Newbie 989 - Dead Serious Game Over!

[Espeonage]

http://67.222.17.61/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13990

Me as a scumbag.

[Trendall]

either I get that scum meta or other people post properly.

What exactly was improper about my post?

[Rioku243]

Day one notes:
-Still not liking that Esp

knew

Nobody was town.

-Also just noticing Mallows post

I can never get a good read on ICs because they devote themselves to helping everyone which may lure newbies into a reading them as town. I'm not saying you're mafia Espeonage, I'm just saying that if you are, you won't fool me.

which to me sounds like "I'm gonna act like I'll always be suspicious of you, but I really won't do much about it." I'm thinking this could be a form of the Vote:town Fos:scum buddy theory. Mallow later votes for Esp, but no one else is so it was a safe vote to try and distance scum buddies.

-I like the way Trendall posts his defenses. They're clear and seem genuine. But I don't see much offense until he attacks Nobody, which is what everyone was doing. Not that there was a whole bunch of offense throughout Day one.

- I don't like how Esp just kind of shoots down mine and Scrambles arguments with "lol we shouldn't be discussing this here" at the top of page 4. But as I said earlier I don't really see that as a scum tell just kind of rude.

-Wait, wait, wait wait... Funky's only content post of day one.

Mr Nobody:

He's been very defensive, doing a couple of OMGUS votes, but I am not sure if that is actually a suspicious thing, as everyone is defensive for themselves if voted against. Still doesn't stop me from seeing scummy behavior here though.

Scrambles:

I cannot justify why, but I just have a bad feeling about you, sorry. It may be your avatar, or maybe I'm just reading your posts wrong, but you definitely seem scummy to me xD.

Esp:

The whole "teaming up" with Nobody in the early start of the topic, on top of the now, seemingly know-it-all IC, makes me suspicious against you.

Anyone else:

There's not anyone else I've really "noticed" being scummy yet, but I am still suspicious of everyone.

All-in-all I really don't see anyone I can fully vote on, as I am still very torn.

Suspicious of 3 people. One of them being the top suspect of Day 1. But no vote. You say you're very torn but that's fence sitting. And why is noticed in quotation marks? I find that strange. I wish I would have noticed this earlier.

Day 2-
-Esp vanishes. while supposedly doing a reread. Which I don't think we ever got the analysis of.

-Funky appears to defend himself and vote mallow with the reason

mallow, you have some good points in your post, and I agree, Bob does need to make an impression fast, and he did that by voting for you. However, it seems as if you would've actually wanted to vote for him, but decided to vote for Espeonage instead, so it wouldn't seem like an OMGUS vote. However you did this, without putting up any points as to what Espeonage did that was scummy.

VOTE: mallowgeno

Which to me reads, "I'll change my mind as soon as the heats off you but I need people to think I'm against you"

-Bob joins the game and quickly comes off to everyone as protown. I find the way he led the town against mallow kind of scary though. Because Mallow flipped scum it might make him seem almost confirmed town but that might be exactly what he wanted. The aggressiveness of it makes me think he is really scum hunting though.

-I don't like how funky and I were the only ones Mallow called town. It makes me slightly more suspicious of Funky but the case could also be used against myself. I know my alignment but none of you do so that point doesn't hold much weight to anyone besides me.

-I'm also not really sure how to take Bob's reaction to my hammer vote. It was a mistake but he bought it really fast, especially considering he was attacking Mallow for his quick hammer the day before. Trendall's reaction was the one I expected out of almost everyone.

Day 3-
-Hey look Esp's back! And he provides some crap logic about process of elimination to try and vote me!And he spells my name wrong...twice.

-I still don't like Bob's IC set up there... but he has explained it.

-Ok this post right here is giving me red flags.

You are more dangerous as scum in lylo as you would have a better chance of confising the town than Funky. Consider it a compliment.

