him why he did it? If you really cared about that part that actually had a shred of logic in it, then you would have gotten his take on it. I know from the way you've attacked my play style that you don't have much respect for evaluating other people's stances, but you should have at least made an exception here. Go ahead, ask him why he did it, but until you do my opinion is still the same: OMGUS

I attack Xine for perfectly logical reasons

^see above^

Bub chainsaw defends Xine by attacking me and accusing me of OMGUS while ignoring those perfectly logical reasons I presented against Xine

They are not ignored anymore, ^see above^

I call him out for this with more perfectly logical reasons

Your "perfectly logical reasons" were only concerned with me "ignoring" your "perfectly logical reasons" in your case on Xine. Well, that has been ammended, what do you think of me now?

Bub accuses me of OMGUS for the second time, again ignoring the perfectly logical reasons

^see above^

You said yourself that I wasn't in your top list of suspects until I voted for you. The only reason I was even remotely scummy was that you personally didn't like my play style.

OMGUS is defined as voting for some one primarily because they voted for you. As I've shown above, the only "reason" you had for voting for me was a weak and flimsey cover for your real intentions.

Oh, and I voted for you.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Both wagons are fine with me.

unvote, vote bub

This kind of flippant attitude is why you are always a suspect, Lowell. Care to explain why you don't care which wagon goes through?

Also, Cognito Ergo Sum, don't think I've forgotted about you. You still haven't explained why you are currently voting for the biggest wagon. Please ammend this.

[Slaxx]

It was when he accepted my explanation but stayed on my wagon. That's what I've said time and time again.

Idk the way he worded it was kind of cocky and smartassish so instead of making an intelligible reply like I should have I just snipped back. But tbh he asked me a really dumb question in my own eyes. I was pressuring someone I thought was scum while prodding the lurkers, and he though that there was something wrong with attacking lurkers but voting boberz,. Its kind of like focusing your attention on the misbehaving kid on the playground while you're trying to prevent the other ones from eating the playdough.

[Xine]

Parama, you say "reasons" for suspecting me, yet you list only one reason,do you have any others?
IMO, hyper defensivness is very much a scum tell, and I see you getting more defensive every time you are questioned, and that is the primary reason I am keeping my vote on you for now. just so you know.

Also, many of you have been pressuring bub to take a stand on something, and as soon as he does, you say his point is flawed and he is therefore scum, really, what's up with the double standard? I think he made a decent point, Parama is showing a trend of FOSing anybody who suspects him. One point is not really a case, but at this early stage in the game one point is enough to start with. It's a better point then "You don't like the RVS, therefore you are scum" argument that earned nearly 5 pages of attacks on Boberz.

If I get the time tonight, or tomorrow I plan to do a re-read, and maybe run an ISO or three, there is a good chance this may give me a fresh perspective on many players.

[xvart]

Posting later tonight. Gotta catch up on four pages of posts.

xvart.

[Parama]

I did not vote him in the first place, and most of my first post mentioning him was typed out before the vote (see: Preview Edit). I still want to lynch boberz first, because I still find him scummiest.

Me mistaking your seething and bolded HoS for a vote does not give you an excuse to dodge the question.

I did not dodge it. I said I wouldn't have voted him if he didn't vote me - see the fact that most of my argument against Xine was written BEFORE I even saw the vote.

P.S. Here's what's happening ITT:
boberz is teh scum

Why do you think he's scum again?

Xine makes perfectly valid case against boberz, calls me out as a potential buddy, and then votes me over boberz, aka FoS: Scumbuddy, Vote: Townie

This appears to be your only semi-valid point against Xine. And yet, if it's so important, how come you never bothered to ask him why he did it? If you really cared about that part that actually had a shred of logic in it, then you would have gotten his take on it. I know from the way you've attacked my play style that you don't have much respect for evaluating other people's stances, but you should have at least made an exception here. Go ahead, ask him why he did it, but until you do my opinion is still the same: OMGUS

It's my main point against Xine. I said this exact same thing the first time I suspected him.
Shocking revelation: Xine did reply to my argument, and I replied to his reply:

The reason I voted you not him…I found a likely team, and put my vote on the one who is not hovering around L-1. I’m not ready to jump up on such an advanced wagon on my first post.

If you think someone is scum, you should not be afraid to put them at L-1.

Also note that my other accusations: IIoA posting, irrelevant or weak questions,

So you're just not reading the thread now.

I attack Xine for perfectly logical reasons

^see above^

Your above has been nullified.

Bub chainsaw defends Xine by attacking me and accusing me of OMGUS while ignoring those perfectly logical reasons I presented against Xine

They are not ignored anymore, ^see above^

1. In this post. Bub admits that he ignored my reasons against Xine when he attacked me in the first place. Brilliant.
2. Again, above is nullified.

I call him out for this with more perfectly logical reasons

Your "perfectly logical reasons" were only concerned with me "ignoring" your "perfectly logical reasons" in your case on Xine. Well, that has been ammended, what do you think of me now?

Um, like I said, Bub admits he ignored my reasons when attacking me. You have not ignored it anymore, but that does not change the fact that YOU DID NO READ MY REASONS WHEN YOU INITIALLY ATTACKED ME. THEREFORE, YOU COULD NOT KNOW IF MY ATTACK WAS PURELY OMGUS. BUT YOU SAID IT WAS ANYWAYS. WITHOUT. EVEN. READING. IT.
This is why Bub is self-admitted scum.

Bub accuses me of OMGUS for the second time, again ignoring the perfectly logical reasons

^see above^

You said yourself that I wasn't in your top list of suspects until I voted for you. The only reason I was even remotely scummy was that you personally didn't like my play style.

…
What?
Yes, you entered my suspicions list with your chainsaw defense of Xine without even reading my arguments against Xine (as you stated yourself).
This has nothing to do with your playstyle.

OMGUS is defined as voting for some one primarily because they voted for you. As I've shown above, the only "reason" you had for voting for me was a weak and flimsey cover for your real intentions.

If you’ve been paying attention, it’s pretty damn strong logic.

Parama, you say "reasons" for suspecting me, yet you list only one reason,do you have any others?

See earlier in this post. I said these earlier but I'm repeating them for the blind scum.

IMO, hyper defensivness is very much a scum tell, and I see you getting more defensive every time you are questioned

If someone called you out for doing something scummy, wouldn't you want to tell them how wrong they are? P.S. You've been defensive too.

Also, many of you have been pressuring bub to take a stand on something, and as soon as he does, you say his point is flawed and he is therefore scum, really, what's up with the double standard?

He took a stand, and it was a flawed stand. Why wouldn't people call him out for that? If he had made a logical case on a player, he wouldn't be receiving the pressure. But he was pressure to take a stand after not taking one, and when he did, he did a terrible job of it.

It's a better point then "You don't like the RVS, therefore you are scum" argument that earned nearly 5 pages of attacks on Boberz.

This definitely isn't my argument against boberz, btw. You yourself gave some valid logic earlier, and now here you are defending him.

[Parama]

Ugh, more tag fail.

From this point on, stop posting bolded answers inside quotes. It makes responding a hell of a lot harder.

[charter]

unvote, vote Bub