Ladies Night -- Game Over

[Sotty7]

UNVOTE: Snow White
VOTE: Snow Bunny

I can wait on Snow White to make her entrance post and the two Snow's are almost level pegging for me and both are above Apok.

[Snow_Bunny]

Question

: Were you

for

or

against

a Paws lynch?

I was not against it, but I'd rather have waited a bit more. The way it grew so fast was something I didn't like, and I'd have rather waited for the replacement than lynching her. I wanted to wait for the replacement, because Paws' trolling was on either side of alignment (that is, it felt more like a policy wagon than anything else. And I dislike policy wagons.)

Snow, why did you wait to put your vote on camn then? It just feels really reactive to me.

I wanted to wait before I cast my vote again. It seemed, however, that nothing changed, and thus why I put my vote there again.

Ugh, I suck at defending myself, and that's not excuse. However, I'm impressed how many of you have jumped to my wagon without apparent reasons (unless, of course, "reads scummy" is the new trend I just missed.) For some reason, I'm still behind camn's vote. I feel there's too much talk and little good in her posts. I don't see the reasons of Apok's wagon, and the Haylen wagon isn't appealing.

[Hoopla]

PS. Hoopla. Are you scum this game? Cause every game i replace into, your scum. This is a most troubling re-occurance...

Hey snow, you'll be pleased to know this trend has snapped. Feel free to jump on the Snow Bunny or Apokalyptika wagons - they're both filling up fast.

[Apokalyptika]

The fact that esurio was NK'd implies that she was along the right track in some way, which implicates chau to some degree.

Apok, there are many other potential reasons for a night-kill. What makes you think this is the most likely explanation for esurio's?

Very strange question, considering I never said that it was the most likely explanation; if you look later in the very same post, I said that I didn't find chau scummy, and that it wasn't a statement of suspicion so much as throwing thoughts out there.

Snow, I'm not a huge fan of, and her tunneling on camn isn't great, but I still feel my Haylen vote is the place to be.

Do you think Snow_Bunny's tunnelling is a scumtell? Towntell? Neither?

I think it's about 35:65 between nulltell and scumtell. Given that the initial vote was a policy vote, and further justifications were "didn't like her reaction" and now "too much talk and too little good", whatever that means...the two most likely possibilities are either it's just tunneling, which would be a nulltell, or it's a safe noncommittal place for scum to rest in until a wagon builds up enough steam to vote on.

Hm...actually, now that I've gone and written that out, Snow_Bunny really doesn't look too great.

camn's Post 381 is something I initially overlooked, and it's an excellent point. I note Haylen hasn't responded to it...Haylen, thoughts?

As regards my meta-searching: I've never actively tried to find meta in players before, and I did a subpar job. I'm well aware that this isn't an excuse, but it is an explanation.

cepi, I didn't comment on the other things you said were scummy about my first post because I'd already elaborated on them before.

[cepi]

cepi, I didn't comment on the other things you said were scummy about my first post because I'd already elaborated on them before.

Why do I feel that you arent really trying to convince me you are town?

You know what? Id really like a scumlist from you, Bunny and Haylen. In their following posts. If you are town, do it asap.

[Fenchurch]

Snow_Bunny, I don't think you've posted a list of reads at all, and you've sat on your camn vote throughout the whole game. You've said you aren't taken by the cases on Apok or Haylen, and criticise them for being based mainly on vibes ("reads scummy"), but as far as I can see, your camn-vote is based largely on vibes. How confident are you about camn? Do you have an opinion on anyone else in the game?

[cepi]

Ugh, I suck at defending myself, and that's not excuse. However, I'm impressed how many of you have jumped to my wagon without apparent reasons (unless, of course, "reads scummy" is the new trend I just missed.) For some reason, I'm still behind camn's vote. I feel there's too much talk and little good in her posts. I don't see the reasons of Apok's wagon, and the Haylen wagon isn't appealing.

What are these reasons you dont see on the Apok wagon? Why are they bad?

Why the Haylen wagon isnt appealing?

Also, yeah, scumlist plz.

[Fenchurch]

Apok, there are many other potential reasons for a night-kill. What makes you think this is the most likely explanation for esurio's?

Very strange question, considering I never said that it was the most likely explanation; if you look later in the very same post, I said that I didn't find chau scummy, and that it wasn't a statement of suspicion so much as throwing thoughts out there.

Okay, so the full quote is:

So looking at esurio's suspicions, the people she was on the whole day were myself, Sotty, and chau. In her Paws-related iso post, she said that either Sotty or I might be Paws' scumbuddy. However, she also said that if Paws flipped scum, chau looked more town to her, and that that was the best thing that she had to say about her. The fact that

esurio was NK'd implies that she was along the right track in some way

, which implicates chau to some degree. I don't see her as scummy, though, so I'm not sure how much validity there is; just putting it out there.

