Mini 1040 - Everyone's A Critic! [Game Over]

[mykonian]

meaning. I definately meant meaning.

[kunkstar7]

:: VoteCount 1x6 ::

Antihero (1) -

DavidParker

MagnaofIllusion (0) -
RedCoyote (2) -

Stef, danakillsu

danakillsu (1) -

RedCoyote

Jack (2) -

Jack, Xscorpion

Haschel Cedricson (1) -

imaginality

jelly jiggler (0) -

XScorpion (0) -

Stef (3) -

mykonian, Haschel Cedricson, Antihero

imaginality (0) -
mykonian (0) -

DavidParker (1) -

MagnaOfIllusion

Not Voting (1) -

jelly jiggler

With 12 Alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

September 19, 2010 5:00PM EST.

The mod does disappoint me a bit, though. (sorry kunk, it isn't that terrible) ~ sadface =(

I'm going to be unavailable through tomorrow evening, due to moving into dorms.

[XScorpion]

I'm voting Jack.

~Oops, missed the return vote.

[RedCoyote]

So which is it? You disputed and contrasted mykonian by thinking that antihero and dana would be more fitting? Or you were just making a gross generalization regarding these two with no meta behind it?

These positions are not mutually exclusive. I have no meta of either of those players, which is

why

I said I was generalizing them as players that would be easier to lynch than XScorp. What's the problem?

Making a gross generalization about two players based on nothing to make a point against another player to defend said player while this being half your post.

Okay, wait, I think I may have found our disconnect. Antihero and dana weren't the main idea behind that segment, that paragraph. You're coming at this like I was setting the stage for my dana vote, when in reality I was just addressing the XScorp case.

Hmm.. dana posted some now. Do you still think dana is scum? Why?

No, he hasn't. His posts are garbage. He posted that I'm scum because I voted him, and elaborated to say, essentially, I'm being too critical of others. That doesn't help anyone here. He's shirking away from the reason I put him in the spotlight to begin with: I want him to make a move in this game. I don't want him to just react. React to my vote, react to XScorp's posts, react to Jack/HC's questions... etc. Townies, in my opinion, should be inherently curious and suspicious about everyone. When someone doesn't fit that paradigm, I'm going to find out why.

---

Really like mykonian's post 157. It's hard for me to buy that it's entirely a superficial argument, like Stef contends, because the whole "pressure FoS" thing being weak makes sense to me. I don't use FoSs personally, but I don't hate on those that do. Still, it's hard for me to buy using an FoS as pressure, especially so early in the game. I mean, you have a vote for a reason.

I also agree with Stef's post 164. Jelly has been under the radar a little bit, as has imaginality. At least David has came in here and gave us a reason for his lack of a presence.

---

Soooo, what did we learn. If scum has the vig right now, Stef could have been arguing from the point where he knows he is right.
If scum doesn't have the vig right now, Myko could have been arguing from the point where he thought he knew he was right.

Who else had big opinions in the "vig=town" debate?

This doesn't change anything in my mind. No matter what the Vig shakeup was, it's more probable that it landed in a townie's hands. That's, like, the baseline. Once the Mod said that scum couldn't pass the power to other scum, that already made it clear that we couldn't confirm the first Vigilante as town. It's still more likely though, regardless. Afterwards, however, is definitely fair game. There's all sorts of WIFOM in guessing who X would send the power to, and whether or not they are more likely to be scum or not. That's too many assumptions at that point.

---

Lay off Jack, he is definitely town.

I was cool giving you down time due to your migraines, as I know that's a serious thing, but not if you're going to throw crap like this around. What the heck are we supposed to take from this, David? Why not, instead of telling us to confirm Jack, you reckon why it is Stef is bringing his name up? Is it valid? Invalid? I do not like this post at all.

---

dana's latest musings in post 191 are basically all throwaway. He revotes me for some reason, calls Stef's case "not too important to current events", calls Jack town. I don't know why he's so afraid to tell us what he really thinks about this game, because I'm certainly not the center of the universe. There are 10 other people in this game besides me and dana, and saying "Jack is obvtown" and other cases are "not too important" won't cut it for me. Does it cut it for anyone else?

