Newbie 985 Game over

[Kalofer]

why did you hammer nashi without letting him say anything abe? You must understand that that was an extremely scummy move and was in a small part a reason why we were voting for him.

[Excedrin]

Vote Count

tvellalott (1): Abe27342

not voting: tvellalott, Kalofer
alive: 3 majority: 2

[Abe27342]

Wasn't the best move kal, I agree. I actually thought nashi was scum--he acted a lot scummier than tvell, and I really believed you were town, so I didn't want my vote on you much longer. Day 3 also really wasn't getting anywhere.
If it helps, I immediately attempted to clear you, which is quite a bold move to make as both town and scum. Town for obvious reasons, but if I scum would I really want a cleared person on lylo? Up to you to make that call.
Either way, where is tvell?

[tvellalott]

Rather than write a huge post full of quotes, I’m going to try and break this down into points in the order they occurred and refer to post # and page #.
1) I’d like to point out post #97 on page 4. Here DavidParker tells me to play with some originality. I really took this to heart. You can see after this that I pretty much went out of my way to mess with heads. I really don’t regret anything I’ve done. The reason I’m pointing this out is because if anything is going to work against me here it is this early stuff. Kalofer, remember that at that point this was still my first game.
2) #237 on page 10. Around this point I first called town on you Kalofer. I’ve stuck with that gut feeling all the way through. Just after this, Abe says his gut also says you are town…
3) Around page 14 I started thinking NashiNashi was scummy. Obviously in retrospect I know that’s wrong, but it shows that yesterdays lynch of NashiNashi didn’t come out of nowhere.
4) Looking back I can see I was suspicious of Abe for most of day one. In fact my vote was on him at the end of day one. Regardless, we can see that despite the modkill stuff I wasn’t involved in lynching DavidParker.
5) Day 2 was mostly fluff really. I honestly believe Nikanor was lynched completely by fluke. However, I did notice that once again I was FOSing Abe. In all honesty I don’t think Abe thought I was going to hammer Nikanor. Since he’s vote was second it is clear bussing. Perhaps he didn’t realise it was at L-1… I don’t know. Unvoting at that point to hammer FakeGod would have been extremely scummy too.
6) Day 3 we see FakeGod voting back and forth between Kalofer and NashiNashi. I should have picked up on it more then. I admit I was slightly tunnelled on Nashi myself. Regardless, he clearly though you were scummy yesterday Kalofer, but today he is sure you’re town? Yesterday he thought I was pro-town but now I’m certainly the scum? He was also very keen to use that mislynch, especially since no one was voting for him…
7) As you’ve already pointed out Kalofer, Abe hammered within a few hours of me bringing Nashi to L-1, before Nashi even had a chance to anything.
8) That night we see that FakeGod is killed and Abe opens the day by saying “I’m sorry about hammering Nashi, but he was pretty darn scummy (I think we can all agree). Well of course we all agree since the only people left are people who voted for him. This was obviously the plan. He then votes for me despite calling me town all of yesterday and you scummy on the grounds that if you’re scum you deserve to win, what the fuck is that? It all makes sense when you take into account that I've called you town the whole game. I'm clearly never going to vote for you. I think FakeGod was killed because he was have seen how obviously scum Abe is after yesterdays actions and he knows it.

Anyway, after reading through all 30 pages again I can see a clear path of scummy behaviour through this whole game.

[tvellalott]

EBWOP: Point 6 I meant Abe was voting back and forth.