I, myself would rather not confuse the town so I don'/t know HOW that is a compliment. So I'm either seeing that as a trap to try and set me up by agreeing to it, or that's how you're trying to get the town to play. Either way is upping your scumminess to me.

-Funky extreme buddying up to Bob. Bob notices this and calls Funky out on it though which makes Bob seem more pro town and Funky seem more like scum to me. Funky continues to fence sit and follow Bob around by listing Esp as his top scum read but not voting him until he is pressured because he didn't vote.

-I also don't like Esp bringing up his meta to try and defend himself. I don't think meta is a good argument. At all. Especially if brought up by the person themselves.

People

Funky:

My top pick for scum right now. I'm thinking he's trying to active lurk too much. He's doing a lot of fence sitting, trying not to stand out until he's pressured. Then he follows Bob. I don't like it.

Esp:

He's feeling really scummy to me as well. His lack of content while still trying to look productive is starting to catch up. He was able to hide it through IC posts on day one but it's like he's not even trying anymore. Esp, we aren't mind readers. Please explain why you've determined Bob and Trendall as town and what exactly in Scrambles ISO puts me infront of Funky for your vote.

Bob:

Most likely protown. I don't know for sure though. His town leading is what's making me the most suspicious.

Trendall:

I'm most confident in my read that he's town. He seems like he's trying to think from both perspectives to find the motivations behind peoples posts instead of just jumping to conclusions.


I'll end this post with my vote. VOTE: Funky

[Espeonage]

You are mis repping my lylo post. What I am saying is if you are the last scum you would be harder to catch than funky hence why it is a semi compliment.

bob feels town because of his objectiveness which i actually said. And trendall has just played to the book. The lack of points against him kinda makes that one obvious.

[boberz]

What exactly was improper about my post?

You weren't exactly rioku were you?

[boberz]

Eh, Leave him for now. We have an early day 2 wagon to start conversationizing off.

Remond me why you did not follow through on this?

[boberz]

Mallow helped his team significantly more than he realised I think

[Espeonage]

Eh, Leave him for now. We have an early day 2 wagon to start conversationizing off.

Remond me why you did not follow through on this?

Because I lost track of and forgot this game until I was prodded.

[boberz]

Oh yeah, that is true.

unvote

...considering something

[Rioku243]

Esp- apologies for my apparent misrep but that's how I took that phrase. You should really be clearer in what your posts are supposed to mean. By layin it out as a compliment, if I agreed, you'd pretty much have my as scum right there. It looked like a trick.

Bob- You didn't specify that you were waiting on me. And now that I've posted my reread, you haven't commented on it, despite continuing to attack Esp. And that post saying Mallow helped his team more than he realized is actually quite strange to me. Can you explain it please?

[Espeonage]

I think he is meaning that the mallow lynch left town with a bucket of wifom and nothing else to go on.

[boberz]

I wasn't just meaning you in terms of reread I thought someone else had promised one as well. But yeah you can read, and I can read your read, it's quite nice. In fact I used you as a good example to Trendall.

But honestly, I think you read it was a proper reread (when most people say they are rereading they actually just iso themselves and rehash a case from a day or two ago) but you did not. I am not going to vote for you today I am happy that you exist. I think you are wrong to be suspicious of me because of leading town, look at how disorganised and disastrous town had been in day 1 it needed some leading. I like leading town I try and do it when I can. I never just sit back. I like to lead wagons even if I am not leading the hwole town.

---

Basically I think it is either Esp or Funky. I shouted funky in my first post, and after I had calmed down from my initial outburst. Funky was in a bad place on the mallow wagon imo. And he has tried to buddy me. And he has done some other strange things. That I and others have noticed.

Esp has played poorly and imo does not seem interested in finding out everyone's alignment. This is what caught me in my only game as scum and is something evident in his scum meta game (nut not the town one I know, dont think I am an expert in Esp's meta). It is a more solid tell than anything you will find in the wiki, because it is something that cannot actually be avoided properly (only acted away) whereas things like OMGUS can just be avoided completely.