[mykonian]

Redcoyote, if you don't up your play significantly, I would vig you as soon as I got the vig.

Seriously: "does it cut it for anyone else"? Why are you looking for confirmation. Further, you observe Dana's play isn't terrific, but you never reason through why it is scummy. You and I know dana is still quite a new player, so what do your observations say? Then, we have your reaction to David, where you are asking towntells. If you have a serious problem with Jack, this would be a good approach, but seen as you haven't made any points against him, what makes you doubt David?

In short, I have serious problems with your vote. It is on dana, it has been on dana forever, and you simply discard anything dana says. You even have the guts to say this:

He revotes me for some reason, calls Stef's case "not too important to current events", calls Jack town. I don't know why he's so afraid to tell us what he really thinks about this game ...

[RedCoyote]

Seriously: "does it cut it for anyone else"? Why are you looking for confirmation. Further, you observe Dana's play isn't terrific, but you never reason through why it is scummy.

There are times when I think it's beneficial to draw attention to a vote I'm making or a wagon I'm on, and there are times when I'm less sure of myself and I'm more inclined to change my vote than I am to push it. At the moment, I think I'm in the former category. With seemingly every dana post, I feel more comfortable with this vote, more comfortable than it it were anywhere else at the moment. You say I'm looking for confirmation; I say I'm looking for a wagon to form.

You and I know dana is still quite a new player, so what do your observations say?

Don't give me this "poor dana" routine. He's a big boy. He can take a little heat. This isn't some technical, political stance I'm holding over his head. This is a fairly basic request I'm making, and instead of heeding it or even questioning it, he votes me.

Now, the voting is fine, you know, and that's his perogative. What gives me pause is when he's going to ignore the rest of the game, which he clearly has.

Then, we have your reaction to David, where you are asking towntells. If you have a serious problem with Jack, this would be a good approach, but seen as you haven't made any points against him, what makes you doubt David?

David said he wasn't going to be absent for a while due to his condition, but then he comes back about 8 hours later telling people to lay off Jack. So we've got David feeling the need to come defend Jack (why does Jack need defending?) against Stef, out of the blue, but more than that even, it seems sketchy that he made this short post so soon after he asked us to give him time for his condition. I don't think he's lying about his condition, but I don't see why it was necessary to even make that post if he's going to come back a few hours later to Jack's defense.

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP: David said he

was

going to be absent for a while due to his condition

[mykonian]

Then convince me, is that so much to ask? You aren't even trying here.

You and I know dana is still quite a new player, so what do your observations say?

Don't give me this "poor dana" routine. He's a big boy. He can take a little heat. This isn't some technical, political stance I'm holding over his head. This is a fairly basic request I'm making, and instead of heeding it or even questioning it, he votes me.

Compare him to zwet, or empking. Both players aren't really great players. But both are known to be readable, you can tell when they are scum, or when they are town. I won't lynch a bad player, I want to lynch scum. Why is dana scum? I know already one answer to this question: do you too?

[mykonian]

Fine. Now I think about it, you might actually be right, Red. Dana has some problems.

After reading some other games lately (because as you can notice, on this moment I have too much time on my hands), I noticed a player in another game of dana used the "his reads are too confident" argument at the beginning of day 1. Now you may say that this isn't significant, but it is. Dana can't yet know the succes of this argument (as both players aren't yet revealed, the accuser and the accused), so why would he use it here? It might very well be because he doesn't care if its accurate, as long as it is accepted.

Knowing this, iso post 2 of dana looks a lot like an overdefensive post that is mostly aimed at looking like you are scumhunting. Notice also the "do not call this OMGUS" part.

Every post dana has made till now either answers questions, defends him, or is expected. Dana, would you have an explanation for this?

[danakillsu]

Yes, I do have an explanation for this. I am trying to change my playstyle some. I'm considered somewhat of a VI, and I think it's mostly just because I post too much, giving too many of my controversial opinions. So I'm trying to take a more relaxed approach to this game. The similarity between what I said and what someone else said somewhere else is coincidental. I don't even know which game you are referring to.

dana's latest musings in post 191 are basically all throwaway. He revotes me for some reason, calls Stef's case "not too important to current events", calls Jack town. I don't know why he's so afraid to tell us what he really thinks about this game, because I'm certainly not the center of the universe. There are 10 other people in this game besides me and dana, and saying "Jack is obvtown" and other cases are "not too important" won't cut it for me. Does it cut it for anyone else?