You give a few sentences of discussing esurio's suspicions, and the bolded part is what I was focussing on, which to me suggested you thought this was the most likely reason for the night-kill. Is this not the case?

[Hoopla]

Hm...actually, now that I've gone and written that out, Snow_Bunny really doesn't look too great.

Looks like Apok is greasing up the wheels in preparation for a vote switch - that's literally what this is, though. She thinks it will look bad if she bundles on to her main rival out of the blue, so she posts this as a way to soften the blow, as if this is a natural progression. This post shows she's worried about her appearance to the town, and is a meek way to open up an excuse to vote Snow Bunny if she needs it later.

I was curious to see who would be the first to show signs of 'her vs. me' - and with SB still plugging away at camn, it makes Apok look quite bad.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Apokalyptika

[RedCoyote]

Vote Count 2.4

• Apokalyptika

  (4) (cepi - DrippingGoofball - Ojanen - Hoopla)
  
  
  Snow_Bunny
  (3) (

  Hoopla

  - camn - UncertainKitten - Sotty7)
  
  
  Haylen
  (2) (Apokalyptika - Sucrose -

  Fenchurch

  )
  
  
  camn
  (2) (Haylen - Snow_Bunny)
  
  
  Snow White
  (0) (

  Sotty7

  )
  
  
  Not Voting
  (2) (Snow White - Fenchurch)

With thirteen alive, it takes seven to lynch.

Current Deadline: Sept. 25th, 2010 at 10:30 AM (CST)

[camn]

God Hoopla is town.

@Snow bunny:
1) it would be very good if you were to honor cepi's request.
2) your arguments against me are so incredibly thin I am amazed you are actually typing them.
3) I am feeling like giving you a chance..... so I will say this: IF YOU ARE TOWN...then please.. I am begging you........ add something to this game. Please. You are not helping us (the town) in any way. So please... turn it around while you still can. If you are town, start being pro-town. Or I will see you lynched.

[Ojanen]

Yeah, that Hoops posts shines town.
And it's absolutely true. SB is sticking to an unpopular (and bad) vote and opting to reduce mobility on jumping to either of the 2 rival wagons.
Apok otoh is egging on both other wagons. Softening to a scummy stance on SB, and echoing stuff on Haylen.

camn's Post 381 is something I initially overlooked, and it's an excellent point. I note Haylen hasn't responded to it...Haylen, thoughts?

The 3 points give me creeps. Haylen hasn't posted since camn asked except for this

Dont hammer me until i've posted properly. I will be pissed.

so the function of the reminder is simply to make Haylen look worse.

As regards my meta-searching: I've never actively tried to find meta in players before, and I did a subpar job. I'm well aware that this isn't an excuse, but it is an explanation.

You must have had a reason to discarding those games since you must have seen the descriptions of those games first. I asked to be able to read you and I'd still like to know.

Apok wagon is where it's at, girls. Chop chop.

[camn]

I, for one, am not opposed to gratuitous vote-hopping.

UNVOTE

VOTE: Apokalyptika

You know why.

DGB, Are you here yet? I need your opinion on Apokalyptika. On first read, I thought her jumping in on Hoopla was pretty scummy, but on second read I thought Hoopla WAS pretty scummy. But I do have a tingle that one of them is scum.

Turns out Hoopla is town.

[Snow_Bunny]

Snow_Bunny, I don't think you've posted a list of reads at all, and you've sat on your camn vote throughout the whole game. You've said you aren't taken by the cases on Apok or Haylen, and criticise them for being based mainly on vibes ("reads scummy"), but as far as I can see, your camn-vote is based largely on vibes. How confident are you about camn? Do you have an opinion on anyone else in the game?

No, I'm not criticizing Apok's case. I'm saying I don't get it. This means, I have to read again and see what's all about. The thing on the vibes is on me. Many of you have jumped to my wagon on that excuse. And about Haylen's wagon, I just don't see her as scum.

And I have opinions on other players (well, probably I haven't stated them, but I've been really busy and the lack of Internet at home is problematic.) DGB, I'm not too fond of, but I remember she usually plays like this, and thus is giving me town read.

Apok... Although I haven't read still all the way back to when her wagon starts to build (and thus, I'm still not sure of her case), I have seen the last post in this page, and I must say that they really make her look bad. The things about jumping on the other wagons to save her skin doesn't look good. There's something I don't like about Hoopla, maybe that last post when she suggested SW to jump to any wagon.