However I do not think Esp would deliberatley desert a game as an IC, meaning I doubt he had scumtalk (where he would have been lambasting his partner) or indeed sent in a night action, blah blah blah. But then I didnt imagine him forgetting a game as town either, but less so.

In summation: idk

[Trendall]

--------------------------

Day One

RVS doesn't mean you can go around putting your votes wherever willy nilly.

What? That's exactly what RVS is. Espeonage himself put a vote in for Rioku because Suicine is a better Pokemon. Scrambles put in a vote for no reason. Rioku put in a vote for no reason. RandomMaster put in a vote for no reason. Mr. Nobody put in a vote for no reason. I put in a vote for no reason. MilkAndCookies put in a vote for no reason. Espeonage did not call a single one of these people out, apart from Scrambles, who he later goes on to form a different argument against.

I love Newbie games.
Mr. Nobody is town.

Don't like 'Mr. Nobody is town'. The only way anyone would be that sure of something would be if they were scum.

He is a newbie. The wording of this and the fact that he was a mess of posts then posted this nicely and left it means he is town. Were he scum there would have been some more trying to cover himself as newbies do. Were he an experienced player not in his first game then it would be null. It is a preliminary read but I am fair sure he is town.

Same thing here. Espeonage says 'he is town', and that he would do something else if he were scum. From what I can tell, Espeonage feigns uncertainness at the end of his post by changing his opinion to 'I am fair sure he is town'

It might be slightly newb that he admitted to an OMGUS but the fact that he admitte to trying to start a bandwagon is rubbing me the wrong way...

I don't see what's suspicious about trying to start a bandwagon during RVS. Plus, Mr Nobody was new and probably didn't realise that the word 'bandwagon' has negative connotations to it. If you were comfortable with him admitting to an OMGUS, you shouldn't have taken an issue with him trying to start a bandwagon either. You made an argument against Mr. Nobody for no real reason here, which I don't like very much.

you are now buddying up to Trendall and defending him when he should be doing that himself. SE's should know better than to do that, especially this early when there is little case that needs defending.

I pointed this out earlier in the game as well. I had defended myself quite a lot before that point. Then Scrambles jumped in and agreed with me that Rioku's argument wasn't great. I think that that whole argument was pretty much over and I had successfully defended myself, when Espeonage comes along with this quote. By the looks of it, Espeonage did not like the suspicion on me being over at that point, and tried to get Scrambles off it so that it would continue.

@STDD-As Esp said, a newbie would probably buddy up, regardless of town or mafia. However SE's should know better. I'm not voting you yet, but your needle is turning toward the scum side.

Mallowgeno completely agrees with Espeonage's non-case against Scrambles here.

@ Mallow:
1. I'm crying inside

What's this all about?

Ok IC moment here.

Throughout this site you will se many people refer so town so and so or scum so and so. What people mean when they say this is that should player X be town then this applies. Or vice versa for scum soandso.

What I am saying in my post is that if Trendall is Town then what I am saying holds true from what I can see.

Get me?

I was never happy with this explanation. I know people do say 'town X' or whatever, but Espeonage's use of 'town Trendall' was far too ambiguous. If he's then defended himself by using IC reasoning, I really don't like that.

[@Esp:]

Honestly, I think it's a touch hypocritical you call me out on 'trying to get on his good side.'

Yep

I find your defending Trendall slightly scummy.

I still don't know what's scummy about defending someone. Either Rioku is a town player with lots of poor arguments, or he's scum.

@STDD- Which do you think is more likely? Esp/Nobody scum pair, or Esp being scum and Nobody being town. And let's say by some chance you're wrong and Esp IS town. Don't you think that losing that teaching would make the scum's job easier? I'm not trying to defend Esp's actions, but in general. I don't think trying to lynch an IC on the first day is the best thing for town/

Having said that, I think I get a really towny vibe from Rioku around this point for not wanting the strongest player on paper lynched day one.

