Ladies Night -- Game Over

[UncertainKitten]

I'm going to say I am pretty much CERTAIN that at least one, and probably 2 of the "top three" are town. I'm also pretty certain we can ferret out which is which after one of them flips. I think Snow_Bunny is more likely the play, but the Apok wagon will at least help us find the NOT obvious scum.

[camn]

Camn - who's the scummiest in the middle tier of players?

I dont have time for an iso review right now, but off the top of my head? Sucrose. Maybe Uncertain Kitten given today's explosion. And that last post.

[Apokalyptika]

Town: chau/Snow White, Hoopla, Fenchurch, Ojanen, Sotty
Neutral: Sucrose, camn, DGB, cepi
Scum: UK, Snow_Bunny, Haylen

Also, I'm at L-2, so not quite "claim or die" yet, mkay?

My case on Haylen again: Does scummy things (day-talk weirdness, hypocrisy re. scumminess of not reading thread), tries to sweep them under the rug (obviously with daytalk thing, hasn't answered the question camn posed), makes a lot of fluff posts, and has not made any cases or given me any reason to find her town.

Preview edit: Hoopla makes a good point. My list is approx. in order of scumminess, so DGB/cepi would be where I would look (DGB's hopping onto Haylen then off with almost no reasoning = meh and cepi's doing a lot of blustering and not as much analysis to back it up as I'd like.)

P.S. I'll bet you anything you like that cepi's next post will say something like "You're setting up an OMGUS on me DIESCUM"

[RedCoyote]

UK, why do you have to be so cruel? If you scare someone away I'm not going to be happy.

---

Vote Count 2.5

• Apokalyptika

  (5) (cepi - DrippingGoofball -

  Ojanen

  - Hoopla - camn - Fenchurch)
  
  
  Snow_Bunny
  (2) (

  camn

  - UncertainKitten - Sotty7)
  
  
  Haylen
  (2) (Apokalyptika - Sucrose)
  
  
  camn
  (1) (Haylen -

  Snow_Bunny

  )
  
  
  UncertainKitten
  (1) (Snow_Bunny)
  
  
  Not Voting
  (2) (Snow White -

  Fenchurch

  - Ojanen)

With thirteen alive, it takes seven to lynch.

Current Deadline: Sept. 25th, 2010 at 10:30 AM (CST)

[camn]

not quite "claim or die" yet, mkay?

scum softclaim.

[Fenchurch]

VOTE: Apok

Unvote first, please.

I already did unvote - post 424.

So, Fenchurch, unless I'm misunderstanding you, you think that as scum I would say in this thread why the NK was performed, when there was no need whatsoever to even bring it up? Really?

Yes. You didn't need to bring it up, but you do need to look like you're scumhunting, so you have to talk about something. And you didn't say explicitly that you *knew* it was the reason, you just didn't seem to consider the alternatives. People make mistakes or freudians slips, these are one of the ways to identify mafia.

[Fenchurch]

Apokalyptika

(5) (cepi - DrippingGoofball - Ojanen - Hoopla - camn)

Also Ojanen is currently not voting - post 457.

You're right; these will be fixed.

[Sotty7]

Apok, why exactly do you not want Snow_Bunny lynched today?

[Haylen]

Apok, did you not read my post on Snow_Bunny? I'm pretty sure there were some opinions in there. Also, what question of camn's have I not answered? Was it the one in her last post, when I haven't even posted after yet?

I am posting what I think of 781 in my post.

[DrippingGoofball]

My head is hosting some conflicting ideas.

Haylen is still scum regarding the QT-mason bizniss.

camn is right, Apok is claim-stalling, ie, soft-claiming scum.

But I'm starting to get a meek/insecure vibe from Apok, which may be the source of the scummy impression.