[Abe27342]

Just sayin', I just realized I know Fake IRL. lol. but I didn't know that until today, so don't worry no cheating going on. small world, eh?
Anyway, I'm going to explain my behavior yesterday in case neither of you caught my semi explanation before.
Kalofer just leaks town as I've heard other people put it. I may have voted him yesterday and sheeped fake (sorry about that) but after his reaction I knew he was town. Also, nobody hammered him, so there was no real reason to take my vote off of him. In the end, I realized nobody was going to lynch kal, and I'd really rather have him around for endgame as a clear, which I made sure to establish right at the beginning of the day, so I decided to hammer Nashi.
As to my saying we should use the mislynch, that's what I truly believe, as long as town has a good reason to kill the person with the mislynch. The error I was clearly making was killing someone I thought was town, just to confirm they were town--even though it sounds absurd when you say it, lots of people subconsciously fall into this trap. The cold hard logic also made sense, even though everything about what kal said seemed townie. I'm all for using a mislynch; just not on a town player. That's why I hammered nashi. Nashi was scummy.
Also, tvell, your point about how fake was killed because he would have seen how obvious it was I was scum is absurd. Any of us would have killed Fake as scum simply because he was the most clear. Nobody FoSed him. The only time scum wouldn't kill a clear is when they are wifoming, and clearly that didn't go on here (He's dead and confirmed townie).


Anyway, Your points about d2, I don't remember FoSing fakegod d2. I was on nik all the way. I know I FoSed him d1, but I don't believe d2.

Tvell, at your first point, I didn't come out of nowhere and agree with you, 100 posts earlier I said this:

Ahh, Kalofer, yeah, I misread his post. I thought FakeGod was calling me a lurker, which he wasn't. His lack of scum-hunting is still something to be worried about, however.
As to Nikanor voting Kalofer, I'm going to go check out Kalofer's posts again, because I haven't found him very suspicious though. I think largely the reason of that was him defending a few people, but that could (as Nikanor pointed out) be a psychological play.

I believe that should cover all of your points attacking me. I'm not going to argue with your points defending yourself, because they're true.

[Abe27342]

^^that quote is on page 6.

[tvellalott]

The whole thing stinks.
Your explanation for jumping back and forth between Kalofer and Nashi makes no sense. He was spewing town-reads? Why not take a stand and try to convince FakeGod to stop tunnelling? It seems you sheeped FakeGod until you got the opportunity to hammer.
You believe in lynching someone as long as they have a good reason? History shows us your good reasons SUCK. You say you wanted to hammer Kalofer because you were sure he was town?
...

The most telling thing is your actions today and your explanation for it. Let me get this straight. You confirmed Kalofer by risking losing this game?
You even admit that 'you'd rather have him around then FakeGod'. Scum-slip much? You mention WIFOM in the same breath.

Don't talk absolute rubbish.

VOTE: Abe27342

[Abe27342]

1) Nashi/Abe - for now I see either of the 2 having an equal chance of being scum mostly due to the fact that tvell and Fake, both of whom were critical in the lynching of a scum have a higher chance of being town.
2)Fake/Tvell - Once again, I can't decide who is scummier than the other but both seem relatively town (if I choose to disregard my paranoid feelings) as both have been critically involved in the lynching of a scum.

There are 5 people left now, one of which is a scum. Up until D2 I thought FakeGod was a more likely candidate due to the reasons I mentioned, as well as the peculiar tendency of asking people to not lynch the most scummy person under the reason of "we'd get more information if we lynch someone less scummy". Yet FakeGod also have led the lynching of Nik. It is still possible that he is the scum who have gained a good deal of credibility by doing this, but right now I'm really leaning town on him. The only other strange thing is that being THIS active, I found it strange that the mafia killed Zach over FakeGod last night. You'd think FakeGod is the biggest scum threat right now.

Right now my top FOS is Tv. I have read town in the first two days thinking lots of his behavioru was based on being new at Mafia, a bit like Kalefor or myself. Yet out of all three of us who played pretty badly, he's the only one who self-confessed to be a more regular player. So in that case, I wonder how much of the over the top hissy fits were for show.

FakeGod is not the biggest scum threat at all, he lynched Nik on a lurking basis and because of his gut feeling which I consider lucky, the only special thing about Fake is how he latches onto a person and just doesn't let go. If he was the biggest scum threat he'd be right in voting for me which he isn't. I find this post flawed (and the spelling mistakes make me think you were typing in a hurry?) and as a result will vote for you.

