Newbie 1001 - Game Over

[skn27]

@ragna: Why do you believe that I would switch my vote to boberz?

[Ragnarokio]

because self preservation is a pretty standard act for players of any alignment. If either you or him are getting lynched, you KNOW that you are town (or you're mafia and just don't want to die), but you don't know that he is town, so its better to save a townie then let yourself be killed.

[KoreanWonderBoy]

@ Equinox I gave shotty a fresh card because I was being stupid I had mistakenly thought that shotty would be a completely new player. Then I realized that he was the same role as MiTC.
And yes, I figure that since I am townie, that people thinking how I am thinking are also townie.
... Ragnarokio and boberz bandwagoning seems strangely TOO suspicious to BE scummy. But still, bandwagoning is always a suspicious act. Like I said on one of the first few pages, bandwagoning is a good idea of scummy acts. While back then it was RVS (which I had no idea existed ) now, it's closer to the deadline. And Ragnarokio is also defending boberz. So... I'm not changing my vote yet.

[Equinox]

VOTE: MemnonUNVOTE:

Psst. Your vote won't count.

And yes, I figure that since I am townie, that people thinking how I am thinking are also townie.

For future reference, don't claim townie. If there are any power roles, claiming townie helps the mafia narrow down who is a possible cop or doctor. Only claim when it's absolutely necessary, such as at L-1 or in a mass claim situation.

Secondly, while it may be a good idea to find possible town players to "eliminate" from one's list of suspects, doing so on the basis that they agree with you has issues. For instance, it's a common scum tactic to "buddy up" to other players.

Thirdly, I have to ask: Why are you buddying up to skn27?

Ragnarokio and boberz bandwagoning seems strangely TOO suspicious to BE scummy. But still, bandwagoning is always a suspicious act. Like I said on one of the first few pages, bandwagoning is a good idea of scummy acts.

Bandwagons are not always suspicious. You have to look at the context and how the bandwagon itself is driven. A wagon where most of the votes are well-reasoned, for instance, is going to be a lot less suspicious than one that has people jumping on like sheep.

In my opinion, bandwagons are healthy, and they are

very

useful later in the game when we have a few flips. Bandwagons force people to take and defend their positions.

That said:

Unvote, Vote: Memnon

[CallMeLiam]

Vote Count

skn27

- 4 - Banana Stickers, Pizzaplate, Substrike22, drmyshottyizsik

drmyshottyizsik

- 2 - Memnon, KoreanWonderboy

Substrike22

- 1 - skn27

Memnon

- 2 - Ragnarokio, Equinox

Not Voting

- 0

Five votes lynches, Deadline is 9am

Friday the 10th of September

GMT. A countdown is here

[boberz]

Bandwagons are good, not at all scummy. Of course some people on a wagon can be scummy but that does not mean the wagons are anti town, they are most definately pro town.

VOTE: Memnon (Thanks, I hate these new tags I can never remember them.)

[boberz]

VLA till Monday evening please.

[Memnon]

Hey guys, I am back from my V/LA (I got prodded for some reason...).

Ragnarokio's Case

:

In short, what i see is this: Starts a minor case on Trenchcoat, barely maintains it until he disappears. Slaps the name substrike into half his later posts and complains about not having anything to do because Trenchcoat left. He's been doing virtually nothing the entire game, including at the start. Hes been more verbally active recently than at the start, actually, because hes trying to rekindle discussion, rather than scumhunt or attack people.

While this recap is largely true, I find that Ragnarokio has slipped in some misrepresentations.

Misrep #1: You say I barely maintained this case until he disappeared? I made my case, he responded to it, and I dealt with his defense. Then I was inactive for a while, due to work. In that time, he did not defend himself properly, and I said so when I got back. He never showed up again. So I say that you are wrong, and that he left because of my case (and Equinox's).

Misrep #2: I want to know what you are insinuating with the phrase "slaps the name substrike into half his posts".

Misrep #3: You are basically saying here that rekindling discussion doesn't have anything to do with scumhunting. Yes, it does. If no one is talking, how do you find stuff to scumhunt about?

Your case hinges on the fact that I haven't really done any scumhunting. That I've been "active lurking". Well, like I've said before, in a game like this, that argument kind of falls flat because it can apply to almost everyone here, including you.