[Snow White]

Okay girls. (haha no guise) Sorry for the delay my work shift was changed to 8-2,5-9 and then had a fire lecture 3-4. FML.
This is who i've played with before:
UncertainKitten(SWNII&Gorrad's FF Mafia)
Sotty7(Lets all be friends)
Haylen(Utopia mafia ABANDONED)
Hoopla(played in her Seaside mafia game&lets all be friends&nice and fun mafia -both these games am not proud of myself )
DGB (Kingdom Hearts Mafia)
Snow Bunny (Prof Guppy's Killer in Y town and Flash Mafia)

Observations:
Snow Bunny's play is identical to her play in Flash Mafia. From her introduction post, her forewarning of limited access to other players attacking her for it.
Haylen's abrashive play is nothing new to me. She can be a little whacky but thats a little endearing. In the Utopia mafia she manages to list the entire mafia by page five. Stroke of luck or she's a mind fricking genius. And for now, she's giving me a town read her explanation as to why she is the way she is appears sincere however my vote is limited and always subject to change.
Not sure how i feel about esurio. She's giving too much information imo. She has given quite a long post so she is interested in this game by her own admission but with a role from the outset of a townie which she admits she does not like, there is little correalation but it is the beginning of the day and i would just watch her closely. Also for note, she tries to buddy sotty7 who was in a game with her. Thereby creating reassurance and a hopeful delayer of her lynch. If not someone she can bring down with her.

I sympathise with Haylen my friend has Dyslexia but i have very little interest in it in this setting. Hoopla what was the point in probing Haylen on her personal inflictions?

Hoopla as scum, from what i feel i am too acquainted with atm is cold and detatched as scum. But i have no idea if she is the same as town. She is logical. And when she makes buddies you do feel exceedingly torn to believe her. She is inociously (right word? Overwhelmingly) convincing even when all logic is screaming at you there is something wrong. And all signs point to her being scum.

Apok is feigning ignorance something which i have tried and failed to do as scum. However those were only my own actions. I think what she may have been trying to do
was perhaps paint Hoopla in a dark light and have her hanged for the manner in which she inquired into Haylen's Dyslexia. Then as Hoopla says she is overjustifying her vote.

I agree with UK. I now have a headache and a bus to catch shortly and the capt jack and coke is neither numbing out my ipod music nor the headache.

Sucrose makes a good observation about Haylen not being scum. SEE: scum giving accurate information about themselves to the town. But as Haylen is very much a wildcard this can be argued but i like the point
Haylen=town read.

Speaking of BEGGING to be lynched...

esuriospiritus wrote:...I suck at being town too, but that's partially because I fucking LOATHE playing town....
....I will probably go for a stretch of three days without posting at least once throughout the duration of the game. ..
...You can tell how interested I am in a game by the length of my posts....

So.. we can expect you to lurk if you are town? yay. And if you ARE town, you will never get nightkilled because the scum LOVE townies like that. great.

I lol'd. ^^

esurio is giving me heepibidie jeebies. /not a good thing.

Need to catch my bus but on page six reads:
Town:Haylen, Snow Bunny.
Bad peoples: ESURIO, Apoka.

No vote because they are MY PRECIOUS!!
3-9 tomorrow. Should have more by then. Would not be against a esurio lynch but right now you all seem set on other people.

[Snow_Bunny]

UK, calm down. There's no need to get like that. It's just a game. Geez... Although I must admit, your reaction to my attack only strengthens my suspicious of you.

Haylen's defence at UK is also noted. Specially taking into account that none of her points brought to counter my points are facts rather than just her personal opinion. And, last time I checked, why would a town defend another town like this if they are not sure of the alignment?

I also agree that Apok is looking quite bad with the delayed claim.

Unvote, vote: Apok

. It's claiming time.

[Haylen]

Hehe. Hey, S_W, if you read that game and analyse it properly you'll see how I caught them all ^_^ Unfortunately, it's not something that works in all games, so I attack people primarily based on instinct in a lot of my games and in the majority of them I'm correct. On the subject of J-Fox in that game, he didn't give himself away like Budja and Tjoe did, but as his fiance I can read him like an open book. Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Back to camn-post.

[Haylen]

S_B.
I.
Am.
Psychic.