VOTE: NashiNashi

THERE YOU GO, I JUST LEFT A PERSON ON L-1, IS THAT BIG ENOUGH REASON FOR SOMEONE TO HAMMER ME NOW???

Hmmm…. You vote for NashiNashi because you want to be lynched and because of spelling errors… This put NashiNashi briefly to L-1 but then…

UNVOTE: NashiNashi

I've just had a revelation!!!
Either Fake is one of the biggest idiots ever, or he's scum. I mean seriously, who would start and push (and I mean PUSH!) a wagon on a lurker, that requires a hell of a lot of belief doesn't in it, and those are the things about starting a wagon on a lurker, you don't truly believe it and you don't truly wanna kill the guy do you? You just want to add pressure. But Fake didn't JUST add pressure, he pushed it to the end. Furthermore when continually criticised by me he finally said it was a "gut" feeling. AND HE STILL KEPT PUSHING FOR THE WAGON. and now when Nik flipped scum we all think he's town and I'm guessing that's exactly what he wants us to think. Let's recall Nik's dying words: "good luck town, you're gonna need it", an implication of a hidden threat. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if Nik (an SE) told Fake to start the wagon on him in night 1 and thus gain permanent town cred. Then Zach is nightkilled both to probably frame me AND because zach was a pretty reasonable guy who was an IC AND also questioned Fake and as such would perhaps be a bigger threat to Fake if left alive than me. Then there is the fact that Nik voted for Fake at the end without saying anything that might give the whole operation away, thus making himself seem scummier AND giving more town cred to Fake.

VOTE: FakeGod

I WILL DIE WITH THIS BELIEF!!!!

Again, you reference your own lynching after your revolation. You openly admitted during day phase one that you use the “Lynch me now, I DON’T CARE!!!!” defence to stop yourself from being lynched. Now you’re doing it again. Fake replies to this and destroys your last theory. So you…

You know tvell I have NEVER seen you come into any contact with nikanor excluding the hammering you did on him. I am right now seeing this to be a large scum tell because it somehow seems to fit your psychology ( to me at least) but more importantly because of what you said in #612, which goes something like this: "I was also framed", but I don't think you were framed, I think you're trying to build sympathy out of my misery. You hammered Nik to gain town cred and so that people could forget the FoS's on you and you killed Zach because he wanted to push the most for your lynch and because it would frame me. So right now I think you have a fairly large chance to be scum and I tihnk your lynch will be more useful than mine, but I guess I won't be able to convince Fake or Abe who don't seem to be very much into the digging deep business.

Vote:Tvellalot

You also seem pretty smug to me this day as opposed to yesterday and the day before that when you were raving like a lunatic.
So while I still support a Fake lynch I admit that the possibility of him being town is weighing on me and if he is town, I don't think we'd get very far (because we've basically done the mafia's work for them). I think town could learn a lot more from a Tvell lynch on the other hand.

You know Kalofer, I DID interact with Nikanor, though I admit it was minimal. I’ve already explained this too. During day one I was pretty sure he was town. He seemed very pro-town, even with the lynching of DP. Day 2 he was hardly here to interact with. I didn’t lynch him because I thought he was scum, but because I thought FakeGod was more useful to town. Turned out to be a very wise choice. I don’t want people to forget my FOS’s and I’ve repeatedly mentioned them. Remember WHY they FOS’ed me. Because of my wishy washy voting and crazy posts. That isn’t the case at this point of the game. Now I’m being calm and analytic. As for being ‘smug’, well maybe a little bit. I did hammer the roleblocker by fluke.
The point here is that YOU are now the one raving like a lunatic and wishy washy voting.
I’m not going to hammer you, yet. But I’ve lost my town-certainty with you.

You seem so desperate NOT to get lynched Kalofer that it's hard not to let doubts about your townieness creep in...

@Kalofer Pity that in order for that to work you shouldn't have told anyone that you are requesting modkill to get hammered.

