Mini 1040 - Everyone's A Critic! [Game Over]

[Stef]

I am back and I'm in the process of rereading but the posting will come when I get back home.

[LimMePls]

Why do you "highly doubt" that? They have the same motivation as they do bussing partners by voting.

It just doesn't seem to make sense to me when they might as well just offer a townie up instead.

They'd do it just for the WIFOM of it. If there is a town motivation to do something, there is a scum motivation to do the same thing (ie. looking town).

[kunkstar7]

:: VoteCount 1x10 ::

Antihero (0) -
MagnaofIllusion (0) -

RedCoyote (0) -

danakillsu (2) -

RedCoyote, DavidParker

Jack (1) -

Jack

Haschel Cedricson (1) -

imaginality

LynchMePls (0) -

XScorpion (0) -

Stef (5) -

Haschel Cedricson, Antihero, LynchMePls, mykonian, danakillsu

imaginality (1) -

Stef

mykonian (0) -

DavidParker (2) -

MagnaOfIllusion, Xscorpion

Not Voting (0) -

With 12 Alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

September 19, 2010 5:00PM EST.

[mykonian]

Why do you "highly doubt" that? They have the same motivation as they do bussing partners by voting.

It just doesn't seem to make sense to me when they might as well just offer a townie up instead.

They'd do it just for the WIFOM of it. If there is a town motivation to do something, there is a scum motivation to do the same thing (ie. looking town).

In short: you are looking at the players motivations for a certain action. Is he trying to look town, or is he trying to lynch scum. Good players love WIFOM, it is everything in this game.

does anyone want more theory or are we going to lynch stef?

[Jack]

I apologize, I was very into this game for a while but various things have drawn my interest elsewhere. It appears I will be lobbing my opinion in from the sidelines rather than making substantial cases like I intended.

Claim: Unrequited best friend

Like a one-way mason. I know that Stef is innocent but he knows nothing about me. A wagon on him was ideal from my perspective as it allows a much better read of the game.

vote:mykonian

Useless and unpersuasive gut scum read, etc.

Antihero is another of my picks for scum.

I had concerns about jelly but the miller claim seems to have softened those.

I know that xscorpion was my third scum pick, but unfortunately I don't remember why I had a scum read on him and a town read on dana a few days ago, I will stick with that though.

[XScorpion]

Does this mean you have town views on everyone else? I am very curious to understand how you have town reads on Dana and DavidParker.

[DavidParker]

Because I'm awesome.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Claim: Unrequited best friend

Like a one-way mason. I know that Stef is innocent but he knows nothing about me. A wagon on him was ideal from my perspective as it allows a much better read of the game.

When did this role become popular? I had never seen it before I came back from my absence and now it happens to show up in two games with Jack in a row?

I'm sure you'll understand if I don't unvote Stef right away. Can you elaborate on why Antihero is scum?

[Jack]

I'm sure you'll understand if I don't unvote Stef right away.

No I won't, the cases on him have been terrible.

Can you elaborate on why Antihero is scum?

It's not important.

[danakillsu]

Well then. In light of Jack's claim, I guess I'll go back to hoping someone will see the light.

unvote vote: RedCoyote

[LimMePls]

Well then. In light of Jack's claim, I guess I'll go back to hoping someone will see the light.

unvote vote: RedCoyote

So you thought Stef was scum only based on his interaction with RC, Jack says Stef = town, so you go back to RC. Does this not say anything about that interaction? Was that interaction that troubled you not affected if Stef was town?

Unvote
Vote: danakillsu

[Jack]

Remind me to make a post sometime about the principle of charity and how it applies to mafia.

(apropos of nothing)

[danakillsu]

Well then. In light of Jack's claim, I guess I'll go back to hoping someone will see the light.

unvote vote: RedCoyote

So you thought Stef was scum only based on his interaction with RC, Jack says Stef = town, so you go back to RC. Does this not say anything about that interaction? Was that interaction that troubled you not affected if Stef was town?

Unvote
Vote: danakillsu

Yes, it says something about that interaction. It probably wasn't what I thought. But that in now way means that RC isn't scum.

[danakillsu]

Btw, Lynch, what did you expect me to do once Stef was cleared?

[LimMePls]

Well, I think that if you were willing to call Stef scum based solely on his link to RC, and then you learn Stef isn't scum, it should do more than make your "assocation" between them void, it also has possible implications to your scum read.

I dunno, but hopping right back to RC without any scum hunting inbetween seems like a pretty poor choice.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Well, I think that if you were willing to call Stef scum based solely on his link to RC, and then you learn Stef isn't scum, it should do more than make your "assocation" between them void, it also has possible implications to your scum read.

I dunno, but hopping right back to RC without any scum hunting inbetween seems like a pretty poor choice.

Actually, that's the first internally-consistent thing dana has done in quite some time.

It's not important.

At this point it actually is.

Anyhoo, do you approve or disapprove of dana's answer to the "Convince me to shoot/save Stef" scenario? Why or why not?

[RedCoyote]

Jack, that seems like a really, really awkward time to claim. I mean, what's stopping you from getting into this game? I guess it's for the best that you claim today given the fact that Stef could possibly be lynched, and could've possibly be shot.

The Antihero selection seems really out of the blue, and like HC just said, this would be something you'd need to backup. I don't see it, honestly. I haven't really had a problem with his play. Your mykonian vote is significantly worse, but you seem to acknowledge that. There's just not much I can do with this.

Unvote

;

vote: DavidParker

I'm still having trouble with his explanation about that silly Town/Scum list he posted earlier. I thought his joke was cute, but I still don't really understand the motivations behind the Antihero positioning.