*snigger*

[DrippingGoofball]

Hey SnowWhite... esurio is a dead townie... you might want to revise that case...

[UncertainKitten]

@Apok: With more than 12 alive, the claim or die threshold becomes 2, at least according to Tar, and I see the logic.

@Snow_Bunny: You're derpiness is still showing. If you at all knew me you'd be well aware that my reaction signified exactly what it said on the tin. Your case was shit. I notice you don't even try to fix the points I effortlessly destroyed.

Die now.

S_W probably should fully catch up...

[Ojanen]

I also agree that Apok is looking quite bad with the delayed claim.

I think this argument is silly btw. L-1 is the standard claiming time. She never posted while she was on it, which was not for long.
I haven't looked through what was bothering me yet. Mostly because I'm on a terrible mood. Will try to get it done asap because the dynamics are so close to lynch.
@UK: maybe it's just because today is the black today but your

continued

fucking arrogant jerk schtick is annoying me in extreme amounts. You didn't destroy her points. You stated two things that were UNTRUE. They would have held water as a reason for calling SB's points bad IF THEY WERE TRUE.

@Ojanen: But my corrections of them still invalidate Snow_Bunny's bullshitery.

THIS WRONG. It's bullshit. In your language it's... well you can imagine that.
You're only generating general antipathy and clouding my ability to try and read you in a neutral way. Stop it.

That being said, I don't know why SB is voting the way she is. Kinda destroys the thought about her shutting down options.
Damn.
I'll go pour my sasdgrefvgdsz mood to something and hopefully come back today.

[UncertainKitten]

I fixed them. They still counter her terrible points.

You can keep asserting they don't but kindly, I'd like you to prove it. Actually, I'd prefer Snow_Bunny prove it. It's interesting you white knight for her, but I ascribe it merely to wanting to "knock me down a peg"

[Ojanen]

No, you know what? let's lay this to rest. The Paws behavior explains itself in the quotes, and you're REALLY FUCKING STUPID to try to paint it otherwise.

Oh, and then she ignores the fact that I addendumed by saying she was playing like SK in IA II

.

FURTHER, she absolutely ignores the fact a counterwagon was forming to hers.

So, her entire house of cards, built on the weakest foundations of fucktardery and dumbassery possible, quite simply falls to pieces in the face of actual facts.

Blue and green are your only actual arguments in the whole multipost rant.

Blue correction when I pointed out IA II you were talking about

Haylen

, not her:

...wait, really? Fuck, I got my wires crossed, you're right. In that case, I got one point wrong, but I'll also state that the only reliable knowledge I have of S_B's meta is her playing as scum in Umineko mafia. But, that said, it was indiscretionary of me to say she "plays like she always does", since I hardly have a measure of that.

YOU had said she plays like she always does. You had overstated. I don't know if you expect her to keep tabs of your meta on her or what about this is fucktardery.
Green correction when noted that the actual votes don't work as counterwagon:

As for the counterwagon logic, I think I got sloppy there. Basically, the way the Haylen wagon was building read as a serious effort to deflect from Snow_Bunny, since a lot of people were suspecting her, and I assumed more votes. The votechart didn't bear it out as strongly as I liked, though I also was including camn's prior Snow_Bunny vote. The Apok wagon I'm still trying to make sense of. My gut for some reason says she's town but we'll get a lot of information from her lynch, but I should probably look at the case before I get too far into it.
But, yeah, I think it was more attitudes I was reading as opposed to votes, and there was a slight indication in the votecount I ran with. Confirmation bias, etc.

This is a minuscule amount more legit but only because she didn't mention it in the case in the first place.
The actual counterwagon logic you yourself admit to being sloppy/confirmation biasy.

=>

I notice you don't even try to fix the points I effortlessly destroyed.
Die now.

ARGH.

I do have a problem with white knighting everyone sometimes but this is just annoyance. I am not defending her alignment, just accusations of godiestupid.
Which is basically just noise and counterproductive itself but etc.