I expected better than this from you. Allow me to show everyone else your logical fallacies here. I "revoted" you because the mod did not have my vote in the votecount, and I didn't want to go see if I had already voted you, because I might as well just do it again. I said Stef's case was not too important to current events, because he was not backing it with his vote. What he thinks about someone who has no votes on him, and who he's not voting for, is not very important. And I'm allowed to have townreads. I'm not the only one who's called Jack town. I don't see how what I've said is not "telling you what I really think", and I haven't made you the center of the universe in any way. And your final question is a pretty sad AtE. I think you are capable of far more than this, but thought I couldn't defend against your twisted logic. Feel free to die, scum.

[danakillsu]

And I would back up my first few statements by telling you when and where I got lynched as town, but none of them are recently finished. There are some ongoing and some really old ones.

[mykonian]

And I would back up my first few statements by telling you when and where I got lynched as town, but none of them are recently finished. There are some ongoing and some really old ones.

It's ongoing. Which is why I don't understand why you would copy from there if you don't know the accuracy nor the intention of that argument. I thought it was a large normal.

[Jack]

jelly, imagine, david...I guess this game is going to go at a slow pace.

[mykonian]

And you forgot Jack.

Now, lets assume this hypothetical situation. Our hero, called "the ripper", is known to be a reasonable aggressive mafia player. To his delight, he finally was picked as mafia, but realizes soon afterward his now evolved towngame forces his scumgame to adapt too. He has the luck, that half the board he is playing on has probably heard of him experimenting with his playstyle (as his last experiment wasn't too succesful. Experiments are accepted when announced, when the play needed for them might be scummy. Rapid lynching for example.

For an aggressive player, playing scum isn't easy, you expose yourself way too easily, and it is hard to be honest as it. Although as long as you are in the offensive, you are save, but overaggressiveness might also put people on you early.

K, our hero isn't stupid, so he thinks "I've got to lurk,", as he heard that is a viable scum strategy: "but how I'm going to get away with it"?

"Experiments!" (?)

[danakillsu]

Interesting, mykonian. I assume from the "ripper" thing, you're talking about Jack. But that's just speculation. I don't really know that you could prove he's scum from those things.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Truth be told everyone seems to be missing the fact that I’m not really lighting up the world with this game.

Lay off Jack, he is definitely town.

If you were crippled with a migrane (as stated at 160 which was nine hours earlier) why did it only take you 6 minutes to respond to XScorp’s vote of Jack?

And if you are better why aren’t you providing content in 185?

I can think of three reasons why you are so insistant that Jack is Town. One involves you being a VI which I don’t think you are. One of the other two means my vote on you is well placed. The other means you should shut the hell up about it.

are we seriously going to play the "how can I get Jack to say more and more" game?

Ummm good luck with that.

What if the vig shots are wrong though?

JellyJig didn’t make any statement about the accuracy of the Vig shots. He simply stated (incorrectly based on the later Mod provided information) that if Town started with the Vig ability and Mafia can’t pass it to themselves that after 3 nights two of the three must be Town.

What does the accuracy of the Vig shots have anything to do with his statement? Statistically more Town will die to Vigs than scum based on the generally accepted 9-3 ratio.

Jack had unvoted, putting XScorpion at two votes. Your "pressure" vote put XScorpion back up to three, so you didn't really add more pressure at all, did you? What reactions were you hoping to get? What made THIS "XScorpion has three votes" more pressure-filled than the last "XScorpion has three votes"?

Players only have a single vote (normally) and can use it to apply pressure. Stef can’t control how other players act. The act of voting for someone increases the pressure on that person. X was at two votes and after Stef’s vote was at three. He increased pressure. Your attempt to paint it otherwise isn’t a logical argument. XScorp may not feel more pressure at 3 votes containing Stef compared to 3 votes containing Jack. But he does compared to 2 votes without either.