[Stef]

This was unexpected.

Alright, first:

Unvote imaginality

- I'd like to add to this. The argument that pressure is better added by prods than votes is a weak one imho. Prods can make people post. Votes make people post content.

I really don't understand why Dana would push for my lynch when claiming constantly that RC is the scummiest one. And voting for possible scum connections D1 and nothing else is horrible.

Vote Dana

I've only had the chance to read a few people in ISO and get a general feel of the game. More detailed post when I get back to town.

[danakillsu]

Um....Stef...maybe I did that because no one else would vote for RC? Just maybe?
Pro-town people don't hang around forever on useless wagons.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Regarding Jack’s claim – I have good reason not to trust Jack as far as I can throw him when it comes to claims made when he isn’t under pressure.

Well, I think that if you were willing to call Stef scum based solely on his link to RC, and then you learn Stef isn't scum, it should do more than make your "assocation" between them void, it also has possible implications to your scum read.

So you are saying here that

1. Player A has a scum-read on Player B based on gameplay.
2. Player A thinks that Player C might be scum based solely on Player C’s interactions with Player B and not in the least based on any other factors.
3. Player C is vouched for / revealed to be Town.

and the logical conclusion is for Player A to question his or her read on Player B? That’s quite ridiculous.

So we can actually get a bandwagon going, and me not wasting a vote on someone for a weak case that noone is going to join on.

So you’d rather bandwagon someone who was earlier on your Town list as opposed to sticking with a case and vote you ‘made’ yourself.

So first you say you are going to make a case on mykonian. When you simply request you do it quickly you immediately back off and decide to, as you put it, ‘OMGUS’ my socks off. When that case gets summarily dismissed you hop on a popular bandwagon, but not the dominant one.

Anyone else see some scum-motivation here?

Because I'm awesome.

[announcer voice on] Your definition of awesome may vary [/announcer voice off]

Why are you not doing I bit of scum-hunting as opposed to dropping in one-liners that mostly apply to game theory?

I really do believe him to be a likely scumpal of the person my vote was on, so I'll take it as a second option.

I looked through your ISO and am trying to see where this conclusion came from. Here are the only quotes I can see that link Stef and RC together –

@ David and Stef
What more does it take to convince you that RC is scum? How is his latest post better than the earlier ones? It looks to me like a couple diversions and some gut feelings.

Shoot him. He's a possible scumbuddy to RC from his strange statement that his posting has improved and his wishy-washiness over him. He's not scummy for things he's done, just by connection to RC, but you could definitely do worse for an NK.

I take it from this that your case on Stef as a buddy revolves around his statement that RC's posting had improved.

Why don’t you consider everyone else who made similar statements (mykonian) or never considered RC’s posting scummy (myself and others)?

Also – what about David Parker’s play suggests to you that he is town?

Well then. In light of Jack's claim, I guess I'll go back to hoping someone will see the light. unvote vote: RedCoyote

Do you think simply placing a vote on him again is going to convince anyone? If you really feel he is scum how about putting together a case with support.

[LimMePls]

My point is that if he felt so sure about RC scum that a supposed RC -> Stef connection made Stef scum, then why does Jack's claim instantly clear Stef, and what does that say about his read of RC. Your saying it doesn't in any way put his reads into question? I'm saying that perhaps he isn't as right about RC as he thinks he is, given that he was so sure Stef was scum based on an RC connection, yet Jack's claim is enough to make him unvote... but go right back to RC.

[mykonian]

Damn you, Jack. Damn you.

Seriously. Am I finally convinced for once in my life my first suspect is scum, finally stick to him for a whole day... is this what you do.

maybe I will reread tomorrow. I'll certainly read it.

Btw, I believe the claim that Stef is town. This claim makes no sense in a scum-scum team (mason would be stronger, easier etc. => preferable for scum). The only scenario this makes sense with Jack as scum is Stef being town. Jack would pretty much clear himself with this claim. Sort of a day 1 1-shot cop claim with an inno. (if you are town, I should totally try this role as a fakeclaim sometime)

[danakillsu]

I take it from this that your case on Stef as a buddy revolves around his statement that RC's posting had improved.

Why don’t you consider everyone else who made similar statements (mykonian) or never considered RC’s posting scummy (myself and others)?

Also – what about David Parker’s play suggests to you that he is town?

Why are you quoting out of context? It's obvious from the entire post you quoted that I voted for him because he was voting for RC (i.e. saw that he was scummy just like I did) then unvoted seemingly because no one immediately joined the wagon (although he would never admit it) and refused to answer my question to him about RC's posting.
I have played with DP before, so it's a mix of meta and gut.
And don't even try to tell me to put together a case on RC. I have done so already, and I am tired of people ignoring a lot of what I say.
@LMP
Just because I think A causes B, and B does not turn out to be true, doesn't mean that A wasn't true. That is what you are trying to say, though, and it makes no sense. I drew a conclusion from something that I believe I have proven. The conclusion was faulty. That doesn't mean that the information I derived that conclusion from was faulty. It doesn't even make it more likely to be faulty.

[Haschel Cedricson]

And don't even try to tell me to put together a case on RC. I have done so already, and I am tired of people ignoring a lot of what I say.

Give me the Cliff's Notes.

RedCoyote, can you elaborate on your thoughts about Jack's claim?

[XScorpion]

The argument that pressure is better added by prods than votes is a weak one imho. Prods can make people post. Votes make people post content.

If they aren't posting, then you aren't gonna get content anyway.
Mykonian, if you believe the claim, why are you still voting Stef?