[UncertainKitten]

Regardless, the mood at the time of the vote behavior still implies to me Haylen was a counterwagon to Snow_Bunny.

At any rate, at this point could you let S_B do her own work? I understand what you're saying, but sometimes the reaction of the player in question is helpful as well ^-^.

[Haylen]

What's pissing me off about this game is it needs more testosterone -_- Very rarely do I get on with girls.

So I'm gonna start with this.
The wagon on me is ridiculous. It's for stupid reasons. Yeh, I haven't posted a lot of content because ive been V/LA. The sudden changes of emotion? F-off, I'm dealing with it. So what if I'm an emotional player.

Also, posting content is genuinely painful for me. -.-

@ camn (opinion of 381) - Those scenarios are completely different. For a start, you yourself didn't read the role PM's ect and didn't know the scum could Day Talk. That's not scummy. Obviously missing huge cases against players is. So that's a really bad comparison you're trying to set me up with. By the way, I can see exactly what you're trying to set up. You want me to say 'Not reading the rules isn't scummy, but not reading content is.' Then when I say they are, you would have strawmanned the hell out of it. I can see right through you.

camn

This just shows that we should lynch you. If this is the truth, you are nothing but a town liability.

Funny that you've never mentioned that in the games we've played together when you were town. You know exactly what my town play is like, and it's pretty obvious that you're trying to set up a lynch in this statement. In fact, you've never even tried to policy lynch me before - so why start now? What's different about this game that wasn't in the others?

Maybe even a little too hoopla-haylen-partners long. I see I am not the only one.

Says this, but never follows it up, in fact it reaks of distancing because she calls Hoopla town for the rest of the game and just completely forgets that she said that. To add to the matter, she also said that others have said the same which suggests to me that she was just following the opinions of the town which is scummy because it shows a desire to keep on the towns good side so she isn't lynched.

The rest of the holes I leave for the town to see, as I am on my iPod, and can't type like I like!

Witholding information from the town, this looks like to me. That's scummy because a town aligned player would want the town to know everything that they know (unless they're a PR).

Also, FTR... Let me lay out the camn-hater playbook for you all:

Buddying.
Votehopping.
Policy Voting
Lurkerhunting.
Too attractive.

This is also scummy because now that she has giving away people accuse her of when she's town, she can do what the heck she likes as scum and get away with it. What makes me doubly suspicious is that I've witnessed her do these as scum in other games.

---off topic---

@haylen

This winds me up. It makes me twitchy. Can anyone guess WHY it makes me twitchy? Because there's no space between the @ symbol and the name.
----------------

But I want you to know that if you ARE scum, I

will

catch you. You

will

hang. And you

will

not manage to mislynch me.

This seems a bit over the top for a camn-town to say. Particularly if it's a threat. Town players shouldn't go round threatening to lynch town players without posting evidence first :/ camn hadn't said anything to combat UK's posts against her and then decides to threaten her without giving a good reason.

Also.. I suggest everyone ISO Paws right now... then tell me how that is indicative of newbie-TOWN play?

Tell me. Did or did not, Paws flip town? And she was also a newbie. Thus she was newb-town? Was I not right until I allowed myself to be pressured into viewing Paws a non-newbie? Tell me. Why am I not wrong about you?

Wiggle room?!
"Wiggle room" is your case?

Hypocritical. It's not like any of your cases have been better. In fact, you've barely posted any. This doesn't equal camn-town to me. Especially seeing as you seem to be quite content in following DGB round like a sheep. Try writing your own opinions. Not doing so is scummy because it shows again that you're keeping information from the town.

Haylen, OTOH, = town.
She would buddy me as scum.