So, my scumlist would go as follow right now:
camn
Apok
And UK. Why UK? Well, I've been reading her posts again, and there's something I don't like. First, UK gives me the impression of opportunity jumping on Paws' wagon, and then now on mine. Back on D1, she says twice that she prefers a replacement than a lynch, yet she doesn't change her vote:

I'm slightly opposed to lynching before replacement, but not a whole lot really. I guess I'd like to get more information from that player slot. If they are town, the replacement might save themselves. If they are scum, they might leave behind connections that can be used. Paws has given us absolutely nothing in either direction.

esurio brings up a good point I overlooked. I am now officially completely neutral on the Paws thing. I think that a replacement might provide more information, but I'm not really opposed to her lynch whatsoever.

So, she rather lynch for the sake of lynching than waiting for the replacement? Something's not good in there. Then a lame excuse follows and a hollow promise of looking into it later. This is, washing the blood away from her hands:

Well, it appears my early prediction was right about the Paws wagon. Unfortunately I let myself get swept into it nonetheless. At some point I'll take a look at the motivations on the wagon and see who had the most scum intent in lynching the useless one.

Then, look at this:

Off wagon is Sucrose and possibly Snow_Bunny. I don't have a good bead on Snow_Bunny, to be honest, since as I remember she tends to play...um...like this.

I should probably cross reference Umineko mafia and this game.

To be fair, I also have to review Sucrose a bit, but I'm not entirely sure she's acting as dumb as she was trying to lead me to believe, and the names out of a hat trick she pulled earlier was scummy no matter how much potential stupidity could explain it.

Hmm...I think I want a votecount on this page to check a trend. If it exists I think I'll be brought around to the Snow_Bunny wagon.

There are 6 post between those two, and in none of them she mentions me again. She feels I usually play like this, then suddenly, out of nothing, I'm the correct wagon. Hmmm...

Finally, the sudden shift over camn's read smells like an early distancing between the two of them.

Wow, to be honest, this is better than camn's.

Unvote, vote: UK

An UK flip would be better than a camn flip.

[UncertainKitten]

Snow_bunny's "case" is a bunch of lulz I really don't feel like answering since it ignores about a bajillion things and is just flailing.

I mean, seriously, look at how much fucking reinterpretation she does that is FLAT NOT TRUE.

OMG, reading it closer I'm actually getting PISSED OFF at how fucking illogical it is. If you think that something THAT FUCKING STUPID will get me lynched, you can go die, Snow_Bunny.

[UncertainKitten]

No, you know what? let's lay this to rest. The Paws behavior explains itself in the quotes, and you're REALLY FUCKING STUPID to try to paint it otherwise.

Oh, and then she ignores the fact that I addendumed by saying she was playing like SK in IA II. FURTHER, she absolutely ignores the fact a counterwagon was forming to hers.

So, her entire house of cards, built on the weakest foundations of fucktardery and dumbassery possible, quite simply falls to pieces in the face of actual facts.

Please, Snow_Bunny, play THIS game, not the bullshit one you've made up in your silly, insignificant, absolutely miniscule mind, that I am amazed has enough intelligence to breathe, if you post SHIT like that.

[UncertainKitten]

Oh, right, the "sudden shift" that actually does cite a post that changed my read. Yep, keep making things up please.

[Ojanen]

UK - out of curiosity more than anything since I've understood you get hyper as either alignment: is there an element of schtick in you rhetorics or are you genuinely screaming this much at the screen? (third option would be that you're a pirate.) I have much difficulty reading your character.
I have a hard time deciphering where the blow up came here from because the references are vague but

Oh, and then she ignores the fact that I addendumed by saying she was playing like SK in IA II. FURTHER, she absolutely ignores the fact a counterwagon was forming to hers.

I don't really understand. You said Haylen was playing like SK in IA II, what's the relation to the SB read?
In this post 365 is the handy votechart from Fenchurch, which shows that when Haylen got her 2 sticking votes SB only had 1 at the casting of either of them - why was Haylen a counterwagon, why not to Apok etc?

I'm not saying her case is brilliant but I'm trying to see how you find it THE ULTIMATE FUCKTARDERY AND SB SHOULD GO FUCKING DIIIIE RIGHT NOW FOR THIS RAPE OF ALL THAT IS GOOD IN THE WORLD.

[UncertainKitten]

...wait, really? Fuck, I got my wires crossed, you're right. In that case, I got one point wrong, but I'll also state that the only reliable knowledge I have of S_B's meta is her playing as scum in Umineko mafia. But, that said, it was indiscretionary of me to say she "plays like she always does", since I hardly have a measure of that.