I have stated my reason why I don't want to vote for Kalofer. Tvellalott, what's your reason?

Some like... I'VE BEEN SAYING I THINK HE IS TOWN THIS ENTIRE GAME.
I'm tired of this.

You're much scummier than Kalofer NashiNashi.

3 sequential posts of tvell from yesterday. Tvell, can you answer a question without getting indignant?

[Abe27342]

Tvell, my opinions changed. I had an epiphany of a sort. I took my vote off of kal when I realized that. Fake wasn't gonna stop tunneling. He's actually pretty stubborn ;p (sorry if you're reading this ^^)
When did I say I wanted to hammer kalofer because I was sure he was town?
When did I say I'd rather have kalofer around than fakegod? I'd be happy with either of them, because they'd both be clears IMO.

I did confirm kalofer in a risky play, but hey, less risky than the chance of 50% autoloss you faced when hammering nik, hmm? I've said this a million times and I'll say it again, I had every bit of confidence that kalofer was town coming into today. Why else would I immediately throw up a vote on you tvell?
Please, if you're going to make accusations against me at least quote the part where I say it or say what post that's from.

[Kalofer]

This is it, the pressure has been too much for me and usually when a lot of pressure builds up on me (as you may have noticed) I say "F*** IT" and try to not give a damn and this is what I will do again now. In all honesty I cannot find something definite that will make one of you scummier than the other. To all, know that I may as well be flipping a coin when doing this but either my inability to play this game correctly or overall stupidity/blindness prevents me from accurately determining who of the 2 here are scum. There is Abe's seemingly innocent bussing of Nik at the start which can now be taken to be suspicious or innocent (it's hard for me to decide), then there's also the fact that Tvell hardly said anything to Nik at all. There is also Abe's flying under radar to take into account and his similar behaviour to that of Nik (which fits as a newb would follow in the footsteps in one he considers more experienced). But then there is Tvell's unusual/aggressive behaviour too, which I also cannot determine if it is town or scum. And now here comes the crucial bit: Abe votes for Nik 2nd when 4 votes make the majority, Tvell hammers Nik. Voting 2nd doesn't seem suspicious at all but it's pretty important when 4 votes are the majority and it's the ideal moment to vote when you want to bus your buddy without drawing attention and even more fascinating is Abe's reason, a copy of Fake's: GUT TELL (TO HELL WITH GUT TELLS, hey that kinda rhymes ..I suck) anyway. Then there is the hammer, Tvell could have done that to gain some much needed town cred and if he is scum and has, then DAMN YOUR TOWN CRED but I don't think he hammered him for that, but because he really is town.

So if you disregard what I wrote, which like most things that I write is badly punctuated and hard to follow, you will see that I am now going to vote for:
VOTE: Abe27342

The future of this game is in God's hands now and forgive me if I fail town. Mod, it's all yours now.

[Abe27342]

GG then, Tvell's scum.

I very very very strongly disagree with you on to hell with gut tells. Gut tells are what win you games; I hardly ever find myself underthinking a game. I always overthink it, end up not going with my gut, and losing. Scumtells are more BS IMO. Some of them are valid, but there is no universal scumtell. They vary from player to player.

[Kalofer]

And that is why this game is IMO essentially probability. Too bad. Sorry Abe, and everyone else.

[Abe27342]

It's not probability, although occasionally math enters the game.

[Kalofer]

Ok it's not exactly probability but it's a guessing game, a game with no certainties. Aren't gut tells a form of higher brain function whereby people are determined as to whether or not they are scum simply by how the person responds to their statements. Aren't they ultimately a form of opinion? It would be cool to have a game where people only talk and by a given deadline each votes according to gut tell and a similar one involving scum-tells to compare accuracy though unfortunately it would be hard to make this a fair experiment.
Well it's pretty late here and I have to go. Sorry again for the mistake I've made if what you're telling is the truth Abe (though I have no reason to not believe you) and see you tomorrow.