WIFOM. How can you be sure of this if you have never played against me with me as scum? As I recall I've always been VT in our games. (Correct me if I'm wrong btw). Also, what does OTOH mean. I'm actually more likely to buddy as town as demonstrated in my first game on site (with Talitha, who was scum), with ZachRulez in Patricks Newbie Game not sure of the number, but Zach was scum there too. I buddied you back in C3t1ns where you were SK. If you want more examples I'm sure I could provide them. It's a town tactic of mine, now I've worked out that the people who buddy me and cause me to buddy back are scum. Cause that's what I do, I buddy back if someone's buddying me, then I try to get them lynched. This makes me a bit of an ass in my opinion, but in the majority of cases where I've done it, I've been correct. Hmm...I'm gonna go ask Zach if he's still pissed off about that...apparently the memory is annoying which makes me giggle especially since it was my first town victory.

In order to find scum, you have to identify things that people do or say when they are scum.. that they DON'T do or say as town!

And yet there is an inconsistancy with what camn says here:

She will then top it off with a meta-argument of what I WOULD HAVE done as town in other games, and conclude that I am scum.

In that same post camn implies that meta=crap case and yet is advocating it in the first quote. This is scummy because a) it looks like teaching a bad method that camn doesn't believe herself works, b) it's completely backtracking on what she had previously said.

She says I'm scum and then gives no reason to back it up AGAIN. I'm beginning to see a pattern here: I don't believe that at any point in this game that camn will give any particularly strong reasons for voting somebody unless it's a policy lynch.

Your thoughts on Haylen? Who almost certainly can daytalk?

Don't like this. It's sowing the seeds again with DGB's analysis and opinions of me.

In her next post, she does a complete turn around. She has mentioned that she is certain that I'm scum and then votes for Apok. I've noticed that she seems to back off me whenever I'm close to being lynched. This indicates to me that she is attempting to get me to lylo so she can finally make some sort of case on me there, everyone will believe her cause she's influencial. Then I'll get lynched and we'll lose. -_-

Oooh, Yay! Time for some meta. Mine this time.

Like Apok told you to take it down a notch.

You know full well from past experience that there are very few people on site who I will listen to if they request I do anything. Having only played with Apok once and quite briefly, I might add, she is not one of them.

In that same post, If camn really wants to know why my behaviour changed so drastically. Here you go: That day, I received a PM from Flay basically calling me an attention seeking brat. That pissed me off quite a bit. I raged for a while, sending a well worded PM back. Then I got thinking, what if I really did seem like an attention seeker when I blow up in games. What if my emotions are what really cause me to be a bad player, because I can't let go of thing once I start raging.

Would you like to contest this?

Wow.
THat is, without exception, exactly my scumlist right now.
Almost in that exact order, too. With cepi where I am.

Here, have another example of camn not thinking for herself.

---------------

Just as an add on, Ojanen is given me tingly feelings. I'm not sure whether this is a good or bad thing yet, but I'm going to keep my eyes peeled.

[Apokalyptika]

Claim: Vigilante

(breadcrumbed in post 428)

I don't want Snow_Bunny lynched today because I think she is much less scummy than Haylen.

That being said, I appreciate the case on camn.

Gonna nap for a couple of hours.

[UncertainKitten]

Interesting, what with one death and all.

Well, just to make it clear, if there is a vig to counterclaim

DO NOT DO SO!

Proper procedure is to vig the falseclaimer. I figure you'd know that, but it's better to be safe than sorry.

[Ojanen]

I got the composed vibe from Apok during the late wagon that she had a claim in her sleeve.
Apok, who did you target last night?
I think the claim is either town or then very shortlived - make sure that noone blocks her tonight and we'll know for certain.
We should lynch someone else.

The reason that I unvoted was that I had trouble seeing scumbuddies from the shape of the late wagon combined with the attacks yesterday. Also from the overall stances of the non-wagoners. But I wanted to check because it's a wide thing to remember accurately.
No, this is definitevely not me being naive about bussing - there are some specific things most often present on a scumlynch. I'll disclose/elaborate if I get under a lot of fire but otherwise rather not in the middle of this game unless I use the tells.

Too exhausted to revise my gameview now.

[Ojanen]

Oh wait. Wow.
There's something....
My reads are all wrong, I think.
I think Apok, SB and Haylen are all town. camn is scum. Wow.

vote: camn

Yes, I'm serious.
I will explain some of this tomorrow.