This is an obvious trap. Here's how the scum does it: You vote for someone and don't give a reason, opting instead to come up with it later if pressured. Then, if the townie you're voting for doesn't ask for those reasons, you go gung-ho saying "HAHA YOU MUST BE SCUM BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T ASK WHY I WAS VOTING YOU." Nice try bro.

And yet the trap fails miserably if the person is questioned about the reasonless vote. So how again is this trap effective and thus something that scum would use?

No. It has been discussed over and over again that the typical 12P game is biased towards scum with an average of 66% chance of scum to win. A general accepted suggestion is to add an additional player to the mini setups to help balance the game. While reviewers do balance the game further, the norm is still the typical 12p game which is inheritedly biased. Also, I said most. Anyway, this has something to do with the MAFIA game construct, not "Everyone's a critic" mafia and mafia balancing theory is not going to help.

Cite these discussion please. If the arguments are based on outcomes then player ability is tainting the results. Regardless, you acknowledge that your statement isn’t particularly applicable to an individual game. So again – why bring up a theoretical point?

Your vote was not OMGUS when it was cast. It became OMGUS when you left it on me for OMGUS reasons.

Um what? If a vote isn’t OMGUS when cast it doesn’t magically morph into OMGUS based on later discussion. This looks like serious stretching to justify your position.

[XScorpion]

And yet the trap fails miserably if the person is questioned about the reasonless vote. So how again is this trap effective and thus something that scum would use?

It doesn't fail, because the scum picks someone who is likely to do something scummy later, and then after doing so, uses that as an excuse to keep the vote there. Surely if you were scum, you wouldn't go after the most obviously pro-town person?

[MagnaofIllusion]

It doesn't fail, because the scum picks someone who is likely to do something scummy later, and then after doing so, uses that as an excuse to keep the vote there. Surely if you were scum, you wouldn't go after the most obviously pro-town person?

You are missing the point of my question.

1. Player A votes for Player B without reason.
2. Player B in their next post asks Player A for reasons.

It's hardly an effective trap. Player A may come up with more reasons later but by questioning the vote (which in the scenario I assume is out of RVS) Player B can't be attacked for not confronting their accuser.

And any player (or competant player, anyway) isn't going to cast a vote and then not look for further support. It's not solely a Scum play.

[mykonian]

Interesting, mykonian. I assume from the "ripper" thing, you're talking about Jack. But that's just speculation. I don't really know that you could prove he's scum from those things.

Oh, I very well can. I am absolutely waiting for Jack to give me a reason to lynch him. Like for example if his master plan isn't revealed soon enough or if it wasn't worth waiting for. (because in both cases, he's just lurking, which is not his town meta). The above is a viable explanation how scumjack would come to this plan. Now all I need is for Jack to underperform

[MagnaofIllusion]

If you are looking for recent Jack meta I already have this compiled due to [REDACTED] so I see no reason not to share it.

Quick and Dirty Mafia – he flipped Goon.
Gears of War Mafia– he won as a Serial Killer
Alternate Vote Mafia– he was engamed as an undisclosed Town role.

Assess as you wish.

[mykonian]

Damn you, Jack. Damn you.

[kunkstar7]

jelly jiggler has requested replacement. Searching for replacement now.

~In other news, all moved in!

[Haschel Cedricson]

Heads up: I've suddenly found myself without a placement for my student teaching, so my participation may be sporadic while I'm focused on getting this fixed.

[RedCoyote]

Then convince me, is that so much to ask? You aren't even trying here.

All I could do is point you back to my post 203. I started to organize something more specific, but the meat of it would still be the third and last paragraph in post 203. Stef wouldn't be a bad lynch either, so it's hard for me to tell you to abandon that vote. The reason I think dana is a better vote than Stef is simply because I think Stef seems more interested in scumhunting (and therefore more likely to be town). I'd refer back to post 147. Obviously I disagree with a lot of what he says (namely his scum read on me, but also the "pressure FoS" bit you pointed out), but, more importantly, he's playing offense and defense here. He's coming at different people. He's not afraid of spreading himself out. dana, on the other hand, couldn't be playing it more safe (or "relaxed" as he puts it; I'll get to that later in this post). Completely shut off to the rest of the game. Check out the exchange he had with HC. They go on and on about how he said you had good logic but seemed scummy. HC, over multiple posts, tries to get dana to open up, and, boy, dana does everything in his power to effectively shutdown HC's interrogations. They look to have eventually settled on a poor choice of words, but that may just be because HC has been away from the game for a bit.