Boberz' Case

:

Memmon in post #188 "There goes my top suspect" bad bad bad. You should not be looking at your suspect dissapearing as a bad thing it is as if you were targetting a lynch and your lynch has gone and now you might just find the next player is good (he wasnt).

You are forgetting the other explanation for me not wanting my top suspect to flake. If I have unanswered suspicions about said suspect, wouldn't I want them answered? Thus, I looked at my top suspect flaking as a bad thing. My suspicions are still unanswered.

Now Memnon thinking that he needs to find lynches rather than work out who is scum is allignment dependent. Scum looking for mislynches, town looking for scum. The difference is the thing that helps us find scum, and I have.

This argument builds on the assumption above, that I was targeting a lynch. Which I refute.

Other Stuff

:

Ragnarokio and boberz bandwagoning seems strangely TOO suspicious to BE scummy. But still, bandwagoning is always a suspicious act. Like I said on one of the first few pages, bandwagoning is a good idea of scummy acts. While back then it was RVS (which I had no idea existed ) now, it's closer to the deadline. And Ragnarokio is also defending boberz. So... I'm not changing my vote yet.

First of all, bandwagoning is not a scumtell. By bandwagoning me, Boberz and Ragnarokio (and Equinox too) managed to do what I could not - getting discussion going. Forcing me to defend myself. Not that the cases were particularly good, but they made me talk, which is what people want. Secondly, you are saying that they are too suspicious to be scummy. This is wrong. You should read the Too Townie fallacy. Basically what you are saying is a contradiction, and is also based on WIFOM. So your suspicions are ill-founded, as is your reasoning for dismissing those suspicions.

I'd suggest not lynching boberz, since he seems genuinely helpful and regardless of alignment, thats a good thing to have around.

I agree with this. UNVOTE:

assuming skn votes you before dying, we technically have two people at L-1.

I find this very...strange. Why are you assuming skn is going to vote for Boberz?

because self preservation is a pretty standard act for players of any alignment. If either you or him are getting lynched, you KNOW that you are town (or you're mafia and just don't want to die), but you don't know that he is town, so its better to save a townie then let yourself be killed.

I don't like this. You are telling skn not to do something, but then when you explain to him what it is, it sounds like you consider it to be a good plan. Voting for self-preservation is almost always a bad thing. That would immediately throw suspicion on skn, and we would hammer him.

I can't think of any townie motivation for this.

VOTE: Ragnarokio

[Ragnarokio]

Sorry, this is my first game on the site, i guess self preservation is frowned upon here, perhaps that was a bad suggestion. It seemed logical to me though. As town, would you rather let yourself be killed, or kill someone else? the other person has a chance at being scum, you don't. As mafia its obvious why you would do it.

@Misrep #1: I can buy that a series of events made it hard for you to ever really continue your attack on Trenchcoat, and i did jump to some conclusions there, but i still think you were perhaps a little too singleminded.

@Misrep #2: I mean its bad to only have one suspect in a game. I'd consider it suspicious at least, and i do. You were able to say you were suspicious of substrike without attacking him or even really have a case on him by repeating his name a lot when mentioning who you're suspicious of.

#Misrep #3: I'm not saying rekindling discussion isn't productive, but it does allow you to stand back while others do work. Saying "What does everyone else think?" rather than "I think this.". I understand you say you didn't have anything to say, but it still attributes to what i'm finding scummy about you.

[Pizzaplate]

Requesting votecount

My opinion has not changed, and I feel as if my vote should stay where it is. I've made my case and I see no reason why it should have expired by now. Also I have school, though today is friday so I can be more active the next couple of days. I'm tired right now, though, and will catch up tomorrow after breakfast.

[skn27]

I see what you mean ragna. But, I feel that by changing my vote from somebody I am suspicious of to somebody else just to get them lynched instead of me getting lynched would probably be more suspicious. Also, I really feel that substrike is scummy and I will not be changing my vote.