I can never get a good read on ICs because they devote themselves to helping everyone which may lure newbies into a reading them as town. I'm not saying you're mafia Espeonage, I'm just saying that if you are, you won't fool me.

Why does mallow say this? At first, I thought he was just being an arrogant town player, but now that he's flipped scum AND confessed that he's not a very good scumhunter, I think that this throws a lot of suspicion onto Espeonage.

lol, just lol. This is a newbie game. Two sites rarely have compatible meta. You could grab my meta from elsewhere and it is rather different. As a newbie game you're gonna have to go without unless you want meta on either me. (Which is going to be different because I play anti IC normally.) Or on Mallow.

Don't understand why mallow and only mallow is mentioned in this post.

@mallow: Ties in with that last comment. My response to you is: Good.

Again, what?

Noone is to hammer should he claim VT. It is too early in the day and we can milk more discussion from this.

Agreed

Lol. I don't know how I didn't notice this earlier.

Espeonage is becoming scummy to me as well. All this buddying up isn't doing her favors

Bus

Eh, Leave him for now. We have an early day 2 wagon to start conversationizing off.

Espeonage tries to draw suspicion off of mallow here, and like I think everyone else has said already, Esp makes absolutely no mention of mallow's early hammer at all during day two.

-----------------------------

Day Two

So, basically Trendall, Rioku, me, and Esp are left, because M&C and Funky aren't here. They also haven't been online since their last posts. Therefore, I believe it is safe to say two of us four are scum.

As far as I can tell, this is correct, but correct me if I'm wrong. I think it's a shame that we can metagame like this, but I think that this alone clears Boberz and funky from being scum. That leaves it between me, Espeonage, and Rioku.

In Newbie games the kill is the Mafia's not a specific person's.

@mod: Can you clarify this?

I'm also going to VOTE: Funky because I find it very hard to believe that he has no opinions about ANYTHING after a lynch. It seems he's trying to fly under the radar and fence sit until someone else makes a case. Then he'll agree with it and add another vote to that person.

I think that funky is suffering from the same thing that I'm suffering from, which is being a new player and therefore not really knowing what to say. Certainly in this game and the last game I was in, there were times where I really didn't know either way whether I thought people were scum or not. I'm not one for taking something that I don't think is important and making a big thing of it just for the sake of making myself look like I'm a really good scumhunter. I'm new and relatively experienced and don't have all the answers. From what I can tell, the exact same thing goes for funky. It is definitely possible for a town player to simply not have a concrete opinion on anything, because I've been in that same situation myself.

Second, Esp, How's that reread/analysis thing coming along? I've noticed that you haven't been doing much of an analysis in your posts either. When I read through the thread (since you know, nothing else is going on) all I see from you is a lot of IC teachings. You haven't put a case up against anyone, except for a minor one on Scrambles, which as you admitted yourself wasn't very convincing. I believe you are what you defined as Active Lurking. You only pop up every now and again to give an IC moment every now and then. It seemed like you were upset with Nobody's lynch so early because it would hinder discussion, when you haven't really done anything to increase discussion anyways, even given the extended twilight. The only thing you said during it was that Mallow would be an easy bandwagon to start today, which you didn't even follow through with.

I think that this is definitely a strong argument.

Current Opinions:

Espeonage-Probably scum.

Probably bussing again

Also someone on that wagon should have got off of it when it got to L-1. Why didnt you suggest such a thing Esp, or were you not online at the time?

I agree with this. Espeonage just said 'no one hammer if he's vanilla townie'. Looking back at it, I'm surprised that he didn't encourage anybody to unvote, or unvote himself, especially given his very direct 'this guy is town' posts earlier on during day one.

I'm gonna

vote Espeonage

for now.

wut.

Yep

---------------------------

Day Three

Last scum is Rikou but also may be funky. Boberz is town. He is being objective which is a very towny quality. Trendall feels town but may just be a good scum player.

Again, Espeonage seems way too sure of himself, given that he's not really put in any actual arguments against people.