[Abe27342]

YOU WON'T SEE ME TOMORROW CAUSE YOU'LL BE DEAD
LOLS
Oh, mod is this discussion against the rules? Sorry if it is, but game's over sooo yeah

[DavidParker]

i thought abe was scum too by his erratic play on the last day.

and voting at the very start of the day in LYLO is not smart. doesnt matter how sure u think kalofer is scum.

[DavidParker]

is town* i mean.


Also, I was so sure Nashi would flip scum

He reaked of scum compared to the last game I played with him when he was town.

[NashiNashi]

Same to you, David.8D As for Tv - I KNEW IT! Can't agree more with Abe about the gut tells. It is so easy to over think in games like this, especially for a newbie game where inexperience and scumminess are frequently present in the same way. Tv was inconsistent as hell, but somehow people just wasn't picking it up at all. Not saying that I did a superb job at articulating it, though.

[tvellalott]

Same to you, David.8D As for Tv - I KNEW IT! Can't agree more with Abe about the gut tells. It is so easy to over think in games like this, especially for a newbie game where inexperience and scumminess are frequently present in the same way. Tv was inconsistent as hell, but somehow people just wasn't picking it up at all. Not saying that I did a superb job at articulating it, though.

This is exactly why you had to die.

[Excedrin]

Oh, mod is this discussion against the rules? Sorry if it is, but game's over sooo yeah

Discussion post game doesn't matter (consider lying about your align postgame, it's fun). Good game.

Final Vote Count

Abe27342 (2): tvellalott, Kalofer
tvellalott (1): Abe27342

not voting:
alive: 3 majority: 2

By the way, I'd like to thank you all for not flaking. This is the first game I've modded that required zero replacements. I'm so happy I could cry that was awesome! Thanks!

[NashiNashi]

Great job Tvellalott by the way. I know I gave you bucket loads of flake through out it, but you are one hell of a good player and you worked for the win. Congrats!

Also goes to FakeGod, who I think did an incredible job. So much so that I'm amazed he lived that long. 8D

[tvellalott]

Thank you NashiNashi. Clearly I grew as a player throughout this game. I was faced with a difficult decision when it was a FakeGod or Nikanor hammer. I figured if there was any power roles in the game I would have saw some tell on them, yet no one seemed to be sure of anyone. Since it was extremely likely I would have been lynched the next day if I had hammered on FakeGod anyway, I took a punt.
That was obviously the turning point. I killed Zachrulez because he had always been suspcious of me and because it put some suspicion on Kalofer, then I went about getting you lynched NashiNashi. It was reasonably easy. I knew Fake or Abe would hammer and had planned to kill the person that didn't hammer, which I did. Kalofer, I'm afraid I played you from the start. Obviously I knew you were town. I thought I could slowly turn you into an Allie if I constantly defended you. That coupled with the hammer on Nikanor is what won me this game.

Don't feel bad Kalofer. If you gut is telling you to lynch someone you should do it. Come and play EM with me sometime. I have the same username.

[Nikanor]

Come and play EM with me sometime.

No way, come and play with Excedrin and I on IRC!

I think the hammer on me was the right choice as I was going down one way or another, but if there were any power roles we'd have been screwed.
The best thing town did in this game, in my opinion, was to keep active and hound anyone who didn't. You also did a good job figuring out that FakeGod was town, which really hurt us (me in particular, considering I was lynched because of it >_>).

I've found that gut is a better scum-compass than evidence, but maybe that's just because I am terrible at finding any evidence.

[Zachrulez]

So yeah, wow. This game taught me a lot. (Which it should have done when sotty did it in gonzo.) Never presume a player clear based on what would appear to be an optimal situation with a split wagon. The presumption of scum being cleared can allow them to easily ride to endgame.

Keep in mind though that in the newbie setup, busing your roleblocker like that can really screw the pooch if you're in the prs setup. Cop and Doc in day 3 alive is pretty much an autowin for town in most situations.

Unless you thought it was likely they didn't exist?