[CallMeLiam]

Vote Count

skn27

- 3 - Banana Stickers, Pizzaplate, Substrike22,

boberz

- 1 - KoreanWonderboy

Substrike22

- 1 - skn27

Memnon

- 3 - Ragnarokio, Equinox, boberz

Ragnarokio

- 1 - Memnon

Not Voting

- 0

Five votes lynches, Deadline is 9am

Friday the 10th of September

GMT. A countdown is here

[Substrike22]

I don't fully understand why you think I'm scummy other than not wanting to give up my reason for KWB. To me forcing that issue is kind of scummy, in a role-hunting kind of way. Also you've done nothing but backpedal and post cryptic WIFOM arguments, such as:

Oh, okay thank you to you both. I want to say that if I were trying to protect KWB because he's my scum partner, I don't think I would have made it that obvious. I was only trying to defend him because I understand how he feels since we're both so nooby.

Now that it doesn't matter cause I got the reaction, I was reaction hunting. Votes jumping around early isn't an unusual thing unless you put someone at L-1 or hammer without reasoning. (IC or SE's feel free to correct me on this or disagree)

[Memnon]

Sorry, this is my first game on the site, i guess self preservation is frowned upon here, perhaps that was a bad suggestion. It seemed logical to me though. As town, would you rather let yourself be killed, or kill someone else? the other person has a chance at being scum, you don't. As mafia its obvious why you would do it.

Generally, on this site, people tend not to be keen on self-preservation, since that is a key scum motive. So if skn hammered to save himself (for example), I personally would become suspicious, and likely start a wagon on him on Day 2. If that succeeded (we are assuming skn to be town here), then that would leave us with 4 townies dead, and we would be in Lylo. That is a pretty costly decision.

[Ragnarokio]

Yes, obviously if self preservation just gets the self preserver killed it is a bad move, i was just explaining why it seemed logical to me at the time (because when town does it it helps town (not when people would kill them for it though)).

[Pizzaplate]

Now that it doesn't matter cause I got the reaction, I was reaction hunting. Votes jumping around early isn't an unusual thing unless you put someone at L-1 or hammer without reasoning. (IC or SE's feel free to correct me on this or disagree)

I'm not certain (this being my third game), but whenever you change your vote you should always give some reason (except during the RVS). Putting someone at L-1 is unavoidable for a lynch, and not everyone who hammers is scum, so don't lynch someone based solely on this. Hammering or voting without providing a reason IS scummy though, in my eyes at least.

[Banana Stickers]

Whoa, whoa. Equinox, why are you voting Memnon?

You

were

voting Memnon earlier in the game, then switched to drmyshotty as "part pressure, part policy". Fine. Then, three posts down, you state your top suspects are KWB, skn27, and drmyshotty.

You then re-vote Memnon 4 posts later with absolutely no reason given. Your four posts in between your top suspects given were
1) apology for a V/LA;
2) letting drmyshotty know why he's being replaced;
3) questioning KWB;
4) more questioning KWB, and explaning a few things. And then a Memnon vote. Care to explain why?

Due to Memnon's response and once again going over him in iso, I am reading town and won't be jumping on his wagon.

Also interesting read on boberz...he's voted Memnon as well, with his only reasoning being his 6th post:

Memmon in post #188 "There goes my top suspect" bad bad bad. You should not be looking at your suspect dissapearing as a bad thing it is as if you were targetting a lynch and your lynch has gone and now you might just find the next player is good (he wasnt).

I don't know. I feel that when you get a scum read on a person and that person abruptly replaces out of the game and someone else new comes in, it's VERY disrupting. You're arguing scum based on that person's actions and suddenly that person isn't there anymore to react any more, or for you to question, or to see how they vote. And yes...new person has the same role. But I think you still need to reevaluate that new person. If skn suddenly replaced out of the game I'd be very disappointed as well. I'd probably withdraw my vote but watch the new person like a hawk for awhile.

Also;

A significant amount of his posts are worthless pieces of drivel that are succeeding bore town towards a loss.

boberz, as it stands right now I can say the same for you. 10 posts, only one with any REAL content. I know it hasn't been that long in the game for you, but glass houses and all that.

[Pizzaplate]

Let's not free memnon of all suspicion here, as he's been rather roundabout on his attacks and activity as an SE, which to me is scummy. (since it happened in the summer when I believe he had more free time.) If I'm wrong feel free to correct me.