---------------------------

I think everything else that during day three that I wanted to comment on, I've commented on, although in the time I've been reading, there've been a couple of new posts that I'll need to have a proper look at. Basically, I think that Espeonage is scum, and if not, it'll be Rioku.

[boberz]

That's much better trendall. Big tick gold star, extra tuck from matron.

I can confirm that a mafia team will send the kill rather than a specific player. Meaning your clearence of myself and funky is a bit shaky and I do not want to go down that route. I certainly wont use it to clear myself.

I agree Esp has had little to no analysis (in fact that is the crux of my argument) so we agree. But I do not support the case of Esp being too sure of himself. I have spoken in absolutes a lot through the game as well, nobody has called me on it. I think when you become more experienced/confident you become more prepared to talk in absolutes, it actually helps town in some ways (but this is beside the point). And of course boberz is town

[Trendall]

I have spoken in absolutes a lot through the game as well, nobody has called me on it. I think when you become more experienced/confident you become more prepared to talk in absolutes, it actually helps town in some ways (but this is beside the point). And of course boberz is town

I understand that, but I think if people are going to talk in absolutes, then it's got to be completely obvious that that's what they're doing. I know that people do it, and I've seen other players do this successfully, which is probably why I haven't called you out on it yet. I probably didn't notice because it was just obvious to me that you weren't being entirely literal. Some of Espeonage's posts strike me as really odd though, just from the tone of them. Like I said a lot earlier during the game, personally, you won't see me talking in absolutes, as I think it's my responsibility as a pro-town player to be as clear as I possibly can. I don't think it's everybody else's responsibility to decipher my ambiguities. Too often during this game, Espeonage has said something that's seemed odd, and then expected us to just know that we're interpreting it wrong. I don't think a pro-town player would do that, especially an IC.

[boberz]

I think he is meaning that the mallow lynch left town with a bucket of wifom and nothing else to go on.

Not just that, no wagon analysis, which is the easiest to convince people of conventional 'reads' are much harder to present. Furthermore no real relationship info can be established in 6 pages whatever your other accusors say. It was just overall a really bad day a write off in terms of worth.

---

Cross post

@Trendall, I seem to be interpreting him fine. Absolutes are atually protown in many ways (not applicable to a newbie, but some are) it is certainly not something to discourage. I can see how as a newer player this might look bad but go and have a look at his meta, my meta, 90% of any experienced players meta and they will all do it. I am sorry you are struggling to understand him but i really do not think it is sucmmy.

[Trendall]

Absolutes are atually protown in many ways (not applicable to a newbie, but some are) it is certainly not something to discourage.

As a kind of side point to the actual game, may I ask what ways?

[boberz]

Yeah.

It can be helpful to disguise a cop, otherwise a cop would be the only person dealing in absolutes. This means scum cant find cops and NK a vanilla instead.
It means scum cannot quite work out how seriously you are about them so they under/over estimate you giving you more scope for reads.

As you say though it is off topic. And I wouldnt really expect too many of these more subtle tactics in a newbie.

[Rioku243]

Just noticing something else on Esp... On day one he called Nobody town, feeling very confident then

scum can be certan.........

Hmm...

[boberz]

Sorry can you explain that a bit further. Which post? Or can I ahve the full quote or both quotes.

[Rioku243]

Day one:

I love Newbie games.
Mr. Nobody is town.

Then later on Day 3 he says

scum can be certan.........

When discussing funky saying he wanted to be certain before voting.

Now I believe he just may have incriminated himself a little further.

[Espeonage]

I provided reasoning. Funky was using it as a blanket reason not to vote much. There is a difference.

[boberz]

I don't see that as incriminating, but shall we lynch him and find out?

[funkyzafara]

The difference was I didn't actually say something with certainty, but rather told you that I was unsure. And therefore I didn't want to vote.

[boberz]

Funky not voting in that situation is a pretty scummy thing to do.