To be even more blunt, there are three people I would feel okay having my vote on at the moment: dana, imaginality, and Stef, but very much in that order (and David is campaigning to bump Stef off the top three).

---

Yes, I do have an explanation for this. I am trying to change my playstyle some. I'm considered somewhat of a VI, and I think it's mostly just because I post too much, giving too many of my controversial opinions. So I'm trying to take a more relaxed approach to this game.

By all means, give us the controversial opinions. Throw safety out the window. dana, please understand that I'm not voting you because I want you to be scum, but that I think you are. If you're town, then I think I may be able to decipher that, but it's more difficult when you're "trying to take the relaxed approach". Maybe it doesn't suit you. Maybe it's just me. If I had to guess though, this is not you as a townie.

I "revoted" you because the mod did not have my vote in the votecount, and I didn't want to go see if I had already voted you, because I might as well just do it again.

I didn't notice this. If this was the case then I concede the point.

I said Stef's case was not too important to current events, because he was not backing it with his vote. What he thinks about someone who has no votes on him, and who he's not voting for, is not very important.

HC? But what difference does HC's vote make if he's asking about you? I don't understand what you're saying here, this sounds like you're just talking around the issue.

And I'm allowed to have townreads. I'm not the only one who's called Jack town.

It would be nice to know what brought it on, you know, so it doesn't just stick out like a sore thumb. "RC, you are still scum. btw, jack is town" is basically what you said. Why? You've said nothing about Jack all game, have you? And what difference does it make if other people have called Jack town? What have they got to do with you? I'm not coming at you because you called Jack town; I'm coming at you because it's not good enough to say, "I agree with XScorp's post and Jack is town l8r". If you're just going to piggyback on everyone else's opinions, then why don't we just lynch you and keep them around?

---

For an aggressive player, playing scum isn't easy, you expose yourself way too easily, and it is hard to be honest as it. Although as long as you are in the offensive, you are save, but overaggressiveness might also put people on you early.

K, our hero isn't stupid, so he thinks "I've got to lurk,", as he heard that is a viable scum strategy: "but how I'm going to get away with it"?

I am actually very concerned about Jack's limited presence so far as well, but I'm not ready to condemn him for it. I think I'll be able to make more of him as the game progresses, so he can sit in the middle for me right now.

---

What does the accuracy of the Vig shots have anything to do with his statement? Statistically more Town will die to Vigs than scum based on the generally accepted 9-3 ratio.

He was saying something else though, or I misunderstood his point. Though given what the Mod has told us, I think this discussion is a dead end. Do you want me to still go back and answer this?

[DavidParker]

Hey guys, I'm here now. (Much) Healthy(er).

You can choose to judge me all you want for those sporadic posts, but they were done just to keep from being replaced because I had every intent of catching up and providing input in this game. Monday I actually left work after 2 hours with a fever/migraines and I didn't eat for 2 days etc etc. It's now Thursday and I'm feeling considerably better. I posted a few times in between when I was bored of sleeping all day and couldn't sleep and was too uncomfortable from lying in bed for whatever reason, but I definitely couldn't force myself to catch up or think about this game.

Anyways, enough of the life story. Heh.

One thing that has stood out is a strong town vibe from Jack, however, that for me was all based on his initial post so I've definitely been biased from that. The fact he would come out and say the setup has 2 scum is a peculiar thing to say, something that a scum wouldn't want to inform the town on. As to how (or if he really does) know this information, I find somewhat irrelevent to me getting a town vibe. But the setup is somewhat important, so

@Jack: What makes you think there is only 2 scum?

Apart from that the initial scum list I made was just the impression of peoples random votes and the tone in them. Really, it's a weak form of scum-hunting, and usually ineffective, but it was my way of at least having some thoughts on players.

To me, RC's latest post goes against the scum vibe I had on him so a re-read of him is in order. (As well as a reread on the entire thread, since I'm not really up to date). Right now I'm leaning towards a mykonian lynch. Reasons to come!