I really wish someone would just hammer so we can see what role whoever we lynched is, and work from day 2. Personally, I think this day has dragged on long enough. I know this sounds scummy, but this is my opinion right now and I stand by it.

[Substrike22]

Actually given the deadline that sounds town to me. Just saying. I agree we need information.

[Memnon]

I disagree, since we have five more days and Banana Stickers has opened up a new line of thought.

[Equinox]

I'm back.

Whoa, whoa. Equinox, why are you voting Memnon?

You

were

voting Memnon earlier in the game, then switched to drmyshotty as "part pressure, part policy". Fine. Then, three posts down, you state your top suspects are KWB, skn27, and drmyshotty.

My suspects haven't changed. I voted Memnon literally to get a bandwagon moving and to get people talking, which has worked so far. More specifically, I wanted to pull stuff out of KoreanWonderBoy and Memnon. KoreanWonderBoy has vanished altogether now that the spotlight's off him, and I like the tone of Memnon's response, which has netted me a better read from him.

I really wish someone would just hammer so we can see what role whoever we lynched is, and work from day 2. Personally, I think this day has dragged on long enough. I know this sounds scummy, but this is my opinion right now and I stand by it.

The day has dragged, but the situation right now warrants a few more days of discussion. As Memnon says, Banana Stickers has pointed out something in my behavior, and I'm about to point some scum I want lynched today.

So, who's scum?

Unvote, Vote: KoreanWonderBoy

KoreanWonderBoy waffled in his first list of reads. skn27 has also done the same thing, so this is probably just a newbie mistake, but not being able to accuse somebody is also a newbie scum mistake. Scum know people are townie, and this knowledge makes it difficult to accuse them (Stoofer's Syndrome). Setting this particular action aside as noteworthy.

Ten hours later, KoreanWonderBoy has gone from calling skn27 scummy to "I think you are innocent." He starts tying himself to skn27 here with the "I empathize with you" move, and he continues and again with this a few days later.

This is straight-up buddying, and given that he's waffled his way for a while now, I think he's new to being scum.

KoreanWonderBoy did answer my first question here, but I'm not satisfied with the answer. He has yet to answer my second question, and now that we've all piled on Memnon instead, he has disappeared:

Last visited: Sat Sep 04, 2010 6:26 pm

Lynch him today, please.

[Equinox]

EBWOP:

Correction. My suspects have changed. Knock skn27 off the list of suspects in my quote above.

[Pizzaplate]

I do find it some of Kwonderboy's behavior strange.
Now that you've pointed it out, I don't really see any reason why skn would be scummier than Kwonderboy. Both have been confusing to me, both have been newby (Not meant to be an insult. Just an observation. Also not saying it's scummy, just something you have in common.) I'm not abandoning my attack on skn.

Banana has pointed it out. Voting memnon was rather strange. You got a bandwagon going as well. What I find rather strange, though, is boberz.

I've finally gotten around to analyzing this.
Kwonderboy, though I don't know his role, is going in the direction where I'm going.
I'd like for you all to take a moment to view boberz in iso.

He pushes one attack on memnon, and nothing else. No wait, he pushes something else. He tells everyone to bandwagon. Now bandwagonning gets someone lynched, correct. Bandwagonning for the sake of bandwagonning, though, is a terrible thing. Basically, you're just disregarding everyone else's (mostly) valid arguments and voting on the person (or one of the people) with the most votes, because "If everyone else finds him scum, then he must be scum!". Appeal to majority? No thanks.

Now the strange thing is that I now also find Kwonderboy scummy, and yet he's voting for the guy I find the most scummy. But scum are allowed to vote each other, so I won't dismiss the possibility they're both scum.

I'm going to go ahead and

unvote

Vote: boberz

P.S. Equinox, who do you find second-scummiest then?

[skn27]

Now that it doesn't matter cause I got the reaction, I was reaction hunting. Votes jumping around early isn't an unusual thing unless you put someone at L-1 or hammer without reasoning.

You put me at L-2 for no reason and when I asked you to explain your reason for voting for me, you didn't.
What did you find while reaction hunting? O.o
That I voted for you after giving a reason for it?

[CallMeLiam]

Bumping the vote count