And let me put it this way. I was shaking as I typed that, I was so mad. I got over it fairly quickly but I mean, DAMN, that made my brain hurt with his stupid.

As for the counterwagon logic, I think I got sloppy there. Basically, the way the Haylen wagon was building read as a serious effort to deflect from Snow_Bunny, since a lot of people were suspecting her, and I assumed more votes. The votechart didn't bear it out as strongly as I liked, though I also was including camn's prior Snow_Bunny vote. The Apok wagon I'm still trying to make sense of. My gut for some reason says she's town but we'll get a lot of information from her lynch, but I should probably look at the case before I get too far into it.

But, yeah, I think it was more attitudes I was reading as opposed to votes, and there was a slight indication in the votecount I ran with. Confirmation bias, etc.

[UncertainKitten]

All that said, Snow_bunny still has it way the fuck wrong.

[Fenchurch]

Please, Snow_Bunny, play THIS game, not the bullshit one you've made up in your silly, insignificant, absolutely miniscule mind, that I am amazed has enough intelligence to breathe, if you post SHIT like that.

Wow, this is way over the line. No one expects you to agree with cases raised against you, but if you're that angry then take a while to cool off rather than rage-posting with ad hom attacks.

Snow_Bunny, I hope you don't get put off, I thought your points were fair, no weaker than most others at this stage in the game.

I'm currently waiting to hear from Apok in response to cepi's and my post.

[UncertainKitten]

It's not ad hom if it's true.

[Sotty7]

I pretty much agree with the crux of Snow's argument against UK. The flip flopping between reads is a big thing that stuck out for me when I re-read her and her involvement on the Paws wagon. UK's reaction is pretty much what I would expect from her. But it doesn't stop her from being any less scummy.

ITT Haylen is lurking.

Mod, can we get a prod please?

[Apokalyptika]

Null---UK---Snow_Bunny-----------------------------Haylen-----Scum

I don't like UK's overreaction to Snow's case. I realize that she is very emotional, but in my opinion there's a point where it becomes scummy regardless of any meta. Also, compared to the chumminess earlier in D1, it's odd in a non-town way. And just so nobody can misinterpret me, I am not trying to instigate a wagon on UK.

Also, I'm about 99.99% sure that at least one person voting me is scum. Trouble is, I have neutral or town reads on all of them. Clearly some reevaluating is necessary on my part.

Hoopla, let me make it clear that I'm not trying to get Snow_Bunny lynched. Right now, I don't want to see her lynched. I wouldn't be heartbroken if it happened, but I'd much prefer Haylen. The thing is, I didn't see before why people were so eager to jump all over her, and writing it out made it clearer in my mind. Similarly, Fenchurch, I said it was a possibility. Maybe esurio was killed because she had good scumreads. Maybe she was killed because someone wanted to frame her scumreads. Maybe she was killed for some completely different reason, I don't know. I said a lot of stuff like "implies" and "to a certain degree" precisely because I wasn't sure. I'm sure someone will come along and say "OMG VAGUE STATEMENTS YOU'RE SCUM" now, but I never meant to state that I thought that was the most likely reason.

[Fenchurch]

Null---UK---Snow_Bunny-----------------------------Haylen-----Scum

Is this your top suspects, or just comments on the recent cases? Is there anyone besides Haylen that you do think is scum?

I'm torn. On the one hand, this doesn't look good for Snow_Bunny.

Apok... Although I haven't read still all the way back to when her wagon starts to build (and thus, I'm still not sure of her case), I have seen the last post in this page, and I must say that they really make her look bad. The things about jumping on the other wagons to save her skin doesn't look good. There's something I don't like about Hoopla, maybe that last post when she suggested SW to jump to any wagon.

So, my scumlist would go as follow right now:
camn
Apok
And UK.

I'd say there's slight exaggeration in the accusation of wagon hopping, an (irrelevant?) dig at Hoopla, and then Apok pops up on her scumlist for the first time.

But on the other hand, when I iso'd Snow_Bunny the other day, I found her to read mostly townie.

And Apok's recent post is full of non-commital... she doesn't want to see SB lynched, but doesn't mind too much if she is. She thinks UK's reaction is non-town, but doesn't want to instigate a wagon on her.

Also, my feeling on the esurio-NK-speculation is that Apok was scum letting on that she knew more about the kill motivation than she should know. I don't find the backtracking now to be believable.

I think Apok's is the stronger case.

VOTE: Apok

Unvote first, please.

And that puts her at L-1. If anyone is thinking of casting the hammer, I'd like to hear from Haylen and Snow_White first, and get a claim from Apok (but that only if the hammer is imminent).